Why did the 307 fail to sell? Sighted in at 175 yards, the 307 has a low mid-point and is only 3 3/4 inches low at 225 yards. Recoil is comparable to a 308. The gun has plenty of energy for mule deer out to 225 yards and elk to 200 yards. On paper, this is a good lever action round. So why did it fail?

Taylor
I am a big fan of the .307. I have had more "one shot dropped in its tracks" kills on whitetail deer with the .307 than any other cartridge. I really enjoy this cartridge and the Winchester Big Bore M-94.
As to why the .307 did not sell I blame the gun writers. Writers such as Ed Matunas threw dirt on the .307 from day one. Most other writers dismissed the cartridge with the thought that it was only slightly more powerful than the .30-30. The typical gun press attitude of: they are not interested in something so it has no value.
Ken Waters, Layne Simpson and Rick Jamison all had good words to say about the cartridge - from its introduction. Layne Simpson came up with the best quotable review when he said that in his opinion the .307 was the best cartridge ever developed for the tubular magazine lever-action rifle. Ken Waters followed with very similar words. Dave Scoville, Editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines, wrote in answer to my letter on the .307 that he thought recoil was an issue. Scoville felt that the average hunter didn’t shoot very often and that the increased recoil of the .307 over the .30-30 may have surprised a few shooters. Could be.
I think the introduction of the rebounding hammer and long take-up trigger did not help matters. The follow up addition of the cross-bolt safety with its large divot in the right receiver wall did not help matters. Personally I think the .307 should have been packaged in a Model 64 type rifle. Pistol grip, shotgun butt plate and three-quarter-length magazine. I prefer the long barrel but I am in the minority so a twenty-inch barrel would be satisfactory.

Because it was a leveraction. It was introduced in 1982 and to be honest the gunwriters were not kind to it. I remember the reports typically read, "this cartridge has great potential if it wasn't for those flat nose bullets... why buy this when you can have a 308 Win." Winchester must not have given them enough free stuff. That's about the time I stopped reading gun rags and just started enjoying my leveractions.

I think there is one thing about the leveractions that will always hurt sales. I think a lot of folks that shoot them are happy with them after buying one and never buy another. If your hunting with it and successful, you tend to be the individual that doesn't have to have the latest and greatest and in fact want to hunt with the same rifle every year. This is just my take.

Michael

Why did the 307 fail to sell? Sighted in at 175 yards, the 307 has a low mid-point and is only 3 3/4 inches low at 225 yards. Recoil is comparable to a 308. The gun has plenty of energy for mule deer out to 225 yards and elk to 200 yards. On paper, this is a good lever action round. So why did it fail?

It was a 308 made to chamber in a lever . Thus it needed flat point bullets to load in a tube . The gun reviews I saw compaired it to the 308 , were the approach should have been how the 308 could be shot in a tube fed lever.

The same thinking went to the 356 W I think . It was the 358 W adapted and downloaded for the 94 winnie lever .
If you thought of the cartridge of a hot rod 35 Remington it might have sold more than it did.

I bought a 358 W in a blr and I am pleased with it . Now compare it to the 300 WSM and out on the open plains who needs the old 358W.

It is how it is prsented in the magazines buy the writers . If they wrote what is good in the cartridge and what was intended , there would be more 307/356/358 in the woods today.

If you can afford the price you need to pay for a winchester in 307. Hang on to it . you got a very good rifle suited to your needs. In the eastern bush who needs that :D 300WSW??
Happy shootin'

This is about what I would like my .307 Winchester to look like.

I have been thinking about putting a synthetic stock and forearm on the 307. I noticed Cabela's sells a per-fitted recoil pad for the synthetic stock. The recoil pad runs $29. I wonder what the synthetic stock and forearm cost?

Back in the 1940's, writers often said kind words about the 300 Savage. Then .308 came along and the old 300 began to fade.

When 307 was introduced, I thought it would be well received. Sort of like 300 Savage ballistics within a carbine with tubular magazine. But it never really took off in popularity.

