I will most likely be moving to AK this December if we get orders as we anticipate so I find myself asking a lot of questions these days.
The bulk of my past experience is hunting in Maine (I'm hooked on moose hunting), and I understand that the Maine woods is tame in comparision to Alaska and the moose are bigger too.
It is evident to me that I need to get a more powerful rifle than my 444 Marlin or 308, so I am looking into a 338 Win Mag or a 338 Rem Ultra Mag. It seems that those are the most versatile cartridges for AK if you are going to use just one rifle. The 338 Win Mag is the MINIMUM that has been recommended to me for big Browns. The problem I am having is the 338 Win Mag ( in a Savage 116 FSAK) has a magazine capacity of 3, and the Ultra Mag has a capacity of 2 but a lot more power and range. So I would like to get some expert Alaskan opinions on that one. I plan on ALWAYS having my 500 S&W on me in the woods, but if a brownie can run upwards of 30mph (and get there quick), I don't know if there is much time to draw, aim, and shoot inside of 150 yards (after firing a rifle) if the bear decides to launch. I have been told to always prepare for an immediate follow-up shot, but I wonder if the added bullet weights, increased load choices ( I handload),and velocity of the Ultra Mag would make up for the extra round in the magazine in the Win Mag?
Could someone give me a hand deciding? If anyone has any other info feel free to tell me.

Disclaimer: I've never been to Alaska.... That being said, I'd go for the 338 WM in the Savage. You've got one more shot in the magazine, and it's (and this is a guess) a proven killer that may be more universally available in stores. I'm also guessing that your .444 will also make things up there pretty dead. I'll be curious to see the replies from more knowledgable Alaskans.

Both are fine. Out to 350-400 yards, I doubt there is a hair's worth of difference between the two. The bullet is what does the work on animals, and the Win Mag version provides enough velocity to get the bullet into is operating velocities to 500 yards or more and velocity is high enough for enough penetration into the vitals and very often completely through animals at most any angle (if using premium bullets) for those ranges. The edge the RUM has is less drop at extreme long ranges. That is out past where I'm comfortable taking shots.

The RUM ammo is harder to find, but if you handload that makes little difference. Brass might be hard to find in stores, but since we have the internet and Sportsman's Warehouse just moved into Anchorage, that is probably a non-issue, too.

What it comes down to is which you had rather have. The Win Mag maybe a little easier to shoot, also might be in a little lighter rifle. If you are going to be using this for bears, I'd recommend a CRF action, something that may or may not be available in the RUM. The Win Mag has no flies on it, but neither does the 340 Wby, 330 Dakota, 8.59 Lazzeroni, or the RUM.

I have always felt that the rifle, itself, is much more important than the cartridge it is chambered for, within reason. Which ever rifle fits you better and you can handle better is probably what you should carry.

Hunting in Alaska is bit different than elsewhere. There aren't a lot of places that you can hunt where you park your truck and head into the woods for the day. Typically you will be on multi-day, float type hunt, fly-in, or backpack hunt. You'll be carrying your rifle while hiking over hill and dale, mountain and glacier. I wouldn't be carrying anymore than I had too. When you are carrying your camp and food on your back for days on end, every ounce counts. Personally I'd leave the big handgun at home if I were carrying any of the rifles you mentioned. Fine for fishing or camping (even then, I'd look for a lighter, shorter handgun), but you don't need it if you are carrying a rifle. You might consider carrying a .22 handgun for pot shooting grouse or ptarmigan, though.

The 338 Win Mag is by far and away the most popular of any of the 1/3" cartridges in Alaska. The RUM version hasn't been around very long, but the Wby Mag version has and doesn't come close to the numbers of the Win Mag version.

Personally, I don't think there is a perfect rifle for all the hunting in AK. I know I don't use one rifle for everything. However, if there are good populations of brown bears in the area I'm hunting and I expect shots to be on the long side, I do carry my 338 Win Mag. If I expect shots on the short side, I plan on carrying the 411 Hawk I had built (just as soon as loads are developed). I think your 444 would be fine for bears, bison, musk ox, and moose at close to medium ranges if loaded properly. The 308 will work fine for deer, goats, sheep, elk, caribou, moose, black bear.

How valuable do you think is the ability to load a 300grain bullet with the 338RUM versus a 250-270Grain bullet with the 338Win Mag? I know what this means in terms of energy and max effective range, but I don't yet know what the true practical application of those numbers would be since I have never even seen, let alone shot a Brown Bear.
I need to get off the fence pretty soon and choose, I already ordered the 116FSAK in the 338Win Mag but have just a few days to change the order. I was thinking I like having one more in the magazine, and like having 8 ounces less weight to carry (I still plan on carrying the 500 with the 8 3/8" barrel, I have grown quite fond of it and will cut weight elsewhere to accomodate him). There was also the issue of less recoil in the Win Mag, but since I handload I might be able to fix some of that in the RUM.
I guess I am splitting hairs, but I really want to know if the 300 vs 250 grainer/ 3 shots vs 4 is going to make any difference with a well-placed shot?

In practical hunting situations, I don't think it will matter one whit between the 250 and other heavier slugs. The 250 Nosler Partition is a stout bullet, as are other premium bullets. They will handle any hunting situation at "normal" ranges very well. I do know some folks really liked the Speer 270 grain, but not enough seemed to have liked because Speer dropped it from their line.

The best selling 300 grain .338 bullet would probably be the Sierra Match King, definitely not a bear bullet. That bullet was designed for long range target punching. Nothing more, nothing less. I'd take the 230 grain FailSafe, 240 grain North Fork, or 250 grain Nosler Partition over it any day for hunting. I'm not much in the loop with stuff over 250 grain bullets, but I think the Match King offering may be the only 300 grainer available in any quantity. It is NOT a game bullet.

What the Win Mag can do with the 230-250 grain bullets, so can the RUM. Personally, I'd take the Win Mag, but that is just me. The RUM can do everything the Win Mag can, but it does come at a cost of more expensive loading and more recoil. Something about the Win Mag, I still think Winchester should have named it the 338 Alaskan Express. Indeed Winchester's original M70 offering in the 338 was aptly dubbed "The Alaskan".

3 or 4 shots, I don't think you need worry. The only time you will be using that many is if you don't do your job on the first one and/or second one. IF you botch the first shot on a big bear, you will have your hands full and a thousand round clip in a BAR isn't going to make you feel better. Keep in mind, almost every hunter I know up here hikes and spots game with an empty chamber. It's only when the shot is immenient is the round chambered. When visibility is low and bears are in the area, the gun is in your hands, the round is chambered and the safety is on. I don't know anybody that climbs the hills, or goes into the woods while going to or coming from the spot/stalk routine that has a round chambered. If you are actively stalking, yes the round is in the chamber, but not before.

The only time I would use the 270 or heavier grained bullets in the 338 would be for bear protection loads. But sounds like you have that covered with the 500 S&W.

The best part of your dilemma is you really can't go wrong with either. It's up to you and what you want.

Let us know what you decide, and how it works for you!

Thanks, that was a big help. I just told my dealer to go ahead with the Win Mag. The next thing on my list of things to is mount a scope on it, I put Leupolds on my other rifles because I have aleays liked their customer service, and their sight picture seems very clear to me. I am contemplating just going with the VXII 2x8x33mm and not going with a bigger (40 or 50mm) objective. I am not sure if I will need it, but if I do, I could always swap it with my Tactical 3.5x10x50mm. What kind of scope do you run on your all purpose rig?

Oh by the way, I have a younger brother that thinks his 7mm Rem Mag is suitable for Brown Bear. I told him that I thought he needed a little more gun than that, although I firmly believe that it would do the job if he had good bullet placement, and is probably great for everything else, but from what I have heard the 7mm could come up a little short. I have heard of people taking everything on the North American continent with the 30-06, but I dont know if that is really prudent. Feel free to give feedback on his 7mm, I am curious to know if my suspicions are correct.

Smokinjoe,

I've been involved in only 3 Brown Bear kills, (30-06,and 2 300win mags) All 3 were broken down with the first shot. ALL required a second shot. I guess what I am trying to say is either one you choose you can't go wrong. As long as you do your part the bear will never know the difference between a win mag and a RUM. Also, as said earlier brass is more readily available in the win. If you ever find yourself in Galena, Dillingham,Illiamna, etc... and you forget to pack or your ammo was lost in route. Good luck finding RUM.

P.S. I have a 340 Wby only because it was giving to me. Darn the luck. Mostly I use a 300Winny. Just shoot too good not to:)

All of my rifles wear the Leupold VariX-III's. I personally don't care for the 50mm objectives, especially on something like the 338. One thing is that they are heavier and more bulky. Two, most of the time, you have to use a higher base/ring setup. Trust me, on something like the 338, you want the scope as low as possible. If you have to lift your head up unnaturally to see through the scope, you will feel recoil much worse.

My 338's have worn 1.5-5's, 1.75-6 (current setup), and 2.5-8x.

