Ok so... Long story short...my Sharps is a .52-70 NOT a 50-70 ... I learned by (stupidly ) buying 50-70 dies and loaded cartridges ( 20@ $73) ....only to find that the bullets keyhole at 20 yards...and lo and behold... the bore Mics ~.54 in the grooves and ~.52 at the lands.... boy do I feel dumb.
Okay; I know...I should have cast the bore and chamber but I was just too smart for myself... hey, we all have at least one of these stories... :rolleyes:


Now....the big question is:
IS it going to be okay to use the 'fireformed' brass and just load up with the .535 conical based bullets Dixie sells and go from there or have I totally blown my money on the brass and dies??? I would only de-cap and seat with these dies, obviously...and not do any re-sizing... so any thoughts? If I Have my head on right here the .535 bullets should work... if not... what SHOULD I be using? this is not something a guy that's been reloading as long as I have should have to ask... but bear with me... BP re-loading is waaaaayy new to me...I don't know how forgiving these big soft bullets are in these cartridges....
Just be patient with me :p I make a pretty good student but not as good at researching on my own, apparently. Geeesh.

The OTHER thing is...I cannot find ANY .52-70 brass.... found dies ( at $90>>>whew<<<) but no brass.
Anyone?

Here is the deal as I understand it. At the end of the Civil War (AKA the War of Northern Agression..AKA The War of Southern Independence...AKA "The War", the Gov. had a pile of Sharps percussion carbines (they bought somewhere upwards of 80,000 of them). They had paid between $24 to $30 each for them (and a $1 in 1865 was a big deal).

So, from 1865 to 1873 the Gov. converted them to 50-70. Were already converting Trapdoors, sot eh idea of re-suing muskets wand the ability to convert was already in place.

The Gov. paid $6 to $7 to convert them...were a couple of variations, the 1867 and 1868 conversion, and are different by the way the firing pin was made to retract.

HERE IS THE PART YOU NEED TO KNOW: The passing gauge was set at .5225". ALl the Sharps that were that size or smaller were NOT RELINED or REBARRELED. They were converted using the over sized bore...so you get a .5225" bore trying to spin a .515" bullet from a 50/70 case. It is mentioned that the .515" 50/70 load didn't shoot too well from those .5225" bores (and the modern loadings using .512" bullets aren't going to be better)....but that's how there were made, and the right round for them is the 50/70.

So, if over .5225", they got relined or rebarreled...if .5225" or under, they were used as is.

To get them to work at all requires balck powder and a dead soft bullet. Black is a pretty good "bumper upper" of soft bullets, and it can slug a .515" nearly pure lead bullet up enough to be engraved in a .5225" barrel.

Becasue of chambering, you cannot use a .522" bullet into a case and still get it into the chamber...just not cut large enough to allow that and still release the bullet.

Thanks for the reply.

So, What you're saying is that these loads from Cabelas that I got must be loaded with Lineotype&Lead or somesuch....since they aren't expanding to the bore.... I know they're flat based... that is what I thought of first.... Loading up with a conical based bullet and see if that would open-up in the bore enough to work... maybe that's the safest FIRST path to go.

I knew of the conversions as this one is...but I guess I didn't remember (or ever know) about the bore size 'issue'.

Bottom line is that I may be trying to make the Proverbial Silk Purse from this one....from what I am gathering.

But onward anyway... I will see if I can gather up some 'hollow based' .515 or .512 bullets and see where that takes me...Reports to follow!
Thanks again!

Thanks for the reply.

So, What you're saying is that these loads from Cabelas that I got must be loaded with Lineotype&Lead or somesuch....since they aren't expanding to the bore.... I know they're flat based... that is what I thought of first.... Loading up with a conical based bullet and see if that would open-up in the bore enough to work... maybe that's the safest FIRST path to go.

I knew of the conversions as this one is...but I guess I didn't remember (or ever know) about the bore size 'issue'.

Bottom line is that I may be trying to make the Proverbial Silk Purse from this one....from what I am gathering.

But onward anyway... I will see if I can gather up some 'hollow based' .515 or .512 bullets and see where that takes me...Reports to follow!
Thanks again!

It is "as issued" and whatever problems you are having are pretty much what the toopers faced who were issued these...and even with all that, they gained popularity, so they must work.

Yep...when i got my last Rolling Block, it came with 12 loaded rounds of that same load. Is a too hard bullet for this pressure level to slug-up. This old Roller has a .515" bore, so my ammo problems aren't troublesome.

