Gentlemen,
You were a fine help to my last question. My next one is this. A lever action caliber that is great for hunting here in VA. Primarily white tail deer and maybe bear up in the mountains. I don't want to punish my shoulder to bad, must be able to use for CAS, ammo should be reasonably available and most important......justifying the purchase of another gun to my wife?
I keep reading on the 45/70. But for some reason I'm hedging.
Thanks,
3Crows

45-70 is only allowed for long range side matches, and unless you know of a club in your area that regularly includes long range shooting every month, it would be a poor choice for an all around caliber as per your requirements.
CAS requires 2 pistols, a shotgun, and rifle which must shoot pistol rounds at no more than 1400 fps. .45 Colt (no, there never was a short Colt, it's just not .45 ACP, and correct just as it is) is popular and considered most authentic. Yes, I know 44-40 is more authentic, I said "considered". While factory hunting loads are few, it will handle deer quite well, and handloads can be very powerful; more so from a rifle. Some, a few, maybe none, of the Colt pistol clones are safe to shoot powerhouse rounds; you never know, and most will not honor warranties if non-factory loads are used (even though most of us use CAS/SASS legal reloads anyway) Ammo is still expensive, even buying in bulk.
.44 rounds are somewhat harder to find, but can be either loaded legal in special or magnum cases. Hunting ammo is easier to find and has a wider selection, but re-sale value of CAS pistols in .44 is much lower, and if you decide to swtich calibers later on you might get a little upset on what your trade in's are worth. The only pistol you should get with a rifle in .44 is a Ruger. it can be a Vaquero, Bisley, Blackhawk with adjustable sites (modern catagory), but they are the ONLY pistols that will take magnun loads and/or heavy .44 special. It's too easy to mix up ammo, and as good or nice your sixgun is, it won't last for long using heavy loads. Ruger's are larger, some call them clunky, and don't feel like a Colt or good clone, but they are sturdy, and with slimmer grips and one easy to install spring they will feel and act more like the real thing. More on Ruger's later.
Then there's the very popular .38/.357. It is an historic caliber (the case(s) are not) it's very cheap to buy in bulk or reload, and you gain velocity for hunting with .357 loads from your rifle. Again, if you are going to use your CAS pistols for hunting, better get a pair of Rugers.
The 44-40 can be loaded hot and is actually a very good hunting round, on par with the .44 mag when loaded properly. It's even harder to find and more expensive than everything else I've mentioned, even if you reload, but some folks are loyal to it, and because of the semi-bottle neck case, it shoots cleaner than straight walled cartridges.
Food for thought. Ruger's are great general purpose guns, stand up to hunting rounds, and are a fine combo to a like caliber Marlin 1894. The Marlin competition model is factory tuned and slicked up along with a beautiful color case hardened receiver, are a joy to just look at (and take out of the gun cabinet and hold; you KNOW you do that too!), but are made only in .38 special and .45 Colt. You can modify any 1894 and make it cycle smoother and be CAS legal for as cheap or expensive as you are willing to go. Most of the really good cowboy shooters throw .38's downrange, as well as have the same Ruger(s) they bought to start out with as backups, and the low recoil and affordability of the .38 make it most attractive to begining shooters, especially women and kids who are recoil shy, or for folks who have smaller hands. I'm 6' 4", but my hands are barely in the large size, even with size 13 boots.
If it's hunting and then CAS, go with the .44, and look at getting a nice used Marlin 1894 CBII limited, with the longer (24 inch?) octagonal barrel. The longer site radius makes these rifles great for hunting and getting the most out of the .44 mag. Get one in .45 if it's 50-50, or get one in .357 if you need cost effective but still versatile to go from the range to the woods.
Again, about the Rugers, they can be had quite cheap used, are built like tanks, the stainless versions are sooo very easy to clean, and can digest magnum factory or your own rolled hot loads, and you won't need an action job right after you buy them new. In fact, the used ones sometimes have just the right trigger pull to satisfy most cowbot shooters for years to come.
That's more like my 3 cents than my .02, but I figured if you needed a rifle caliber suggestion that will justify, uh, certain concerns, you'd want more info than just "go with XXX".
Happy huntin'!:)
Gentlemen,
You were a fine help to my last question. My next one is this. A lever action caliber that is great for hunting here in VA. Primarily white tail deer and maybe bear up in the mountains. I don't want to punish my shoulder to bad, must be able to use for CAS, ammo should be reasonably available and most important......justifying the purchase of another gun to my wife?
I keep reading on the 45/70. But for some reason I'm hedging.
Thanks,
3Crows

