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Funny.... my mother just got a Glock for concealed carry, which is something I thought I'd never witness (her carrying a gun that is).

So.... before we get into the age-old caliber debate, what sort of level of proficiency does she have with handguns?

Glocks are pretty simple.... I do believe they are one of the better choices for concealed-carry (with an appropriate holster!!!!).... but they are not necessarily easy to shoot.

Somewhat crappy triggers (even for an auto), light, most of the gun weight above the hand (frame weighs practically nothing), and chambered in some pretty hot calibers..... those characteristics don't lend themselves to fine precision shooting.

The bigger the cartridge, the bigger the grip... and the average woman's hand isn't going to mate well with a double-stack .40, 10mm, or .45.

Not that self-defense requires the level of accuracy as bullseye shooting - but - you'd certainly like to see a person achieve some proficiency in a weapon that might be called upon for defense.

Long way around to get to my conclusion: If she isn't an experienced auto-pistol shooter already, stay with a full-sized 9mm. Yeah I know, this might not be a popular choice among the experienced shooters here - but ammo is cheap, recoil is manageable, the guns seem to last longer and have fewer problems than with the larger calibers, and very effective defense ammo is widely availble. Also you can still find hi-cap magazines.

All boils down to what you can do to help her make the first-shot hit under poor circumstances (stress, etc.).

Dogs tend to be much more aggressive than hogs, and a 9 should be plenty. Hogs are usually known to charge only when already wounded and cornered. Besides, their heads aren't bulletproof :) I know a guy who put a .32 Cor-Bon through a hog's head (short range finishing shot), and we were both pretty surprised that it exited with a good wound channel (about a quarter-sized exit hole as I recall).

Given the info, I would agree. Stick with a Glock17, an a double stack clip. Keep it full of XTP's, or Cor-BON's and you can deter any mis-guided critter that might come her way.

barronavery,

Unless she is an enthusiastic shooter, the Glock is not a good choice. I feel very strongly that the lack of a safety mechanism that must be consciously manipulated combined with a rather light trigger pull is an accident waiting to happen unless the new Glock owner practices a great deal with their new pistol. The documented cases of accidental discharges with the Glock are legendary. A close friend is currently in Iraq and part of his duties are to train the new National Police. He has told me in e-mail that he fears his allies and their Glocks at least as much as the enemy terrorists. Simply put, the Glock is not a beginner's gun.

For dog and hog defence, I'd suggest a 3-4" barreled, medium frame .357 magnum revolver loaded for starters with .38 Special +P 158-grain SWC-HP rounds. If your mom can handle the increased recoil of Magnum loads, try the 145-grain Winchester Silvertip or 130-grain Federal Hydra-Shok Personal Protection. She can also load snakeshot rounds in the revolver, something quite rare and of dubious function in an automatic. Nevertheless, if she feels an absolute need for a self-loader, look towards the S&W 5900-series of 9mm's. They come in versions with a traditional thumb safety as well as double action-only that mimic the revolver in simple and safe operation.

I got to agree with Mr. Lester. A revolver in .357 with a four inch bbl is easy to carry and loaded with light 38 special or 357 is very accurate. Smith makes an 8 shot version that comes close to the autos ability of lots of rounds. It is easier to learn to shoot than an auto and can be fired double action for quick shots and single action for accuracy. Practice is inexpensive with 38 ammo.

Good luck in your quest

I can tell if I'm going to be spending any kind of time around here, Mr. Lester and I are going to be getting along fabulously.:D

Presumption #1, your mom is familiar with guns and semi-autos and has every opportunity to practice ... at least, that's what I'd expect with a part-time forester frequently in the woods having carried pistols for snakes and such up 'til now.

