Hi Guys,

Here in Australia, we can't have a pump action or auto-loading shotgun without a special class of license (that most people can't get) and the law does not recognise peoples right to defend their home. However, pump and level action rifles are legal so what do you think about these for home defence?

* Remington 7600 Carbine - The only carbine version of this you can get is 30-06 with an 18.5" barrel but if you use a light load with, say, a 110gr Varmint bullet would this still be OK or would over-penetration be a problem?
* Marlin/Winchester 44 Magnum Lever Action - Either of these in a carbine (20" barrel). Again, I guess over-penetration would be a problem but I'm not sure

I'm not really after a choice between the two, just your general thoughts on both of them (In particular the suitability of the chosen loads for a quick take down / penetration issues). Thanks :-)


HumanBean

Hmmm. Just had another thought. What about CCI's 44 Remington Magnum Ratshot load? Would that be effective against an intruder at short ranges of 10-20 feet? So many choices...

Wouldn't want to shoot a .30-06 indoors. Other than that, they are good rifles.

If starting from scratch, I'd get a lever-action .357 Mag.

Wouldn't want to shoot a .30-06 indoors. Other than that, they are good rifles.

If starting from scratch, I'd get a lever-action .357 Mag.

Unless you live in something with very thick walls (old lathe and plaster work or a log cabin), nearly everything with decent stopping power penetrates too much....can disreguard that penetration to a point (the point being EXTERIOR walls) if you live alone or the only other person living with you is in the same roo (and behind you).

Guess the good news about manual operated repeaters (levers, pumps, bolts) is that there is no set pressure level for their opeation...no matter how light the load, if it's the right length and shape, it will feed as well as the high-pressure rounds. IF reloading to a level you can live with is out of the question, then it may be best to stay with the lever guns in pistol calibers (and even here, have to pick your ammo carefully).

Don't know if you can obtain any of the self defense ammo for handguns over there in Aussieland, but something on the order of Glazer or such ammo for the .44 Rem Mag should be a dandy load for a levergun with a short barrel. Even the .357 Mag would be good.

Interesting question, I agree that the 30-06 is too much for home defense, the current surge in cowboy action shooting has led to a fairly decent number of level rifles chambered in pistol cartriges.
Even a .38 special would be more than adequate since it is comming out of a rifle, vice the short pistol barrels. One thing you didnt mention was if double barrel shotguns are still legal. A double 12 or 20 guage with short barrels should do the number

Yep, both single and double barrel shotguns are legal. I didn't consider them because:

* They are generally way more expensive than even good quality rifles (I don't usually shoot shotguns and wouldn't be using it for anything else so I can't really justify it)
* None of the break actions seem to come with short enough barrels
* I'm not sure 2 shots is enough. In the excitement I might miss and it would make me nervous just knowing that I only had 2 shots (I know, I'm a wuss)
* Recoil in 12 ga is a bit much for me (Ditto)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a shotgun hater by any means :-) But it probably is not practical, for me anyway...

Being in possession of any wepon for self defence is ilegal over here (not just firearms, any thing which can be used as a wepon) so dont admitt it to anyone. On the shot gun issue I bought a Boito sxs 20" for AU$500 new, it is handy enough but if you keep it loaded you are just relying on the safety which is not good enough for me. The musell blast would be good enough to make someone slow down. Fired from the hip recoil is easy to take. I'd go for a lever in a pistol cal and keep the chamber empty.

Being in possession of any wepon for self defence is ilegal over here (not just firearms, any thing which can be used as a wepon) so dont admitt it to anyone. On the shot gun issue I bought a Boito sxs 20" for AU$500 new, it is handy enough but if you keep it loaded you are just relying on the safety which is not good enough for me. The musell blast would be good enough to make someone slow down. Fired from the hip recoil is easy to take. I'd go for a lever in a pistol cal and keep the chamber empty.

Yeah, good idea: keeping the chamber empty that is. I don't trust safety's. Luckily in South Australia they just brought in a law where if you are in your home you can use any reasonable force (Including lethal) to defend yourself. About 12 months ago some guy killed 2 people who invaded his home with a Samurai sword and didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. A third man survived with massive injuries and was not able to sue (Another benefit of the new law). I'm not sure if this law extends to firearms though... They may be less tolerant if an intruder is found with a hole from a 44 magnum through his chest. That Boito sounds interesting, I'll have to look into it...

Yeah, good idea: keeping the chamber empty that is. I don't trust safety's. Luckily in South Australia they just brought in a law where if you are in your home you can use any reasonable force (Including lethal) to defend yourself. About 12 months ago some guy killed 2 people who invaded his home with a Samurai sword and didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist. A third man survived with massive injuries and was not able to sue (Another benefit of the new law). I'm not sure if this law extends to firearms though... They may be less tolerant if an intruder is found with a hole from a 44 magnum through his chest. That Boito sounds interesting, I'll have to look into it...
I think Rossi used to make a "gallery gun" pump action in 357.The other thought I have is a pump or lever gun in .22 mag.Far less "over penetration" than some of your other options and plenty lethal enough at the indicated ranges.
I would defy most people to want to keep intruding after copping one or two 22mags in the guts.You can get shotshells for them also which although not powerful, at 5-7 meters would be a whole world of pain(especially 5 or 6 of them!)
Just a thought.

