I have a Remington Rollingblock Argentine Modelo 1879 that's been chambered for 11 Mann. My research concluded that the 11mm Mannlicher and 11 Werndl cartridge are one and the same with measurements of 11mmx58R and a 368 gr. bullet. So, I scrounged up some ammo that's supposed to be 11x58R, tied my rifle to a tree and pulled the trigger with a very long piece of string. Yikes! The cartridge case split about eight ways to Sunday. The ammo is headstamped 1897.

I'm sure the chamber is OK and place the blame on the very old cartridges. I feel that the blackpowder under mysterious storage conditions for 117 years may have corroded the brass from the inside while at the same time developing unstable explosive characteristics.

My question to you old cartridge buffs is this...Should I be able to hear the loose powder make a noise when I shake a cartridge near my ear? I can shake a modern cartridge and hear the powder grains make noise as they are shifted back and forth, but can't hear them in one of these old cartridges. It makes me wonder if the blackpowder hasn't solidified, clumped, or gotten damp. Hence the case splitting and really remarkable amount of bore fouling for just one shot.

Thanks for your responses, comments, help. Doug McArthur

Also, does anyone know of a loader that will/can make this round up for me with new brass, etc?

I am not familiar with that specific cartridge, however, black powder works best compressed and not loose. You should not be able to hear powder shaking around inside the case if they are loaded right.

The brass on the cases could have gone bad I suppose, do a chamber cast and make sure of the chambering. Even if it is worn/corroded a bit it should only split a little on the neck if at all on one shot as long as the case and chamber are a match.

Looks like Quality Cartridge has the brass listed for the 11.15x58R Werndle M77 and the 11.15x58R Spanish Rem. (43 Spanish). It looks like they have some of the Spanish in stock, but not the Werndle M77, I'm sure they will make some if you order it though.

http://owlnet.com/quality/exotic.htm

Looks like they loaded rounds for the Spanish also. Brass is about $34/20, loaded rounds at $89/20.
The load appears to be 370gr FNL over Pyrodex.
http://owlnet.com/quality/43%20Spanish.htm

Since it is a Argentine Remington Rolling Block this sounds like you may have Rem or Spanish version of the cartridge. You may want to browse their exotic cartridges website at the first link I provided. There are quite a few of the different 11mm and 11.15 cases listed, including one 11x57R Rem.

They have contact info listed, and I'm sure these guys would know exactly what you have, if the chamber hasn't been altered. I'd contact them before firing anymore ammo.

If it were me, I don't think I'd shoot anymore ammo that was loaded during or before the turn of the 20th Century.

alyeska338 did a good job of leading you to ammo.

Will put in a plug for a good chamber cast (Brownells will sell you the reuseable materials). It really is a pretty easy process, and teh instructions are detailed.

That rifle has passed theough a lot of hands and it may no longer be chambered exactly like what it started out as; was pretty common to adapt rifles to exisiting ammo supply and at various times has been a pot full of odd BP rounds avaialble in South America.

Even if the rifle is unmodified, it's often possible to reform some other (better fitting...tolerances were a bit sloppy in the 1800's) case to fit that chamber.

According to Cartridges of the World, the 11.15x58R Werndl has a base diameter of .545" and a beveled rim like the .43 (11.15x60R) Mauser. The 11.15x58R Spanish Remington has a base diameter of .516" and a conventional flat rim. The other difference is that the Spanish Remington has a longer body and shorter neck than the Werndl. I can't find the base to shoulder dimensions, but measuring off the pictures gets me 35mm (1.377") for the Werndl and 41mm (1.614") for the Spanish. The shoulder is so small on these cartridges that I'm wondering if you fired a Spanish in your rifle. .029" is a lot of extra space, particularly when the brass is old.

There's also a 11.5x57R (.454" bullet) Spanish Reformado that has a .525" base, flat rim and very slight shoulder at 41mm.

