Hi Everyone,

I just found the forum a couple of days ago and was lead here. I just bought a nib 1894p, shot it about 40 times, and my shoulder is a little sore. :rolleyes: On the way home to N E Texas from Austin where I bought it, I was able to pick up a lyman peep sight for it. So my question is what kind of loads to try loading for it. What is a reasonable accuracy to expect out of it. I plan to shoot silhouettes with it, and if I can find a deer spot by next fall, some hunting. I'm going to be competing against some pretty good shooters, and would like all the inside info I can get. I know I will get plenty of advice from them, but the shoot is a ways off, and I would not mind a head start.
I'm also in the market for a 1894c .357 in some form or other. Whether I get a longer barrel or not depends on how I can handle the 1894p. Time will tell on my 60 year old eyes. On another note, I recently retired, and found a gun range nearby that is very active (why I'm getting into this now), and most of my reloading equiqment is like 30 years old. A long time in between shooting for sure.
Sorry if this has been a little long-winded. :D

Flintrock

Flintrock

For the pistol cartridges, shorter is better- a 24" barrel won't maximize velocity; 16" to 20" is best.

If the 1894p is a 44mag, and your shoulder is sore, get the rifle off your shoulder and into your chest, just inside the "crook" between your shoulder and your chest- it won't do to develop a flinch! This means that the rifle will be at "more" of an angle to "across your chest"- a "way" different angle than if you were shooting a bow, which is held almost parallel to your chest- the rifle in your chest will produce maybe, 45-60 degrees from "across your chest".

Instead of buying a recoil pad for each rifle, I bought a Past recoil pad that you strap around your body- but instead of strapping it on, I cut the straps off and had it sewn to the inside of a cotton duck (?) Wahmaker cowboy vest- it's not too hot in the summer to wear it, and you won't need anything in the dead of winter with a heavy coat on.

I had the sore shoulder problem shooting my Puma; it has a steel crescent butt plate, so I moved the butt into my chest and onto that pad, now I can shoot all day with no problem.

As for .44 and .357 mag loads, check out Greg Mushial's website http://www.gmdr.com/ .

Don't set yourself up for disappointment with the group size. Bench resting can produce, if you believe the posts, 3-shot groups of 1 1/2" at 50yds. That's better groups than I get parked on my butt on the ground with my elbows on my knees- my 24" cowboy will shoot 5 inch groups at 100 yds that way over 20 consecutive rounds with 240gr or 300gr lead at ~1460 fps...but not every day. The rifle's fine, I'm just not that consistent!

BTW, I shoot with the factory open sights; your peep should help, if your eyes can "learn" how...mine never could!

Have fun,

1x2

Thanks 1x2!!!

I appreciate the info, and url to the reloading info. I am not familiar with the Past recoil pad,
and found this site that has their products.

http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/pastshooting/products.html

It may need to be cut and pasted to access the site. Which version do you have? It sounds like it help you with recoil, and I am a believer in the less the better.

I was talking to one of our good shooters at the range today, and he said they shoot out to 2 hundred meters on some of their shoots. lol So here's hoping I can develope a decent load for it. If you are familiar with shooting that distance and can recommend a good bullet weight that will have good chances of performing well, I would appreciate that advice also.

Finally, peek sights help me to focus on the front site, and seem to work well for me.

Thanks again for taking time to share with me.
Flintrock

Flintrock,

The URL worked just right, thanks. I have the "vanilla" mag shield #300-010. I bought that size because I already had the vest. I measured the vest, took the measurements to the store, and this is the one that fits the vest. It may also help to know that I'm about 5' 10" and 150 lbs, so I'm a "skinny" guy, I'm told. No lie, my body feels no discomfort at all using this one. However, you might ponder over the #320-110 prone shield. The store didn't carry the prone shield; I can't tell whether you could get that model farther out to/on your shoulder or not....hard to tell unless you goof with it in the store. The pad does not "bend" well, so I actually did modify my hold a little bit to realize the benefit of the pad. But I think it for the best; leverguns are "made" for shoulder holds, but I shoot now from more the style you'd learn in the military, which I think is more accurate.

