A couple years ago I received a New England Arms single shot .22 Hornet with the the typcal Simmons 3-9X40 scope for Christmas. I have shot a little over a box of 50 rounds through it and I cant get it to group.

We dont get out to the range much so I cant do much testing. I began by sighting it for 50 yds as the intial zero. It was hitting but not to what I what I would like. Soon I moved it too 100 yds it grouped OK there also. Went back to the range again later after giving it a good cleaning, as I had read that after 20 shots or so the .22 Hornets accuracy drops off. Now it wont even group, not even at 50 yds.

So a year or so passes and it just sits in my gun cabient and we befreind a great hunter and gun lover. Jim brough us up to his deer lease and I hoped he could help me get the Hornet shooting proper. Even after using both Remington and Winchester hollow point 45 grain shells, neither me or him could make the rifle consistently shoot well. I think some of the problems might be as folllows:

1) The trigger pull is terrible, probably close to 7-8 lbs on a hunch

2) I think I might be getting metal fouling in the bore (cant this just be cleaned with a brush and solvents? is there a diffrence in the kinds of fouling)

3) Maybe the scope but I dont think that could be it, I will certaintly check

4) Bad loads? Some people say the .22 Hornet is kinda finkicky about ammo

5) Maybe just the lemon of the lot. (I have seen other peoples New England Arms single shots .17 HMR that do great groups!)

I would really appreciate some help on this. I would really like to put this rifle into full use. It kinda boils my blood that you cant get a rifle that will not work without all kinds of modifications without giving up an arm and a leg.

Feel free to ask me any questions that might help with solving this problem!

What size groups are you getting? Even the worst trigger will alow you to shoot 2"-3" at 100 yards well supported, so I dont think that will be your total problem. I am unfamilar with your rifle and what it should do. A small amount of damage to the muzzel will cause large groups.
Fouling will be metal and powder. Powder fouling is easely removed with solvent, metal fouling can be removed with solvent made to remove copper normaly with some short soaking.

Copper solvent. Sweet's, Barnes CR 10, Shooter's Choice, Hoppe's Benchrest, etc. Use as directed....

Wouldn't hurt to change the scope out as well. And fix the trigger as you know needs to be done.

I have a NEF in 22 Hornet and it shot horrible the first hundred rounds or so. It now has over 600rds through it and it will shoot 100yd groups in the 1/2 to 3/4 inch range with my handloads, and arounf 1 to 1-1/4 inch with factory stuff. I guess the barrel wasn't all that great from the factory, but it smoothed out with use. If you handload you might try hot lapping the barreel otherwise, just shoot it a lot. a lot of guys will float the forearm by spacing it off the barrel with a washer or Oring where the forearm bolt goes. They say it helps, but I havn't had to do this to my gun and it shoots fine, so I guess it depends on which gun you have. Let us know if you get things straightned out with the gun, they can be great little shooters.

George

Stanfield thanks for the advice and help. I'd really appreciate if you could give me all the data on your handloads. Powder, bullet, primer, case brand everything if you dont mind. Also what factory ammo did you use. I used Remington HP 45 gr, and Winchester 45 gr soft points and they both shot crappy. I have just over a box of 50 through it so like you said it could be the breaking in. I have just two more questions though:

1) What is hot lapping the barrel
2) How often do you clean your rifle. I mean how many shots can you go through before accuracy starts to go down. Is there any special solvent for this.

To the 2 comments above stanfields, Thank you I appreciate your advice. I will soon buy some good metal fouling solvent. I might try another scope on it also

Humble - Believe the problem is your ammo, not the rifle.

Factory ammo has to be loaded for all possible chambers and bores out there. The older Hornets had .223" bores. Modern Hornets have the same as other .22 centerfires - .224" bores. The factory ammo is undersize and under loaded.

I have a Springfield M6 Scout that wouldn't shoot a bunch of factory ammo for applebutter. When fed my handloads for the Ruger 77/22 Hornet and a T/C Contender Hornet, the groups tightened up to almost MOA.

If you can find some handloaded Hornet rounds that will chamber in your NEF, give them a try and see it that doesn't do the trick. Be aware there are bullets still listed by the bullet mfg'rs that say ".22 Hornet". These are the .223 dia bullets and are to be avoided like the plague unless you have the older Hornet bore.

Thanks I also believe its the ammo. I am trying to get handload data from stansfield .

One question I always reffered to groups in inches I never understood what MOA (minute of Angle) is, I mean how many inches is 1 MOA. Whats the diffrence between the measurements?

Thanks I also believe its the ammo. I am trying to get handload data from stansfield .

One question I always reffered to groups in inches I never understood what MOA (minute of Angle) is, I mean how many inches is 1 MOA. Whats the diffrence between the measurements?


One MOA is approx 1 inch at 100 yds, 2 inches at 200 yards, one-half inch at 50 yards, etc.

So, for example, if you were getting 2 inch groups at 50 yards, that would be 4 moa. If you got one-quarter inch groups at 50 yards, that would be one-half moa.