I noticed many years ago that HUNTING magazine almost never shows a photo of a grinning hunter, dead beast, and a lever action or slide action rifle. I no longer buy this magazine. Same re-cycled articles over and over. Elk keep getting tougher too, soon they'll be laughing at hunters armed with less than 416 MAG rifles.
TR

Back in the 1940's, writers often said kind words about the 300 Savage. Then .308 came along and the old 300 began to fade.

When 307 was introduced, I thought it would be well received. Sort of like 300 Savage ballistics within a carbine with tubular magazine. But it never really took off in popularity.

I noticed many years ago that HUNTING magazine almost never shows a photo of a grinning hunter, dead beast, and a lever action or slide action rifle. I no longer buy this magazine. Same re-cycled articles over and over. Elk keep getting tougher too, soon they'll be laughing at hunters armed with less than 416 MAG rifles.
TR

History

I wonder what the ratio is between open plains hunters and those of the eastern bush .I would be intersted in knowing where the majority of firearm sales are.
We seem to be influanced by gun write ups and what might be suitable in your area may not be the best choice in mine.
In thick woods the big slow bullet works , while in the open where shots are in the 200 Plus, one might be better suited with a small bullet and speed.
At close range that small bullet and great speed,blows the projectile to kingdom come, and this is again proven over and over again as history ,as I see a lot of the WSM rifles in the used gun racks.
The bush hunter in these parts put away the 303 savage ,30,32,35 Remingtons, the 303 B, the 300 Savage just to name a few for the better speeder flatter shooting rifle

We have rediscovered the 45/70 which compared to a 300 WSm,the older girl is "a pumpin thrower."
With the the cowboy shooters intersted in cartridges back in history and write ups in gun magazines, the old war horse has come back to the woods.
But we are still conditioned to needing faster and bigger.
I wonder if we are going to rediscover the 30/40Krag, which would also fit the needs of the eastern bush hunter.

So if we were to go back 40 to fifty years why were the rifles then so good ?
Why said one hunter just a bit older than I ( 54) would I want to deer hunt with the 35 Remington Marlin Lever,when there are better and faster rounds out there ?
Well I came the next day with the 45/70 and shot the deer 100 yrs away from where he is standing.
A .458 rock at 1600 fps did the job.

Now the lever lost some ground to the bolt , but with the cowboy shootin' it has made a comeback.
So the Gun writers should be following the trend and we should be seeing write ups about the virtures of hunting with the 30/30 the 32's, the 35 rem and 303 Sav.
We should see then the new and improved faster rounds suit able to the eastern needs as the 300 Savage , the 307/308,356.358.375Winchester and " the 3006 "

Oh! history and trends repeat themselves. Dad old suit from the thirties was just back in stye a few years back! :D

I think we need to keep in mind that the people who participate on these boards are interested in guns, but we are in a relative minority compared to the number of people who buy and use rifles. In my area, most of the people who buy a Model 94 don't buy it because of the caliber, or because it's a lever action. They buy it because they want to go hunting and a Model 94 costs half as much as a decent bolt rifle, and the ammo can be had on sale for 7.99 a box. These people are in no way interested in paying more for a premium rifle at a higher price, especially one that shoots expensive ammo that could be hard to find.

There is a certain segment of the shooting public that prefers lever guns for practical or emotional reasons, but they don't buy the majority of these rifles. Hunters who want a cheap, functional rifle (and ammo) and cowboy action shooters do. I think that's the main thing that killed the .307.

William,

That would be one fantastic levergun, the 64/71 configuration in .307. I could live with a 20" barrel, but a 24" barrel would make it perfect!!

I have owned and used a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel and now use a Marlin .444 with the same 22" barrel and really like them. But in the back of my mind I always wished they both had that extra 2" of barrel. :D

I always thought a .356 in a model 64/71 would be the cat's pajamas. I have a 71, that I leave leaning against the wall by my bed, just because I love the looks of a pistol grip, short magazine and 24" barrel.

Levergun heaven!!!

