I just got my '58 in .44 cal and wanted some suggestions on target loads

First off get the magnum #11 caps, and learn to pinch them slightly before capping. The get yourself some real BP. It has so much easy to ignite and the substitutes just don't seem to want to go off when you really need them to. I prefer Triple F grainulation so I can use it in my 58 as well as my BP rifle, and I also don't mind the extra expense of Wonder-wads over my powder charge, as they seem to keep things cleaner and most accurate. 22 grains of FFFG was my target load, and it's also important to figure out which size ball your '58 likes, so start with the most popular size and don't buy in bulk until you know which size it is. One more thing is that the '58 sometimes will blow he caps apart and get jammed in between the frame and cylinder, so tipping the barrel straight up after every shot and coming down on your target may help eliminate this problem. 30 grains was the max load, but even then the recoil wasn't bad; but the smoke is just grand!
Is your's a steel or brass frame? Pietta, Uberti, etc?
I just got my '58 in .44 cal and wanted some suggestions on target loads

Just like to add that getting a conversion cylinder (I prefer the Kirst design), allows you to shoot .45 Colt loads out of your '58 frame, providing it's steel and you use cowboy loads only.

YOu don't need Magnum caps for cap and ball revolvers. It's a waste of money; they usually cost more.
The powder volume in cap and ball revolvers is small, compared to the volume in rifles, for which the No. 11 Magnum cap was designed.
Just buy regular caps.
As to target loads, in my own Uberti-made 1858 Remington I shoot up to 40 grains of Goex FFFG black powder, under a .454 inch ball. This is a MAXIMUM load and will set your upper limits.
For target shooting, I like 25 grains of the same powder. Add a felt wad and ram it onto the powder.
Add corn meal to a point just below the mouth of the chamber.
Finally, seat a .454 or .457-inch ball firmly on that lubricated wad. This will bring the ball to a point just below flush of the chamber mouth.
There is no need to put lubricant over the ball if you are using a well-greased felt wad.
I don't much care for the dry lubricant found on Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads.
The best lubricant I've found is homemade, and dates to the 19th century:
1 part paraffin
1 part tallow
1/2 part beeswax
All measures are by weight, not volume. Use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients. This will nearly fill a quart Mason jar.
For paraffin, use canning paraffin. It's purer than what might be found in scrap candles, especially the scented variety.
For tallow, I use mutton tallow sold by Dixie Gun Works. This makes an especially fine lubricant.
Beeswax should be the real stuff, not the synthetic stuff most often encountered today as a toilet seal ring.
Beeswax may be found at gun shows, Renaissance Fairs, Mountain Man Rendezvous and hobby shops. Beekeepers usually have plenty of it. Call your County Extension agent to find beekeepers in your area.

Place the ingredients in a wide-mouth quart Mason jar. Place the jar into 3 or 4 inches of boiling water. This gives you a double boiler effect, which is the safest way to melt greases and waxes.
When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate.
When the lubricant is cool, screw the lid down tight and store it in a cool, dry place.
Now, here's how to easily grease those felt wads.
Get a tuna or similar pet food can. Add 2 or 3 Tablespoons of lubricant to the can, and place the can on a burner at very low heat. You don't want to cook the lubricant, just melt it.
When completely melted, add 100 or so wads. Stir the wads a bit to ensure they soak up plenty of lubricant.
Remove the can from the heat and allow to cool. Now, snap a pet food plastic lid over the can and you now have a handy place to store the wads, to take to the range.
When you run low on wads, simply remelt what's in the can, add more lubricant and wads, and start over.
This lubricant recipe is very old. It's an original recipe that factories once used to lubricate the heeled bullets on outside-lubricated bullets, such as the .41 Colt and .38 Long Colt.
The paraffin in this recipe is a crucial ingredient when it comes to lubricating wads. It stiffens the wad and helps it to scrape fouling from the bore. It works better, in this regard, than a soft lubricant like Crisco or Bore Butter.
Now, here's how to load that revolver for best accuracy.
In the .44, use .454 or .457 inch balls. When the oversized ball is rammed into the chamber, it creates a wider bearing surface for the rifling to grip, compared to the oft-recommended .451 inch ball.
Here are the steps to best load it:
1. Add a measured amount of powder.
2. Thumb a greased felt wad into the charged chamber.
3. Ram the wad down firmly on the powder, If you're using corn meal or any other filler, add it on top of the felt wad. This puts the wad's lubricant near the powder, where it should be.
4. Finally, firmly seat the ball on top of the filler. With the larger balls, you'll shave a ring of lead but don't be concerned. That's what you want. This makes for a good seal.
5. There is no need to put grease over the ball if you use a well-lubricated wad as outlined above.
6. Pinch each cap into a slightly oblong shape and place it on the nipple. This oblong shape will help the cap cling to the nipple, preventing its falling off or being blown off by blast and recoil.
7. Wear eye and ear protection before shootng.

