broncobill86, Your bio sez that your a fan of the 454's. Take a look at the LSI PUMA 92 in 454Casull.(i have one) Look at the threads ref. Big Bore Levers in 92's. I've had mine only for a short while but "love it so far". The above thread has alot of good info by some knowledgeable people. Good Shootin'---pruhdlr P.S. I just moved to Fla. from Maine where i was a unregistered Maine Guide.

Hi Bill, you might want to consider a third choice:
http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm
http://www.legacysports.com/product/specs/puma.htm
http://budsgunshop.com/Store/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_372/products_id/13309
http://budsgunshop.com/Store/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_372/products_id/13312
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=16179078
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=16326098
Same power as a 45/70 but more compact handier package, same ammo as your revolver, available in stainless steel at a great price.

I am looking at the Marlin guide gun. I have the choice of a 450 or 45-70 for the same price. I think I might have seen this comparison a while back but I cant find it. Perhaps not?! I reload so ammo price isnt a problem unless 450 brass is that more expensive.
A bit of background: I am planning a Maine bear hunt next fall and I would like to carry a backup rifle. I plan to use my 454 Casull revolver as my primary hunting tool. I like the guide gun because its short and built like a tank. Very attractive aspects for a brush gun.

How do these cartridges compare?

Hi Bill, you might want to consider a third choice:
[Legacy .454 Carbine]
...
Same power as a 45/70 but more compact handier package, same ammo as your revolver, available in stainless steel at a great price.

Ganjiro -

Sorry, but the .454 in a 20" barrel doesn't even come close to what a .45-70 or 450 will do. If you go back and look at the first article you referenced, none of the 350g or 360g loads reach 1800fps, even when chrono'd in a 24" barrel. From a .45-70, bullets of this weight will easily reach a chrono'd 2200fps.

Not putting the .454 down, as it is a nifty little package. But a .45-70 its not.

CoyoteHunter: You do bring up some valid points though I never did compare the 454 to the 450 Marlin, and the 454 is much more powerful than standard factory 45/70 loads. Now if you meant the 45/70+P loads from Garrett or hot handloads then you are absolutely correct. Original poster was looking for a back up rifle for his 454 Casull revolver, and what better than a handy carbine that shoots the same ammo as your sidearm, but at substantially better ballestics from a 20" barrel. As you state it is a nifty little package which makes a great back up. The old west cowboys knew what they were doing carrying single type of ammo for both longarm and sidearm. I stand by my recommendation.



Ganjiro -

Sorry, but the .454 in a 20" barrel doesn't even come close to what a .45-70 or 450 will do. If you go back and look at the first article you referenced, none of the 350g or 360g loads reach 1800fps, even when chrono'd in a 24" barrel. From a .45-70, bullets of this weight will easily reach a chrono'd 2200fps.

Not putting the .454 down, as it is a nifty little package. But a .45-70 its not.

Ganjiro -

While you didn't compare the two directly, you did point to the Paco Kelly article, and Paco compared the two very directly.

Quotes from Paco:
Would you like a 45-70 in a light, easy to carry carbine lever gun? Say six pounds...a working gun...a truck gun...a gun which is extremely versatile, unlike the 45-70? ...So what is this light, compact, and powerful, wonder lever action?

It is the Legacy 92 chambered for the Freedom Arms 454 ...

Overall this is a fine little carbine...it uses a cartridge that uses 30 grains of powder and under, can give on the low side power, or the power of a well handloaded 45-70 from a modern rifle....

As much as I like Paco, I think he got a bit carried away with that last statement...

If you review my previous post you'll see I never did compare the 454 to the 450 Marlin even indirectly. I think you also misunderstood Paco's statement. He was never comparing the 454 to modern full power 45/70 loads. Notice he says: "can give on the LOW side power, or the power of a WELL handloaded 45-70 from a modern rifle". I agree with Paco's comments 100%. Notice he did NOT say "can give the power of HOT handloaded, or PLUS-P handloaded...". Anyone who knows leverguns like Paco knows leverguns would ever make that kind of claim. Again, I think you just misunderstood Paco's statement, but no harm done.

Ganjiro -

While you didn't compare the two directly, you did point to the Paco Kelly article, and Paco compared the two very directly.

Quotes from Paco:


As much as I like Paco, I think he got a bit carried away with that last statement...

Ganjiro-I have a .454 and love it to death,I also would like to have a Puma Carbine to go with it.But having said that,the .454 Puma is not in my opinion way more powerful than the factory 45-70 loads.Larry Weishuhm top whitetail guns and loads was the .454(pistol)45-70 Guide Gun and the .06.
With factory 300 grain Winchester Partition Gold ammo in the 45-70 Guide Gun it Chron'ed at 1826 fps.Most of the loads I see for the Puma are handloads in the 2,000 fps range.If you take a .458 Factory Partition Gold at 1826 fps and compare it to a .452 Factory loaded Buffalo Bore 300 Unicore(I picked it because I think it is the best Factory loaded bullet in the .454 in 300 grain),I doubt that any game animal is going to notice any difference between the two Factory loads if shot at the distance both calibers were intended for.There is nothing around the .454 can kill with factory ammo the 45-70 can't with the lower end factory ammo like the great 300 grain Partiton Gold.Way more powerful?I think not.

