Just got my Marlin back and ready to get started with BL-C(2) and the BTB 160-grain FP. Anybody working with this combination?

I've already tried LoadSwap.com... nothing listed there. I've also tried using the search on this forum (not too fond of that feature) and come up with zip.

Michael

Hello Michael, William Iorg has a lot of info on this. I know he prefers the 150gr. bullets. I believe he says to start at max for a regular 30-30 and work from there. I use BL-C(2) at 35gr. for a max load. This gives my 170 jacketed at well over 2250fps. My guess is that with your lighter bullet, you may run into the limitations of the tumble lube, although I have not seen that yet myself, I anticipate having problems over about 2200fps in my new Savage 243, and my higher velocity cast loads in my other cast guns. How does the gun look? Is it up to your high specs? I also am curious as to whether your 444 is a superior pig gun as compared to that deadly 30-30. You always spoke quite highly of it.

Ranch Dog

I am not a big fan of Winchester 748 or Hodgdon BLc2 in the .30-30 Improved. Both powders will equal our target velocities without a problem on hot or cold days. I have not had good consistency with either powder. That is to say I have not been able to get consistently low extreme spreads with either powder, using any bullet weight. I'll be watching your results to see how you like it.
I have not shot much BLc2 with cast bullets. In fact I have not shot many full power cast bullets loads in the .30-30 Improved. I have shot a lot of Greg Muchials low velocity cast bullet data in the .30-30 Improved and I have been very impressed with my results.
I have shot both W-748 and H-BLc2 quite a bit with 150 and 170 grain jacketed bullets. A maximum load of BLc2 in my Marlin 336 is 38.0 grains using a 170-grain Speer. This load gives me 2,281 fps and good accuracy. Interestingly the Winchester M-94AE prefers one grain more powder. A maximum load in our Winchester M-94AE is 39.0 grains of BLc2. Using a Speer 170 grain JFN this load gives 2363 fps.

Working up loads with BLc2 and the 170-grain Speer bullet looked like this. 36.0gr. - 2,129fps, 37.0 gr. - 2,275fps, 38.0 gr. - 2,281fps, - The Marlin reached our stop point and the Winchester M-94AE was only able to increase the charge one grain. These loads have been tested in hot weather so I am pretty confident in them.
Please not the velocity increased 146 fps from 36 to 37 grains of powder. The increase from 37 to 38 grains of powder gave an increase of 6 fps. The pressure indications (which are far from scientific) continued to increase. We have gone beyond this level to look but the velocity increases very little while the pressure indications rise rapidly. Extruded (stick) powders were much more predictable in our tests.

EDIT- I edited this so the last paragraph reads Speer bullets instead of Sierra. I have shot both bullets with good results but in this case it was with speer.

Hey Doc...

That's pretty much what I planned on doing. Just starting with the published data for the 30-30. I thought about buying the Ackley books but that's a lot of money for the two books and my only interest in the one cartridge. I'm not really interested in all theory in text either.

The bullet is a BTB and not tumbled lubed. I do have the Lee C309-160-R mold and have molded some bullets but I'm not impressed with the design or diameter. I'm going to eventually submit a design to Lee based on this grain weight and the Micro-Bands but have other fish waiting to fry yet.

No doubt about the 30-30 being a hog killer with my choice of the Hornady 170-grain FP. I will never kill as many hogs with the 444 as I have the 30-30 because I doubt that I will be hunting another 40 years to get it accomplished. I am interested in how well a cast bullet performs the task.

I will keep you posted on my loading. I've got some pics at Got My 30-30 IMP Today! (http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=13730), but they don't really do the gun justice as my picture taking sucks.

Michael

Slim...

I see we were typing about the same time. Thanks for all the info as it will be quite helpful. I might get to start working on this caliber today if I get a little bit lucky. I'm getting the fireformed brass cleaned up this morning, ready to start the reloading.

Michael

So how is BLc2 treating you?