I rarely put grease over a ball when I use greased, felt wads. This includes my use of full loads.
The 40 gr. load above is an exception. In my revolver, there is not enough room for 40 grs. of FFFG AND a felt wad, so I have to forego the wad and put grease over the balls after seating.
Don't use automtoive grease, or any petroleum product. Crisco, lard or Bore Butter are all good for greasing the ball.
Have fun!

Slick50:
I have a 1858 new army, they are a blast to shoot. More fun than my other handguns for some reason. Kind of like reloading except you do it "on the spot", 6 at a time...lol.
The loads I use are .454" sprueless balls,wonder wads and 30gr's of 777.
I wouldn't suggest starting out with 30grs of 777 though. With the pressure and velocity differences from blackpowder and Pyrodex compared to 777, it may not be safe in your gun. I experimented around with mine before I settled on that load.

Gatofeo:
I haven't ever used filler, what is it's purpose?
I got my revolver from Traditions, do you know who makes their revolvers?

Slick50:
I have a 1858 new army, they are a blast to shoot. More fun than my other handguns for some reason. Kind of like reloading except you do it "on the spot", 6 at a time...lol.
The loads I use are .454" sprueless balls,wonder wads and 30gr's of 777.
I wouldn't suggest starting out with 30grs of 777 though. With the pressure and velocity differences from blackpowder and Pyrodex compared to 777, it may not be safe in your gun. I experimented around with mine before I settled on that load.

Gatofeo:
I haven't ever used filler, what is it's purpose?
I got my revolver from Traditions, do you know who makes their revolvers?

Filler is used on top of powder charges...so you can use a light load of powder, some corn meal (I live in the South, so I use grits), and a ball and still get compression with a lighter powder charge (and to keep the ball near the end of the cylinder when it won't have so far to "jump" to find rifling).

The quick and dirty test for who made it is where did they put the "Black Powder Only" stamp...if its on the bottom of the barrel and covered by the loading lever, then Umberti...if it's on the side of the barrel, then Pietta...other makers vary, but those two are the big players in the repop. field.

ribbonstone:
Thanks, I went surfing around after I posted this and found out it was a Pietta and when I got your post I went and looked at the gun and you are right on the money! I think that is the only gun I've ever bought that I didn't even know who made it :p

I never thought about that use for a filler, it makes perfect sense now. Hence the word "filler" :o That makes me wonder if that's why my gun shot so far off when I was trying to use lighter loads. Sometimes I amaze myself with my ignorance. :D

Filler just allows such a light charge to be used and still maintain good powder compression.

Some people have found a good light target load using fillers...can be amazed how well they can shoot with as little as 15gr. of powder; if you're not a dedicated target shooter, it's not a "must do" as full charges will shot well.

Yep, Ribbonstone is right on this. Fillers allow good powder compression.
Black powder and its substitutes burn erratic if not slightly or firmly compressed, unlike smokeless powders that can burn efficiently without compression.
The use of a filler also places the ball close to rear of the barrel --- the area known as the forcing cone. With the ball so close, the leap to the barrel is reduced. The less leap, the less distortion of the ball and accuracy is improved.
However, you may not notice an improvement in some guns simply because their sights are rudimentary and work against keeping a consistent sight picture. Or they are crudely made.
I have one copy of a Colt 1849 in .31 caliber that, at 25 yards, will put its five tiny balls into and around a 4X4-foot sheet of plywood at 25 yards from a benchrest!
Accuracy with this revolver is horrible! It was made in the mid 1970s in Italy, I believe, and has the roughest, unpolished bore I've ever seen. No amount of load development or tinkering can overcome that bore, so it's used as a wall hanger.
To get good accuracy, you must begin with a well-made gun.

I bought a Traditions copy of the 1860 Colt Army a couple of years ago and was delighted with the quality. It's made by Pietta. So you likely have a good gun there.

Gatofeo:

Work with that .31...it will do better than that. BVought one after long wanting one (always got lured away by the big bores and never got "roundtuit" until last year). At first, was an even bet to miss the barn door from inside the barn....but started to notice a few things.