As for the 7mm Mag, a lot of big bears have fallen to them. Warren Page used his 7mm Mashburn Mag almost exclusively when he hunted in Alaska. It would work fine with 175 grain well constructed bullets 99% of the time, probably. I wouldn't want to go into the alders after a wounded bear with a 7mm. I think you'll be much more comfortable with the 338. I've seen a lot of moose shot with all kinds of cartridges, and there is a difference in killing effect between the 7mm and the 338. The 338 will shoot flat enough for sheep and goat, in a rifle that isn't too heavy to lug up and down the mountains. It'll handle the big bears also, but in a lighter rifle than the 375 H&H or the various over 40 cal rifles.

Well, I think I'll tell my brother that he had better let me work up some loads for his 7mm if he intends to keep it. As for me, it sounds as if I will do well with my choice of the Savage 116FSAK 338 Win Mag equiped with a VX-II or III variable with a 33mm or 40mm objective.

Joe, just a thought - but if you are hunting bear or in an area where you expect big brownies, you could always bring along some heavy (300gr) loads and put at least one in the bottom of the magazine for a stopper @ close (closer) range where you won't need the velocity as much as the power & penetration....

I don't know how anyone feels about 12ga slugs as backup or bearstoppers, but James Gates new TERMINATOR Slug pushing a 745gr .73 caliber "bullet" in a fully rifled barrel @ 1350fps is awfully impressive. He's sorting out an entirely new (PREDATOR) dual purpose version (for smoothbore & fully rifled barrels) that will be a little less weight and more velocity, but the same hard cast construction with a ½" diameter meplat on the nose. Park Rangers & State Troopers in Alaska take out problem bears each year with 12ga slugs... The new Terminator & Predator slugs will hopefully make their job safer and easier when it's available in Alaska.

Just noted that Benelli is offering their 12ga M1-Super 90 "Interia" auto with a 24" fully rifled barrel with rifle sights now, too... Everyone is picking up on the big bore slug rage right now.

GOOD LUCK IN ALASKA!! ;)

Hawk makes a 300gr bullet for the 338 win mag, and will put the crimp groove where you want it as well. thats the thing I like about the 338 it likes big heavy bullets, throws a heavy bullet farther and flatter with authority, than a lighter one. I would like to add if your hunting Alaska go with a all weather rifle, you won't regret it. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

thats the thing I like about the 338 it likes big heavy bullets, throws a heavy bullet farther and flatter with authority, than a lighter one.

I don't get this statement Rick. What I have found shooting the 338 Win Mag, for most long range hunting, bullets in the 225-230 grain weights are ideal for that work. The 250's just can't match them. Anything over 250 and drop becomes more pronounced. The 225-230 grain weights, when loaded near the top seem to be a little flatter than the 200 or 210 grain loads. I do have some 215 grain Sierra's, but haven't tried them yet.

Alaska338 sorry I did not state that right, I ment the 338win mag throws a bigger bullets better than most other carts like the 30 cals that seem to like 150-200gr bullets, well I found 225gr-300gr bullets shot the best in my Ruger Mark II, I read a artilce it was written bye Elmer Keith he was testing the 338 win mag, he stated he found the bigger heaver bullets 250gr-300gr where more accurate with reaching out past 250 yards,were not as wild as the lighter bullets, also had better penatration than the smaller 200gr bullets, can't remember where I read this article, Getting old LOL. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Thank you all for the input, I think I will be heading in the right direction with the Savage "Weather Warrior" Model 116FSAK in the 338 Win Mag. It is a stainless rifle with a synthetic stock, adjustable muzzle brake, and the "AccuTrigger"(which is adjustable as well).

As for the 12ga, Those new .73 slugs sound awesome (3015 Ft/lbs), and just immagine the penetration. Talk about momentum and surface area(remember that the surface area is a multiplier too). I think my wife is going to carry that when we are out with our kids who will be 4 and 5 when we get there. She is a decent shot with her Glock19, but I don't think she will do anything except annoy a bear with that. I am working at getting her up to speed with the defensive shotgun.

Concerning the bullet selection for the 338, I am thinking about starting with two basic loads; one for distance, and one for heavy penetration under 250 yds. Has anyone used the Barnes 250gr solid RN? I will most likely try the others that have been suggested as well. Also, If anyone can remember what publication the Elmer Keith article was in I would greatly appreciate it.

Here is some food for thought from Elmer Keith, but this is not the article I spoke about, still always a good read if Elmer writes it. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/33_0624/index.html

A very good read indeed. It makes the RUM sound intriguing, but for the sake of ammo availability in AK I will most likely stick with the Win Mag until the RUM gets popular there.

I was looking at the Barnes website and noticed that they claim the same results (penetration)from their 225gr solid copper as one would get from a 250gr lead core from another brand, if that is so one could probably get a few more fps and a little flatter trajectory & range, making the 338 Win even more versitile in regards to terrain. Thoughts anyone?

You probably can squeeze a few more feet per second, I'm not exactly sure about the penetration part. As the saying goes, I'll believe it when I see it. :D

One thing to consider when using the Barnes X bullets is Barnes recommends seating them a little further off the lands than conventional bullets with a lead core. Recommendations are to start around 0.050" off the lands. Also, the Barnes X, since it is a solid bullet, is longer for weight than conventional bullets, so even the 225 grain seated .050" off the lands and it being long, you may intrude into your powder capacity as much as the 250 grain Nosler. They are great bullets, there's no doubt about that. Some rifles like them, some don't. They copper foul barrels worse than conventional bullets also, so if you have a barrel that suffers copper fouling, the X may not be for you. My Ruger barrel is one such. It's accurate, but fouls terribly, even worse so with the X. Some have noted higher pressures when using the X bullets, but I wonder if that is because they don't back them off the lands enough or not.

There's the North Fork line, they offer a 225 and 240 grain .338" bullet. I've just received a couple boxes to start working on loads this spring. I'll let you know how the Ruger No.1 likes them. Reports have been outstanding on performance. The 230 grain FailSafe is another exceptional bullet. I've never recovered one from game animals. I can't say that they out penetrate any other bullet, but I've never recovered one. I haven't found a super accurate load with it, but accurate enough for my hunting style and circumstances.

The bullets I found performed very well using the Ruger MarkII M77 338 win mag. The Nosler BT 200gr, Barnsx 225gr, Hornadys SST 225gr, Speers Grandslams 250gr, Hawks 300gr...All these bullets performed very well, Note: funny how the 338win can shoot all these different bullets and still with out adjustment of the scope or sights all hit a 4 inch area at 100 yards, not many carts can do that using different weight bullets ;) Just my observations while working up loads last year...To me the 338 win mag is a 30/06 on steroids LOL. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

You cant go wrong with the 338winny. Very good choice. I only use mine for caribou and mountain critters. Most of the areas I hunt I am lucky to get a 100yard shot so I use my 45/70 and 35whelen. Your 444 is a good choice along with the 308.

Where are hoping to get stationed? anchorage or Fairbanks?

As for bullets, I would be happy with a 225gr (lightside) and a 250gr premium bullet. Luckily my savage loves 250gr barnes X, and right now I'm working up a load with 225gr XLC's.

I use a 3x9 on my 338. used to have 1.5x5 but it found a new home on my whelen.

Overall it sounds like you have yourself a good 3 gun battery for up here.

You cant go wrong with the 338winny. Very good choice. I only use mine for caribou and mountain critters. Most of the areas I hunt I am lucky to get a 100yard shot so I use my 45/70 and 35whelen. Your 444 is a good choice along with the 308.

Where are hoping to get stationed? anchorage or Fairbanks?

As for bullets, I would be happy with a 225gr (lightside) and a 250gr premium bullet. Luckily my savage loves 250gr barnes X, and right now I'm working up a load with 225gr XLC's.

I use a 3x9 on my 338. used to have 1.5x5 but it found a new home on my whelen.

Overall it sounds like you have yourself a good 3 gun battery for up here.

We are hoping to get stationed at Elmendorf; my wife is Regular AF Nurse, I am AFRES looking for a billet in the AK ANG. We are told that there is a "high degree of probability" that the orders will come through for her. Meanwhile, we are eagerly awaiting the orders. If it does not happen, I plan on seeking a commission in the Public Health Service in a few years and moving to AK anyway. Also, my youngest brother is planning to move there from Maine in June 2005.
Where are you located? Is Alyeska338 in Anchorage? What do you do for a livelyhood?

Scope question: Would a 33mm objective lense be enough for the light conditions in the winter, or should I use a 40mm obj lense?

Smokin' - What part of Maine for your brother?

If you want a year round scope up here I'd stick with the middle range IMO. There aint a scope big enough to help with light up here in the winter time. Our shortest day is about 4-5 hours of sunlight. welose light and gain it pretty fast. were up to about 15hours of light right now. Its 7:30 AM right now and its blinding me coming in my window.

I spent 4 years on elmendorf. real nice base. They built a new hospital about 5 years ago and its very nice. Right now I'm in Anchorage. We are hoping to move out of town this year. Anchorage is nice, it has everything but way to big and congested for us. I warn ya though this place gets in your blood and ya wont want to leave :D

Smokin' - What part of Maine for your brother?

Bangor. Where are you?

