Looking at buying a carry pistol but want something thats pretty accurate and not too big. Was looking at the colt's 1911 or maybe the baby desert eagle full size. Not sure on a caliber either. Anyone have these or shot either one . Sugestions appreciated.

i've said it once and ill say it again, S&W steel J-Frame .357magnum/.38 special. I think everyone knows why by now.

I totally agree with 44SandW. The model 36 S&W 38 and the model 60 have no peer! Small, concealable, adequate power, no safety levers, no clip problems, and DEPENDABLE!

4 out of 4 plus P 158 gr lhp's, which struck Platt and Matix in the head, from 3-6 ft from the muzzle of Mirules's 4" barreled revolver, failed to penetrate to their brains. 1 hit each, out of the 6 total that he fired, trying to execute the bled out, unarmed robbers, deflected down into their necks, and those were the fatal rounds.

Dont kid yourself about how 'powerful" a .38 snub is, cause it's mostly a joke.

Powerful? Maybe not compared to the .454 et al - but there is a huge difference between personal defense, and a law enforcement role.

also, control of a .38 snub, while under stress, in rapidfire, is about non-existent. YOu have to have two of them, one a very sturdy Ruger SP101, to practice with, and a smaller, lighter one to carry. The J frames can't handle the 5000+ rds per year of practice necessary to be any good with a .38 snubby. You'd be way ahead with a pair of ($150 each) Star BM 9mm's Practice with one, sparing the ccw gun the wear and fouling. Shoot the latter only about 200 rds a year, and it will last for 50 years. 9mm ammo is $11 for Winchester 100 packs, at Wally world. 90 gr CorBon jhp's, at 1500 fps, have 450 ft lbs of energy, and they are going fast enough to reliably expand in flesh, while being very controlable. The BM is 7.2" long, 28 ozs, all steel, all machined. Spare mags are $15.

also, control of a .38 snub, while under stress, in rapidfire, is about non-existent. YOu have to have two of them, one a very sturdy Ruger SP101, to practice with, and a smaller, lighter one to carry. The J frames can't handle the 5000+ rds per year of practice necessary to be any good with a .38 snubby. You'd be way ahead with a pair of ($150 each) Star BM 9mm's Practice with one, sparing the ccw gun the wear and fouling. Shoot the latter only about 200 rds a year, and it will last for 50 years. 9mm ammo is $11 for Winchester 100 packs, at Wally world. 90 gr CorBon jhp's, at 1500 fps, have 450 ft lbs of energy, and they are going fast enough to reliably expand in flesh, while being very controlable. The BM is 7.2" long, 28 ozs, all steel, all machined. Spare mags are $15.


The .38 snub is little more than a bluff. It's got at most 250 ft lbs of energy, and most loads, it's got 200 ft lbs. a stinger, from a .22 rifle, has 160 ft lbs. So that should tell you how "effective" a hit with a .38 snub is likely to be.

Dont kid yourself. Cops get to have buddies, wear armor, and have the full wt of the 'justice" system on their side. The civilian needs MORE power in his sidearm than cops do, not less.

Please stop spamming the thread, Please, you've made your point. second off, i SPEED shoot a.38 snubby from time to time, 5 pins down, off the table in 6 seconds with full power +Ps, no problem and its no worse than shooting the 629 w/ 8 3/8" barrel. Second off, compare the most powerful .38 special +P to the most powerful 9mm, the .38 special will out perform the 9 if coming out of the same barrel. Also, you can not compare a .22 Stinger in a RIFLE to a .38 coming out of a j frame. 16" barrel Vs. a 2-3" barrel just doesn't work, not to mention your not going to carry a rifle under your arm or on your ankel. BTW, the .38 snub i shoot has many more rounds through it than the 5000 you mention, i personally have put 3000 through it last shooting season (May-Nov.) myself and its been shot since the early 80's. A J frame revolver is plenty strong enough and has plenty enough power for self defence and if you put a .357 in it then you've got one of the best in the world for Self-Defence

As for needing more power, what are you going to carry? a 500 S&W magnum?

Dont kid yourself. Cops get to have buddies, wear armor, and have the full wt of the 'justice" system on their side. The civilian needs MORE power in his sidearm than cops do, not less.

I don't agree.