I think we need to keep in mind that the people who participate on these boards are interested in guns, but we are in a relative minority compared to the number of people who buy and use rifles. In my area, most of the people who buy a Model 94 don't buy it because of the caliber, or because it's a lever action. They buy it because they want to go hunting and a Model 94 costs half as much as a decent bolt rifle, and the ammo can be had on sale for 7.99 a box. These people are in no way interested in paying more for a premium rifle at a higher price, especially one that shoots expensive ammo that could be hard to find.

There is a certain segment of the shooting public that prefers lever guns for practical or emotional reasons, but they don't buy the majority of these rifles. Hunters who want a cheap, functional rifle (and ammo) and cowboy action shooters do. I think that's the main thing that killed the .307.

I live a few hours North of Toronto. And the time of needing a cheap/cheap rifle hardly come into play. Gone are the days when every one took the battle worn 303 B into the bush, like they did in the 50's and 60's, and were careful with money.
Now with the credit card buy now pay later thinking, we no longer need to put money away ,we can have our toys now.

When the Canadain dollar went ,50 cts. to the Us dollar, the price off firearms doubled , but people are still buying the fancy bolt actions for 1000.00 to 1500.oo rang then putting scope Etc on top of it. The Model 94 went from 300. to 600.00

I was raised after the second war and in the sixties growing up as a teenager ,was allowed to shoot ground hogs with the .22 , and then you could buy a 303 B for under twenty dollars, and a case of hard points for a song, we adapted to the bolt action .You saved your money then bought what you could afford. Gone are the days when you set off with two .22 shells and got your pants kicked because you did not come home with two rabbits
Later growing up we bought winchester and remington bolt actions in 308 and 3006.( bigger- stronger than the 303)
It was in my mid fourties when I started with hand guns and was introduced to the single action revolver and Cowboy shooting.It was then I learned to handle the lever and slowly transformed to the lever action for my hunting as well.
We have four bolt action rifles left for our more open distance hunting and quite a few levers now from 357 through to 30/30 winchesters and on with the 336 /35 and 4570 Marlins and one browning BLR in 358.

Now I am one of few hunters / target shooters that also reload , and use the forum.
I realize that there are quite a few hunters that own one rifle and never fire a shot unless it is game. They will never buy a new gun since the one they got will never wear out . So let us not factor them in to the trend.
I am one that over thirty years has bought and sold at least twenty rifles, usually trading up to a newer and heavier calipier.

So slowly going to the time trust worthy bolt action to the levers was by out side forces , mainy at first because I could not shoot my 308 at the shoots and needed a lever action.
Now we never heard of thre 356 and 358 nor the model 71 and 92 winchester.When we heard of the the Marlin ER and the winchester 71 , and some of the discontined cowboy guns , we had joined shooting clubs .We never saw a add in the local paper so to us- they never were.
If I was growning up again and was handed a model 94 in 307 and told it was almost the 308 , I would have let it follow me home since the 94 winchester was common in our woods as was the 303B.


So am I one of one ,or one of many ? If one of one then how can the gun shops make a living?

Just one of many a farm boy.

ID Shooter has hit it on the head, I think.
When I ran the sporting goods counter at a large retailer, we sold lots of Marlin 30's and Winchester 94's - the beech stocked, plain Jane models. Why? They were the cheapest 'deer rifle'. They were not sold because they were 30-30 or 35 Rem or 289 Whizblaster, they were sold 'cause they were $199. Yes, it was 10 years or more ago)
Unfortunately, the 307, 356, and 375 were not made in the plain Jane model - the AE and XTR model 94's were closer to the price of bolt guns. So, the beginner didn't buy the 307, 356, and 375- if he had that much to spend, he wanted a bolt gun.
I think that fact hurt the sales of the 307 and others. Too bad, the 307 is an excellent caliber, as is the 356 and 375.

Happily and sadly I agree with what has been mentioned about the 307. When I finally started shooting the 307 I fell in love with the rifle/cartridge. But when I purchased the rifle in 2001 it was bought to be used as a platform for the wildcat 7/07 because I thought, like some, why go with the 307 when I have the 308, which was in 1996. Since then I have changed my mind because of what has been said, what tests have been conducted and from what I am learning by shooting and reloading the 307.