Picking one caliber for both CAS and Bear hunting is really tough. .357 or .44 Mag would be suitable for CAS and whitetail but I wouldn't be comfortable going after bear with them. The larger calibers (45-70, 444 Marlin, 450 Marlin etc.) aren't really suitable for CAS, though they could be made to work. I'm thinking either you need to forget about bear hunting with this rifle or explain to your wife that you need TWO new rifles! (Good luck!)

44 mag out of a rifle will do a black bear nicely. Never tried 45 colt but why not. so.......I suggest a 44 magnum or 45 colt lever.

Thanks, I own a Vaquero in 45LC and think its a fine shooter, I, on the other hand need some work! If I go with the Marlin lever in 45LC I would only have to lug one ammo on trips. It would be acceptable in CAS and would take down a deer just fine. I believe the round would work on bear as well. Unless someone else posts negative on 45LC for these for deer or bear then I'm golden.
I can't help but ask as we do have one special boar hunt here in VA. If I had the luck to hunt boar, what do ya' think? I know about pissed boars being stung in the shoulder with hollow points. Is the soft round nose effective in 45LC?
3 Crows

On boar over 150 pounds, maybe a little more, the soft nose would not be my first choice. I would choose the hotest, best built, and heaviest bonded core .45 bullet I could find, or go with a heavy cast type. I haven't taken hogs with the .45, but have with the .44 mag, and hogs are just tough animals so shot placement using a pistol caliber is critical, and you'll need to know the limitation of the ammo you select as well as your own. Factory hunting loads in .45 Colt aren't quite what you can achieve by handloading or buying premium handloads, but for deer they are plenty good. Black bears are in the same boat as hogs, and you'll need the best bullets you can find. I good rule of thumb is to take one shot at the range for every yard your maximum distance in the field will be, with the SAME ammo you'll be using for hunting. Pistol rounds gain velocity with longer barrels, but can have quite different trajectories between light and heavy bullets, so paper ballistics are only part of your preparation, but you'll do fine with the .45 Colt in your pistol and rifle. If hot loads are a little much in your handgun, then stoke it with something more managible, and your rifle with the T.C.B.* rounds.


*Think Elvis.....

Colt started calling its 45 Colt Long Colt when Remington started producing a 45 that was very close to the same length as the Colt 45. This was to ensure that people could tell the difference.

Most CAS shooters that I knoe use 357/38, 45, 44spec/mag the then others. They key is to load about 600 700 fps and use lead. I am currently mining lead from the range, I get 1200 bullets per bucket, to make 200 gr 44 rounds. I am using 5.2 gr of Bullseye and can use either spec or mag cases. The 250 KSWC are a bit to long in the mag case and will only allow 9 to be fead into the Marlin tube. Other than that I am have a geat time shooting and reusing the lead.

.44 Mag is by far the most versatile for the activities you have listed....

For boar, have only used 44 mag, but again cant see why 45 colt would not work. Use heavy ammo and it will be fine.

You already have some good advice here, so I will be short and display my own preferences. I had a similar dilemma when choosing for CAS and hunting. Personal preference for me is the .45LC, the Ruger Vaquero pistol and the Winchester 94 for rifle in the .45LC. As far as bear hunting with the .45LC rifle...it can be done, but caliber is not the issue, but your ability to place the shot where it needs to be placed. The .45LC rifle rounds available readily for CAS are not really that swift for hunting black bear. You can't be sure the bear you see is going to be "average" or small. For bear hunting I will take the 45-70 over a .44magnum or .45LC, or maybe go with a 30-06 with a 225 grain bullet. Unlike hats there is no "one size fits all," when it comes to pistols and rifles....CAS and hunting. If you start to reload, the .45LC becomes even more attractive, as you can go beyond the retail ammo available in 225 or 250 grains and approach the .44 magnum power and the low end of the 45-70 ammo available....if you stick with Ruger Black Hawk, Vaquero, Bisley and the Marlin leveractions. The .45LC will be fairly effective out to 100 yds with a decent shooter. Beyond that you will need to be better than average. If you can place the first bullet at your intended point of impact consistently, then and only then, would I suggest taking the gun hunting bear. You won't need more than two rounds for a decent sized black bear within 100 yds.... They get mighty angry when aggravated, ...so figure one shot at 100 yds... The next at 10 ft. when you work that lever frantically! <g>
dagone...this was longer than I intended! :)