Thanks I also believe its the ammo. I am trying to get handload data from stansfield .

One question I always reffered to groups in inches I never understood what MOA (minute of Angle) is, I mean how many inches is 1 MOA. Whats the diffrence between the measurements?

This was taken from cabela's buyer's guide for scopes.

"Minute of Angle: Minute of Angle (MOA) is a term to designate variances on a target at 100 yards distant. Most commonly, it is used to describe the adjustment on a scope. If a scope's adjustments are listed at 1/4" MOA, then for every click of the adjustment knob, the bullet's point of impact will move 1/4" at 100 yards."

that is a generic definition, a more precise definition, probably more than most people care, is at

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/moa.html

-9r

1 minute of angle is 1/60 of 1 degree, 360 degrees to a circle. If you work that out one minute at 100 yards is 1.047197551", not far off 1".

Most of the statements that the 22 Hornet is problematic is due to the ammo, as others have said. My NEF Hornet is one of the most accurate ones I have ever owned. Mine is the lightweight 20" barrel gun. They all have terrible triggers from the factory.
Here's a load that they use in South Florida for crop damage control and one that I use:
WW brass
WW SR regular primer
13 grs. Hodgdon Lil'Gun for 2775+/-fps
46 gr. (.224") WW Hollowpoint
Seat bullet just off the rifling.
............James

Been a big hornet fan for a lot of years. Would check teh scope and the mount first...that's a given for any rifle taht's giving me trouble.

If the object is to test the loads and the rifles ranther than the shooter, then sand bag that rifle into the bench...if it looks like a WWII Japanese pill-box with sandbags all over the place, that's OK...testing the ammo and rfile, not your skill or the ability to beat the moster trigger pull.

Loading:
1. Sort out the too large and too small cases by VOLUME...stay within headstamps, but find the ones that hold a tiny bit more or a tiny bit less and put them aside.

(Sorting by volume deosn't have to be a pain. Just measure out a case filling load of any ball powder...you aren't going to shoot it, just use it for comparison. Using that same weighted charge,put it in each case and note where it comes to on the case neck....can visually detect pretty small variations this way.)

2. Do not be wed to one primer type, no matter how good it's repuation...experiment with primer brands.

3. In a case this size, a few 1/10th variations ia a larger percentage than with bigger cases...be ruthless at the powder scale.

4. It's a single shot...you will have room to seat the bullets farther out and get them a bit closer to rifling's origin. Not constricted by dinky too-short magazines, can enjoy the full length the chamber will allow.

Sorry I didn't get back soon, I had computer problems. I did PM you with the load data I use, as I don't normally post it, as it can vary form one gun to the next and I don't want to get someone in trouble using it in an older gun, but as you have the same gun as I do, it is OK. My loads are blow max anyway. The one thing I forgot to mention was the brand of cases, I have been using Wincheser, but I have changed over to Remington as I have been getting better results from Remington. I would also be inclined to think it is the ammo, but my gun shot badly at first with handloads or factory, although now it shoots well under 1 MOA with handloads and is still about 2 MOA with factory, but I've only ever bought one box of factory stuff and it was Remington. Ribbonstone has a good point to try different primers as well. as small a case as this is, little differences are more important than with a huge case, so sometimes you can get a varience from just the slightest thing.

Oh I forgot to answer another of your question, I have used about every bore cleaner under the sun, and they have all worked good for me, just as long as you don't wait till it is too bad before you clean.

stanfield:

Bought 10,000 primers from a commercial reloader...older Alcan primers. Never heard any real good reports about them, but at the price he made me, wasn't going to turn them down. Those turned out to be the best choice for this particular .22 Hornet. Bruned up the last of them a couple of years ago and had to re-work the loading I'd been using for a long-long time.

Turned out the same powder charge (and it's 4227...not too popular as it gives up some speed to the newer powders) and Rem. 6 1/2's did the trick...noted the lot number on the primer carton and whent back to buy all of that lot number the dealer had. As much as we may not like it, today's Remington 6 1/2's may not match next year's 6 1/2's, so once you find a componet that works, but as many of that componet (matching the lot numbers) as you can.
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Try didffernt bag posions with that two-piece stock. Have found many 2-piece stocks don't care for the front bag at the end of the fore end...some shoot a LOT better with the bag up tight against the back of the fore end near the action.

The other thing to check is any possible looseness in teh butt stock. Any motion there and you'll get some amazingly bad groups that will fustrate the devil out of you until the stock loosens enough for you to detect it....is one place I'd remove and glass bed without even bothering to test fire.

Ribbonstone, I have found the same thing with component changes and yes, it stinks, it's just one of those things we have to deal with. I noticed you use 4227, this is what I use myself (IMR 4227 anyway) I have also used some H110, but my accuracy was a little better with the IMR4227.

I am currently using CCI Benchrest as well as Federal small pistol and have had great results with both, but like your deal, mine are some older federals I got for a song, and I konw I'll have to work up a new load when these are gone.