I'd personally go with a Marlin .357 levergun and never look back. It has significantly lower recoil and muzzle blast (important consideration shooting indoors) than a .30-06 or 12 gauge, yet providing plenty of power and enough capacity to deal with anything short of the psycho gangs from a Mad Max movie.

Another possibility is the pump-action .223 from South Africa I saw ads for a few years ago. Unfortunately I don't recall the manufacturer but it may be something to pursue.

I'd personally go with a Marlin .357 levergun and never look back. It has significantly lower recoil and muzzle blast (important consideration shooting indoors) than a .30-06 or 12 gauge, yet providing plenty of power and enough capacity to deal with anything short of the psycho gangs from a Mad Max movie.

Another possibility is the pump-action .223 from South Africa I saw ads for a few years ago. Unfortunately I don't recall the manufacturer but it may be something to pursue.
There is a Romanian Cugir pum-action in .223 and 7.62x39, which may also be suitable and it is available in Australia.
Cheers

Anyone remember what happened to the Timberwolf .357 Mag pump?

Hi Guys,

Here in Australia, we can't have a pump action or auto-loading shotgun without a special class of license (that most people can't get) and the law does not recognise peoples right to defend their home. However, pump and level action rifles are legal so what do you think about these for home defence?

* Remington 7600 Carbine - The only carbine version of this you can get is 30-06 with an 18.5" barrel but if you use a light load with, say, a 110gr Varmint bullet would this still be OK or would over-penetration be a problem?
* Marlin/Winchester 44 Magnum Lever Action - Either of these in a carbine (20" barrel). Again, I guess over-penetration would be a problem but I'm not sure

I'm not really after a choice between the two, just your general thoughts on both of them (In particular the suitability of the chosen loads for a quick take down / penetration issues). Thanks :-)


HumanBean

I have used the Ruger carbine in a 44mag semi auto and the 44 mag and 444 magnum in lever rifles. I honestly believe what your looking for is the 44 magnum in a lever gun. It will do all you need to get done and there are bullets available that will fragment on walls, as opposed to sailing through 3 or 4 walls before the bullet stops.

The rifle is light and fast to bring to the shoulder quick! It makes one heck of a big hole in modeling clay and penetration is adiquate for what your looking for in a rifle. I used the Sierra 240 grain Hollow Cavity bullets and they work will well on deer and any intruders you might have come calling.

Great thought, those little Timberwolf Carbines came in both blued and stainless, 16" barrels in .357. Great guns, had a couple of them for a time when we had the gunstores a decade ago or so. Very reliable, great safety, very accurate. Also very finicky about COL in loaded ammo, with very little lattitude for alteration in that department if my memory serves me right. They were Israeli made and well done. Don't know if they ever made it to the down under, but are worthy of consideration if a pump is your pleasure.

God Bless,

Back in the 1970's Winchester loaded .308 in 110 grain and I used it for several coyotes and a couple 'lopes. My impression is that it was quite fast in the mushrooming dept. CORBON makes a home defense load for high power rifle cartridges. Instead of a bullet CORBON loads a capsul with tiny BB's. I'm told the wound this makes is quite ghastly.
TR

this is a old thread , new to this , not sure how it all works . Heres my 2 cents worth about self defence guns for australian conditions . I have a baikial side by side hamer coach gun I keep in the pantry permitly loaded with number nine bird shot for snakes and pest birds and of cause any posible intruders . Recon at point blank range bird shot will do the job without the danger of over penatration .

the law states that when not in use all guns are to be locked away . Seeing as i live in a rural area I feel i would be able to argue that the loaded shotgun in the pantry is actually being used , cause it needs to be available at short notice .

As for rifles for home defence i also own a rossi 357 magnum leaver action and am really suprised how well it kills roos . evan with plus p 38 specail loads , it punches way avove its weight and sounds about as loud as a 22 magnum and is ver acurate .

The chances of you being caught are very low but I wouldn't like your chances of trying to argue your way out of having an unsecured loaded firearm in Australia in the present political climate.

I here what you say but on the other hand were do they draw the line , a gun is not just being used when it is being fired , and if push came to shove that is something for the courts to decide but it would be a good sound legal argument . If u ever had to use that argument about haveing a loaded gun lieing about the place i think the courts might suprise you . I'm not a lawyer but i have had a bit of experiance in courts . Things are bad enough here in oz regarding gun laws without 1/2 the gun owners you talk to being so pesimistic and makeing things worse.