As for a load, I take a tip from the buffalo gunners. They shoot out to 600 yds or 1,000 yds, depending on what type of match they're in. There's no question of the heavier the better; they literally lob bullets from 350gr (useful to them only to 200 yds) out to 450-540gr for the 1,000 yd matches still fly only 1100-1600 fps. The deal is to minimize wind interference and also the ballistic fact that a heavier bullet will retain more of its energy downrange than a lighter bullet launched at the same initial velocity. So, we want to launch the heaviest bullet out to 200 yds that we can shoot accurately. So far as I know, in the .44mag, that would be a 300gr lasercast Wide Flat Nose, or Long Flat Nose (for targets, whichever), although I plan to test some 310grainers, maybe Buffalo Bore, Beartooth, or LBT tech stuff. I expect these to be too long to cycle, so if/when I do mess with 'em, it'll be "single shot" mode; loaded one at a time dropped in with the bolt open. Need to figure if the bullet face will be acceptable to the barrel throat; gotta watch the cartridge OAL. Used to be that 44s wouldn't shoot 300gr bullets well, but with better powders and deep grooved barrels, some rifles will do well, such as my Marlin 94SS.

I shoot to practice hunting, so my loads are for 125 yds (so I can shoot 100yds on a hunt). I did one day, just for yuks, take one shot at the 200yd gong, and by luck (?) nailed it. Boy, did I get some looks! I snickered to myself and turned my attention back to my hundred yard paper... I wouldn't try it again; wanted to retire with a perfect score!

As I remember, the drop at 200 yds is like 26", so it's a real arched shot, and the bullet won't have the terminal velocity to take anything down bigger than a coyote, is my guess, but gongs and paper targets can't tell- if they're hit, they're hit!

BTW, I do not use magnum primers; they're usage is powder-specific, in my book.

Have fun!

1x2

1x2,

Thanks again for the info!!

I will try to locate some store that has the Past recoil pads to see how they might fit.

I searched for the site for the bullets and came up with this site:

http://www.laser-cast.com/prices.html

This is their price list and list of bullets. Is the correct site, etc for the 300 gr lasercast Wide Flat Nose? They just have them listed as FN, and I image that is the same bullet. I'm guessing that the bullets have to be order from the web site.

Do the buffalo gunners have a seperate forum? or site? I could go and do some back reading to save you from all these questions! lol

Congratulations on the long shot!! It is amazing how often a one timer does that, and in my case, when I try to follow up, ...... lol

Flintrock

Flintrock,

Yes, that's the website. I buy direct from them, their prices include shipping, but mostly because the local stores don't carry the specific bullet that I want to use.

My first concern as to whether it's a LFN or WFN or just FN is that it's a flat-nosed bullet. Since I'm loading them head-to primer in the magazine tube, the flat nose will keep the bullet from detonating the primer it's snuggled up against in the magazine tube when subjected to shock. Under normal shooting circumstances I've been told it "doesn't matter that much" but I don't live that way, when being safer is "doable".

I'm not much of a bullet/ballistics expert, but for hunting with this cartridge and Hard Cast lead bullets, we want to break shoulder bones, so a wider "meplat" (read "wider flat nose") will break bone better than a "thinner" nosed bullet- it's an impact transference thing, so we might want to use a WFN.

LFN may be a tipoff that when seated, the bullet will be longer than the SAAMI Overall Cartridge Length spec of 1.610" (as listed on www.reloadbench.com I think that's the right length, check your reloading manuals, of which a minimum of two different publishers is recommended, plus website visits). If true, you'd have to load and shoot 'em one at a time, or visit one of the websites like www.leverguns.com. Some of these sites have instructions for filing the carrier on the Marlin to accept cartridges longer than the 1.610", but I don't know how much longer.