If you want a year round scope up here I'd stick with the middle range IMO. There aint a scope big enough to help with light up here in the winter time. Our shortest day is about 4-5 hours of sunlight. welose light and gain it pretty fast. were up to about 15hours of light right now. Its 7:30 AM right now and its blinding me coming in my window.

I spent 4 years on elmendorf. real nice base. They built a new hospital about 5 years ago and its very nice. Right now I'm in Anchorage. We are hoping to move out of town this year. Anchorage is nice, it has everything but way to big and congested for us. I warn ya though this place gets in your blood and ya wont want to leave :D

We dont like congestion. How much is housing outside the city?

Depends on how far you are willing to drive? You can live in wasilla/palmer area and find a nice duplex or house for around $700 or so. But its a good hour drive, longer in the winterplus that area is getting overcrowded. Housing sucks up here, you gotta look hard. the market cant keep up with the number of people moving up. It took us over a year to get on base housing at the time. Best thing to do is to get ahold of the housing office on elmendorf and have them send you a list of whats available in the civilain sector. it will give you an idea atleast.

Smokin' - Southport Island, attached to Boothbay Harbor by bridge. 2 1/2 hours from Bangor. Bangor's a nice place. All the services, not very big, and close to some great hunting. Huge airstrip - they landed Concordes there a few times.

I did some work last year on penetration of bullets for my own .338 magnums. I came to the conclusion that of ALL the bullets that are available for the .338 mag, I want the 275 grain "SWIFT A FRAME" in my magazine when it comes to yours truley meeting up with any and all bears.

All I can say is, the A Frame 275 grainer is one very tuff bullet and penetrates deeply on tests that I ran with A Frames and other brands of bullets. I don't know how the 300 grain "Woodleighs" would have been because I couldn't get my hands on any at the time. I have a hard time believeing they would have bested the SWIFT A FRAMES.

I did some work last year on penetration of bullets for my own .338 magnums. I came to the conclusion that of ALL the bullets that are available for the .338 mag, I want the 275 grain "SWIFT A FRAME" in my magazine when it comes to yours truley meeting up with any and all bears.

All I can say is, the A Frame 275 grainer is one very tuff bullet and penetrates deeply on tests that I ran with A Frames and other brands of bullets. I don't know how the 300 grain "Woodleighs" would have been because I couldn't get my hands on any at the time. I have a hard time believeing they would have bested the SWIFT A FRAMES.

I think I'll try both the Swift and the Woodleighs when I finaly get the rifle from Savage. It's on order...

Smokin' - Southport Island, attached to Boothbay Harbor by bridge. 2 1/2 hours from Bangor. Bangor's a nice place. All the services, not very big, and close to some great hunting. Huge airstrip - they landed Concordes there a few times.

You've got that right about the hunting, I lived there for six years. Thats where I became addicted to moose meat. I moved back to Texas a little over a year ago and my moose meat is almost gone (I only have a little hamburger left), and I have to get some more!!!!
Have you ever tried moose smoked in a BBQ pit with mesquite wood?

Moose jerky smoked with mesquite is GREAT!!!!

Smokin Joe,
You'll have to get used to alder smoke up here, unless you want to pay through the nose for mesquite chips. You can buy mesquite chips, but alder is abundant (and I hate it so intensly in its living form) that you must declare it to be your smoking wood. :D After a few moose hunts, you will learn to despise it as well, trust me.

Woodleigh and Swift makes a heckuva bullet. My gunsmith has had problems with the A-Frame spitting the lead out of the back of the bullet on big moose when fired from his 375 Wby Mag. I've never experienced it myself, but he has a few bullets in his shop that happened to.

Woodleighs are well known worldwide for their penetration.

Hey guys don't forget the Nosler Partition/Accubond/failsafe this is a good game getter's for sure, these bullets are well built for penetration, no bullet separation even shooting through one inch steal plate;) I did recover a few bullets after they passed through the steal plate,bullets held together near 100%, I'm a firm believer of the Noslers, I think the newer bullets of todays standards are much better than even ten years ago, the construction is different, using a bonding science and a partition so there is no separation, just great driving power. For me the Nosler Partition/accubond/failsafe would be my pick for big dangerous game,for bigbore handgun's the Nosler Partition HG.These bullets are on the $$$ side but I guess if you can afford a trip to alaska you can afford a good quality bullets to assure your kill be quick and humane,not saying the other bullets mention are not adequate, they are also well know field tested as well, what ever you choose, good luck and bring home a monster for us to admire. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

I have to agree with you there. I've been using the FailSafe (Black Talon) since Winchester first introduced them. Both in factory loads and handloads. The 230 grain FailSafe might be the best all around bullet for the 338, in my opinion. It's a tough bullet, and like I posted earlier, I've never recovered one on game. The 230 grain weight and shape make it an excellent medium to long range hunting bullet. It's construction and penetrating ability make it an excellent short range stopper also. I haven't found a load that gives spectacular accuracy with the FailSafe yet, but am averaging just around 1 MOA or a tiny bit more with it.

I am going to give North Fork bullets a try this year, though. Hoping I can whittle the groups down a bit and this bullet should do everything that FailSafe or Barnes X does, with a little more reliable expansion at lower velocities. We'll see.

Smokin Joe,
You'll have to get used to alder smoke up here, unless you want to pay through the nose for mesquite chips. You can buy mesquite chips, but alder is abundant (and I hate it so intensly in its living form) that you must declare it to be your smoking wood. :D After a few moose hunts, you will learn to despise it as well, trust me.

Dont worry, I'll keep my chainsaws good and ready:D!

I hope the alder isn't as hard as mesquite. At least it won't have thorns, and be full of fire ants... :D

Nah, it's not very hard wood. As for thorns, the Devil's Club has the all the bases covered there. I'm not sure where you will end up hunting Joe, but look out for the worst brush you've ever encountered along the "Lost Coast". Some huge moose and bears in there, but dang, it's a mess.

Smokin' - Now you got my mouth watering. Alder, mesquite, either one - I love barbecue. That sounds like a good way to fix a moose. Tell your brother: Spring Creek Barbecue in Monson, Maine.....better than Angelino's in Ft. Worth, well, at least as good. Not very far from Bangor. Ribs, cole slaw, beans.....I'm headed!

Nah, it's not very hard wood. As for thorns, the Devil's Club has the all the bases covered there. I'm not sure where you will end up hunting Joe, but look out for the worst brush you've ever encountered along the "Lost Coast". Some huge moose and bears in there, but dang, it's a mess.

I may end up at Eielson instead of Elmendorf, but we will see. We should know by June or July. As for the Devil's Club, how does is compare to Honey Locust, Mesquite, or Osage Orange? Should I wear some chaps when I anticipate it, or will it not do much good?

Smokin' - Now you got my mouth watering. Alder, mesquite, either one - I love barbecue. That sounds like a good way to fix a moose. Tell your brother: Spring Creek Barbecue in Monson, Maine.....better than Angelino's in Ft. Worth, well, at least as good. Not very far from Bangor. Ribs, cole slaw, beans.....I'm headed!

If you are ever in Fort Worth, check out Risky's at the stockyards for some of the best all you can eat beef ribs you will ever taste (in a resturant), or visit their origional location at NW 28th and Azle Ave for some sliced brisket sandwiches. I lived in Fort Worth for 12 years; awesome place, and some great people. Oh, I have been to Spring Creek in Monson Maine; have two friends from that town. It's like a little BBQ oasis for the deprived.

Smokin' - Been to Risky's - we really enjoyed our meal there, too.

What's more important, hunting or barbecue? Now I'm getting in over my head.

The Keith peice is likely in "guns and ammo for big game hunting", a book he wrote many years ago. It is available used from several sources off and on, and some librarys have a copy.

I wouldn't discount the wifes's 9mm. It certainly wouldn't be a first choice for a bear gun, but the penetration of the caliber makes it usable in a "contact distance" situation, (head shots at arms length or less) considering she would carry a shotgun for a primary gun. There was a profesional hunter in Africa that used a 9mm Browning for finishing shots on elephants, shot them in the back of the head. Full metal jacket bullets penetrate very well, hollow points do not

I may end up at Eielson instead of Elmendorf, but we will see. We should know by June or July. As for the Devil's Club, how does is compare to Honey Locust, Mesquite, or Osage Orange? Should I wear some chaps when I anticipate it, or will it not do much good?

I'm not familiar with honey locust, mesquite or osage but devils club isnt that bad as long as you dont grab it, or fall in it :D

I'd leave the chaps. Just wear good solid pants and you wont have a problem.

Personnally I like eilson better than elmendorf. I was never stationed there but I like the interior alot better than South Central. Alot colder in the winter time and also alot hotter in the summer. Nicer people, smaller towns, good hunting, what more can you ask for?

I'm not familiar with honey locust, mesquite or osage but devils club isnt that bad as long as you dont grab it, or fall in it :D

I'd leave the chaps. Just wear good solid pants and you wont have a problem.

Personnally I like eilson better than elmendorf. I was never stationed there but I like the interior alot better than South Central. Alot colder in the winter time and also alot hotter in the summer. Nicer people, smaller towns, good hunting, what more can you ask for?