First rule is, have a gun! Snub .38s are a good choice for concealed-carry because you can almost always take it with you.

Cops get to hang their guns in a good duty holster and size and weight is less of an issue.

Criminals who start gunfights with cops know they are getting into a war, and prepare and act accordingly. So do the cops, by the way - look at the average number of rounds fired by citizens in self-defense vs. police shootings. Cops go on the offensive.... concealed-carry is about being on the defensive.

Let's not kid ourselves, few handguns have the ability to even put a 100 lb. deer down *right now* discounting brain/spine hits. Even a few more seconds of life in the bad guy can cause problems for you. The role of the concealed-carry gun is to encourage the bad people to go somewhere else, very quickly, and at least give you some time to get the heck out of Dodge. If we must have guaranteed one-shot stops, instantly, on any miscreant.... then we'd all better ditch the puny little handguns and start carrying 12GA pump shotguns loaded with slugs (oh heck I guess doubles are OK too :) ).

The mental aspect of not wanting to get shot outweights any thoughts of power, etc. Ever hear of a bad guy asking what ammo you are using before deciding on a course of action? Maybe in the Dirty Harry movies.... not elsewhere.

Kinetic energy is mostly B.S., whether hunting or self defense. If it matters little for hunting - why is self-defense any different?

Criminals who try to mug you think they have an unarmed victim. When you stick a .38 under their nose, it changes their perceptions of this situation in a hurry. Don't discount the element of surprise.

I know a number of cops who carry .38 snubs as backup guns. You think they would trust their life on something that could not do the job? Granted, it's a backup, but I can assure you, if you need it, things have gone horribly wrong and it may well be your life on the line.

I do agree that there is good .38 ammo and very poor .38 ammo. Do your research on what works in any gun before buying ammo.

I do not have a problem with someone choosing another concealed-carry weapon. If you can conceal it, and use it - more power to you (no pun intended). Remember the many criticisms that were leveled at the 9mm a few years back, now we have recognized that ammo performance is a major part of the equation, and ammo for the 9mm is vastly improved these days.

Personally - if I could design the perfect .38 snub ammo, it would be alongs the lines of the Beartooth 160gr. .38 bullet, and I suspect you could get between 700-800fps out of a snub (maybe at +p pressures). It *would* penetrate the skull of any human that ever lived, and give a pretty good wound channel otherwise (the .280" meplat on the nose makes a messy hole in a deer, this is the same nose as the 185gr. FNGC that I've used on whitetails).

A good punch to the solar plexus WILL stop any man, and so will a swift kick to the balls. No blood loss, and no damage to vital organs, but the man is stopped. So, no, kinetic energy is NOT malarkey. You just have to have ENOUGH of it, and transmit it in a way that maximizes its effectiveness. Men are a lot more susceptible to shock than are deer. Men are aware that they are mortal, and that being shot means that they are either going to have to get medical help, or die of infection. They also know that medical personell have to report gunshot wounds to the police. So getting shot means jail or death.

A .22 Hornet rifle is 45 grs at 2600 fps, at the muzzle. Out where the animals get shot with it, say 75m, it's down to 2300 fps, yet it does a FAR better job of dropping big feral dogs out there, than any .38 snub load does at 10 ft. It is quite feasible to get a 45 gr bullet to 2300 fps in a 4" autoloader,and it's also easy to control such a load with just one hand. THV Arcane showed the way, over 20 years ago. They used a solid brass bullet, with a deep hollowbase. The base cavity lets you stuff in more powder. This sort of load recoils about like 115 gr 9mm ball ammo does. Multiply the mass x the velocity, and you will see why. If this bullet is made of pure tin, and has a lead birdshot pellet in its hollowbase, it is perfectly legal to possess, and you can cast it yourself, in a normal bullet mold. "Non-lead" solder is available at any plumbing supply store, it's 95% tin, 5% antimony. Use it in a 95 gr lrn mold, and the bullet drops out weighing about 55 grs. Hollowbasiing it makes it 48 grs, hollowpointing it makes it about 45 grs.

At such velocities, bullets that expand really do damage fragile organs, like the liver, lungs, and spleen, far beyond the areas actually touched by the bullet. So one does not have to go with a .44 mag or some such silliness in order to have a really effective handgun. Given the 9x25 Dillon, or the 357 Sig, getting such velocities is quite easy, in fact.