Black powder can cake into a solid mass, but since cases are normally filled to the point of slight compression, I wouldn't expect to hear the powder rattling in the case. A chamber cast is definitely in order. Cerroafe is what you want.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=384

Bye
Jack

Old brass cartridiges case age harden in time by themselves ! BP is suppose to get better with age as the ingridients mix better with time ! JAGG

I have shot 43 spanish reformado ammo and had no problems but that was a rifle that was chambered for it. It should be realy called 45 spanish reformado not 43. Bufflo arms sells 43spanish cases, reformed 348win. When 43 spanish ammo was hard to find smiths used a 348 reamer to open up the base dia so that 348 win cases could be used. Best to make a chamber cast and see what you realy have??????

Thanks for all the solid info! I've inspected the chamber and it has been 'chatterd' by the reamer that converted it to 11 Mann. I'm going to have the chamber polished, casted, and then go from there. Thanks again for all your help.

I have a Remington Rollingblock Argentine Modelo 1879 that's been chambered for 11 Mann. My research concluded that the 11mm Mannlicher and 11 Werndl cartridge are one and the same with measurements of 11mmx58R and a 368 gr. bullet. So, I scrounged up some ammo that's supposed to be 11x58R, tied my rifle to a tree and pulled the trigger with a very long piece of string. Yikes! The cartridge case split about eight ways to Sunday. The ammo is headstamped 1897.

I'm sure the chamber is OK and place the blame on the very old cartridges. I feel that the blackpowder under mysterious storage conditions for 117 years may have corroded the brass from the inside while at the same time developing unstable explosive characteristics.

My question to you old cartridge buffs is this...Should I be able to hear the loose powder make a noise when I shake a cartridge near my ear? I can shake a modern cartridge and hear the powder grains make noise as they are shifted back and forth, but can't hear them in one of these old cartridges. It makes me wonder if the blackpowder hasn't solidified, clumped, or gotten damp. Hence the case splitting and really remarkable amount of bore fouling for just one shot.

Thanks for your responses, comments, help. Doug McArthur

Also, does anyone know of a loader that will/can make this round up for me with new brass, etc?
:) You are in luck! I have an Argentine 1879 Rollingblock chambered in 11 mm Mannlicher and, I reload for and fire this rifle at least once a week. I would like to start by saying that you have received some great imformation starting with, A Chamber Cast Is A Must.
History: These rifles were first chambered for the 43 Spanish.In the early 1880's Argentina adopted the Mauser bolt action and Remington was left with an over run that remaind in storge until 1950. At that time a large amount of 11 mm MANNLICHER ammo was available and so Remington re-chambered ONLY 300 rifles for sale to the private market.
Reloading: It required over 2 1/2 years of reserch to locate all the imformation and material to re-load for this rifle so, let me short-cut it for you. Start by contacting "Buffalo Arms",(on the net). They are the best source for material I have found.
You will need 43 Spanish bullets at 385 gr.
You need 348 winchester brass. This brass has a slightly lower shoulder but this is corrected by firing the cartridge. The brass will strech to fit and will not harm the brass or chamber.
You will need Large Rifle Primers.
Your re-loading dies will be for the 11mmx58R Werndl with shell holder. These dies are not perfect and will require some modifacation.
And, GET A BOOK ON HOW TO RE-LOAD BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGES!
My best load: 75 gr. of FF Black Powder with a filler or greese cookie.
A filler,(corn meal), is used to top off the case so that when the bullet is ceited it compress's the powder.
A greese cookie,(wax paper toped by 1/8 in. mixture of 60% vasaline and 40% bees wax), can be used as a filler.
I use the greese cookie to keep the fouling soft and easy to clean.
The sights on your rifle are concidered some of the finest ever set on a longe range rifle and long range sooters will pay big bucks to get their hands on them.
I hope this imfo helps.
I'm taking mine to Africa next year.

Chris Guthrie

I second the chamber cast/Buffalo Arms info. They make 11X58R Werndl brass from 348 Win and even expand the rim! Emery