The little ones demande a perfect ball...seem to resent being "mushed" when seating...and seem to perk up on cahrge weight sin the 10-13gr. range. Use the slightly excess depth for seating to use LOTS of good soft lube. If you've some Tripple Seven, it's worth a try...and it will perk-up the velocity a good bit.


IF you still can't get it to shoot, make me a price on the little fella and I'll take a crack at it.

Very interesting thread! I have been shooting 1858 Remingtons, originals and repos, for most of my adult life.
An interesting one I have now is the 1858 Remington "New army" Carbine by Uberti. It is very accurate and I have killed one hog with it.........James

Tell us about your hog and the load that brought it down. How much more velocity to you get/estimate from the longer barrel?
Very interesting thread! I have been shooting 1858 Remingtons, originals and repos, for most of my adult life.
An interesting one I have now is the 1858 Remington "New army" Carbine by Uberti. It is very accurate and I have killed one hog with it.........James

The load I use in the Uberti Remington 1858 New Army carbine is as follows:
Speer .454" round ball
30 grs FFFg 777
one Ox-Yoke wad over the powder
Johnson Wax over the ball
Remington Black Label #11 caps/ with Amco nipples
Plastic tubes over the caps.
The hog weighed about 150 pounds @ 40 yards.....shot hit between ear and eye. It blew the eyes out of the sockets.
Not a big hog or long range, but should work well in the heavy cover.
It is obvious that there is quite a bit more velocity with the 18" barrel, but I have not run it over the chrony.
For hogs, one might be better off with conicals? As for accuracy, I get about 3"/4"- 6 shot groups at 50 yards with my old eyes and those iron sights, but I think there is more accuracy potential. All in All...a real fun firearm....James

I don't know about using conicals. In my experience they simply haven't been as accurate as a lead ball.
Trying to seat a conical straight in the chamber is the bugaboo. The Lee design is okay. Lately, I"ve been tinkering with it in my Uberti-made copy of the 1858 Remington and my Pietta-made copy of the 1860 Colt, both in .44 caliber.
This bullet seems to be the most accurate I've found (4" six-shot groups at 25 yards from a benchrest) but it still can't beat a lead ball (often, 2" groups in the same circumstances).
I've not had much luck with the .36 caliber Lee conical bullet, in either .375 or .380 inch.
I recently obtained the Lee .450 inch conical mould and cast some bullets from it. It shows more promise than the .36 caliber.
One thing about conicals, you have to reduce the powder charge significantly to allow room for their greater length than a ball.
In my Remington, this means 30 grs. of Goex FFFG instead of the 40 grs. I can use under the ball (without a greased felt wad). With the greased felt wad, which I prefer, I use 35 grs. of Goex FFFG under a .454 inch ball.
I don't use a greased felt wad under the conical bullet. The conical bullets I use are well-greased with an old time bullet lubricant recipe of:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight. I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients and then put them in a quart Mason jar. The jar goes into three or four inches of boiling water until all ingedients are melted.
Then, stir the ingredients with a clean stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to cool at room temperature.
This creates a very good lubricant useful for all black powder applications: felt wads, patches, bullets, bullets in cartridge guns, etc.
One last thing about the conicals. I learned years ago that their bases must be well filled-out or you'll get aggravating flyers.
I believe that Lee used to make the .44 caliber conical mould in a hollowpoint version. With 35 grains of FFFG in that carbine, that soft lead hollowpoint might be a good one for hogs --- or it may lack penetration and tend to expand on the surface.
Only way to tell is to shoot a hog with one.
You go ahead ... I'll be way back here in this tree, watching you with binoculars ... :D

I would like to have one of those carbines but I worry about if I had a chainfire, what would happen to my "off hand" being in front of the cylinder :eek: The first C&B revolver I ever shot was my older brothers and it chainfired the first shot! It took me a lot of years to talk myself into getting a C&B revolver!
I was wondering if any of you could tell me what my muzzle velocity is with my 1858 New Army? I have found the stats on it with 25grns and figured about what it might be with an extra 5grns but would like to know for sure. It has an 8" barrel, using #11 caps with 30grns of 777, a wonder wad and .454" sprueless round balls.
I can't check it because my chrono is messed up, thanks to a handloaded "accelerator" :(
I can tell you for a fact that even plastic is extremely dangerous when it is traveling 5000+ f.p.s. :D

I ma going to be doing some chrony work on some slug development in the next few weeks and will run the carbine over and see what velocity it working at with a round ball and 30 grs of 777.
By the way, the carbine has a extension on the trigger guard where you hold (steady) the gun with your left hand.