Sounds like Devils Club is pretty nasty but not like the clusters of 3"-9" thorns (spikes) on the Honey Locust. I had one go through the sole of a work boot and completely through my foot once, what an infection!:eek:

Now I'm hoping we go to Eielson.:cool:

SmokinJOE............I have a couple of 338 mags and used the Bear Claws when in Africa hunting plains game. However in bear country I decided last year after running tests, to use the Swift A Frames in the 250 grain bullet. I like the 275 grainers if your going after bear in particular. They are a very tuff bullet and give a perfect mushroom 90% of the time as well as retain over 90% of their original weight.

My hunting rifles are ALL CRF model 70 actions!

Big bears can cover 40 yards in 3.5 to 3.8 seconds give or take. So I would keep that magazine full of the heavier weight bullet for what you intend to hunt, if charged by a bear, you won't likely get a second shot off in time if that bear is already within 40 yards of you.

I also have a wildcat in a model 70 Winchester that is a 338/300 Ultra mag........It does have more muzzle jump and kicks harder than the 338 mag. Up close that bear is NOT going to know the difference between them. However I am sure you will be able to shoot the 338 mag much better.

Reloading recently did an interesting article on the RUM but I would dare say its benefits are limited by availability of ammo. Your current arsenal sounds fine but then I would never suggest that you should have another tool in the toolbox.
Bears are beautiful animals but shot placement is the key. Anchor the bear on the first shot.
Use a bullet that can penetrate deeply and break bones. Go through the lung/ heart and take out a foreleg. Then you have the time to use a second shot if needed. You do not want to track a wounded bear as they have a nasty habit of hiding in thick growth and waiting for you.
Heavier .30 cal and up will do the job. Don't discount your .308 as it works just fine with a good bullet. I lean towards heavier lead on heavier game. What you give up in initial velocity you gain in ultimate stopping power.
That .500 will do a fine job also. As of yet I haven't had the fortune to drop a brown beyond 100 yards and the Smith has the ability to reach that distance easily and effectively.

SmokinJoe!........I love the .338 caliber for a fact and do have several in different setups, including a wildcat 338/300 Ultra Mag.

However, I will cut to the chase and give you the same advice that a very well known Big Brown Bear Hunter (who was a legend in his time) told me years ago! "If your going to hunt the bigs bears in Alaska, best you get yourself a .375H&H" I followed his advice shortly after having a near catastrophe with a large bear.

I was carrying a 300 mag at the time. However, that .375H&H with 300 grain bullets is a Bear Thumper! I gave that 375H&H rifle to my son and now use a .416 Remington mag in a model 70 Winchester with a 350 grain Swift A Frame bullet for serious bear hunting. It is a Bear Stopper!

SmokinJoe!........I love the .338 caliber for a fact and do have several in different setups, including a wildcat 338/300 Ultra Mag.

However, I will cut to the chase and give you the same advice that a very well known Big Brown Bear Hunter (who was a legend in his time) told me years ago! "If your going to hunt the bigs bears in Alaska, best you get yourself a .375H&H" I followed his advice shortly after having a near catastrophe with a large bear.

I was carrying a 300 mag at the time. However, that .375H&H with 300 grain bullets is a Bear Thumper! I gave that 375H&H rifle to my son and now use a .416 Remington mag in a model 70 Winchester with a 350 grain Swift A Frame bullet for serious bear hunting. It is a Bear Stopper!

Just acquired a Savage 116FSAK in 338 Win Mag. After I get my house ready to go on the market I will be busy working on some loads for it. I am starting with the heavies first (250-275gr). I have also picked up a Marlin 1895GS in 45/70, and am thinking about what I want to carry in it. I will be living in the Fairbanks/North Pole area and plan on running a trapline in the winter, and spending a considerable amount of time out in the woods. My wife and or kids will be with me most of the time, so I won't be taking any foolish chances with them; I have taken quite a liking to carrying my S&W 500 whenever I am out now (not much in TX that my 45ACP can't handle but I just like the way that 500 shoots and feels). If all else fails, I will have my 12ga pump waiting on or in whatever I will be riding or driving and I will get my wife to become almost as intimate with it as she is with me. I like to overplan for contingencies because past experiences as a Firefighter/EMT on the street and in the woods have taught me that you just never know what could happen (I have seen and heard a lot of strange things). So, hopefully I will be OK in the "bear thumpin' " department.
I realy appreciate your input about the 375H&H or bigger, I will most likely acquire one of those as well, but for now I chose the 338 Win Mag for it's versatility and availability of ammo in AK based on the info posted earlier in this thread.

Anything you would like to share about the near-catastrophe? There is usually more than just one lesson to learn and I am all ears.

Joe

Joe,
If you haven't shot a rifle in the class of the 338 or 375 before, I'd start off with some 210 or 225 grain loads, just to get use to the rifle. Move up to the 250's after becoming familiar with it.

Fairbanks and North Pole area have some bears, but nothing quite as large as the coastal bruins, so the 338 with 250's will serve you well. On your winter trap line, I'd surely try to get a 223 or 6mm for predator shooting. You won't need the big boomer in the winter for trapping, but shots at wolves could get fairly long.

Maybe Coldfingers can chime in here, he lives, hunts and guides in that area.

Joe,
On your winter trap line, I'd surely try to get a 223 or 6mm for predator shooting. You won't need the big boomer in the winter for trapping, but shots at wolves could get fairly long.

Maybe Coldfingers can chime in here, he lives, hunts and guides in that area.

Some old timers might chuckle, but I was wondering if my Bushmaster AR-15 would be legal? It is quite accurate and I have a 10rd mag for it and can obtain a 5rd mag if needed. Besides, it's the only 223 I own. Does anyone know if there is a mag capacity limit for predators?

I don't think your ten round magazines would be illegal. That AR would be a good light setup too.

Here's the website for the Hunting and Trapping regs.
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/regulations/allregs.cfm

I don't think your ten round magazines would be illegal. That AR would be a good light setup too.

Here's the website for the Hunting and Trapping regs.
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/regulations/allregs.cfm
I just moved from Eielson a month ago, we spent 5 years there, and miss it terribly. I carried either a 45/70 or .300 Win Mag for hunting, as far as the pistol goes, I carried a variety from .44 to .454, but mostly my .45 Colt, it is a last ditch insurance plan. When you start hiking through the muskeg, and across the tundra, you will find that weight does become an issue. I would say the best moose hunting in that area is either off the Rex trail, the Wood river, or across the Tanana from North Pole. The .338 should serve you well, I would personally find a good 225gr or 230gr load for the interior, if you do any caribou hunting the flatter trajectory can come in handy. For the GS, a good hardcast bullet of over 400grs is all you need, don't sell the .444 short either, moose hunting in the area is often in some really thick stuff and shots aren't very long. I took a nice grizzly in Sept. '02 with my .300, but my 45/70 would have worked just as well (I was inbetween 45/70s at the time), shot him at 82 yards. People are friendly in that entire area, the Eielson BX has a decent gun counter, and even sells some reloading supplies, prices are higher due to being near the end of the supply chain, but not really any worse than California. Be prepared for long winters, and beautiful but short summers. Wish you well, and when I retire from the Air Force in 20 months, hope to move back up there, maybe do some hunting.

Dave

Thanks for the info Beeman, we will be arriving in August at Eielson so I won't have much time to scout the area. All I realy want to shoot this fall is a moose, next year I want to go all out though.

I sold the 444 in order to get the 45/70, can't wait to use it.

Joe, I figure I'd throw my two cents worth in here, I've never hunted Alaska, but I have used my 338 for evrything from field rifle competion shooting to prarie dogs to deer, and I have found in my experience that the best all around bullet in mine has beed the 225gr regardless of brand. It seems to have the best balance between weight and velocity, and when you get out there a ways, it looks even better because of retained energy and such. I have loaded everything in it from the 180gr to the 270's and while it shot the bigger stuff good, the middle weight stuff just really seemed to shine, kinda like a 180gr in a 30-06, it's just hard to beat. I would also recommend North Fork Technologies, they are made about 20 miles from my house here, and although they are costly, they are some really good bullets, and Mike (the owner) is a great guy to deal with. Keep us informed on how it goes.

George

P.S. I forgot to mention, my rifle is a Ruger M77 in 338WM

Joe, I figure I'd throw my two cents worth in here, I've never hunted Alaska, but I have used my 338 for evrything from field rifle competion shooting to prarie dogs to deer, and I have found in my experience that the best all around bullet in mine has beed the 225gr regardless of brand. It seems to have the best balance between weight and velocity, and when you get out there a ways, it looks even better because of retained energy and such. I have loaded everything in it from the 180gr to the 270's and while it shot the bigger stuff good, the middle weight stuff just really seemed to shine, kinda like a 180gr in a 30-06, it's just hard to beat. I would also recommend North Fork Technologies, they are made about 20 miles from my house here, and although they are costly, they are some really good bullets, and Mike (the owner) is a great guy to deal with. Keep us informed on how it goes.