For shooting gongs and paper out to 200 yds, I'd probably rather use a "regular" flat nose, as that bullet style would have a thinner nose and exhibit better aerodynamics/less drag than a bullet with a wider nose. However, a LFN, if it's a longer bullet, may be more stable and less prone to tumble over a longer distance.

If you've got the cash and the time, experimenting with small batches of different primer manufacturers (I like Federals; used to use CCIs, but they're really tight in Winchester cases, so switched to Federal primers and Remington and Starline brass- I think the Remington's are the stoutest), powders, and bullets (and taking good notes!) is fun, and will increase or decrease your accuracy to an amazing extent. That's why we trade so much info around these forums; it saves some of us from reinventing the wheel.

As to a buffalo gun website, I don't frequent them, so don't know of any, so I can't help you there.

Have fun!

1x2

1x2,

Thanks so very much for the info!!!
You are a great help to a beginner in this aspect of shooting!! If you do not mind, a couple more questions. Where do you get your brass? Is it from shooting store bought Remingtons or do you get new brass and reload from the beginning? Since you have ordered from laser cast, would you mind sharing the exact bullet part number? I have to start somewhere, and I think it is a good idea to use what someone else feels is a good reloading conbination, and from what you have shared, I think you have a good handle on finding the right bullet, powder, primer, and gun conbination. I hope you do not think I am blowing smoke up your butt. I've found that it is always the best to find someone who's gone up the trail before you. In other words, I don't like re-inventing the wheel, if I can avoid it. As for the reloading manual/s, I'm thinking of getting the Lee book, and do not know what might be a good second choice. I have several handloading books from 30 years ago when I was doing some reloading. I don't know how much I can trust that info since the powders, primer, etc has changed. I plan to load for the .44 in two different ways. One for chicken silhouettes (a min load so as not to damage the silhouettes), and a heavy bullet stronger load to reach out to two hundred meters. It will be interesting for sure. lol

Thanks,
Flintrock

Flintrock,

Thanks for the boost. The truth is, if I wasn't so ignorant, I'd have a better idea of how humble I should be...

Best ideas I have for you:

Hang out at multiple levergun and reloading subforums, including cowboy action forums, as the .44mag is quite popular in that arena- this is a fine forum, but there are wizards "out there" that don't post on this one, so you have to go to where they hang out. Some examples are leverguns.com, 24-hour campfire, s&w forum, accuratereloading.com forum, ruger forum. Since the .44mag is also a pistol cartridge, lots of good info can be had at forums dedicated to pistols- the load data won't translate easily, but you'll pick up on lots of attendant items.

Ask lots of questions on both "subjects"; leverguns and reloading. For instance, Marshall, here, is a proponent, I believe, of lapping the barrels of his leverguns by firing low-level loads of coated cast bullets, to smooth restrictions in the bbl, thus enhancing accuracy. There's instructions on some websites for lightening trigger pull and smoothing the actions, also. You'll also pick up on problems people are having with their Marlin, some of which may be applicable to your rifle. It pays to have your rifle set up to shoot its best before you spend money trying to figure out which load your rifle likes best.

Thanks to a poster from another forum: "...to a certain extent, each gun follows a set of laws unique to itself..." there's some truth to that.

Start a post in the reloading forum (you might check what's already out there) "Call for .44mag load data".

Components:

I get brass from Midway, based on price. I buy Federal large pistol primers (the 150s, I think) and powder locally; shipping those items is expensive due to the surcharge for shipping "explosive" items.

I resize all my new brass, just for uniformity's sake. Lots of other people do not, and have no problems. Since you've reloaded before, you probably have your own set of reloading incantations and dances!

The .44 lasercasts I shoot are #39 and #40; #40 is the 300gr FP. If you post requesting data, answers will open up other options; I think there's a fine bullet manufacturer in your area, for instance.