James Gates:
An extension? So if you hold a carbine correctly when you fire it, your left hand would be safe?
I found an article online, night before last I think, where a guy had chrono'd some loads out of an 1858 using 777 with a 7 1/2" barrel and he got an average velocity of 845fps, I had calculated with some "guesstimation" about 825fps.
That's pretty close to an 8" barrel. Does that velocity sound about right?

Although the pictire of the carbine is too small, look at the trigger guard and you can see the little curved extension. Holding the carbine normal with the right hand and your left hand index finger on the extension.....much like a two handed hold on you pistol.
I really think the little carbine, with its 18" barrel, might surbrise us as to velocity. Anyway, it's a fun gun.......James

Compared with even the 7 1/2 inch pistols, I think adding another 300fps out of your carbine wouldn't be overly optimistic.
Although the pictire of the carbine is too small, look at the trigger guard and you can see the little curved extension. Holding the carbine normal with the right hand and your left hand index finger on the extension.....much like a two handed hold on you pistol.
I really think the little carbine, with its 18" barrel, might surbrise us as to velocity. Anyway, it's a fun gun.......James

I will getting into this sport shortly so I can go out with my Inlaws to the range. I'm not a hunter. Since them taking me to the range I've been hooked. I have had the pleasure of trying several hand guns and rifles, but not a BP firearm yet.
My plans are to get the Ruger Vaquero SS .357 and the 58 Remington (Uberti?). I just love the looks of the 58 Rem.
The Questions start here. Are my choices for these manufactures fine? Why the use of a lubricated pad or felt wad btwn the BP and lead ball? My inlaw loads his 60 Army with the ball directly over the BP then swedges a grease (type)
over that.
My intentions are to put holes in paper and the firearms will be cleaned after every use of course.
I posted this here because of my interest in the 58 Rem Army.
My interest in this particular gun also rose to a new level after reading about the Kirst conversion for this firearm as well.

'58 Remingtons are made by several different places. I prefer the Uberti, especially those imported by Cimarron, as they hold Uberti to a bit higher standard. Be advised that the conversion cylinders are made for each maker and are usually not interchangable. I know the Kirst/Uberti model is .002 of an inch shorter than the Pietta. Call and ask to speak to Mr. Kirst himself, as he takes great pride his product and if he isn't in a meeting he likes to talk to folks like you and I. As for the wads, I have always used one over the powder, was taught to do it that way, and have always thought that this was the only way to get a good seal and get the most out of your powder charge. Greasing the top of the chambers is to prevent chain fires; when you pop the cap on one and the powder in the others catches fire and all go off at once. Not a nice sound or feeling! The lead balls should be large enough so that when the are seated by the rammer, a little lead is removed, almost a ring in fact. This too ensures a good seal, but make sure you get them out of the action before you start rotating a charged chamber into battery, or it will lock up and jam. I found that the Kirst conversion was very accurate, easy to load and easy to clean. You cannot put anything hotter than cowboy loads through it. That means 1000fps or less, and 750-900 is actually optimal. Now, the problem is going to arise that shooting .45 Colt through your '58 using the conversion cylinder, plus having a Ruger in .38/.357 is going to force you to chose one of those caliber for your rifle, and dealing with the two at a match can be frustrating, I know. :( However, getting extra cylinders for the Remington and having them pre-loaded but not capped allows you a lot more shooting time, and for less money. You can by a loading tool so you don't need the frame when pouring the powder and seating the ball. You'll have to find the size ball that shoots the best as well as the right load, but that's the real fun now isn't it? Mine liked #11 caps and a 22 grain charge of FFFG, but real black powder always worked best, and I don't know if that had to do with the temp or humidity or what. I highly recommend a product called Wipe-out for cleaning. It cleans black powder residue very well, and my local SASS club had an all BP match July 31. There were more than a few folks who asked me for a bit of the foaming cleaner after the match when we were all cleaning up. It's not for brass though, so it's a no-no for brass framed or getting on your shells, but one little can lasts a long time (unless your buddies see you with a can and can't stand you getting cleaned up so quickly!)
Hope this helps, and PM me if you want me to forward some article on BP shooting and the '58 Remington repros. Keep your powder dry!
I will getting into this sport shortly so I can go out with my Inlaws to the range. I'm not a hunter. Since them taking me to the range I've been hooked. I have had the pleasure of trying several hand guns and rifles, but not a BP firearm yet.
My plans are to get the Ruger Vaquero SS .357 and the 58 Remington (Uberti?). I just love the looks of the 58 Rem.
The Questions start here. Are my choices for these manufactures fine? Why the use of a lubricated pad or felt wad btwn the BP and lead ball? My inlaw loads his 60 Army with the ball directly over the BP then swedges a grease (type)
over that.
My intentions are to put holes in paper and the firearms will be cleaned after every use of course.
I posted this here because of my interest in the 58 Rem Army.
My interest in this particular gun also rose to a new level after reading about the Kirst conversion for this firearm as well.