George

P.S. I forgot to mention, my rifle is a Ruger M77 in 338WM

Thanks, I will definitely make an effort to work up some 225 - 230 grain loads and give them a try. However, I don't anticipate having much time to work on any handloading until this winter. Moose season will be comming up shortly after I get to Alaska, and I probably won't get much time to do any good scouting beforehand. I plan on just settling in and if I happen upon the right situation I will get a moose. Next year should be a different story...:D

Good luck and good shooting. Man I would love to go up there and hunt, I'd have to visit before I'd know if I wanted to leave Wyoming for good, don't know that I could find a job there. One of these day's I'll go hunting there, I just gotta strike oil first since I don't have any rich uncles.

Somekin Joe...........Alasyka338 knows what is going on in his state and can give advise only most of us can speculate about in all honesty.

I am glad you have the 338 win mag! I know that using the Swift A Frames in 250 or 275 will do you justice in any of those would be bear encounters. Your 45/70 will work well also up close with the right loads, however I don't really trust the action on the lever guns for such critters in the wild.

I wish I was 30 years younger and could be in your shoes now by golly, I envy your opportunity to be in one of the best places on the planet for a hunter and one who enjoys the wild.
Good Luck to ya! :) :) :)

I own a .338 Win. -- But wish I had the Ultra .

BECAUSE : -- In AK . , the chances of needing Dangerous-Game capability ( i.e. an exceedingly dependable weapon to face a charge with ) , is increased ) .

Brown Bears , Interior Grizzly , and wounded Moose are determined , tough animals , and when stoaked with adrenaline , -- will eat a lot of lead , and still kill you .

Non-Belted cases stack without all the wobble points , and FEED , without all the wobble points -- thus , a more reliable feed .

Make sure to get a Bolt-gun with CONTROLLED FEED ! ---
( same reason as above ) .

But , woe unto the unfortunate hunter that faces a Brownie or charging Bull-Moose with a .338 of any kind ; -- many documented cases of multiple hits with .338 not STOPPING an enraged Brown Bear , as well as Interior Griz .

The Editor of " Bear Hunting Magazine " , ( who is also an African Pro - Hunter ( I think ) ) , once said that .458 Win . W/ soft Point , is about as good as it gets to stop a Brown Bear CHARGE . --- That's an Opinion to be studied very closely . ---- These Critters charge at 40 ft per Second !

IMHO , --- in AK , hunt open country with a .338 Ultra , and 250 Gr. A-Frames , otherwise , and/or if in high-population Bear Range , hunt with a .375 H&H or larger , ( unless your partner has a .458 as backup ) .

My son now lives in Alaska , --- advised him to review S. Herrero Phd. 's book - " Bear attacks " before moving up there .

--------------- Best of luck , --- MMCOUGAR .

Prolly been posted in here and I missed it, but oh well.

Alyeska 338-

The 215 grain Sierras shoot .50MOA in my .338 Ruger and have proven to be capable os 3 feet of penetration at 135 yards - not too shabby for a "light" bullet.

I also wanted to point out something that seems to be overlooked. I wrote an article about the SAKO .375 H&H carbine - yes, I said carbine, for the 1994 Gun Digest. It is light, fast, as accurate as I can shoot and recoil is not even noticed when hunting.

I used the 235 grain Speer bullet at just over 2,800 fps as my "deer load" and back it up with good solids ( Hornady or Woodleigh) when the potential for bigger, nastier animals is in the cards. There are many good solids out there.

Cast bullets for general use on deer and smaller meat animals out to 200 yards saves money, recoil is almost nonexistant, and the accuracy is just over 1.75 MOA for five rounds at 100 yards.

TheSAKO carbines are hard to find, but if I run into another one for sale I will grab it just to make sure that I have a back-up. As much as I like the .338 the .375 carbine has much to appreciate in a light, handy package.

My other "serious" rifle for dangerous nasties is my old Valmet double wearing the 9.3x74 Rimmed and the 12 guage barrel. I call this my lion and leopard gun. A good heavy bullet, such as the Woodleigh offers lots of range and punch while the 12 guage lets me take birds for the pot and load Benneke slugs or buckshot when something that can bite is in the puckerbush. Having this much stopping power with two twitches of my trigger finger is comforting. Of course I use the iron sights in the puckerbush and the Valmet comes up like a shotgun and almost, but not quite, shoots itself.

I don't know if Beretta, who now owns Valmet, will be bringing these back but I hope they do. They are strong, simple, and relatively inexpensive. They are also fairly light for the horsepower provided. With a couple sets of barrels they are a pretty good "all around hunting tool."


Bluesman

I don't get this statement Rick. What I have found shooting the 338 Win Mag, for most long range hunting, bullets in the 225-230 grain weights are ideal for that work. The 250's just can't match them. Anything over 250 and drop becomes more pronounced. The 225-230 grain weights, when loaded near the top seem to be a little flatter than the 200 or 210 grain loads. I do have some 215 grain Sierra's, but haven't tried them yet.

I lived in Alasaka for seven years and used the 338 win mag for everything such as sitka deer, carribou,moose.bears,and Dall sheep,at ranges up to 400 plus yards and found it to be perfectly up to the task. I used 250 grain partions loaded to 2797 fps. Today I use the barnes 225 grain tripple shocks.I also would recomend the 230 fail safe.Knowing ones rifle is more important than trojectory.I have rebarrelled my rifle with a Krieger match grade hand lapped barrel work done by Jack Huntington In Grass Valley Ca. 530-268-6877. the gun shoots .5" @ 100yards and Cronographs 3050fps, with Superior factory ammunition.

You probably can squeeze a few more feet per second, I'm not exactly sure about the penetration part. As the saying goes, I'll believe it when I see it. :D

One thing to consider when using the Barnes X bullets is Barnes recommends seating them a little further off the lands than conventional bullets with a lead core. Recommendations are to start around 0.050" off the lands. Also, the Barnes X, since it is a solid bullet, is longer for weight than conventional bullets, so even the 225 grain seated .050" off the lands and it being long, you may intrude into your powder capacity as much as the 250 grain Nosler. They are great bullets, there's no doubt about that. Some rifles like them, some don't. They copper foul barrels worse than conventional bullets also, so if you have a barrel that suffers copper fouling, the X may not be for you. My Ruger barrel is one such. It's accurate, but fouls terribly, even worse so with the X. Some have noted higher pressures when using the X bullets, but I wonder if that is because they don't back them off the lands enough or not.

There's the North Fork line, they offer a 225 and 240 grain .338" bullet. I've just received a couple boxes to start working on loads this spring. I'll let you know how the Ruger No.1 likes them. Reports have been outstanding on performance. The 230 grain FailSafe is another exceptional bullet. I've never recovered one from game animals. I can't say that they out penetrate any other bullet, but I've never recovered one. I haven't found a super accurate load with it, but accurate enough for my hunting style and circumstances.
Try the Barnes tripple shocks as they donot foul the way the original X's do, and give tremendous penatration

Alyeska 338-
I also wanted to point out something that seems to be overlooked. I wrote an article about the SAKO .375 H&H carbine - yes, I said carbine, for the 1994 Gun Digest. It is light, fast, as accurate as I can shoot and recoil is not even noticed when hunting.

TheSAKO carbines are hard to find, but if I run into another one for sale I will grab it just to make sure that I have a back-up. As much as I like the .338 the .375 carbine has much to appreciate in a light, handy package.

Bluesman
Bluesman,
Several years ago, my company purchased two rifles for us to use while working in the field. One was a Sako carbine, mannlicher stocked. The other was a push feed Winchester M70, both in 375 H&H. The Sako was indeed handy, but ours wasn't as light as I had expected it to be. While not heavy, I think it still went about 8.5lbs with the 20" barrel and mannlicher stock. The Sako was sold by the company to an ex-employee who offered collector's amount for it. Since I had always carried my own personal firearm (you know that familiarity thing) I didn't see any problem with letting it go. The Winchester is still used by our cultural dept when doing archeological investigations along the remote coast.

By the way, I was considering a singleshot wildcat using the x74R case, necking it down to 7mm. Still haven't decided on that yet or not.

I'll look for your article. Many thanks.

jwp,
I've shot some Superior Ammunition loads that were developed for my 500 Jeffery. Not your average factory loads for sure. I'd say more like a custom ammunition company than factory. High quality components loaded with meticulous detail.

Since trying some of the North Fork bullets, I think I've found the bullet for my 338. I cannot find fault with Barnes bullets, but the North Forks are not as sensitive in seating depth and seem to shoot better out my 338 than the X. I haven't tried the Triple Shok's, but will stay with the North Fork for now I believe.

I guess by this time you are up here, well there, being as I am in Anchorage. Hopefully the move wasn't too rough. Been there and done that twice now. How is the Savage working out?

I don't have a 338, nor do I pretend to like on on television, rather preferring a .375 H&H mag. Even then, in the alders (you have seen the alder thickets now haven't you?) I still feel a little under gunned loaded with 300 grain bullets. That being said, I really like the Swift A Frame and the Nosler Partition bullets for Mr. Bear in heavy for caliber loads. I don't care if he is Black, Brown, Grizzly, I just want him to lay down right now, so I load heavy at moderate velocities.

Good luck up there in the interior. It looks like it has been rather cold lately. :) brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr---- -47 without windchill last week. Here it was a balmy -10.

Breakup is coming Yahooo!