Presumption #2, and this is the big one ... any pig she'll run across will be scared by the mere sound of a shot fired over its head. If we're talkin' 300lbs+ Russians here, your mom should consider retirement.;)

Issue #1, I'll have to take exception to Mr. Lester's comment that the "documented cases of accidental discharges with the Glock are legendary" and suggest that ... well ... they're not even close. A Glock is no more difficult to operate than any revolver ... and, in all but extreme circumstances (see Charlie Vaneck), no less safe. In fact, along the lines of what MikeG was saying, I HIGHLY recommend ANY Glock owner spend another $30 at any quality gun shop and have a 3.5lbs trigger connector put in. This is the single biggest improvement anyone can make to a Glock and, doing so, puts it on par with some of the finest handguns in the world (see David Sevigny ... actually, I believe he uses a stock trigger). As for the Iraqi's ... well ... I never thought much of them anyhow.:mad: Oh ya, it might interest anyone to know that last year I saw an 11yr-old (oh, ok ... he was just about to turn 12) shooting a Glock (34, I believe) at one of our matches ... he kicked my ... but. And he didn't have one single AD.:D

As for caliber, in a Glock ... or any semi-auto ... for the circumstances you've mentioned, I'd recommend a .45gap FMJ. I'm all about big holes for woods carry ... no matter what you think your risks are limited to. The Glock 37 is DESIGNED to have the same size grip as a 9mm. As well, the .45gap pressures are supposed to be no more than .45acp ... and yet, the ballistics are nearly identical. Also, the Glock 37 has a Glock 21 slide which, like my Glock 20, affords excellent follow-up opportunities ... should that hog charge ... or she finds herself on the wrong side of some Black cubs. FMJ 'cause a dog won't care about the difference and your only other option is likely to be JHP and I just don't like the idea of that on a feral hog. Oh ya, and in case all the anti-Glock stuff gets to ya, I believe Springfield is making a version of its XD (bastar ... uh ... mutant stepchild of Glock) in .45gap soon ... although, I think the Glock having the top of the grip closer to the bore center-line affords better follow-ups ... did I mention the Glock 21 slide on that thing?:D

Also, I saw just the other day that Gander Mtn has the Glock 37 for $450 brand new ... likely 'cause the only good use for it is ... well ... for a female part-time forester.:D

However, for woods carry, I have to admit, I'm a believer that anyone will likely shoot a dozen snakes before any bear ... or hog ... or dog. As such, I'm afraid I'm going to have to echo the battle-cry for a revo here. But, as hogs are, presumably, a concern ... and, presuming Blacks might be ... in this case, I would HIGHLY recommend http://firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=301523&item=865451&sw_activeTab=1 and some shotshells in the first couple holes. I'm not sure how pricey those are ... but, in case they are, try a Taurus 450 stainless. Cowboy-action loads for gettin' used to ... and ... well ... I guess you gotta get a handloader to load up something between the cowboy-action and CorBon grizzly-killers:rolleyes:. Actually, if you prefer to ignore my advice regarding the FMJ, you can get some CorBon JHP's loaded in the realm of "medium" ... designed to compete with .357 for CCW. Honestly, if all your mom ever carries is the cowboy-action stuff, for all but the most extreme cases, I'd suggest she'd be very well off.

The only other thing is ... a revo's gonna likely be 2lbs or more. Even that stainless Taurus is 28oz. Whereas, just about any Glock is about 23oz ... and more firepower to boot. So long as your mom can hit a snake with a bullet, I'd say the Glock 37 is a slam dunk here.

Good luck.

Oh ya, I meant to say that that 8-shot .357 is an N-frame ... could be a bit big for mom's hands.:confused:

A couple of further thoughts:

Snakes in the woods are hugely over-rated. If it's not in your yard, or a populated area, just walk off and leave it. Have NEVER heard of a rattlesnake charging..... if it's close enough to need shooting, right between the eyes with a solid bullet will get the job done. Snakeshot, in a wilderness area, is a cruel joke played on shooters, in my opinion.... now in a barn or something where you have livestock, might make more sense, except a hoe is even better. My great-aunt, knocking on 80, kills rattlesnakes around her house with basic garden implements... 'nuff said.