Gentlemen,
You were a fine help to my last question. My next one is this. A lever action caliber that is great for hunting here in VA. Primarily white tail deer and maybe bear up in the mountains. I don't want to punish my shoulder to bad, must be able to use for CAS, ammo should be reasonably available and most important......justifying the purchase of another gun to my wife?
I keep reading on the 45/70. But for some reason I'm hedging.
Thanks,
3Crows

Don't fight the loosing battle. CAS shooting and hunting will not be served by one rifle. CAS is too specialized, get a rifle in .38 Special and be done with it. Competition shooting, even CAS fancy dress silliness, requires specialized equipment, if you want to be competitive. If you want to just go to the matches and enjoy the camaraderie, fun and sharing a common interest in the culture, then anything will do. Or pick a sport that uses real rifles for real men, ones that kick like a turpentined mule and kill things. I never justify things to my wife - I need a new rifle like she needed that diamond ring.

axlenut

Axlenut, maybe you should stick to "competative" shooting sports and leave your opinions about CAS there.
The 45-70 can be used for long range side matches, and is suitable for hunting just about anything in North America with the right load. The .44 mag. or .45 Colt will benefit from increased velocity from a rifle barrel, and there are several factory hunting loads suitable for the game and distances you intend to hunt. However, out of a rifle, these loads really don't kick that much, unless you are shooting a large bore long distance side match. Because safety is a concern, as well as the "Spirit of the Game", SASS legal loads must be all lead bullets which pretty much duplicate what the old black powder loads were capable of, whether you are using smokless or BP/BP substitute. The use of higher velocity rounds and/or jacketed bullets would create a dangerous scene, and even CAS loads are known to bounce back, which is why no one is allowed to be near the firing line w/o eye protection. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to miss a target at only 7-8 yards, including with your shotgun. And you don't have to spend a fortune of clothing either, as you can cut the pockets and belt loops off an old pair of jeans, attach supsender buttons found at Walmart and the like, slip on an old pair of ropers and find an appropriate shirt and suspenders and you're there. Most of all, enjoy yourself, silliness and all.
Don't fight the loosing battle. CAS shooting and hunting will not be served by one rifle. CAS is too specialized, get a rifle in .38 Special and be done with it. Competition shooting, even CAS fancy dress silliness, requires specialized equipment, if you want to be competitive. If you want to just go to the matches and enjoy the camaraderie, fun and sharing a common interest in the culture, then anything will do. Or pick a sport that uses real rifles for real men, ones that kick like a turpentined mule and kill things. I never justify things to my wife - I need a new rifle like she needed that diamond ring.

axlenut

Axlenut, maybe you should stick to "competative" shooting sports and leave your opinions about CAS there.
The 45-70 can be used for long range side matches, and is suitable for hunting just about anything in North America with the right load. The .44 mag. or .45 Colt will benefit from increased velocity from a rifle barrel, and there are several factory hunting loads suitable for the game and distances you intend to hunt. However, out of a rifle, these loads really don't kick that much, unless you are shooting a large bore long distance side match. Because safety is a concern, as well as the "Spirit of the Game", SASS legal loads must be all lead bullets which pretty much duplicate what the old black powder loads were capable of, whether you are using smokless or BP/BP substitute. The use of higher velocity rounds and/or jacketed bullets would create a dangerous scene, and even CAS loads are known to bounce back, which is why no one is allowed to be near the firing line w/o eye protection. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to miss a target at only 7-8 yards, including with your shotgun. And you don't have to spend a fortune of clothing either, as you can cut the pockets and belt loops off an old pair of jeans, attach supsender buttons found at Walmart and the like, slip on an old pair of ropers and find an appropriate shirt and suspenders and you're there. Most of all, enjoy yourself, silliness and all.