I guess by this time you are up here, well there, being as I am in Anchorage. Hopefully the move wasn't too rough. Been there and done that twice now. How is the Savage working out?

I don't have a 338, nor do I pretend to like on on television, rather preferring a .375 H&H mag. Even then, in the alders (you have seen the alder thickets now haven't you?) I still feel a little under gunned loaded with 300 grain bullets. That being said, I really like the Swift A Frame and the Nosler Partition bullets for Mr. Bear in heavy for caliber loads. I don't care if he is Black, Brown, Grizzly, I just want him to lay down right now, so I load heavy at moderate velocities.

Good luck up there in the interior. It looks like it has been rather cold lately. :) brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr---- -47 without windchill last week. Here it was a balmy -10.

Breakup is coming Yahooo!

We have been here since 19August and have been loving every minute that we can get out and play (unfortunately that is not often enough). After living in Maine for 6 years, I have to say that I like the weather here better; the tempurature is much more stable here, and it is much drier as well. By the way it dipped below -50 in North Pole (good weather for all the indoor projects that get neglected the rest of the year).
I did not get to do much more than scout for moose a little in September, and go up the Haul Rd for bou in October (my buddy got a nice bull with his bow about 1 3/4 mile off the road. I only had a rifle and all the animals were near the road, so I didn't even bother walking the 5 miles (we only had 2 days).
As for the Savage; it shoots great. I have it sighted in for 200 yds, and it shot a 3/4" group (3 rounds) at that distance. No complaints so far, but this year I will be putting it and a lot of other gear to the test. I am planning a remote moose hunt for September and will be doing a lot of scouting in that area between now and then.

I don't get this statement Rick. What I have found shooting the 338 Win Mag, for most long range hunting, bullets in the 225-230 grain weights are ideal for that work. The 250's just can't match them. Anything over 250 and drop becomes more pronounced. The 225-230 grain weights, when loaded near the top seem to be a little flatter than the 200 or 210 grain loads. I do have some 215 grain Sierra's, but haven't tried them yet.

Some of the 250 grainers are not bad at all. For example, most of the factory loads around 2,660 fps with 250-grain NOS bullets and the .338 sighted +2" at 100 yards drop to maybe -9.5" at 300 yards. Then Federal 250-grain HE is loaded at nearly 2800 fps, and don't drop as much at the same distance.

My moose last year dropped to one of the Federal 250-grain HE. It was a broadside shot through the lungs, at 325 yards. Also, Woodleigh makes a 300-grain .338 bullet, and Swift makes a 275 grainer. I keep a few rounds with 275-grain A-frame while moose hunting. I load those to just over 2600 fps, and the 250 grainers to about 2670 fps. I have only shot one moose with the 250-grain Swift, two with 250-grain NOS, and the rest with 230-grain Lubalox-coated FS. I have shot moose as close as 100 yards with the FS, but most around 250 to 275 yards.

(I haven't been around for awhile, so I thought it was time to come back)

Welcome back, Ray. As you mentioned the 250 grain NP's or other 250 grain bullet will be great at the 300+ yard mark. Guess when I was thinking of long range, I was thinking of 400+ . I haven't been able to work up a load with the 250's in a 338 Win Mag that gives the same trajectory as a 225-230 grain load for those distances. I will say though, it seems the 338 is really at home with those 250 grain NP's. However, when I carry the 338 out for sheep, I opt for the flatter shooting loads in 225 grain bullets. The 230 grain FS's I have killed game with have yet to be recovered. Heck of a bullet if you can get them to shoot in your rifle.

I've used the 250 Sierra boattail over 67.5 gr of IMR 4350 in the 338 Win mag with good success - good BC. I know it's not a "stout" bullet compared to others, but with 250 grains and not super velocity, I don't really think you need that stout of a bullet for the likes of moose and elk.

I papered this load many years back and I was sighted 2.5" high at 100, it was just high (less than an inch) at 200, approx 3" low at 300, and 18.5" low at 400. That may not agree with a ballistics program, but that's what it was doing for me out of a 26" barrel Browning A-bolt. Got a nice 5-point bull elk with this in October last year.

A friend used a Rem 8 mag with 200 gr Swift A-frame a few years back on a cow elk, at just under 400 yards. Punched it through the ribs. It hardly opened up and barely left a blood trail and went about 80 yards before piling up. Good bullet, along with the partition, FS, and many others, but they can be "overstout" if simply shooting thru the boiler house.

Well, I guess I should have read the entire thread before posting.....if big bears are on the menu, whether intentional or not, I would certainly opt for the stout bullets. Disclaimer: I've never shot a big bear. But I would think, and have read many times, that the 338 Win mag is sufficient for the beasts, and with a 250 or heavier bullet, out-penetrates the 375 H&H with 300 grain bullets of similar construction.

Phil Shoemaker has written several good articles along these lines in recent magazines.

Welcome back, Ray. As you mentioned the 250 grain NP's or other 250 grain bullet will be great at the 300+ yard mark. Guess when I was thinking of long range, I was thinking of 400+ . I haven't been able to work up a load with the 250's in a 338 Win Mag that gives the same trajectory as a 225-230 grain load for those distances. I will say though, it seems the 338 is really at home with those 250 grain NP's. However, when I carry the 338 out for sheep, I opt for the flatter shooting loads in 225 grain bullets. The 230 grain FS's I have killed game with have yet to be recovered. Heck of a bullet if you can get them to shoot in your rifle.

If you check out the long rnge hunting sites they all prefer the heavy bullets because they provide a higher bc and retain velocity better @ extended ranges if you are talking only 3to400 hundred yards then this is not a problem 225 grain bullets such as the barnes TSX's have fair bc'c due to there length but aren't as good as they should be as they have a rather fat ogivel usaully the 250 grain and up have better bc's I killed my Dall Sheep with 250grain NP's @ approx 300 yards [before laser range finders]

Most of the guys on the long range sites are shooting larger capacity cartridges than the Win Mag case, though. From what I've seen, the Lazzeroni, Lapua, and RUM cases are favorites. Maybe it's just my rifles, or maybe I don't stretch it more 600 yards, but I can't get the similar trajectories with the 250's at those ranges. Mind you, I don't shoot at game at 600 yards...

I've noticed the long range guys really prefer the 300 grain SMK for most of their shooting in the 338's.

That is true about the SMK's but Acubonds are gaining ground many do use large case's but some use 338 win I hav enot shot any game as yet at past 400 yards but I am currently Practicing out to 800+ with quite spectactular results the guy's that shooting past 2000yards are definately useing large capacity case's and 300 and 350 grain bullets a favorite in case is Wildcat bullets and these are high bc HUNTING BULLETS I have had great success with the nightforce ballistics program once you find the true bc of your bullets the night force ballistics program will take into account altitude, humidity,dew,tempature,due point and just about any variable you can think of incude multiple bc, as ti changes as the speed changes,one reason the sierra's are popular is that sierra give, different bc's @ different velocitys for the same bullet I am not a fan of these bullets close shots as I have seen them give less than adaquate penetration under those conditions I am conrectly as you know trying the 225 TSX but have discovered that its bc is much lower that advertised But the bc on the 180 30 cal TSX has been wonderflly accurate I have talked to Barnes about this and they are currently working to establish more accurate bc's

I agree about the SMK, not being a hunting bullet. I shoot a lot of 250's in my 338, but when it comes to sheep hunting I switch to the 225 and 230's. At the 400 yard mark, the 250's just don't have the trajectory that the 225's and 230 do. Maybe I haven't worked up the right load for the 250, but I am very satisfied with the 225 class bullet for that purpose.

I agre for 400 yards and under it is only when you get longer does the higher bc's come into play I have never shot any game with a 338 win with any bullet other than the 250 NP's I am now experimenting with the TSX 225 grain and love it to about 600 yards after that it falls of faster than the ballistics programs indicate meaning the bc is wrong I hope to take some game with this bullet as soon as possiable they shoot into very small groups when accurauy testing I am not saying that bigger is always best because I expect these to out pentrate the NP's and will definately shoot flatter out to 5 or 600 yards

I just want to add something about the trajectories between the 225 and the 250 grainers, but don't want you to think that I am trying to argue with you. This is just something to think about:

Of two similarly constructed bullets, lets say...225-Grain Partition and 250-grain Partition, believe it or not, the heavier one maintains its trajectory a little longer than one would expect. One would expect that the heavier one would drop sooner, but in reality it's not so.

Take a look at the following examples, out to 500 yards:

225-grain SP (Partition, or similar soft point), loaded to produce 2780 fps at the muzzle, and sighted to +2" at 100 yards.

100 yards = +2"
200 yards = 0"
300 yards = -8"
400 yards = -23.4"
500 yards = -47.4"

Similar bullet, but in 250 grains, sighted +2" at 100 yards, to produce 2660 fps at the muzzle:

100 yards = +2"
200 yards = 0"
300 yards = -8.9"
400 yards = -25.4"
500 yards = -50.9"

A difference of 3" at 500 yards is not bad at all, considering that the heavier one has only slowed approximately 100 fps more than the lighter one at that distance. For some reason the lighter one sheds velocity sooner than the heavier one at long distance.