William is right in saying that Layne Simpson and Ken Waters gave the 307 good reviews, both in 1983 and 1984. I purchased some back copies of Handloader magazine and all contain articles written in favor of the develpment of the 307. Ken Waters stated, "If there was ever an example of a relatively uncomplicated redesign which produced a disproportionate functional improvement, this certainly it." Both writers went on to give prasie to both the 150gr and 180gr loads developed for the 307. One said that the 307 150gr had as much knock down at 100yds as the 30-30 did at 50 yards, and that the 307 drops white-tails with great authority.

But overall the negatives out weighted the positives. So now we have a great round, including it's big brothers the 356 and 375 that are holding on for their lives. Wonder how much it would cost to buy these patents from Winchester?

John

At lunch I went to the rifle range and shot a box of shells. The more I shoot this gun, the more I like it. It is accurate, low recoil (of course I am 6' 3'' and weight 235) and has a low mid point. I think with factory 180 grain shells, that the gun will have a low enough mid-point to sight the gun in at 175 yards and still be within 2 inches high or low at 200 yards.

Taylor,
Testing for drop has shown that you are correct in your 175 yard zero suggestion. It is just about right for every bullet weight. The 170-grain bullets drop about three inches at 200 yards in our experience. I have a friend with a 330-yard range at his ranch and we have shot some at this distance. My problem is range estimation. If I know the range I can hit. If I don’t know the range 225 yards is the upper limit for certain hits. Shooting at this distance requires a secure rest and for me, good light. I do not generally shoot at deer over 150 yards but it is fun to practice. The vast majority of the deer we have taken has been at less than 100 yards with many under fifty yards.
Many people forget how tough times were in the mid sixties. Money for guns was hard to come by and there were a lot of war surplus guns in the hunting fields of New Mexico. My brothers and I all used the same P-14 Enfield for our first few deer. The .303 never failed us. The .307, .300 Savage and .303 British all have about the same energy and within 200 yards there is not a lot of difference between them for deer hunting.

Taylor,
. The vast majority of the deer we have taken has been at less than 100 yards with many under fifty yards.
Many people forget how tough times were in the mid sixties. Money for guns was hard to come by and there were a lot of war surplus guns in the hunting fields of New Mexico. My brothers and I all used the same P-14 Enfield for our first few deer. The .303 never failed us. The .307, .300 Savage and .303 British all have about the same energy and within 200 yards there is not a lot of difference between them for deer hunting.

The P14 's were not in great numbers , those that were ,were usually converted to 300M or Rem& MM Mag. the 3006 version quck to be adopted as is.
The mark3 and the mark 4 Enfields were the norm in the bush , as many could be had by mail order for just under twenty dollars Imperial (Canadain owned ) made a 200 gr. and 180 gr. Plastic tip bullet and or round nose bullet that worked great here in the eastern bush at just about anything .
Most of the rifles that are in good shape and have NRA very good boresare now hard to find unless your willing to "pay the buck"
Winchester offered the 95 lever in 303B, and I always wondered why Marlin did not adapt the 336 to the cartridgeas they did with the 45/70. The 303 B served America too.

There are so many good cartridges that were used in the bush like the 35 Rem/303 B and 250, 3o3 and best of all 300 Savage , that are forgotten since the owners of most of these guns are now retiring from hunting because of age.
The lever almost died , unless it was a 30/30, most of the younger generation wanted the 308/3006 until the 762x39 hit the bush.
The SKS is strong as the rifles and ammo is dirt cheap, as was the Enfields when I was a kid.

So what do you think will come along in twenty years?

For " What Ever Ammo you can buy dirt cheap!"

The .303 British is half an inch too long for the Marlin action. That would be a nice combination if it fit.

Bye
Jack

I suspect that the people who were interested in a rimmed .30 cal rifle using pointed bullets and of modest power stuck with the .30-40 Krag in this country, it being military surplus after the '03 Springfield was adopted. The Krags are pricey now, but dirt cheap at one point.