Hogs - agree, if they've been hunted at all, they'll be high-tailing it out of there. If a big one charges, climb something fast.... gonna wish you had brought a .30-06.

Feral dogs - now, that's a horse of a different color. They run in packs, and are VERY dangerous because they aren't necessarily afraid of humans. This is one scenario where more IS better, more rounds that is.

As for putting in a lighter trigger on an auto with no safety - let's just say I don't agree with that at all!!!

ADs or NDs or whatever with Glocks CAN and DO happen.... with novice shooters, for the most part, but 'novice' apparently includes a lot of police officers in major east coast cities. Yes, if you don't pull the trigger, it won't happen. But it does and a heavier trigger can prevent the 'shooter error' that leads to such things. Doesn't have to be 50 lbs but there is no reason that it can't be the same pull as a typical DA revolver.... and still be shootable. Lighter trigger is a step in the wrong direction.... if that's not what you meant by the 3.5lb disconnector, then I misunderstood. Anyway, that's one gun where I do agree with the factories that a heavier trigger pull is the way to go.

Anyway I carry a revolver, for what that's worth.

As for putting in a lighter trigger on an auto with no safety - let's just say I don't agree with that at all!!!

ADs or NDs or whatever with Glocks CAN and DO happen.... with novice shooters, for the most part, but 'novice' apparently includes a lot of police officers in major east coast cities. Yes, if you don't pull the trigger, it won't happen. But it does and a heavier trigger can prevent the 'shooter error' that leads to such things. Doesn't have to be 50 lbs but there is no reason that it can't be the same pull as a typical DA revolver.... and still be shootable. Lighter trigger is a step in the wrong direction.... if that's not what you meant by the 3.5lb disconnector, then I misunderstood. Anyway, that's one gun where I do agree with the factories that a heavier trigger pull is the way to go.

The 3.5lbs trigger connector is STOCK on the Glock 34 and 35. Do you agree with the factory in that case?:D

The 3.5lbs trigger connector is a Glock factory replacement part available for EVERY Glock model. How 'bout now?:D

If you show up at a GSSF match, with your gun, a Glock factory rep will be happy to install it for you, as well as clean your gun thoroughly, for no charge. And now?:D

If you've never tried the 3.5lbs connector, how do YOU know how dangerous it really is? It's only $30. Why not give it a try? It took me months to get over C&L on a 1911 ... so I understand why you're hesitant. I trusted somebody on the 1911 once ... maybe you could trust me now.

See 2nd rule http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp. If someone hasn't learnt the 2 MOST important gun safety rules (any copy which doesn't have 'em, in that order, should be burned), or is a complete moron, they have ABSOLUTELY no business handling a gun. And if they do, that doesn't mean the gun is poorly designed or unsafe. These ain't squirt pistols ya know. Their sole purpose is, for when the trigger is pulled, to fire ... I'd expect no less.

Until I see numbers quoted by a RELIABLE source IN COMPARISON to other manufacturers, any talk about Glock AD's and Glock kabooms is nothing more than internet babble to me ... so you'll have to forgive me if I don't pay it much mind.

Until then, I think anyone who may read this forum DESERVES the right to obtain a very affordable, very reliable, pistol which most people can quickly learn to shoot very fast and very accurately ... without being desuaded by opinions based solely on hearsay or otherwise personal dislike. If someone actually had a kaboom ... with any gun ... I'd be very interested in hearing of the particulars. If a particular gun is prone to AD's, it'd be recalled in a flash ... otherwise, I chalk-up any AD's to spacing-out, ignorance, or idiocy.

It's not my intention to offend anyone here ... certainly no one in particular. I've seen these rumors debunked on many other forums ... frankly, I'm surprised to see them still alive anywhere. I don't mean to blow onto the scene and lay the smack down. But propogating these rumors here just isn't right.