Oh Dear! I knew someone would react poorly to my post. Yes the .45-70 will take any game, that's why I own three of them, 2 1886's and a Mauser. However, the truth remains that any competitive sport such as CAS that requires reduced loads is best shot with a cartridge that balances out in a smaller case. It ain't no different than NRA bullseye shooting with semi-wadcutters and a heavy slide 1911. That pistol won't last long with hardball.

Guns designed to shoot well with reduced loads at short ranges are not going to perform ideally at longer ranges with heavier loads, especially with factory iron sights limited adjustment range.

If you compromise and try to use a .45-70 then you limit yourself to one class of competition, but if you buy a specialized caliber then the whole game opens up - correct? However, none of these rifles are going to be "ideal" for hunting game animals where we have a moral obligation to produce a quick reliable kill. Sorry but the .44 mag and .45 Colt rifles do not fit that bill beyond 75 yards, if then. A scoped centerfire bolt action in any of a number of calibers is the more responsible choice.

The word silly as in silliness is defined as: "rustic or plain" and "frivolous or outlandish behavior". Now cutting your pockets off, sewing on suspender buttons, and sitting on an adult-sized hobby horse while shooting at targets is - (need I say it?) - just plain silly! Fun and recreational silliness to be sure. Now don't be so sensitive about it.

Oh, and by the way, I sew buttons on my trousers for suspenders and have for years - to hold my pants up. And those boxes in the closet hold 5x Resistol western hats, and I wear White's lace-up boots. I guess I am silly too, but the hobby-horse thing ain't happening!

Axlenut

Sorry but the .44 mag and .45 Colt rifles do not fit that bill beyond 75 yards, if then. A scoped centerfire bolt action in any of a number of calibers is the more responsible choice.

Axlenut

I disagree with your range assessment on the .44 Mag / .45 Colt rifles.

300 grain bullets from either at 1700 fps or so will be effective long past 75 yards.

Maybe 150 is a useful max, considering trajectory. I haven't shot mine at ranges longer than 100 yards, so can't say for sure. But I'm willing to take a shot at a deer at 50 yards with the same load in a handgun, so the rifle certainly adds quite a bit of range to that.

Perfect deer hunting rifle? Probably not..... but ought to be very effective at typical hunting ranges.

Axlenut, I really don't care if you think CAS is silly or competative, whatever your opinion on it, keep it to yourself.
3 Crows, in answer to your question, either the .44 or .45 calibers is suitable for both CAS and hunting deer and possibly black bear, just like you first inquired. Handgun hunters have used these rounds for years, plus you'll be getting extra velocity and distance out of your rifle barrel. Keep in mind that 100 yards should be your self imposed limit, but in the woods this probably won't be a problem. Both my Marlin's in .44 and .45 shoot jacketed hunting loads just as well as CAS loads, which, by the way, are reduced to the SAME levels as the original black powder loads. I found the Marlin Cowboy II limited .44 mag, with it's 24 inch barrel ideal for shooting a match in the morning, and then cleanly and humanly taking deer and hogs that same evening, and within the limits already noted. If you feel a 125-200 yard shot is possible in the places you'll be hunting, then by all means get something that will allow you to reliably put a bullet in your game at those distances. You can also use a 30-30, 38-55, or 45-70 for CAS long range side matches, and there are many cowboy loads available for them. As always, there are many hunting loads for them as well, plus premium ammo makers offer heavy loads for them as well. If you don't like looking "silly" and having fun, maybe sitting on a 55 gallon barrel with a saddle on it, and yelling YEE-HAW after shooting a clean stage, then SASS/CAS might not be for you. So go out to your local club and watch a match, then talk to the guys there. If they don't make a good impression on your, don't join up, but I think you'll be hooked on all that silliness.

Alright guys let's not get into a peeing match over CAS.

Back when I first got into CAS and joined SASS I decided to go with a single caliber. That was .44 Rem Mag and I ain't looked back. You can load the .44 Rem Mag down to meet SASS's puny standards and it will work like a champ in your Marlin 1894 Cowboy II and Ruger Vaquero and Bisley Vaquero. Since I already owned a number of Rugers in this caliber and a couple of rifles in it, it was a no brainer to me.

You can also do the same thing with the .45 Colt caliber, but have to be careful in your selection of firearms or you will be stuck shooting low pressure low velocity loads. Stick with Ruger and Marlin and you won't have anything to worry about.

