Hey guys I decided to go with the .223 AI and had a question about Grit Fire Forming Could anybody give me some suggestions of a safe Pistol load to start with? and work my way up. also a little more info on puting lube on the brass.
Thanks Keith

Hey guys I decided to go with the .223 AI and had a question about Grit Fire Forming Could anybody give me some suggestions of a safe Pistol load to start with? and work my way up. also a little more info on puting lube on the brass.
Thanks KeithI fill my cases with Bullseye and seal the neck with wax. You have no pressure problems. The best way might be with a slightly reduced load and cheap bullets. You can fireform and break in the barrel at the same time. Butch

I'd suggest scrolling down a bit and reading the thread about " Case forming" I have been working on a 240 Gibbs and got a ton of good info from several people here. Very good bunch of guys here.

With no bullet and only a load of grits to develop pressure it's pretty hard to overload, it'll just vaporize your grits a little faster. I use about 10 grains of unique in a 30-06 size case for fireforming .375/06AI. I use unique because that's the fastest pistol powder I have. You won't need that much with the smaller case. Start with a few grains of pistol powder and work up until you get good fill out. I use a powder charge topped with a small wad of toilet paper, then filled up with cream of wheat and sealed with a plug from a bar of ivory soap. These are noisy like a pistol and you want to keep those hi-speed grits pointe in a safe direction :D

This has worked for me for 100+ cases. The shoulder will be slightly rounded but will fill out to a sharp shoulder when you fire it with a real bullet load.

I do lube the shells with 3in1 oil, it's supposed to help them not grip the chamber and allow them to slide back against the bolt face during forming.

Good luck.

Eric

With no bullet and only a load of grits to develop pressure it's pretty hard to overload, it'll just vaporize your grits a little faster. I use about 10 grains of unique in a 30-06 size case for fireforming .375/06AI. I use unique because that's the fastest pistol powder I have. You won't need that much with the smaller case. Start with a few grains of pistol powder and work up until you get good fill out. I use a powder charge topped with a small wad of toilet paper, then filled up with cream of wheat and sealed with a plug from a bar of ivory soap. These are noisy like a pistol and you want to keep those hi-speed grits pointe in a safe direction :D

This has worked for me for 100+ cases. The shoulder will be slightly rounded but will fill out to a sharp shoulder when you fire it with a real bullet load.

I do lube the shells with 3in1 oil, it's supposed to help them not grip the chamber and allow them to slide back against the bolt face during forming.

Good luck.

Eric


Hey Thanks Eric..I appriciate the info... When I wasn't getting any responses I started to think I may just fire form with Bullets at the range ...I"m glad somebody came through! Bullets cost to much just to fire form lol! Thanks again.
Keith

Eric g has it right. The key to good firefoming is the girt and enough powder but not too much. The more powder you blow down the bore the more erosion there is. 223 ai shoot just fine with factory 223 ammo. Incorporate in a hunting trip and you will have all the brass you need. Velocity will be reduced a little due to the energy taken to fireform the brass but a close to intermediate ranges it isn't a big deal. I have never cared for fireforming brass jsut by blowing bullets down the barrel.What a waste of a good barrel.

kac -

We started in the "grits" school, ie, why waste the $'s on a bullet etc, but have become almost exclusively a fireform with bullet type. With grits we never would get fully formed shoulders, and it wasn't until after the first loading with a bullet that would happen. Now we tend to use bulk bullets and a small charge of pistol powder, and yes, we're "wasting" the $'s on the bulk bullets, but we get fully formed cases on the first go... Having said that, when we formed our 223ai brass we used bulk 50gr psp's [Midway had them on sale] sitting on either 6gr of GreenDot (gives about 1800fps), or 6gr of w231, likewise giving 1800ish fps. [What was surprising was that these loads shot halfway well.] But after fireforming the cases, we'd trim them to square them up, and then we'd be good to go.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

kac -

We started in the "grits" school, ie, why waste the $'s on a bullet etc, but have become almost exclusively a fireform with bullet type. With grits we never would get fully formed shoulders, and it wasn't until after the first loading with a bullet that would happen. Now we tend to use bulk bullets and a small charge of pistol powder, and yes, we're "wasting" the $'s on the bulk bullets, but we get fully formed cases on the first go... Having said that, when we formed our 223ai brass we used bulk 50gr psp's [Midway had them on sale] sitting on either 6gr of GreenDot (gives about 1800fps), or 6gr of w231, likewise giving 1800ish fps. [What was surprising was that these loads shot halfway well.] But after fireforming the cases, we'd trim them to square them up, and then we'd be good to go.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Greg Thanks for the info thats exactly what I was looking for! one question though?.. do you have any problems getting proper ignition with only 6gr of the pistol powder? also are you seating way into the lands as well? Thanks in advance Keith

Have several AI wildcats that must have the shoulders fireformed.

First, the cases are annealed for longer life and better fireforming characteristics.

Then, the case is stuffed as full as a seated bullet will allow of very slow buring powder (RL-22, IMR7828, etc) and using the cheapest bullets available, or those no longer used (got a shelf loaded with them!)

This combination produces the most beautiful fireformed cases to be had.

Using the measurement and eyeball techniques to inspect cases for maximum pressure indicators and backing off a couple grains when reached, most cases have lasted for more than 20 reloads before splits in necks/shoulders or primer pockets became worn out.

Kac -

A small rifle primer will convectively ignite 12-14gr of pistol powder (depending on the powder, assuming it's on the fast side and not heavily coated), so, no problem with 6 gr of GreenDot [in fact when we do such and chrono the results we'll tend to see SDs in the 10-12fps range and ESs in the 30-40 fps range (over 10 shots), ie, the ignition is clean and repeatable].

kdub - have to agree with the general method. And if one is not sure, what you've stated will always work... but like in the case of factoring a 2nd degree polynomial (in std form), yes one can always use the quadratic formula to get the factors, but sometimes, one just as easily factor it in their head. Over time we've found that: if the amount we're asking the brass to flow is small, and/or the ease with which it'll flow is high, then we can avoid the unburned powder grains, the 4-10x amount of powder and the time annealing the cases, by using the pistol powder method. In general our experience has been that for 22 k-hornets, 223ai, 218 mashburns, 255 deans, 3030ai and even 348 ai's the pistol powder method works quite well, does not unduely work the brass, and one ends up with brass that'll last a large number of firings. Conversely, if one is trying to move the brass a lot, or the brass is heavy (ie, disinclined to flow easily), then yes, 7828, vvn170, 870 etc is the correct and only longterm viable approach.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com