A Federal 250-grain NOS-HE (2800 fps) drops to -44.9 at 500 yards, so if you load the same bullet to produce 2700 fps at the muzzle, it should drop from 1-1/2" to 2" at the same distance.

You can push a 225 grainer 100-200 fps faster, but still, the difference will be no more than 3" at 500 yards, and the velocity around 100 fps from the heavier one at the same distance.

Now, some of the longer and aerodynamic hunting bullets will shoot flatter, since these are of a different design. They are usually lighter in weight, too, from 210 to 225 grains. The 225-grain Scirocco comes to mind, as well as some of the Nosler 225 grainers with plastic tips.

A 225-grain Nosler Partition may shoot around 3" flatter than the same bullet in 250 grains at 500 yards, which may translate to around 5" difference at 600.

Looks like I need to work on some more load development for my 250's!!! 2 or 3" at 500 yards is less than any group size I shoot at 500 yards for sure. :D

Looks like I need to work on some more load development for my 250's!!! 2 or 3" at 500 yards is less than any group size I shoot at 500 yards for sure. :D

Howdy Gents!.........Gee I been away to long I guess.

Well, Ray is correct in that trajectory issue, I did the same kind of testing some years ago with the 7mm mag and the 160 verses the 175 grain bullets. There is only 2 inches give or take a fraction of an inche between the 2 at 400 yards.

I use 200 grain bullets in my 338 mag for deer hunting and did the same for speed goates a few years ago. I settled on the 225 grain bullets for elk. However, soon learned that the 250 grain was the way to go because the trajectory and especially the penetration was better in the heavier weight.
Now as I remember it two was only around a -2inches lower at 400 yards, which means squat in comparison, when hunting an animal the size of an elk or moose far out younder way. I'll take that penetration over 2 inches of trajectory anyday!

Oh by the way, I have a younger brother that thinks his 7mm Rem Mag is suitable for Brown Bear. I told him that I thought he needed a little more gun than that, although I firmly believe that it would do the job if he had good bullet placement, and is probably great for everything else, but from what I have heard the 7mm could come up a little short. I have heard of people taking everything on the North American continent with the 30-06, but I dont know if that is really prudent. Feel free to give feedback on his 7mm, I am curious to know if my suspicions are correct.


Well I would like for you to think about something. Do you really want to be carrying around that heavy weapon, up these mountains and through the alders? Trust me I am in great shape but when I moved to Alaska I learned that it is a totally different hunting style here. The weight of the weapon means a lot. Also I think the synthetic stock and stainless steel barrel are a must due to the weather up here. I have ruined a few weapons due to the rain or snow. I own about 20 weapons and have owned a 338 and 375 and sold both of them. They are too heavy when packing in somewhere for 20 miles, But maybe you can afford the 2000 to 4000 dollars every time you want to go hunting. It gets to be very expensive. The weapon that I have found to be the ultimate weapon for me is the 300 win short mag. yes I have shot everything with it minus a Musk ox. It is a ruger ultra light with ultra light bipods (Harris), Varix-3 Scope. This is good for me. I had it shaved in spots and it weighs less than 8 pounds with all add ons. Nice and light for the sheep hunts and strong enough to drop whatever I want. If I had it to do over again I would have waited until I was here to make up my mind. You can't hunt big game for a year once you get here anyways. Unless you pay lots for the tags and a guide. Maybe your rich and don't have to worry about the money though. I myself am not rich. If you are for sure moving here and are in the ARMY then go ahead and change your residency now and change it on your LES. This will allow you to hunt a lot sooner than most. This is stuff that I had no clue about. So when you get here you can hump up a few mountains or through the alders and see what it is that you would like to carry around. We all have are own likes and dislikes. You just need to see what yours are when you get here.

You guys ever heard of the 358 norma mag. cartridge ! I think it would be a lot better then the 338 which Elmer Keith said was a minimum calibre for dangerous game ! JAGG

358 Normas don't grow on trees, even in Alaska. Considering that no American manufacturer has ever produced a rifle chambered in the cartridge, only 2 have been imported (neither of which are being made anymore), factory loaded ammo doesn't exist except in custom shop loads, well... it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when the 338 or 375 H&H will do the same job and rifles and ammo can be found in nearly backwater outpost.

Don't get me wrong, the 358 Norma would work very well, but doesn't really offer anything more available chamberings don't. Would be good for a custom rifle, but if you have to rely on the public to build custom rifles for the chambering, it isn't going to be very popular.

Which .338?

Why a .338./.378 Weatherby of course :p

My feeling is first you need to find the gun that feels good to you and then get to know it reel good and shoot it often. Any of the big calibers will serve you well with good ammo. Practice a controlled second shot.

I would stick with the 338 Win. Mag. using 225-250 grain well constructed bullets. I believe the larger case gives more range primarily, so, if you need more power than a 338, I would jump to a 375, then use 300 grain well constructed bullets made for both deep penetration and expansion.

Joe,
I too looked and was torn between rifles of various sizes and brands. I wanted the 375 for the ultimate drop dead one shot rifle for distance. I thought the 338 would be better for the recoil, but I wanted the distance of the 375. I too wondered about ever getting the second shot at say a big brown. Most big game you shoot at in AK will be far enough to get another shot off, but the secret is to get a good scope that has power and clearity and learn to shoot either right behind the ear, or if face to face, shoot right through the adams apple area. Any, and all game will drop with one shot, but it takes practice. this leaves only the worry about getting a second shot off if you happen upon a brown..especially if she has cubs. This why you might want to look at the banelli AR1...it's a 300 semi...it will give you that second and third shot. If you use red tipped Accubonds, you will shoot flat at long distance and do damage at short distance. you really should look at the Mfg. of this gun, it's fantastic.

You'll find most game in Alaska is shot at the same distance as in the lower 48 under a 100 yrds.Of course you want to bring a rifle suited for the range,game and area that you hunt.That is subjective of course Iv'e hunted the north slope with bow and arrow and high powered rifle.There is not a tree for hundreds of miles.The interior and south coastal area's can be dense with alders and other delitirious ''stuff''.I would stay away from head,neck shots unless you know the anatomy of the critter your shooting and your a good shot.Besides you waste less meat if you pop em behind the shoulder and have more margin for error.Grizz,brown bear small neck with lots a fat not a good target,head shot would be a last resort shot if I was attacked and had no other shot.I would go 338 win over 338 Rum for reason stated from other posts ,most rums that I seen come with muzzle breaks.I won't hunt with or anybody with a muzzle break.I had a 300 win with a kdf go off beside me while he was shooting at a moose,couldn't here out of my right ear for 20min

I read an article a few years ago from the alaskan game dept that the most used caliber in alaska was the 30-06. It was a Griffin & Howe converted 1903 Springfield used in 1924 to kill every species of big game on the North American Continent,if it did it then it can still do it today with all of the bullets available for loading!

Oh by the way, I have a younger brother that thinks his 7mm Rem Mag is suitable for Brown Bear. I told him that I thought he needed a little more gun than that, although I firmly believe that it would do the job if he had good bullet placement, and is probably great for everything else, but from what I have heard the 7mm could come up a little short. I have heard of people taking everything on the North American continent with the 30-06, but I dont know if that is really prudent. Feel free to give feedback on his 7mm, I am curious to know if my suspicions are correct.
Howdy friend. I lived in Alaska for a number of years, Copper Center to be exact, my wife is from there. Anyway I never hunted the big bears, I'm not a trophy hunter, I have this personal hang up , I won't kill what I won't eat, but hey thats just me. I did go out alot with my 5 brother-in-laws bear hunting many times though. The 338 Win mag was the hands down winner, but two of them used the 300 Win mag, with 180gr Barnes bullets. Many bears fell to my inlaws 300's, and we never found any of the barnes bullets. They tore the heck out of the poor bears insides, then passed right through. So after seeing alot of bears give up the ghost, I'm convinced if you use the proper bullet in a 7mm, and put the slug where it belongs you will fill your tag. People still think like they did 20 years ago, you need a big gun for a big critter, back then yes, today, with all the super bullets on the market, alot of smaller calibers are more than able to do the job.But super bullets and big guns don't mean squat, practice, practice, practice is your best insurance on having a successful kill. I also had an old sour dough buddy, he died last year at 93, he swore by the 30-06 with a 220gr round nose, that man killed more big bears and hugh moose than any of us will ever see, claims he never had to shoot anything more than twice. Go figure, people kill the big bears with bows and hand guns, so yes a 7mm will do the job if used properly.

Joe, just a thought - but if you are hunting bear or in an area where you expect big brownies, you could always bring along some heavy (300gr) loads and put at least one in the bottom of the magazine for a stopper @ close (closer) range where you won't need the velocity as much as the power & penetration....

I don't know how anyone feels about 12ga slugs as backup or bearstoppers, but James Gates new TERMINATOR Slug pushing a 745gr .73 caliber "bullet" in a fully rifled barrel @ 1350fps is awfully impressive. He's sorting out an entirely new (PREDATOR) dual purpose version (for smoothbore & fully rifled barrels) that will be a little less weight and more velocity, but the same hard cast construction with a ½" diameter meplat on the nose. Park Rangers & State Troopers in Alaska take out problem bears each year with 12ga slugs... The new Terminator & Predator slugs will hopefully make their job safer and easier when it's available in Alaska.