I hunt with the .44 Rem Mag and never feel undergunned.
Rich

its the hunter not the gun. Pistol caliber carbines work fine hunting at normal range. I havent taken a shot over 200 yards in years. 45/70 rocks as a hunting gun but if Sass is your bag you can get by just fine with a 44mag or45 Colt. Truthfully there will be no difference in the field. I would not worry about 45 having poor performance. Both it and the 44 work fine on live targets.

That said I just got a 44 mag 94 Winny from the old metal butt production years. I just like 44 mag better. I woul;dnt turn downa 45 colt marlin. Just not seen a deal yet.

As for 45/70, my marlin shoots good, but for more than 20 rounds its not fun off the bench. I can shoot a pistol caliber lever gun a long time, even witha steel butt.

As for Cowboy a shooting, you can do fine with acarbine and a pistol. Borrow a spare if you need it and borrow a shotgun or for that matter a 45/70 if you like the sport.

Here's some of Buffalo Bore's heavy loads for both .45 and .44 calibers. Mind you, these are not safe to shoot in the Colt SAA clones or any of the conversion cylinders offered, that turn your cap and ball revolvers in cartridge shooters. Marlin and most of the similar rifles will shoot the hot loads with no problems, but NOT the 1866/Yellowboy type repro's. Ruger pistols handle them fine though, as the Vaquero frame is the same as the Blackhawk's (please correct me if I'm quoting the wrong model).

.44 SPECIAL: 180 gr. JHP 1150fps/M.E.528 ft.lbs.
Yes, it's a .44 special! Others are .44 spl 255gr. KEITH 1000 fps/M.E. 566 ft. lbs.
.44 MAG. 305 gr. LFN 1325 fps/M.E. 1189 ft. lbs.
300 gr. JFN 1300 fps/M.E. 1126 ft. lbs.
270 gr. JFN (expander) 1450 fps/M.E. 1260 ft. lbs.

The .45 Colt is no slouch either:
325 gr. LFN penetrator 1325 fps/M.E. 1267 ft. lbs. Notice that this is a heavier load than the .44 mag. by 20 grains, is going just as fast and has a very, very slight advantage in foot pounds of energy.
300 gr. JFN 1200 fps/M.E. 959 ft. lbs.
Here's what I shot a 160 (ish) pound hog with back in May: 260 grain JHP 1450 fps/M.E. 1214 ft. lbs. (using my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Comp. .45 Colt)
The bullet went through both shoulder blades and he dropped dead right away. Please note, I am not a reloader, so this is not encouragement for those who wish to duplicate these loads; DON'T!, work up a load that suits your needs in a safe and careful manner, and read all the warnings concerning shooting loads from any ammo company. What I am trying to say is that these loads and figures were measured from a pistol, so just think of the increase in velocity you'll get from putting them through a rifle that meets SASS/CAS requirements and is designated safe for heavy loads like the ones previously noted, and just as previous advice has stated, within the limits of the shooter and his particular gun. Pistol cartridges can be great game getters, again, under the right conditions.

Howdy!

Somethin' that nobody's mentioned is the new reproduction Winchester model 1892 in .454 Casull. As most of us know, that's nothin' more than a .45 Colt "Mag".

Now whether that Brazilian import will also shoot .45 Colts is somethin' that I'm not too sure about, but I know that Freedom Arms '97 in .454 Casull will chamber the .45 Colt with no problems.

I'd think it might be somewhat like the .38 special/.357 Mag interchangeability. I'd check with Legacy Sports that imports 'em and check it out. It could be the best of both worlds for ya.

Otto N. Sure
SASS--Life
Territorial Governor--Silver City Shooters
Nevada, Territory

Comment deleted.....error on my part as I didn't see Mike's earlier post.

Dan

Otto, I think that it'll only shoot the .454, and it's only the pistols that will shoot .45 Colt as well. I remember a similar discussion on this or maybe another board, about the interchangablity of the two rounds, but perhaps the design has since been changed on the rifles.
I used .45 Colt "mag." rounds from Buf Bore on a hogs last May, and it was pretty convincing evidence that this fine old round is pretty underated.

Howdy!

Somethin' that nobody's mentioned is the new reproduction Winchester model 1892 in .454 Casull. As most of us know, that's nothin' more than a .45 Colt "Mag".

