Gentlemen,

Last month I posted a product review on the MidwayUSA website applauding the two Simmons Whitetail Expedition 4x12x42 AO rifle scopes I had bought. I had mounted both scopes on my Weatherby 30-06 and my son's H&R .223. The scopes performed, in ALL categories normally evaluated, flawlessly. I had not yet hunted the scopes.

The FINAL and TRUE evaluation of any riflescope, in my humble opinion, is in the field and a real world hunting environment. If a hunter cannot depend on his scope to maintain its integrity and boresight then he has nothing more than aluminum and glass decor atop his weapon. The exception to this philosophy is for those of you who ONLY shoot for pleasure at the range or out in the back 40.

For those of you who have read the story on my Pachuta, MS, Hog Hunt (SE Hunting this forum), you know the problems Michael and I had. We hit that hog about 6 times, missed him twice, and knocked him down 4 times. The hog was never found after an evening and morning of tracking without dogs (the outfitters choice...not ours).

Both of our rifles had been knocked high and right by 9" and 2" respectively on our boresights by the rough roads while traveling from the lodge to the stands. EVERY man on this forum and on my email buddy list confirmed that our scopes SHOULD have maintained boresight integrity. Now for the salt on the wounds...

I called the Simmons Warranty Department and spoke to a senior RifleScope Technician, Chuck. After hearing the hunting story Chuck told me that ALL of the Simmons RifleScopes incorporate weak springs to maintain reticle position. Chuck further stated that ALL Simmons scopes are not good travelers in the hunting environment. Chuck further recommended that I BUY the Weaver Grand Slam riflescope IF I intended to hunt with my scopes versus drive back and forth to the range for my shooting neeeds.

Since Meade Optical owns both the Simmons and the Weaver lineup there is a possibility that I will be able to use both scopes in a trade in credit scenario with Simmons. The reason I state that is simple.

I found out yesterday from the good people at MidwayUSA in Missouri that I was NOT allowed to send the scopes back to them and get my money back. MidwayUSA specifically states on the back of its invoice that once a rifle scope is MOUNTED they will no longer accept it back for ANY reason.

WE the consumers are now put in the position of having to deal with the problem in an awkward manner. Since the problem I have is not really a defective product, insomuch as a design weakness to save money on the production line, I am left with a few choices.

1. I hereby resolve to never again buy any optics from MidwayUSA again. I presented the scenario to Wal-Mart and they stated that they would either refund 100% of my money or give me credit towards another model. Go figure... The third scope I bought for my daughter's first deer rifle was unopened, pending a certain birthday, and sent back to MidwayUSA minus the $20 for shipping both ways. MidwayUSA felt bad about my experience and offered to forego the restocking fee for the unopened scope, minus the $20 shipping both ways.

2. I can send both scopes back to Simmons and TRY to swap them for a pair of Weaver Grand Slams, made in Japan with stronger springs vs. the Expeditions made in the Phillipines with weaker springs.

3. Keep the scopes mounted and boresighted like they are right now. I will then carry my boresight collimator to wherever I hunt. Having noted the exact position of both weapons right after sighting in at the range I will check the boresight of both weapons AFTER transport and AFTER getting comfortable in the stand. Michael can hold the flashlight.

4. Put both scopes on the driveway during the annual neighborhood garage sale next month and see if I can sell them.

Hopefully this knowledge will allow some of you to make a better choice when it comes to what brand of optics you buy and WHERE you buy them from. It stinks knowing that my son and I lost our first boar because Simmons uses weak springs to 'Save money on the production line.' It further stinks knowing that the store you bought the product from won't touch it AFTER you have mounted the scope.

I have had real good service from MidwayUSA on my reloading and shooting supplies otherwise.

One Shot, One Kill, Unless you're shooting a Simmons Whitetail Expedition that's been transported in a 4x4 on rough Pachuta, Mississippi roads.

JP

I find It hard to imagine that a scope called the Whitetail Expedition is designed to be cradled in a padded gun case for trips to the range only , and find it more incredible that a spokesperson would tell you that nothing in the Simmons line is suitable for hunting. I wonder if he still has a job? Although he did try to talk you into their twice the price Weaver line , maybe it's all a bait and switch racket.


444fitch

I find It hard to imagine that a scope called the Whitetail Expedition is designed to be cradled in a padded gun case for trips to the range only , and find it more incredible that a spokesperson would tell you that nothing in the Simmons line is suitable for hunting. I wonder if he still has a job? Although he did try to talk you into their twice the price Weaver line , maybe it's all a bait and switch racket.


444fitch

I think optics are like anything else. You get what you pay for. If it seems to good to be true, it probably is. Don't look for a steal, there are none. There is a reason why one scope costs $200 and a similar one costs $400. Everytime I've taken the cheap way out, it has cost me twice as much, because I ahd to buy a second one. Guns are like cameras. They are only as good as the glass you put on them. Buy the best glass you can afford and if you can't afford the best, WAIT...

"The very best is barely good enough."

IMHO, stick with Leupold, Burris, and Nikon, and it will be hard to go wrong. I've heard Bushnell is building a pretty decent scope, but i havn't used one. I just got a Burris for a Ruger .44 magnum. I was afraid to take a chance on a cheapie to hold up the the beating that gun willl give it..