Second call, Ranch dog, how is the BL-c(2) treating you?? I was going back thru some of my notes and found I had attained an avg of 2550 fps with 20 inch barrel marlin 30-30Imp. using bulk 150gr rem. and a healthy dose of BL_C(2). I'm real curious about yours and any other results.
Doug

To be honest... since I shot the two hogs with the rifle on the last day of August, I haven't shot the rifle or done any loading for it. I had a bunch of work to do with the 444T I purchased to prep it so I could hunt with cast bullets and that is where my attention has been. A lot happened in my life at the end of the summer and I just didn't have the time to focus on this project.

My shooting is still at as low an ebb as it ever has been. I had shoulder surgery immediately after I moved out to the rancho last week. Eventhough I'm supposed to be recooping, I spent all day on a tractor tilling foodplots as a bulldozer made them. I've got a bit of tractor work to do to prep my new place but the good news is that the same bulldozer is cutting a 300-yard shooting range about 50' from my reloading room door! Once all this other work is done, I will be able to start pounding out rounds of ammo

Fuudog, I was just thinking of you! I have been reading some old threads from the Marlin board. I am a .356 Win. fan and I have been comparing .35 Remington data with my .356 results. We shooters lost a lot of interesting data when the Marlin Board went down.

As I said earlier I am not a fan of either Winchester 748 or Hodgdon BLc2 in the .30-30 Improved. Loading BLc2 with the Remington 150-grain bullets we were able to attain our velocity goal of 2500 fps. This while remaining within our personal "pressure indication" limits. Remember our goal was interchangeable ammunition between multiple rifles. It is a little easier to load for one rifle. With the 150-grain bullets we ran a test raising the powder charge one-grain at a time from 35.0 to 40.0 grains. The velocity increase was predictable and uniform from 35.0 to 38.0 grains in both the Marlin 336 and the Winchester M-94AE. Above 38.0 grains we began to see erratic or uneven velocity increases. As I said above the Marlin reached it's pressure ring expansion limit with 38.0 grains of powder and the Winchester AE reached it's limit with 39.0 grains Shooting several groups on different days, cool, warm and hot, with each rifle gave us widely varying velocities. In both of our rifles the jump from 39.0 to 40.0 grains of powder resulted in a large velocity increase and a large jump in the pressure ring measurements. The extreme spreads also increased dramatically. We did increase our powder charges but found our velocity increases dropped significantly and the pressure ring measurements increased in an alarming manner. 40.0 grains of Hodgdon BLc2 is our maximum load in the Winchester with the 150-grain bullets and the truth is we would rather not work at these leveals with BLc2. 38.0 grains of BLc2 is our practical stop point with the 150 grain bullets.

Our tests with Winchester 748 and the 150-grain Remington bullet were almost exactly the same. The only difference is our average velocities were just a few fps higher with Winchester 748.

Using BLC2 with 170-grain bullets, we came up short on velocity compared to Winchester 748. Our testing indicated both powders preferred to work with the heavier, 170-grain bullets. Our velocities and extreme spreads were more uniform and predictable with the heavier bullets. Winchester 748 gave us about 50 fps more velocity for the same "pressure indications" in both rifles. BLc2 made me a little uncomfortable at the upper load levals. In our rifles, I consider 38.0 grains to be a maximum charge for both powders with the 170-grain bullet and I feel more comfortable using 37.0 grains as a maximum. Winchester 748 gave significantly more uniform results at the 37.0 and 38.0-grain charge levels. Both powders were capable of giving us a pressure surprise on hot days. We felt more uncomfortable using Hodgdon BLc2 and Winchester 748 than with any other powder in the .30-30 Improved. We felt that our results were less predictable and varied considerably depending on the outside air temperature, with these two powders.