In the end, the only reason I waste time writing this is for those, like I once was, reading this forum just trying to figure stuff out. Just so you understand ... I'm not looking for a fight here.

I can tell if I'm going to be spending any kind of time around here, Mr. Lester and I are going to be getting along fabulously.:D

Doubtful. I learned long ago never to fall into the trap of long, drawn-out and heated forum "debates." I say my piece and that's that.

And here's my piece on the 3.5 lb. triggers. They're in guns for competition and so-called "tactical" applications. (snickering at that marketing niche) Try sending your G17, 19, 22, whatever, to Glock for such a retrofit. They won't do it for obvious safety reasons. 'nuff said

The 3.5lbs trigger connector is STOCK on the Glock 34 and 35. Do you agree with the factory in that case?:D

The 3.5lbs trigger connector is a Glock factory replacement part available for EVERY Glock model. How 'bout now?:D

If you show up at a GSSF match, with your gun, a Glock factory rep will be happy to install it for you, as well as clean your gun thoroughly, for no charge. And now?:D

If you've never tried the 3.5lbs connector, how do YOU know how dangerous it really is? It's only $30. Why not give it a try? It took me months to get over C&L on a 1911 ... so I understand why you're hesitant. I trusted somebody on the 1911 once ... maybe you could trust me now.

See 2nd rule http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp. If someone hasn't learnt the 2 MOST important gun safety rules (any copy which doesn't have 'em, in that order, should be burned), or is a complete moron, they have ABSOLUTELY no business handling a gun. And if they do, that doesn't mean the gun is poorly designed or unsafe. These ain't squirt pistols ya know. Their sole purpose is, for when the trigger is pulled, to fire ... I'd expect no less.

Until I see numbers quoted by a RELIABLE source IN COMPARISON to other manufacturers, any talk about Glock AD's and Glock kabooms is nothing more than internet babble to me ... so you'll have to forgive me if I don't pay it much mind.

Until then, I think anyone who may read this forum DESERVES the right to obtain a very affordable, very reliable, pistol which most people can quickly learn to shoot very fast and very accurately ... without being desuaded by opinions based solely on hearsay or otherwise personal dislike. If someone actually had a kaboom ... with any gun ... I'd be very interested in hearing of the particulars. If a particular gun is prone to AD's, it'd be recalled in a flash ... otherwise, I chalk-up any AD's to spacing-out, ignorance, or idiocy.

It's not my intention to offend anyone here ... certainly no one in particular. I've seen these rumors debunked on many other forums ... frankly, I'm surprised to see them still alive anywhere. I don't mean to blow onto the scene and lay the smack down. But propogating these rumors here just isn't right.

In the end, the only reason I waste time writing this is for those, like I once was, reading this forum just trying to figure stuff out. Just so you understand ... I'm not looking for a fight here.

Fair questions.... here's some more questions:

1. Why did Glock go to the expense of creating an 11 or 12 pound 'New York' trigger? Companies DON'T spend money unless there is a need, or customers won't buy the products without said features. True in any industry.

2. Yes I think that a 3.5 lb trigger is a bit light for the novice. See #1..... on a related note, if we had a revolver in a holster, and the hammer cocked, people might look at us as if we had a screw loose.... why is it OK for the Glock to be basically in the same condition? Think about it.....

3. Blowups - yes, they DO blow up at times. Case head lets go, and splits the plastic frame. Search the net, you'll find pictures.... Cause? Mic some .40 S&W brass out of a Glock. There is an obvious bulge over the feed ramp. .45 ACP 1911s will do this too, when someone gets carried away with the throating job, the ammo pressure level, or both. Steel-framed guns tend to survive. I agree that it's a bit of a user error, but it still happens. This isn't bashing Glock because we point out that the gun DOES have a bit of a design flaw (chamber too large) that has been well documented in the industry.