I have three Simmons varmint scopes that travel across the prairie with no ill effects.

I have to admit I'm intrigued by your specific terminology of the guns "losing their Boresight."

So am I to believe that you went hunting with a gun that was only boresighted!

Does this mean you didn't actually shoot it and adjust the sights accordingly, before you went after a potentially dangerous animal?

I have to know before I pass judgement on what you claim.

Well, Just a note, Since you cant return those two scopes, Get some of your money back by utilizing a great site called Ebay :D

Gentlemen,

Last week Simmons/Weaver/Meade Optical received my one page professional letter detailing my woes with their Simmons Whitetail Expedition weak reticle springs.

I had asked them to send me ONE Weaver Grand Slam since I valued one Weaver Grand Slam as being monetarily equal to two Simmons Expeditions.

Weaver sent me two brand new 4.5x14x40AO mattel black scopes. Wow.

Mordo...If you'll read my MS Hog Hunt story on this forum you will know that I went above and beyond the call of reasonable duty to insure my son and I had accurately boresighted weapons to hunt with.

Boresighted optically, fine tuned at our range, sighted in at the Hog Ranch range, and checked after the hunt at our range for what went wrong. Total expended .223/30-06 ammo was about 100 rounds.

I know what kind of people you are referring to. I have been at the range while the owner of one of the local guns shops has been next to me boresighting customers rifles because the customers don't want to do it. Unbelievable.

My son and I are not in the category of hunter. We do everything including now loading our own ammo.

Since the Simmons Optical technician knew exactly what went wrong I guess he felt compelled to implement good will. I personally am very grateful for the HONESTY and truthfulness by the Simmons Optical Repair Department.

Anyone suggesting that the Optical repair technician be fired for being brutally honest in his assesment should be ashamed of himself. Lying, cheating, and stealing might be OK with some folks but it is not acceptable behaviour to me or my family. That man was honest, fair, and above reproach with me and I am grateful for his behavior. I put that in my letter to Simmons.

I have boresighted one of the Grand Slams on my Weatherby and I now have sub-MOAs with all of 40 rounds fired...from 125gr reduced loads to 180gr Sierra GameKings in full load. So far so good...Hunting season will be the ultimate test.

KimberGuy2004...You are absolutely right. You only get what you pay for and I for one will never buy another scope that isn't top of the line.

Thanks for all of your advice and feedback,

JP

One Shot, One Kill

Many times I've bounced along rough trails across the prairies of western South Dakota . My .243 antelope rifle wears a Simmons AETEC and it has never lost its zero. Millett two piece bases and turn-in rings.

My 35 Marlin wears a Simmons 44 MAG 2X-7X scope with same Millett two piece bases. This is also a remarkably bright scope with exceptional clarity. No zero loss either.

I'm NOT convinced that Simmons builds poor products. I'd buy another without hesitation.
TR

Quote:

Anyone suggesting that the Optical repair technician be fired for being brutally honest in his assesment should be ashamed of himself. Lying, cheating, and stealing might be OK with some folks but it is not acceptable behaviour to me or my family. That man was honest, fair, and above reproach with me and I am grateful for his behavior. I put that in my letter to Simmons."

HHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM...............

One man's "honest" assessment is anothers "TOTALLY INACCURATE" one it seems..........

I have worked in the firearms industry off and on for nearly twenty years now.I have many friends in the optics industry(one who has over thirty years experience at Bushnell) and from my expereince, what the "Tech" at Simmons told you was PURE BS!!!

There are ways to empathise with a customer problem with a company's product without company reps totally trashing the reputation of what they make and sell just to sound "Knowledgeable".That Simmons employee did both a diservice to you AND the company by giving you inaccurate information.

He should be RETRAINED and dressed down by his superiors for the inaccurate way he portrayed the Simmons scopes VS the Weavers(based on only TWO samples used by you) by infering the ONLY way you would get a scope from them with good adjustment springs in the tube was to buy one of their Grand Slam scopes.

Bull pucky!!!

First of all,the only real difference between the Simmons and the Weaver GS scopes is the DESIGN of the springs.The Simmons use FLAT spring(s) and the GS use the ball bearin/coil spring Microtrac design.

The flat spring arangement used in the Simmons is also used in the Weaver classic series and MOST other high quality scopes made in the WORLD -including most of the LEUPOLD line!!!

Any brand of scope can fail as the modern riflescope's basic design is complex and MUST be built perfectly to function 100% of the time in real field conditions.Even the hihest quality scopes CAN fail in the field.Witness the fact the US Marine snipers "Bullet proof"Unertyl scopes run about $2,500 per copy!!!!!!!!!!!

Given military specs even Weaver Grand slams wouldn't make the grade!!

Yes,apparently the spring setup in your Simmons scopes were not up to the pounding the guns took on the way to your hunting area on your Boar hunt-BUT the answer the Simmons "tech" gave you in response was both simplistic and simple minded in my point of view.I have used MANY higher end Simmons scopes with COMPLETE satisfaction.I have heard many good things about the GS Weaver scopes.

I look at it this way the folks at SIMMONS provided you with two more expensive scopes to make up for the fact you had a problem with a SIMMONS product.They stood behind their scopes by making you happyeven at great expense to them,most likely because they don't have to back their waranty up very often due to the fact that the VAST majority of Simmons scopes work just fine...