I have always leaned toward Uberti's products. As for chain fires.....it has happened and will again if certain things are not done. Some photo tests surprised everyone when some showed the problem came from cap flash.
I have never had a chain fire when I did the following:
(1) an Ox-Yoke wad between the powder and ball.
(2) Johnson Wax applied over the seated ball with a sucker stick.
(3)and....the little plastic tubes over the caps (leave exposed cap above the tubes)
These little tubes not only stop cap fragments, help secure the the caps, but also reduce moisture getting into the caps.
Now.....I have not run my load for the carbine over the chrony....but I did see the results on a hogs at about 30 yards. The ball went into the ear, blew the eyes out of the sockets, a put the hog down in its tracks. Is this a good test? Maybe and maybe not! Since there are a lot of deer killed during crop damage control by being shot in the lungs, I think a .454" ball would do the same within 75 yards. A wild hog, shot in the shoulder, might be another situation?
Let's put it this way.....There are a lot of deer killed in close with a bow. I think the carbine would work well within the same bow range.
I am going to play with it during our ML season here in Florida and will report the success (or failure).....James

Thanx for the replies. I'm glad to be joining this community.
Just found out that we'll be shooting with BP this Saturday. Can't wait!!
The Rifle I have in mind is the 85 High Wall 30" in 45/70.
My father inlaw has the same gun but the 28" carbine. What a "blast" to shoot with. He also is all set up for reloading for multiple calibers. That is why the cartridge diff. Just looking for some variety.
I'd love for you to forward me those articles.
Thanx again!!

There's a good article in the Cowboy Chronical (printed by the Single Action Shooting Society) about reshaping the nipple of your cap and ball gun using an electric drill and a fine tooth file so that the cap slips on but then stays on without the need to pinch the primer or seat it with your finger or a dowel. The author shows his thumb missing a chunk out of it after he pressed on a cap and it went off, igniting the powder in the chamber with the resulting hot gas coming back through the nipple and peeling off the skin down to the bone. Ouch! Didn't know that could happen but certainly worth preventing.
Thanx for the replies. I'm glad to be joining this community.
Just found out that we'll be shooting with BP this Saturday. Can't wait!!
The Rifle I have in mind is the 85 High Wall 30" in 45/70.
My father inlaw has the same gun but the 28" carbine. What a "blast" to shoot with. He also is all set up for reloading for multiple calibers. That is why the cartridge diff. Just looking for some variety.
I'd love for you to forward me those articles.
Thanx again!!

First off get the magnum #11 caps, and learn to pinch them slightly before capping. The get yourself some real BP. It has so much easy to ignite and the substitutes just don't seem to want to go off when you really need them to. I prefer Triple F grainulation so I can use it in my 58 as well as my BP rifle, and I also don't mind the extra expense of Wonder-wads over my powder charge, as they seem to keep things cleaner and most accurate. 22 grains of FFFG was my target load, and it's also important to figure out which size ball your '58 likes, so start with the most popular size and don't buy in bulk until you know which size it is. One more thing is that the '58 sometimes will blow he caps apart and get jammed in between the frame and cylinder, so tipping the barrel straight up after every shot and coming down on your target may help eliminate this problem. 30 grains was the max load, but even then the recoil wasn't bad; but the smoke is just grand!
Is your's a steel or brass frame? Pietta, Uberti, etc?
howdy....why do u say to get urself some real black powder?

