I'm working up a new cartridge and have a question about pushing the shoulder back. I need to move a shoulder back about 1/2". I'm presently in the experimenting stage and I'm using 6mm PPC dies to push back the shoulder on 6.5 Carcano brass to match the shoulder length of the .223 case. Using new brass, I get nicely formed cases except for some minor wrinkling in the shoulder area. Is this normal or do I need to go to some sort of custom form die to do this. I don't want to invest a whole lot of money into this thing until I decide whether it's worth pursuing or not.

Thanks

Pat_t

That's a lot of forming.
Could be lube wrinkles...try witdrawing the cases after they are 1/2 formed and redistributing the lube before resizing all the way. It helps to set the die up to size in steps...lets you work with the top strok of the press where the leverage is the most favorable.

Is not unusual, and doesn't have to be a problem/ Will be into the thick part of the case by the time it's formed, so will have to neck-turn or neck-ream to get the brass thickness right for the chamber.

The wrinkled shoulder will probably blow out on firing...but wqill cause brass growth (and it will be uneven growth) so will have to trim again after firing.

Try the slightly larger seating die first, if you haven't already, then the full-length sizer.

Might have to scrounge around for some other cheap used dies and go down in smaller steps.

Hope you have a lot of brass to experiment with.....

Thanks to both of you. I thought the seating die idea was a graet idea, unfortunately they are RCBS dies and seating screw is too small to let me push the shoulder back as far as I'd like. I tried the size a bit at a time and still wind up with the wrinkles. They are very small, multiple wrinkles, more on the order of folding than lube dents. I just need to make up enough to provide my smith with a few for test-firing after he's done with my chamber, so I guess I can live with the loss of a few cases up front. I just don't want to get any blow-outs in the shoulder area. If it works out, I'll have him make up some forming dies to step down in a couple of steps.

Rooster Radical Case Re-Forming Lube is supposedly slicker than anything else out there, including Imperial and lanolin. They don't have a web site, but they're at:
Rooster Laboratories, Inc.
P.O. Box 414605
Kansas City, Missouri 64141
1-816-474-1622 roosterlabs@aol.com

Also http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3637.html

Bye
Jack

Going from .264 down to .224 is quite a bit of reduction.

The next time you're at a gun show or pawn shop, check around for some old resizing dies in .243 Win and any .25 cal. When you get home, take a saw to them and cut them down whereas you can reach the neck reduction area with your press. If the present press doesn't allow the ram to extend high enough, there are ram extensions that are on the market. Check with www.midwayusa.com or www. brownells.com for availability.

Pat_t:

1/2" movement of the shoulder probably brings it to an area that never was annealed for that kind of ductility...you're going to have some effort in sizing and proabably get some visual flaws. Most likely, firing them will remove the visual flaws...so long as there are not burn-outs, no harm-no-foul.

Haven't had any trouble forming gentle angled necks at that brass location....but more acute angles give some trouble.

But what you see on the outside is mnirrored on the inside, and as it irons out, the case will grow in length, and grow unevenly...would guess a trim per use at first until it's iorned all the way out.

Roosster's product may be a good one...have used imperial for a lot of years (and it does take a long time to actually use up a tin...and I oredered 5 of them some years back)...if I ever run out, will try the Rooster product.

That's my guess. I'm moving the shoulder back beyond the discoloration on new brass. I tried annealing some once fired Norma brass , but have never done any annealing and haven't quite worked out the details on it.

The method I tried was standing them on end in a pan of water and heating the necks and shoulders with a propane torch and tipping over into the water to quench. I'm not sure if you can get then too hot and leave them soft that way. I once owned a Rem xp100 in 7mm br and gave up on it because making brass was such a pain, before commercial brass was available.

I'm working up a new cartridge and have a question about pushing the shoulder back. I need to move a shoulder back about 1/2". I'm presently in the experimenting stage and I'm using 6mm PPC dies to push back the shoulder on 6.5 Carcano brass to match the shoulder length of the .223 case. Using new brass, I get nicely formed cases except for some minor wrinkling in the shoulder area. Is this normal or do I need to go to some sort of custom form die to do this. I don't want to invest a whole lot of money into this thing until I decide whether it's worth pursuing or not.