Please stop spamming the thread, Please, you've made your point. second off, i SPEED shoot a.38 snubby from time to time, 5 pins down, off the table in 6 seconds with full power +Ps, no problem and its no worse than shooting the 629 w/ 8 3/8" barrel. Second off, compare the most powerful .38 special +P to the most powerful 9mm, the .38 special will out perform the 9 if coming out of the same barrel. Also, you can not compare a .22 Stinger in a RIFLE to a .38 coming out of a j frame. 16" barrel Vs. a 2-3" barrel just doesn't work, not to mention your not going to carry a rifle under your arm or on your ankel. BTW, the .38 snub i shoot has many more rounds through it than the 5000 you mention, i personally have put 3000 through it last shooting season (May-Nov.) myself and its been shot since the early 80's. A J frame revolver is plenty strong enough and has plenty enough power for self defence and if you put a .357 in it then you've got one of the best in the world for Self-Defence

As for needing more power, what are you going to carry? a 500 S&W magnum?




You call 1 hit per second SPEED shooting? :-) . A good man with a 9mm gets .17 second splits, one handed, on the 10" chest circle, at 5 yds. You can't get such hits in twice as much time, with such loads in a .38 snub.

No, the .38 does NOT get the same power,out of the same barrel. The 90 gr Corbon gets 450 ft ft lbs out of a 4" barreled 9mm. The .38 case was designed for black powder, and it's a poor choice these days. It's got a LONG record of failing to stop men,with multiple hits to the chest.

More or less all your doing is being a troll and starting fights. but anyways, a .38 and a 9mm are differnt in the fact that your talking about a 9mm auto. im talking revolver. second the .38 Special +P WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR BLACK POWEDER. if your saying that .38 special is bad then a .357 is just an extended .38 case, don't argue that point because it is. oh, your shooting your 9 at 5 yards we're shooting at 10-15 yards.

at 15 yds, or 100 yds, the 9 will get the hits faster than the .38, because I don't have to fight a DA trigger pull. The Plus P case is no different than the original, black powder 38 special case.

no, .38 +P cases are made to handel higher pressures than the orginal .38 BP cases. And faster hites maybe, but how fast can you clear a jam?

I'd get a small, light, higher capacity auto. Like a Glock 27 .40 with a 9 round mag. You have twice as many rounds than a .38 or .357 5-shot. Take a poll of people who carry guns every day and who have been in off-duty shootings. Ask them if it was any comfort to them at the time that the average shooting is something like 2-3 rounds. If you feel comfortable with 5 shots, get a revolver. I'd rather have 10 or more if I could get them in the same size package with no failures after a few thousand (personal, not magazine article) rounds. The Colt 1911A1 and its clones are way too big for me.

the alloy compact 1911's are 6.7" long, which is .4" longer than a J frame 38 special, and the same OAL as a J frame 357.

look, son, maybe you can't get an auto to function reliably, but millions of others have figured out how to do so, many decades ago.

but how fast can you clear a jam?
Faster than I can reload my revolvers....Especially since I don't carry spare ammo in my pocket.....

Even the best shooters have jams, and don't ever call me "son" again, i take offence to it. second off, show me an auto you can sit down for 35 years, toss in the dirt, sand pick up and shoot flawlessly. You cant. Even the Desert Eagle i love so much has problems they jam when their dirty or dont like your ammo, just like every other auto.

like I said, maybe you can't figure out how to have an autopistol be reliable, but millions of men have done so, for decades now. Cars occasionally crap out, but horses get sick and hurt. Revolvers get their cranes bent by blows, get locked up by lint or dust or sand, and DA triggers are 10x as likely to have a misfirre as are SA autos. The fight of that 3/4" long, 9 lb pull is ALWAYS a problem, for the revolver.

A glock could do so easily. I've had many problems with revolvers. Dust or sand will lock them up solidly, really easily.

This thread has got out of hand. Please display better manners next time, gents. Locked

Bye
Jack

Seven,
It is okay to disagree with other posters. It will be okay for other posters to disagree with you. We do require everyone to act and post in a civil manner. We will not tolerate posts or portions of posts such as I have had to edit twice today.

Clean it up, be civil, and you will be welcome to share information. We can't have members responding to others by degrading them or "calling them out".