I think RanchDog has a pressure Trace set-up. We have been thinking about this but have not taken the plunge. RanchDog, if you get the chance to look at the .30-30AI with your pressure gear I would like to hear about the difference in peak pressure between powders such as Winchester 748 or Hodgdon BLc2 as compared to loads giving equal velocity using Hodgdon Varget or Alliant Reloader 15. I do not need to know specifics details if that will help your comfort factor. I believe we can exceed the velocities achieved with 150 and 170-grain bullets in the .30-30AI with BLc2 and 748 by switching to Varget and RL 15. I also believe we can do this with more uniform "pressure indications." I stopped looking at this when I realized I nearly equaled .307 Winchester velocities in a .30-30AI with the same length barrel. The pressure had to be very high, yet the rifles and cartridge cases did not show any signs of distress. I would just like to have an idea of what the pressure curve looks like with BLc2 or 748 when using a maximum load on a hot day. I will predict the difference between the pressure curves with loads of 38.0, 39.0 and 40.0 grains of BLc2 on a hot day will be enlightening! The .30-30AI is an interesting cartridge.

Slim
When you get time look at the 2004 Hogdon loads for the 30-30 with regard to BL-C(2) and Varget. For a 30-30AI your BL-C(2) loads seems fairly mild, when you consider the extra case capacity of the AI.

Ranch Dog,
Thanks for the reply. Really no hurry, just get alot of meat and thought out of your posts.

Slim,
Yeah we lost alot from the Marlin sight. The 35 rem is probably the biggest sleeper out there. Just wish I had more time to work it. Also wish I had more time to hunt with it.

fuudog,
Good point and another area for good discussion! I have Hodgdons book but cannot load the .30-30 to thier top levels - 37.0 grains of BLc2 for the 150-grain bullet and 36.0 for the 170 grain bullet. I measure my new .30-30 brass at .4175" to .4180" and established my personal stop point at .420" to .4205". These stop points are considerably higher than Ken Waters has suggested in his .30-30 articles.This leaves me stopping about 1.0 grain short of Hodgdons top loads. I have loaded the standard .30-30 to Hodgdons maximum and still came up a bit over 100 fps short of their velocities. The extra four inches of barrel probably a factor here.

Since I started posting on the .30-30 Improved I have recieved numerous private e-mails on the subject. Yours is the first that has called me "conservative" - Thank You!
This is actualy why I am hoping to gather up a number of .30-30AI shooters on this forum so we can accuratly discuss our results. I am very interested in hearing of other shooters results with loads similar to mine. I really hope to get someone to try my load data for Hodgdon 335 and Hodgdon 4895SC. We believe these two powders are interchangeable grain for grain in the 20" .30-30AI. We believe that no other powder delivers as high velocity as Alliant Reloader 15 but we have not read a report from any one else who is using it.

I am looking forward to comparing load notes and results!

Your right about the .35 Rem. being a sleeper! You had some good in-depth posts on the Marlin board.

Slim,
Very interesting. Maybe it is I who should become "conservative". I also see a need to refine my statistical data. However, how many reloads are you getting before the need to "remove" that case from the group occurs??? I do not have enough data to answer at present.

how many reloads are you getting before the need to "remove" that case from the group occurs??? .

I get eight+ loads per case. That is to say if I use a group of cases for only my top loads I get eight or more loadings after I have fire formed them. This is starting off with new cases.

Part of your testing should seggregate a couple of cases that are new and a couple that have been reloaded as .30-30's. You will either break the .30-30 cases in short order or come close. You need to check the webs for stretching every time you load them. Check these cases for stretching also. I have posted at least two pictures of broken Hornet and .30-30AI cases on the forum. The .30-30AI cases push out with a stiff brush on a rod but they would sure ruin a hunt!

Neck up a control group of cases and then size them to form a secondary shoulder. Check these regularly and look for stretching at the web. These cases will stretch less but will not last much longer.

You will reject your cases for loose primer pockets before any other reason. I am not talking about leaking pockets. I mean the pockets offer less resistance to the primer being seated. We are dealing with pressure above 50,000 CUP with our top loads in brass and rifles that are not specificly designed for it. Brass is cheap.

Edit: One more thought and then I'll hush up. Get a Lyman M-Die. You will find with compressed powder charges that you tend to set the shoulder back. Some call this collapsing the shoulder and that is a good description. The .30-30AI is easier to load if you prep your necks with the M Die first. Without this step in your early loading you will set a few shoulders back just far enought prevent easy chambering. These cases will excape your visual inspection. When you measure the shoulder on these cases you will see what I mean.