George

Just a question relating to the "measure by volume" thing brought up earlier.I do mine by wieght and have bagged them accordingly.This works for me. I"m looking for a difference checking for weight and checking for volume.
I neck size my hornet brass so all brasses outside dimensions are the same ( the chamber).If the batch of cases I'm looking at all weigh the same then their internal volume must be the same as the only other variable left is the density of the brass(which wouldn't change that much in the same production run of brass from the same manufacturer).
I'm just curious where the differing volume can come into it??

You are correct, weighing the cases will get you real close.

You are correct, weighing the cases will get you real close.

Mostly I use volume becasue there can be a drastic difference...enough that loads should be adjusted. Weight works as well, just that volume is easier for me to compare (for wahtever reason, my mind works better in "volume mode" than weight).

Guess the thickest brass would be the military issue brass from the early 1960's (issued with the survival rifles). Bought a bunch of WCC 62 .22horent ammo that came up for sale...was collectors ammo back then, and was selling at gun shows for less than the standard factory loads. I still reload a batch of them, but have to reduce loads by 8-10% to get the same velocity as I get with the larger volume Rem/Win cases.

Inspect your brass carefully. Bought 500 Remington cases that got sent back immediatly...didn't need to weight check or volume check, 15% of the stuff was visually not fully formed...visually thinner rims in some, un even riums in others...sent it back and the outfitter made good on it (with another 500 rounds of Remington brass that had no problems at all).

Thank you very much for all the help. I thought recently of selling it becuase of the hassle with it. I am waiting to get from a hunting buddy who is giving it a trigger tune so next time I will shoot it I will update on its performance etc... Thanks again

Derek, Humble~~

Hey Stan I never recieved you PM. If you dont mind could you send the load date to my e-mail at

dean_8819@yahoo.com

Thanks alot

Information sent via E-mail. Let me know when you get if if you try any of the loads.

George

Humble,

I have a Browning A-Bolt that loves;
9.6grs. H110 powder
Remington brass
Federal small rifle primer
Sierra or Hornady 45gr. Hornet bullets.

Don't be to quick to get rid of the rifle!!
I have a friend who is always buying new rifles, shoots them once or twice, and then sells them to me for at least $200 less than what he paid. Usually these rifles need to have a sharp bore smoothed out (lapping) or a hand load tailored to suit their needs. You don't get too many bad rifles with today's manufacturing.(Although you may get a fluke once in a while.)

Lapping can be done by either firing a bunch of rounds through the rifle (cleaning between every 5 rounds or so), or you can use a product such as Tubb's . This is a gritty paste that you can roll your bullets in before handloading, that sort of acts like sandpaper. It comes in different grits so you can finish the bore in steps. They also sell pre-pasted loaded rounds (a little more expensive) in case you don't reload.

As far as MOA goes there are more technical explanations, but as posted by someone else here the most common use of term by most shooters is: 1" groups @ 100yds is MOA
2" groups @ 200yds is MOA
1/2" " " 50 yds is MOA
2" " " 100yds is 2MOA
etc etc etc....

Good luck with that Hornet; it's a fine cartridge.
johnny

The brass is thinner in Hornet case than other center fire cases. Seperating cases by weight and trimming to the same length after necking sizeing improved the group size from my hornet Rem. 6 1/2 primers and Lil Gun Powder also worked for me.

I own a Martini hornet >It has great sentimental value as it wasa long departed uncle of mine that did the converstions of the Martinis at sportco So I knew for a fact that it was .A .223 barrel not a .224 (or was it)The first groups I shoot were terribble to say the least! then I sluged the barrel .Oh yes the Old girl had started her life as a .223 But she was a tad worn.So I took a risk and went to .224 project's.Groups wnt from 1 1/4 " to 7/8" at 100metres.Unless youse was a very early hornet .224 dia is the way to go the dia is printed on the box that your bullets come in .I suggest you start there. good luck & good shooting

Take a look at "accurizing the factory rifle" it covers the Handi-Rifle. N.E.F. will adjust your trigger for you.Floating the barrel on a rubber O-ring can help. Be carefull to not rest the forarm on anything hard. You might try shooting it with out the forarm on it. N.E.F. has excellent customer service, try calling them. Greybeardoutdoors has a forum dedicated to these rifles, and lots of help is there.

Mine likes a 40 grain Hornady V Max over 13 grains of LilGun and a CCI small (pistol) primer. I uniform the neck tension of the laods with a Lee factory crimp die. I had the same rifle as yours and it shot reasonably well given the horrid trigger and hard hammer fall. Traded mine for an Encore so I could build other toys and have not been disappointed.

The trigger can be fixed if you want to spend the money..why not just trade it on a Cz mini mauser? The shoot great out of th ebox....have a wonderful set trigger and are handsome to boot...

Try 13.5 grains Lil'gun behind a 45 grain bullet. That load will practically fill the case to the top, but pressure is low. I haven't had any experience with the New England handi rifle in a hornet, but my .223 does alright.

The last post on this thread was over a year ago. Lots of water under the bridge since then.

I also noted that the original poster hasn't logged in for over two years. Check his profile.

Bye
Jack