I am looking for a wildcat cartridge that has the same rim size as a 45/70 or a 348 winchester I am getting a rifle built in the 348 or the 45/70 and wanted another barrel in a fast stepping 25 caliber equivilant of a 25/06 I can easily go with either rim size but cant find info on anything like this being done before any suggestions

Quisto56

It looks like you are pioneering on that wildcat , entering
unexplored land!!. I sounds very interestering though.
Here in denmark, many years ago we had a caliber
called"6.5 krag" which envolved originly a shell little longer
than the 45-70 necked down to .264 cal. I don`t believed it
became very popular, why I don`t know??. I have some of the original cartrigdes in my collection, and it looks like it
has some kind of potential, even necked down even further.
Maybe a .33WCF necked down to .257 cal could do??.

I know SSK industries uses alot of 444 Marlin based wildcats....

The one I have been looking at is the 309 JDJ. its the 444 necked with a fairly steep shoulder.


I have been told that you don't really want to make small bore wildcats from a .45-70 case....Somthing about the way the base webbing is....but with that, I may have been misled.

As Rigbymauser stated, I found a 25 Ackley Krag...it didn't give much in the way of info, but its fairly quick...top 100gr. loads were listed at 3400 fps.

The 348 is used for the 450 Alaskan...But again, I am unaware of any that get necked down...

DB

You might want to get your hands on a copy of P.O.Ackley's books 'Handbook For Shooters and Reloader" 2 volumes.
There's a ton of data on wildcats in there, and I'm sure some of what you're looking for.
One caution: P.O. got data from the folks that made their wildcat, and published the loading data they gave him. All from long before pressure gauges and chronographs.....
Some of the looading data is downright scary, IMO.
Still, the books are a terrific resource of older wildcats, rifle action strength, and several other subjects.

I am looking for a wildcat cartridge that has the same rim size as a 45/70 or a 348 winchester I am getting a rifle built in the 348 or the 45/70 and wanted another barrel in a fast stepping 25 caliber equivilant of a 25/06 I can easily go with either rim size but cant find info on anything like this being done before any suggestions

Quisto56


Quisto56,

You may find it interesting to compare the 348 case to the WSM case. You will find that the WSM case could be made by turning the rim and blowing out the taper and shoulder. If you mean to leave the taper and shoulder as is then the comparison is of little use to you but if an improved version is what you are thinking of then take a look at www.shortmags.org look under wildcats in thier forum.

8mmwapiti

Rick Jamison, the gunwriter with Shooting Times has worked with all the common bore diameter wildcats based on the 45-70 Gov't case. There might be a track to follow. I read this a few years back when the "internet flames" fanned the 45-70 popularity and it was suddenly re-re-rediscovered. :)

The .25-8mm Rem.Mag.reamer can be used to cut a chamber such as you desire,if a rim recess is required it must be done on a lathe or with a counterbore.

The chamber would have a base dia. of .5066,shoulder dia.
.488,neck dia. .290,base-shoulder length 1.565,neck length .263,and a shoulder angle of 25 degrees.Case length is 2.1.Case capacity is greater than the .25-06 Rem. but less than the .25-06 Rem.Improved.The neck would need reamed.

The ,.25-8mm Rem. Mag., reamer can be rented ,sparing the expense of a custom reamer.

I have the .30 caliber version of the cartridge mentioned above. Cases are a bit of work to form but they turn out good.

I call my version the .30-45/70 HLS.

WC

I am looking for a wildcat cartridge that has the same rim size as a 45/70 or a 348 winchester I am getting a rifle built in the 348 or the 45/70 and wanted another barrel in a fast stepping 25 caliber equivilant of a 25/06 I can easily go with either rim size but cant find info on anything like this being done before any suggestions

Quisto56

The 25-06 and a 25/284 are about the same case capacity, approximately 60-62 grains of water. A 25/45-70 with the same neck length and shoulder angle will give about 70 grains capacity.

Modern 45-70 brass, at least Winchester, is capable of standard caliber pressures including the 25-06. A 25/45-70 with its extra 10 grains capacity would be one hot gun.

The VVC line of cartridges from http://www.virginvalleyguns.com/ are based on necked-down 45-70 case and includes a .257. I had plans of trying one in a Siamese Mauser but the project never materialized...

What kind of rifle? If a bolt or single shot like the No. 1, OK. If a lever then you may have trouble getting the performance you want. Not only with a lever would you be limited to using flat nose bullets, but you also run into pressure problems. The .348 and .45-70 have huge heads, so even with modest pressures you generate a lot of back thrust on the bolt. That is why in lever actions and even in the Contender, PSI is not as much a consideration as is head size and back thrust (you can load a .223 55K psi in a Contender but cannot load a 55K psi .308 because the larger head size exceeds the Contenders safe back thrust limit, same with the .45-70, the larger the head, the lower the PSI to achieve the same back thrust). If you neck down the .348 or .45-70 to .257 caliber, you cannot get the pressures any higher than you can with the .45-70, or roughly 44K in a Marlin 1895, so that is not going to give you a very high velocity. Higher than what the .45-70 gives with the heavier bullet, but nowhere near the velocity you would get out of a bolt gun or No. 1 where you can load it up to 55K.
Of course, if you are using a bolt or strong SS, then all the above is mute.

I can't find any info on this ever being attempted either. You would be in new territory. One drawback to the project would be cost of a die set to reform the cases to .25 - it would require several steps and reaming. The tooling for chambering reamer (s) and sizing die reamers may not be worth the expense. The .45-70 and .348 don't share the same case - the .348 is based on the .50-110 and is slightly larger in diameter than the .45-70. The .348 WCF case is similar to the .450 Nitro Express. There are .257 wildcats based on the .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .303 British cases and necking up and improving the .220 Swift is within the realm of possibility. Some have also used the .350 Rem. Mag and .264 Winchester cases - why is the question. My opinion is that it wouldn't be worth the expense. The .250 Savge, .257 Roberts (and the Ackley Improved version), .25-06, .257 WSSM and .257Weatherby have the .257" bore covered well.

axlenut

I am looking for a wildcat cartridge that has the same rim size as a 45/70 or a 348 winchester I am getting a rifle built in the 348 or the 45/70 and wanted another barrel in a fast stepping 25 caliber equivilant of a 25/06 I can easily go with either rim size but cant find info on anything like this being done before any suggestions

Quisto56


You may want to take a look at the 257 JDJ. It is based on the 225 Win case. There is some information on the SSK web sight. www.sskindustries.com
If you are interested in a rimed 25 cal cartridge this may be what you are looking for.

8mmwapiti