Just noted that Benelli is offering their 12ga M1-Super 90 "Interia" auto with a 24" fully rifled barrel with rifle sights now, too... Everyone is picking up on the big bore slug rage right now.

GOOD LUCK IN ALASKA!! ;)
I lived in Alaska for a number of years, and some of my guide buddies swore by a 12gauge with an extended magazine tube, stuffed with double 00 buck, and Brenneke slugs staggered, to go into the brush after a wounded bear.You would not believe if you never saw it, how nasty tangle legged the bush can be up their. It looks only 2 or 3 feet high until you start going into it. In a few minutes it's over your head and your up to your knees in mud and feel like you walked into a spider web. A big bear will lay in wait just feet away, and will come at you as fast as a house cat can move, and it will seem like he can pass through the bush like a rocket. Try this, take a rubber ball and throw it at a brick wall as hard as you can, and as fast as that ball comes back at you, the bear is way faster, and he's mad as heck, and is totally focused on killing what hurt him.YOU, the 12 guage makes alot of sense to me.

I lived in Alaska for a number of years, and some of my guide buddies swore by a 12gauge with an extended magazine tube, stuffed with double 00 buck, and Brenneke slugs staggered, to go into the brush after a wounded bear.

I've never understood the logic behind alternating the slugs with buckshot. I've only shot 1 black bear with 00 buckshot and was not impressed with the performance. It was about 28 years ago in Maine and we were hunting with dogs - it took 3 shots to drop the medium sized bear out of a tree and then I borrowed the guide's .357 mag to shoot it in the neck to finish it. When skinned, it was apparent that many of the buckshot had not penetrated through the fat.

I suspect James Gates' Tri-ball would be a lot more effective. I don't hunt where buckshot is required and have no desire to hunt the big bears, but understand why a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs is a desirable defensive gun in big bear country.

If you want the ultimate in function and reliability, get a Mccann Industries converted M1 Garand in 338 mag or 458 mag. They have reworked it and lightened it. I am saving change now for a brownie hunt and the rifle. By the way I might be jaded since I own 4 M1s.

Myself I have never seen the need for a 338 anything...

Other than a 340 Weatherby that my Grandfather gave me and I traded off fairly quickly I have never owned a .338 because I see them as a middle bore that can only marginally out do what a 30 cal can and can't do what a 375 cal can.

My big game hunting rifles are now Rem 700 LSS's in both 300RUM with 200gr A-Frames @ 3200fps & 375RUM with 300gr Partitions (soon to be A-Frames) @ 2800fps.

My answer is to go with the 338RUM over the WM it isn't just trajectory it is the added hitting power of the faster round that comes into play when going after big game.

Remember speed kills...

Oh and yes I know what I am talking about...

Here is a picture of me with my spring interior/mountain grizzly it is app 1000lbs and would weigh about 200lbs more by the fall, 8' from nose to tail and would stand about 11 1/2' tall.

I shot it at 230 - 250 yards with the 375RUM and the 300gr Partitons I mentioned above it ran between 50 to 75 yards and piled up exactly the way it is in the picture.

In the pic I am holding my Marlin 1895GS that was loaded with 525gr Beartooth Piledrivers @ 1650fps.

When my son and I went in after the bear early the next morning this is the rifle I carried.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Ice_Cream_with_Jaiden_Grizzly_Bear_Pic_s_June_2_20 08_047.jpg

Judging from the picture that bear doesn't look like a 1000 pound bear. A mountain Grizzly that wieghs 1K is a real rarity indeed.

I shot one of the bears and the moose on the left with my handgun with zero problems and one shot stops.


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg


Another one shot drop

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/parker_buffalo.jpg



I have used the 338 Win estensively and never saw it lacking in any reguard, even the 338 Federal is a real performer with a proper bullet


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesAndBuddy038.jpg


Damage to Zebra's heart from a 210 TSX out of the 338 Federal about a 100 yard shot

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/HuntingPicturesAndBuddy047.jpg

You are right pictures sure are deceptive so here are a couple more to give a better example.

The skull has without it's teeth in measured 23.81" to make the life time Boone & Crocket record book the skull has to measure 24" so this bear may make the book but it will definately make the Boone & Crocket awards book which is a minimum of 23"...

I won't have the skull back for a few more months so I have my fingers crossed waiting to get a final score.

For a size comparison I am 6'3" and weigh 220lbs if you jammed 4 of me together = 880lbs the bear is still longer/bigger than me by at least 100 lbs if not more.

I bumped into the guide/outfitter that has been working this area for 35 years he told me this is the biggest mountain grizzly that he has ever seen.

He also told me to stop hunting for mountain grizzlys because I will never find a bigger one.

Oh and there is another one in the area that is about the same size...

Yeah I told him where the carcass was and after his hunters left and the season was over he went back in and saw it...

Said it looked exactly like mine.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Ice_Cream_with_Jaiden_Grizzly_Bear_Pic_s_June_2_20 08_052.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Grizzly_Hunt_June_2008_029.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Grizzly_Hunt_June_2008_034.jpg

edit to add;

In the middle picture you can see the exit wound in the chest and the entrance into the leg as it passed thru, the last picture you can see my son's 8.5" Rem 870 pump 12 gauge leaning against the log behind me (yes they are legal here) that he used when we went in looking for the bear.

It was loaded with 3" Brenneke slugs.

I have a 338 lapua mag and I dare anyone to match its range and power with a 340 or 375 . The only gun that can match and outdo it that I have found is a 50 bmg . I only use it north of the timberline where there is no cover and long range shots are needed , sometimes its hard to get within 6-800 yards of those bighorns.

I have a 338 lapua mag and I dare anyone to match its range and power with a 340 or 375 . The only gun that can match and outdo it that I have found is a 50 bmg . I only use it north of the timberline where there is no cover and long range shots are needed , sometimes its hard to get within 6-800 yards of those bighorns.

Google ".338 Excalibur"

I've read lots of info on several forums about alaska hunting rifle requirements then I went to the AK Game & Fish Dept a couple of years ago to find out what caliber rifle lead the list it was the 30-06.I read an article about a hunter in 1924 who had a 1903 Springfield 06 customized by Griffin and Howe www.griffinhowe.com (http://www.griffinhowe.com)He used it to take every single species of Big Game on the North American Continent. It worked then & it will work now so much for all of these mega calibers!

I have a 338 lapua mag and I dare anyone to match its range and power with a 340 or 375 . The only gun that can match and outdo it that I have found is a 50 bmg . I only use it north of the timberline where there is no cover and long range shots are needed , sometimes its hard to get within 6-800 yards of those bighorns.


I also have a 338 Lapua and it is a fine round indeed, but not the biggest or baddest 338 on the block. Many people have necked down the 408 Cheytec to 338 caliber and some have an improved version that send a 300 grain SMK 3450 FPS. A 338 Lapua can't even get close to that type of performance much less equal it.

Gentlemen: Greetings and a salutation:
Firstly: Sir, fine bruin ... fine indeed. Mountain you say, finer yet.
I saw the pee-ing contest developing ... couldn't leave it alone. grew up in the Wr@^9377 narrows vicinity.
I note that as a group you pack serious freight. I doubt if I might enjoy employing such ... Perhaps I doubt my constitution ....much less is comonly used in the area. I myself, started using at 14, and was gifted the 'musket' at 17 ... a lowly 9.3x 62. certainly anything but what you pack. But, I've never had a bruin mishap iether ... Probably why I'm still here ...
What I think I have learned is that: Bruin aren't that tough if you make the first one count ... It's only after that first one that things go from "good to bad to worse". As if 2 unrelated creatures.
I've seen many offed with an 06 and Far (I do mean far) less. I won't even start in on the horrors indians of the area get away with.
Guides of the area differ on what they say they preffer to see a john ... ahem , client ... sport, but .300winnie gets a nod, I recall hearing more than once, that .338-06 would be preffered, .35w better yet. .45-70 is more often a locals choice for "backup", but the lowly -06 is the universaly present rifle (no one claims its the right choice... just whats used)... I know of one guide who used to carry a .375 who got thoroughly chewed a few seasons back, now sports a .416 (no names S.N.) As far as I'm concerned, (If you know who I mean), He'd be the go to guy ... If he don't know ... well, I'd sure be stumped. He's guided on more bruins than about all but 3 people I know (highly respected)

Originally Posted by Butchb
I lived in Alaska for a number of years, and some of my guide buddies swore by a 12gauge with an extended magazine tube, stuffed with double 00 buck, and Brenneke slugs staggered, to go into the brush after a wounded bear.

Called an Alaska cocktail ...works, sometimes.

When you go searching and researching for the "perfect"... remember it's an imperfect world ... bigger helps more than faster, once you've achieved the hit. When more gun is mentioned you never hear how more speed is the cure, it's always more size/weight ...
That said ultra or mag.... No differrence to the game. I don't know what is the "perfect" choice. But there's my 2 shining pennies