I would think after a "short" intro, providing your rifle likes them, you'd want to try a 310-320 gr bullet for the long matches, providing they give you time to load them singly, if your rifle isn't modified to cycle them- at 200yds they may be more accurate, as suggested earlier.

When buying bullets, "demand" hardness info from the manufacturer; you'd want, I think, a brinnell hardness of between 21-25 to keep from leading your barrel. I stay under 1500 fps; a while back on the now-defunct Marlin Talk, a fine person suggested that the max velocity for lead bullets (to minimize leading) is either 1500 or 1550 fps, I've forgotten which, based on some physics I've also since forgotten. Not to worry; with open sights at a hundred yds or less, the consensus is that a 300gr bullet has plenty of energy to drop an elk at 1400-1500 fps, so no need to go faster, even though jacketed bullets will run much faster...but jacketed bullets are for organ shots, not bone. A 240gr lead bullet is good for deer out of same rifle, based on "like" ballistics and energy calculations, IMO. I've also read that velocity in excess of ~1370 fps doesn't increase penetration of a lead bullet. Also you might want to read everything on www.garrettcartridges.com .

Be careful not to take all the load data people post at face value; some people, unfortunately, are a disaster looking for a range to happen, as you've learned over the years. For that matter, that's one of the great reasons for multiple reloading manuals. Since I shoot revolvers, I like the Speer manual, the latest is #13, but I'm waiting for #14 (if its coming at all) as I hope that they'll lavish some additional attention on the 44mag due to increased popularity. Lyman's manual- they have a new one out, #48, I believe, but I won't buy it, even though I don't know what's in it, because their load data from manual #47, which I do have, is specific to their cast bullets from their molds, and their 38, 357, and 44 data isn't anywhere close to other sources I utilize. I've never seen a Lee manual, but others say that it's excellent.

Yeah, I wouldn't rely on the old manuals; save them, but don't rely on the load data. After all, powder characteristics can change from batch to batch, according to the manufacturers...though I think there's some manufacturer "protectionist" theoretical elements in that warning.

I'd buy one pound only of 3 different powders (max!) for each of the two (chicken silhouette and 200yd gong) for testing...after some more browsing and reading.

Lastly, cuz last comments often stick best, I plan to test some Beartooth bullets as I get time- you might want to do the same. If you cruise through the listing on this site, there's some very interesting bullets there between 280-300gr, including gas check bullets. GC's are excellent, in part because the burning powder doesn't overly burn the bullet base and deform it (obdurate, I think is the term). This also reduces leading, and GCs are more efficient as they keep gas from escaping around the sides of the bullet, so more pressure pushes on the bullet base, and the resulting trajectory can be more uniform, shot to shot. There are people who believe a 270gr bullet is best for both your applications, especially if a heavier bullet doesn't work at 200yds, or you may find no increase in accuracy for a bullet heavier than this- who has time to try them all?

If you post or e-mail or call Marshall, he may have suggestions on a powder & bullet combo to beat all! I've spoken with him, he's super... nuf said.

Have fun,

1x2

P.S. Maybe somebody else will chime in here, it's not a private discussion!

[sigh] PPS- Having no access to your brain and what's already in there, if you haven't already, I strongly urge you to bite a bullet and get a chronograph, and, for testing, weigh all your charges- this combo will save you phenomenal amounts of frustration, time, and money over the long haul...

1x2,

Thanks again!! you have provided a load of information for me to digest! I'll certainly visit the sites/forums that you have mention here. The next club shoot will only be out to 100 meters, and I will work on loads for that first. This weekend we are have our monthly club shoot using .22's out to 100 meters, and I am doing a lot of practicing for that, and it is suppose to storm all weekend. LOL I love it! The only bad thing about that is that a lot of shooters will stay home.

I don't have a chronograph, but I will look into the cost, and see if I can afford it. The problem is that I want so much other stuff. LOL esp. a 1894 .357 of some sort. I may try to find a long barrel in it.