As an aside.... I have loaded 200gr. cast bullets in a .40 (model 23). I used once-fired brass, and carefully measured the 'bulge' on the fired cases and compared it to factory ammo, keeping my loaded below that figure. One shot at a time, with the magazine removed. No problems, but not everyone is this thorough.

4. Again, there is a clear distinction (well, maybe not clear enough) between what is recommended for the novice, vs. the expert shooter. Benchrest guns have no safety and 2 oz. triggers.... that would be a bit much for the first-time deer hunter, I think anyone would agree.

It is NOT glock bashing to say that the guns DO go off when inexperienced shooters aren't paying attention to what they are doing. Perhaps a manual safety would have prevented this in some cases.... likely not all. It is NOT glock-bashing to say that when a case head lets go on a cartridge loaded to 35,000CUP or so, you've got major problems. These are just facts.....

I've said before that I think Glocks are one of the better choices for carry guns, with some limitations. Don't let your enthusiasm for the product blind you to some well-documented issues...... we all can learn a few things now and then. No gun is perfect, I think that you'll find we are pretty even-handed around here.

Obviously I'm getting nowhere fast.

At first, I just thought I'd help out and clear up some misconceptions. Now, I'm sick of writing and it's obviously not worth it.

Believe what you will.

We're all for clearing up misconceptions. Stick around, you might learn something - we all have.

Fair questions.... here's some more questions:

1. Why did Glock go to the expense of creating an 11 or 12 pound 'New York' trigger? Companies DON'T spend money unless there is a need, or customers won't buy the products without said features. True in any industry.

2. Yes I think that a 3.5 lb trigger is a bit light for the novice. See #1..... on a related note, if we had a revolver in a holster, and the hammer cocked, people might look at us as if we had a screw loose.... why is it OK for the Glock to be basically in the same condition? Think about it.....

3. Blowups - yes, they DO blow up at times. Case head lets go, and splits the plastic frame. Search the net, you'll find pictures.... Cause? Mic some .40 S&W brass out of a Glock. There is an obvious bulge over the feed ramp. .45 ACP 1911s will do this too, when someone gets carried away with the throating job, the ammo pressure level, or both. Steel-framed guns tend to survive. I agree that it's a bit of a user error, but it still happens. This isn't bashing Glock because we point out that the gun DOES have a bit of a design flaw (chamber too large) that has been well documented in the industry.

As an aside.... I have loaded 200gr. cast bullets in a .40 (model 23). I used once-fired brass, and carefully measured the 'bulge' on the fired cases and compared it to factory ammo, keeping my loaded below that figure. One shot at a time, with the magazine removed. No problems, but not everyone is this thorough.

4. Again, there is a clear distinction (well, maybe not clear enough) between what is recommended for the novice, vs. the expert shooter. Benchrest guns have no safety and 2 oz. triggers.... that would be a bit much for the first-time deer hunter, I think anyone would agree.

It is NOT glock bashing to say that the guns DO go off when inexperienced shooters aren't paying attention to what they are doing. Perhaps a manual safety would have prevented this in some cases.... likely not all. It is NOT glock-bashing to say that when a case head lets go on a cartridge loaded to 35,000CUP or so, you've got major problems. These are just facts.....

I've said before that I think Glocks are one of the better choices for carry guns, with some limitations. Don't let your enthusiasm for the product blind you to some well-documented issues...... we all can learn a few things now and then. No gun is perfect, I think that you'll find we are pretty even-handed around here.

In my experience the Glocks are among the easiest pistols to teach new shooters to on. The Springfield XD is very similar..the other pistol I find easy to teach is the Makarov 9x18mm. It is full featured and inexpensive to shoot. Accordingly, the owner is able to shoot enough to become effective with the weapon. Small is also important...but the 9x18mm is somewhat limited in power. I have to agree that one of the better .38/.357 are a good choice but need some trigger work to eliminate creep. With todays choices in ammunition the easily controlled .38 is an effective option.