I chose the 300 Unicore because I believe it is a better bullet than Cor-bons 300 JFN from experience.I don't know what Buffalo Bores 300 grain .454 Chrono's out of a Puma,but I would think maybe 150 fps more than the Factory 45-70 Winchester in a 18.5 inch barrel and in my mind that does not make it WAY more powerful out of a 20 inch barrel and a smaller diameter bullet.Now if you handload either,well the 45-70 is about the same in reversal,2300 fps for a 300 grain bullet with the .454 at maybe 2100 fps.

Not worth arguing about as both will kill anything you want if a good premium bullet is used,know animal is going to know the difference.Dead is Dead.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

Ganjiro -

When Paco qualifies his statement about "the power of a well handloaded 45-70 ", he does so in two ways.

First, he uses the word "or" to contrast it to "the low side power".

Second, he uses the phrase "from a modern rifle....", indicating that he is not talking about Trapdoor-level loads.

Gentlemen -

I've split these posts from the original thread "45-70 or .450 Marlin, Which One?" because it was drifting off the subject matter. You may continue your debate over the merits of the 45-70 and the .454 Casull in this thread.

Thanks for your most interesting posts.

kdub
Moderator

With all do respect,That's what I meant by over Moderated.More like a Buisness than a freindly chat about firearms and your personal experiences.Yes it stray's from time to time,but it all go's together in the whole picture.

Freadom of thought that doesn't hurt knowone and pertains to the subject should be tolerated to those that moderate.It's all in knowledge gained from those that know with minor side trips.I personally get lost in the topic's I posted in the way it is.

Only my opinion from experience.Old man Jayco.

logcutter: I'm sorry but I never stated 454 was WAY more powerful. If you look at my original post it states "same power as 45/70" (as in ballpark). In my second post I state "the 454 is much more powerful than standard factory 45/70 loads" I stand by both these statements.
454 Casull
Factory Buffalo Bore 360 LFN x 1785 fps = 2548 fpe
Handload Freedom Arms 260 JSP x 2210 fps = 2820 fpe
45/70
Factory Winchester 300 SPG x 1880 fps = 2355 fpe
Your gun Winchester 300 SPG x 1835 fps = 2244 fpe
Maybe not WAY more, but I consider that much more power though still in the same ballpark. I guess it depends on your point of view.

Ganjiro-... the .454 Puma is not in my opinion way more powerful than the factory 45-70 loads. With factory 300 grain Winchester Partition Gold ammo in the 45-70 Guide Gun it Chron'ed at 1826 fps.Most of the loads I see for the Puma are handloads in the 2,000 fps range. There is nothing around the .454 can kill with factory ammo the 45-70 can't with the lower end factory ammo like the great 300 grain Partiton Gold.Way more powerful? I think not....
Not worth arguing about as both will kill anything you want if a good premium bullet is used,know animal is going to know the difference.Dead is Dead.

Just my opinion.Jayco.

I don't see it as argument, I see it as healthy debate. 8-)
I agree with your following comment 100% "both will kill anything you want if a good premium bullet is used, no animal is going to know the difference. Dead is Dead." What I was saying from my very first post is that this cartridge from a Puma 92 rifle would make the perfect backup gun for the Freedom Arms 454 Revolver, something the original poster was looking for, and asking for opinions on. Thank you for your reply, many good points.

Hi Coyote Hunter, I guess we are interpreting what Paco Kelly is saying in his article differently. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make here but I still agree with Paco 100%,
the 454 Casull from a rifle can be loaded to match 45/70 loads, from low side power (level 1) loads, "or" well loaded (low end level 2) handloads, which of course you'd never want to shoot from any level 1 rated firearm like the Trapdoor Springfields. I think what Paco is saying is clear as day. If he meant maximum hot level 2 "Elephant" loads I think he would have stated that. 45/70 loads are not limited to two kinds- "low", and "well", and i'm sure Paco Kelly is fully aware of this fact.

Ganjiro -

When Paco qualifies his statement about "the power of a well handloaded 45-70 ", he does so in two ways.

First, he uses the word "or" to contrast it to "the low side power".

Second, he uses the phrase "from a modern rifle....", indicating that he is not talking about Trapdoor-level loads.

Ganjiro-I totally agree.If they had came out with the Puma prior to my getting the 45-70,I would have bought it just because I already have a .454 Pistol.Both the carbines have a limitation on range,I would take my .300 Mag if I thought I was going to be shooting over 150 yards.Why ask more of a caliber to do what another can do easily?

Best of luck.Jayco.

Hi Jayco,
I already own a Marlin 94 in 44 mag, and a revolver in same so a 454 though more powerful would be IMO redundant for myself, but a 45/70 would be a positive step up with more power potential. As you say a bolt gun in 30 caliber (Mine a 30/06)is hard to beat when you want to reach out, and touch someone (something). My Elk hunting buddies in McCall prefered these 2 rounds (300 mag, 30/06). I did my share of log cutting in central Idaho though mostly Tamaracks for firewood out toward Yellowpine, and Burgdorf. That was over 20 years ago, gotta get back oneday.

Best of luck to you also, Ganjiro

Ganjiro-I totally agree.If they had came out with the Puma prior to my getting the 45-70,I would have bought it just because I already have a .454 Pistol.Both the carbines have a limitation on range,I would take my .300 Mag if I thought I was going to be shooting over 150 yards.Why ask more of a caliber to do what another can do easily?

Best of luck.Jayco.