Thanks

Pat_t

Pat:

A bit of wrinkling when moving the shoulder is normal. I would get it on several different case reforms from cylindrical brass to bottlenecked. When forming .375 Win to .30-30 for the Contender comes to mind. These wrinkles will fireform out usually and are not harmful. Also check the vent hole in the side of the size die. Found somewhere in the threaded portion of the die, the vent hole allows air to escape as the case forms. Usually the hole is plugged with polishing grit from the manufacturer. You can locate that hole from the inside with a strong light source, and push the plug out with a paper clip wire. Case lube makes an air tight seal and air traped between the brass and die body can dent or wrinkle the case.

axlenut

The wrinkles in the shoulder of your cases are caused by excess lube causing hydraulic creasing.

I have a wildcat called the .30 HLS Cheapskate Rimmed that I form by setting the shoulder back over .650"(.303 British}.

Keep your lube on the body of the case,On the neck and shoulder down to the new shoulder,use only enough lube
to put a shine on the brass.I have formed them by using lube on the body of the case only but it takes more effort.

I remove the sizing button when setting the shoulder back,in case I stick a case in the die,it can be driven out with a rod,although I have never stuck one.

Make sure your die is kept free of excess lube in the shoulder area.

I have used this method with both fires and unfired brass with no wrinkles.

Operate the press slowly and give the brass time to flow.

Imperial sizing wax works fine.

Excess lube=wrinkled shoulders

WC

Pat

I have built a wildcat rifle/cartridge called the 300 ICL Tornado, now I am NO EXPERT, but I am moving the shoulder back about the same 1/2" as you, I am NOT changing caliber though.

I am using 30-06 brass, and the resizing die from the 300 ICL Tornado to form my brass, I used Hornady Sizing lube (the one that comes in the round tub), I spread it thin and even all the way around the upper half of the brass. I then run the brass into the die in ONE even motion.

I then trim to length by first hacksawing off about 3/8's of an inch and then trimming in my Lyman electric trimmer to the correct length.

I have not lost a piece of brass yet(knock on wood).

Here is a pic of the brass:

http://members.aol.com/murdercenter/300_tornado_forming.jpg

#1 30-06 Brass that has been run through the sizing die but not trimmed to lenght yet.
#2 Unfired/Dummy 300 Tornado Brass Sized and Trimmed to Lenght with a 168gr Match BT Seat
#3 Unfired/Dummy 300 Tornado Brass w/ 150gr Spire Point
#4 308 w/ 165gr Scrocco - For Reference
#5 308 Fired

Fire Formed Brass Picture:

http://members.aol.com/murdercenter/300_tornado_formed_cases.jpg

So the moving of the shoulder back 1/2" is no big deal, but keep in mind that I am not going to a smaller caliber, if you are going to a smaller caliber you might have to ream the inside of the neck, or trim it from the outside.

I have not done this on my brass yet, I might try it later only to get a more uniformed neck tension, but it is not needed to load, chamber, and fire the brass.

Zero

That's a good looking cartridge. What was the reasoning behind it and how does it compare to a .308?

I've been using Dillon's spray on lube. Spray it on and let it sit for a few minutes and rotate the case in my fingers to make sure it's evenly distributed. Seems to work for me. I discovered after my first post that I could partially resize the shoulder with a set of 357/44 B&D dies and finish up resizing in the 6 PPC die and haven't lost a case since.

I used to get a lot of lube dents back when I used a pad and RCBS goo, but I clean my dies after use to prevent buildup, and the spray on lube doesn't coat quite so heavy, so for the most part lube dents a a thing of the past for me.

The wrinkles I was getting here opened up to physical cracks through the case when I run them down over the expander mandrel, so my guess is that I was just trying to go to fast and do it in one step.

For what it's worth I'm going from 6.5mm to 6mm so the neck size thing wasn't the problem. My problem was with pushing the shoulder back.

That's a good looking cartridge. What was the reasoning behind it and how does it compare to a .308?

I've been using Dillon's spray on lube. Spray it on and let it sit for a few minutes and rotate the case in my fingers to make sure it's evenly distributed. Seems to work for me. I....Snip

Pat

Well the reasoning was I always wanted something a little different, I have some other rounds that are kinda unique, 357Automag, 41Jurras Magnum Pistol, 357/45 Grizzly, 400 Corbon, and 440 Corbon, but nothing all that truely unique.

So as a project I built this rifle, I got the Idea from the PO acklet book. How is compares to the 308, is what I would call a 308 +P. I can get about another 250fps outta it, just a hair under 30-06.

I too use the dillon spray when using my Dillon 650, its about the best spray lube.

I am glad that you are having more success with you brass. Hope it continues to go well.

Zero