I was thinking this morning that with the use of current powders and bullets and metalurgy we now have 5 and 6 shot 45 caliber revolvers that equal or exceed the power level of the old heavy caliber black powder rifles of the last part of the 1800's.  I wonder how long it would have taken to "tame" the frontier if the cowboys and buffalo hunters had possesed some of these hand cannons?
Just a thought.

JUST THINK, IF BILLY THE KID HAD A 454. OR WHILE GALLOPING ON THERE HORSES AND TOUCHING OFF FULL POWER 475 LOADS WITH ONE HAND. THERE HORSES WOULD HAVE HATED THE MUZZLE BLAST. INTERESTING THOUGHT.        JIM.

I can imagine Billy the Kid doing his thing on horse back, with a 454and.........Being knocked out of the saddle and the horse dropping to the ground with the noisy thing going off in his ear.
The cavelry, with the short light carbines used a reduced load in the 45-70 because the troopers were getting beat up and some getting knocked out of the saddle, from firing full charge loads. I think there is a Mel Brooks movie here.
Jim

It would likely have taken just as long, maybe a smidge longer. As Jim and 'pete said, a hand cannon on horseback is a thrown rider in the making.  As for the buffalo runners, their BP Sharps, Remingtons, et al, were highly specialized weapons for that job. Extra power really wasn't needed. Accuracy at "long range" was much more important. In those days that meant 200-300 yards. Getting closer to a massive herd of bison could lead to a good stomping of the shooter if they decided to head his way once the shooting started. So even though a modern hand cannon has equal power to the BP buffalo guns, most hunters would need to get too close for comfort for practical accuracy.

Contrary to popularized myth, the "Big 50" Sharps actually referred to rifles chambered in 50-70 Government or 50-90 Sharps, not the cigar-like 50-140-700. Most bison were slain with the 45 and 50 Government in surplus Trapdoor Springfields or the 40-90, 44-90, and 45-90 in commercially-produced rifles.

Billy the Kid with an AR 15 and Custer with some Armored vehicles at the Little Big Horn.

Now that would have made life interesting.

Reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit with John Belushi as Napolean. They were acting out a what if scenario with Napolean having a B-52 at Waterloo.

:biggrin:


Regards

:cool:

Reminds me of a time when I was doing the gunshow circuit.

A fellow with a table across from my layout explained how his Uberti made SAA was used by John Wayne in the movie Stagecoach....that was the story he told all passers-by to sell this imitation ivory handled spaghetti Colt clone.

When he offered the same line to me later in the day, I offered him Sitting Bull's favoite M1A!

Blessings!

Marshall

Marshall, I still have that M1A too. I cherish it for it history

Well since we're braggin' and all, let's talk about the Colt 1911 I have. The one with which Aaron Burr shot Alexander Hamilton.

:wink:

I think one of the really good things about the new improved guns/powders etc. is the fact that you can have the power of a .44-40 rifle (the gun that won the west) in relativly moderate loads in a handy belt packin' short arm. As far as unique arms, don't make me tell you about my 12 ga single shot NEF shotgun that Adam used to harvest dinner in the garden of eden.
Manny

"The cows may go, and the cows may come...But the Bull goes on Forever!"
Best Regards To All, James

I've got you all beat.  I own Sam Colts personal 1873 SAA. It cost me a fortune, but it's worth it! Oddly enough, it's not chambered in 45 Colt, but in 357 magnum. It has his name engraved on it and everything!-------------------------------------------Bob

Imagine what would have happened in tombstone if Wyatt Earp was at the other end of town with a .454 loaded to the hilt with some 260 grain bullets.  Heck you could shoot clean through a horse and still get two guys behind it.   Worse comes to worse he would have scared them to death with the BIG NOISE coming out of the end.

Reading this made me stop and think how close todays guns are to those of 100+ years ago.

Sure we have made some advances in metallurgy and plastics (yuk) and we have gained some in engineering.

But look at our single action revolvers - not much different than the old colts. Our modern leverguns are based on the designs of 1890's.

Some of our best bolts are built on old mauser designs.

The 1911 auto is still going strong.

Most industries have made huge leaps since 1900. We got the glock and the AR-15 <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->

Optics have improved, powders, reloading components and equipment are better but firearms are not much changed.

Where would we be today without John Browning and a few of his peers?

Just food for thought.

&quot;Most industries have made huge leaps since 1900. We got the Glock and the AR-15.&quot;

Now if that isn't a man after my own heart, I don't know what is!

I'll even go one better. Get past all the manufacturer hoopla and the firearms we have today aren't as good as the ones of 1900. Think about it. If it isn't lawyer-induced triggers and safeties, then it's cheapo materials like plastic and aluminum. Give me blued steel and walnut every time.

Yes I agree those loud booming guns would surely turn a horse ride into a rodeo. &nbsp;However; with the quite reduced loads like a 800 fps 475 those are really quite. &nbsp;Then drop in a 420 at 1400 fps and watch someone try to hide behind a 18&quot; water trough. &nbsp;Just a thought.....

God Bless
Will

And If the Indians had compound bows?

This is a HOOT!!!
I started this thread 10 months ago and forgot about it. &nbsp;I figured it would be deep in the archives by now. &nbsp;
But I got some good laughs at the direction it took. &nbsp;

I got all of you beat. &nbsp;I went on safari and found Moses' flame thrower he used to melt the golden calf with. &nbsp; <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

My granpa always told me that the holes in the front of some of the bullets were for salt for the reallllly long shots.

I think if the Native Americans had all the big revolvers and automatic weapons the cowboys and buffalo hunters would not have been so called tamers of the West and we would still have open land for hunting and great herds of buffalo roaming free. (Could you imagine I can) <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->


Apache Nation

Redhawk1,
Your right of course. &nbsp;The American Indian got a vicious calculated course of genocidal treatment from the whites that were expanding and taking over this continent. &nbsp; But considering the number of whites and Indians, I doubt that arms would have changed the eventual outcome. &nbsp;
For the Indians to have repelled the whites, they would have had to terminate Columbus and all that showed up in that period of time.
Once here and established, the whites were unstopable.
From my perception of history, the Indians would ignore the whites untill they encroached to much on Indian land, then defend themselfs. &nbsp;So the Indians were never really in a position to stop the destruction of their way of life. &nbsp;
A shame. &nbsp;Being a white male of European decent I have found myself ashamed of the despicable actions of those that came before me. &nbsp;Altho their actions were not surprising or out of caracter.

Redhawk1, I see you stated at the bottom, "Apache Nation". &nbsp;Are you in Arizona?
&nbsp;My wife is part Miami from the Indiana area.

If we're going to get serious here, I would suggest a book(epic poem) by John D. Neihardt. The book's title is A Cycle of the West. &nbsp;It deals with the indians and whites from Lewis and Clark to Wounded Knee.
Excellent book, many of the viewpoints are from the "other side".
He, the author was adopted by an indian tribe in northwest kansas in the early 1900s.
He has several other books, the best known probably is "Black Elk Speaks".

J Miller, I currently live in Delaware, but my parents are in Arizona. Don't get me wrong, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I hold no bad feeling toward anyone. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> It was just a fact of life back then. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->