Now whether that Brazilian import will also shoot .45 Colts is somethin' that I'm not too sure about, but I know that Freedom Arms '97 in .454 Casull will chamber the .45 Colt with no problems.

I'd think it might be somewhat like the .38 special/.357 Mag interchangeability. I'd check with Legacy Sports that imports 'em and check it out. It could be the best of both worlds for ya.

Otto N. Sure
SASS--Life
Territorial Governor--Silver City Shooters
Nevada, Territory

The .454 rifles should chamber a .45 Colt just fine; however feeding through the action may be another matter.

FA revolvers have very tight chambers and they really don't reccomend you shoot .45 Colts in them, crud builds up at the front of the chamber mouths and can cause problems with the longer .454 rounds. Anyway, it can be done, obviously.

After shooting a few 300gr. bullets in my Marlin 1894 at about 1700fps, I'm not sure I *want* to shoot a .454 in a rifle, LOL....

Good Lord Mike! You mean you get a 300 grainer going 1700 fps out of your Marlin? I understand that you'll get 200-300 fps more from a rifle barrel than from pistols, but does your .45 Colt load add 500 fps more?
(mine measure at about 1200 from a 7 1/2 inch pistol; 300 grain)

24" inch barrel.... yeah, it was a real eye-opener for me, too! Same load is good for about 1300fps in a 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk.

24" inch barrel.... yeah, it was a real eye-opener for me, too! Same load is good for about 1300fps in a 7.5" Bisley Blackhawk.

Bet it's a real ear opener, deer opener, pig opener; etc., as well!

Any extraction problems? I didn't have any with any of the heavy .44 mag. or .45 LC "mag." loads, but I was a little shy of your velocity. My Marlin Cowboy Comp. was ready to jack as many shells through it as I had, no problems at all. Maybe it's too purty to be taking it hunting, but what the heck? If you got it, shoot it.

Bet it's a real ear opener, deer opener, pig opener; etc., as well!

Any extraction problems? I didn't have any with any of the heavy .44 mag. or .45 LC "mag." loads, but I was a little shy of your velocity. My Marlin Cowboy Comp. was ready to jack as many shells through it as I had, no problems at all. Maybe it's too purty to be taking it hunting, but what the heck? If you got it, shoot it.

No, it spit every empty right out. Truthfully, those were loads I'd worked up in my Bisley, but I tried a few in the Marlin and didn't have any problems handling them. They did not cycle, but that was before Marshall changed his 300gr. WFNGC mould, the new ones do, but haven't worked up a new load yet (waiting on some surplus WC820 powder).

Hey, I came up with some throat reamers, .452 and 0.453125" (ie 29/64") if you still want to mess with your Blackhawk(s).

No, it spit every empty right out. Truthfully, those were loads I'd worked up in my Bisley, but I tried a few in the Marlin and didn't have any problems handling them. They did not cycle, but that was before Marshall changed his 300gr. WFNGC mould, the new ones do, but haven't worked up a new load yet (waiting on some surplus WC820 powder).

Hey, I came up with some throat reamers, .452 and 0.453125" (ie 29/64") if you still want to mess with your Blackhawk(s).

Nope, I'm down to only one Ruger Vaquero bird's head grip now. I know it'll handle anything a Blackhawk would, but it's going to be mostly for CAS loads with it's 4 5/8 barrel. I'm at a low cycle, especially in the pistol catagory right now, but I am always looking for a deal too good to pass up. You know how those deals go..:eek: Then it'll be a buying spree, all sorts of testing new loads, spring kits, action jobs, then I'll end up selling all but one or two and wishing I hadn't, but that how it is for me. I'm much more of a gun gatherer than a gun collector! Of course, I have extra grips, sights, and ammo for just about every make, model and caliber, just in case, well, for the future, in case I need them......:rolleyes:

I'll ask around if you're looking to get rid of the reamers, but I'd bet you'll get a few takers from just this post alone.

I'm planning on keeping them (tech note about this coming up) and they're so cheap that it's hardly worth trying to sell / ship them.

I'll, uh, 'accumulate' another one, soon enough!

I'm planning on keeping them (tech note about this coming up) and they're so cheap that it's hardly worth trying to sell / ship them.

I'll, uh, 'accumulate' another one, soon enough!

Ah-I misunderstood. Tech notes will be interesting.