You can tell how old I am when I say that I had two original Remington 1858's back in the 60's. One had a cone front sight and the other one had a sight like today's Uberti's. Both had battle sights and shot high. Following that, I had various modern made. I am now on my third Ruger Old Army's
Track of the Wolf has some gold colored AMPCO nipples that are the best I have ever used! If one looks around you can find the small plastic tubes that slip down over the cap when its on the nipple. The best idea I have seen for guns used in damp climate like here in Florida.
Now, about powder....and this will cause sone gnashing of teeth! Here at Dixie Slugs, we have tested all matter of black and substitute powders for accuracy. corrosiveness. etc. The winner, hands down, is Black Mag 3 (when you can find it). We use it in special order 12 ga 2 1/2" shells, plus all of our ML hunting guns, including our pistols. Some care must be done when using 777...it's hotter and needs nipples with a very small hole in the bottom. During our first tests with an old nipple, it blew that hammer of a Grey Hawk to the half-notch. We also found Pyrodex to be somewhat corrorsive in damp weather. The best blackpowder we found was Swiss.
We also use the Ox-Yoke wad over the powder, under the ball....plus some Bore Butter on top....more for damp weather than anything else.
As for using a drill and fine file to custom fit caps to nipples....I've done it and it works....but stopped when we found the mentioned AMPCO nipples.
We have also tested all manner of caps by various makers for velocity, how clean, fit, fire. etc.....The best we have found are the CCI #11 Mag's...for fit, fire, etc.
There has been quite a discussion as to whether a BP handgun can be used on deer size game. I have killed deer and hogs within 30 yards very dead with the Ruger Old Army....457" ball and 35 grs of Black Mag 3. Beyond that, I just don't know.
There is a tendency to think these 44 and 45 cap and ball pistols are not powerful compared to moderns on game within a reasonable distance.....that's nonsense and tells me they have not used then on game. They are the best backup I know of when you are hunting with a single shot ML rifle (or shotgun).
Although my favorite is the Ruger Old Army....the Remingtons are great pistols, if made by Uberti.
Regards, James

howdy....why do u say to get urself some real black powder?
Well, my previous statement came before I had any experience with the black powder substitute; Triple 7.
Either way, using real black powder, meaning the centuries old mixture, or Triple 7, a 21st century invention, will give you more reliable ignition than the other substitues, in my experience. Traditional gun powder is a dark black, with the modern "smokeless" powders being anywhere from dark grey to nearly black, so the old formula was just called "black" powder when the new formula came along in the late 19th century.

Black powder is considered an explosive, although a low power version and because it's burn is incomplete, leaving behind unburned ingrediants as well as soot from the shot itself, "smokeless powder" took over as the propellant for the new cartridges. BP substitutes try to mimic that orginal formula by giving the same type of pressure curve ( a pop/boom more than a bang), the same volume of smoke and most of all to be compatable with muzzle loading. Each one has a different ignition point, some higher, some lower, than the original gun powder, thus some of the subs are more difficult to ignite depending on a range of varibles such as humidity, caliber, amount of compression, type of cap used to set off the load; etc.

Real black powder is quite easy to set off and gives consistent, repeatable results. Substitutes may not perform as well as I have learned, so starting off muzzle loading is usually best to use the real stuff.

I now have experience with Triple 7, a BP substitute, and while it has more energy it tends to be easy to set off, much the same as the traditional formula. Having said this, I must remind everyone that since Triple 7 was formulated to be more powerful, you must start out at least 15% lower than what is called for when using black or other subs. I like it very much and it gives me a very clean burning load with all the smoke and bang I need.

this more of a question am in the process of getting a 44 remington and noticed on a google site a loading device for loading the cylinder out of the frame I havent seen any of these in the UK,can anyone suggest a site where I may be able to look at one of these I may have to end up making one or perhaps send to the states for a catalouge which show them

regards.

http://www.powderinc.com/images/cyls.gif









http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/cyl_loader.htm
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=718309http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/highres/718309.jpg
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=718309

Good reading;
http://www.curtrich.com/frontiersmen3.html

thanks SFT for that info we do have a Midway UK. I will have to try and get hold of there catalouge and see if they list them.

Ok People find this hard to believe . I have a 1858 rem 44 and i havent cleaned it for at least 2 yrs , and the barrel looks fine , action functions flawlessy and it is extreamly acurate . I think my secrit is lamb fat . I dont buy it , just clean it out of the frying pan after cooking some lamb chops . Never used a wad or any filler . Just use a powder horn and i think from memory it throws about 25 grains of fff black powder . Use the same horn and put 2 charges down my 45 hawkens and it shoots really well to . I think the lambs fat covering the ball just kinda cures into the gun , just like how a old cast iron fryingpan never needs cleaning .

At my club , although I'm only a average pistol shot , I regularly win the black powder matchs with my dirty greasy old gun and my lambs fat . I recon 150yr ago people wouldnt have stuffed around like people do with there cap and ball revolvers these days .

Glad I could help.