I'm going to check the twist rate on my 1894p. A friend here thinks it is probably 1 in 35. I could not find that in the manual or box, so I will have to note it the next time I clean it. The point being that he said if it was a 1 in 35, that to get a decent spin going, the load would have to be near max velocity. I think he is using 21 grains of 296 pushing a 240 or 248 grain lead FN. He also said it tears the chickens up. I do not know if all of Marlin's 1894 have the same twist or not, so it will be interesting indeed.

I'm about brain dead tonight so I'll sign.

Thanks again,
Flintrock

Flintrock,

The twist would be 1:38. The Ruger 44s twist somewhat faster, but I'm not aware of their being any more accurate than the Marlins. This was based on the 96/44; they've added some models in 44 over the past year or two.

A bright fellow who frequented the dead "Marlin Talk" posted an answer to a question regarding the "slow" twist rate with a longhand version of the formula used (presumably by barrel makers) to calculate the optimum twist rate. This formula takes into account lots of bullet geometry and characteristics. The upshot was/is, that the formula produced a twist rate of (as I remember) 1:37+ change. He was satisfied with the answer, and as I walked through it, so was I. Ernie Stallman, owner of Badger Barrels and barrel-maker extraordinaire, as I remember a conversation with him, was also satisfied with the twist (although not so satisfied with the 44mag in general as a target cartridge and candidate caliber for a short-barreled Sharps!).

I wouldn't argue with your friend's success; it's great that he's found a load that his rifle likes. Do not be surprised, however, if you find that your best accuracy is at somewhat less than near-max velocity, for which you will be happier, as it will spare you some recoil.

Have a great time!

1x2

Hi Everyone,

I just found the forum a couple of days ago and was lead here. I just bought a nib 1894p, shot it about 40 times, and my shoulder is a little sore. :rolleyes: On the way home to N E Texas from Austin where I bought it, I was able to pick up a lyman peep sight for it. So my question is what kind of loads to try loading for it. What is a reasonable accuracy to expect out of it. I plan to shoot silhouettes with it, and if I can find a deer spot by next fall, some hunting. I'm going to be competing against some pretty good shooters, and would like all the inside info I can get. I know I will get plenty of advice from them, but the shoot is a ways off, and I would not mind a head start.
I'm also in the market for a 1894c .357 in some form or other. Whether I get a longer barrel or not depends on how I can handle the 1894p. Time will tell on my 60 year old eyes. On another note, I recently retired, and found a gun range nearby that is very active (why I'm getting into this now), and most of my reloading equiqment is like 30 years old. A long time in between shooting for sure.
Sorry if this has been a little long-winded. :D

Flintrock
Hi Flintrock, I just posted a ? on prices for the same rifle you just bought. My shop is asking $475 nib also. Is this around what you paid if you don't mind sharing your cost? Thanks
Phil,

Flintrock I have the same on layaway and their asking $475 for a nib. How does this $ compare to what you paid? Thanks.
Phil,,


Hi Everyone,

I just found the forum a couple of days ago and was lead here. I just bought a nib 1894p, shot it about 40 times, and my shoulder is a little sore. :rolleyes: On the way home to N E Texas from Austin where I bought it, I was able to pick up a lyman peep sight for it. So my question is what kind of loads to try loading for it. What is a reasonable accuracy to expect out of it. I plan to shoot silhouettes with it, and if I can find a deer spot by next fall, some hunting. I'm going to be competing against some pretty good shooters, and would like all the inside info I can get. I know I will get plenty of advice from them, but the shoot is a ways off, and I would not mind a head start.
I'm also in the market for a 1894c .357 in some form or other. Whether I get a longer barrel or not depends on how I can handle the 1894p. Time will tell on my 60 year old eyes. On another note, I recently retired, and found a gun range nearby that is very active (why I'm getting into this now), and most of my reloading equiqment is like 30 years old. A long time in between shooting for sure.
Sorry if this has been a little long-winded. :D

Flintrock