Before my molds came in, I tried some hollow based mini's (cast in a couple of lee molds). Now these only cast at .500" (one at .498")....in fact, all the popular muzzle loading hollow based bullets will be about .500" as they are designed to slide down the bore, so they are made more-or-less to land-to-land size rather than goove-to-groove size. I tried paper patching them to .515" and it worked pretty well in my barrel...but that option is probalby out as .520-522" is proably a bit too large to allow chambering.

IF I had that rifle to feed, would try to find a hollow based bullet of about 515"-518"...any larger, and it may not chamber in a normal 50-70 cut chamber... cast them as soft as you can and use FFg Black Powder. Baring that, try a plain based bullet cast as soft as possible, and as large as will allow chambering (with a bit of extra to allow the case to release the bullet).

IF you can live with a bit less power, try a fiber wad (are sold for 50 cal) under the bullet...or perhaps two. IF the bullet can engrave at least part of the way (even if not fully bottomed out in the grooves) it just may spin well and shoot well if you can stop the gas from blowing by the unfilled sides. Remember, the wad has to be solid against the base (of a flat based bullet), no air space between bullet and wad or air space between powder and wad...Zero air space in the cartidge.

You CAN get it to shoot well...may take a bit of fiddling, and it certainly won't shoot many loads well...but all you need is one load that does work to be in bussiness.

I have not completed shooting the box of 20 I bought...it pains me to shoot these knowing I'm just burning powder and not doing much else...since they cost me 73 bucks for the box.....
...but I have the dies, and soon ( after deer season in) will have some time to set up the press for loading some fresh rounds.
I found a few bullet molds in various places...haven't ordered anything yet but it looks like I am going to be putting about $90 into each mold (with handles) ...that seems steep ...so I want to maximize my buying. ****Note: I have recovered a few bullets...they DO have rifling on them...I am wondering if a maybe a SHORTER bllet would also help...*** So in that vain, I am going to go with a lighter (hence shorter) bullet for my first mold.

That's the scoop from New Hampshire

I have not completed shooting the box of 20 I bought...it pains me to shoot these knowing I'm just burning powder and not doing much else...since they cost me 73 bucks for the box.....
...but I have the dies, and soon ( after deer season in) will have some time to set up the press for loading some fresh rounds.
I found a few bullet molds in various places...haven't ordered anything yet but it looks like I am going to be putting about $90 into each mold (with handles) ...that seems steep ...so I want to maximize my buying. ****Note: I have recovered a few bullets...they DO have rifling on them...I am wondering if a maybe a SHORTER bllet would also help...*** So in that vain, I am going to go with a lighter (hence shorter) bullet for my first mold.

That's the scoop from New Hampshire

IF they are rifled, then they must be getting sluged up at firing...BP is good about that.

Are some short bullets that may work, if they can be seated into a 50/70 case and still chamber in that barrel. Dixie gun Works still makes a simple mold designed for Smith Carbines that runs about 280gr. and usually cast about .518". It's not hollow based, but is at least starting off closer to the needed diameter. And it's realitivly cheap for a more or less unitque design (think it's about $35 or $40).

Light and short is worth a try, but may be doing in the wrong direction. My luck has been with the longer heavier bullets...guess it's more inertia at ignition, but they seem to slug up in undersized bores well when booted in the butt by a full charge of black powder. May work just as well with short/light bullets...but do get them very soft and lube them with BP type bullet lubes.

YEp...50/70 cases cost a good bit more than standard calibers...but $73 a box for ammo certainly will make a reloader out of you quickly.

Warner Will,

Won't address your own observation of "stupid". Only that your rifle is a .50-70! There is no such thing as a .52-70. What you have is a .50-70 with a somewhat oversize bore. This is not uncommon.

The reason that the gov't. didn't rebarrel the Sharps guns with the .5225 bores is that lead bullets of proper temper over a black powderload will "bump up" to fill the rfling. The rifles will usually give acceptable accuracy for a few rounds. In a military setting the loss of accuracy in a few rounds due to fouling was a much greater concern, and one which was entirely overlooked in the heat of battle.

Many of the paper patch muzzleloading target rifles, usually referred to as slug guns, depended on this bumping up action to shoot accurately. As a matter of fact, even modern shooters have frequently found that an undersize bullet shoots better than a supposedly correctly sized bullet, when black powder is the propellant.

My suggestion would be to obtain a standard .50-70 450 mould from Lyman, RCBS, Lee, or other source and cast bullets using a binary alloy of not more than 3% Tin. This alloy will allow the bullet to expand under inertia and fill the grooves. The second secret to the equasion is to use black powder, smokeless won't give a sharp enough impulse to the bullet to cause it to bump up. Be sure to use a black powder specific bullet lube.

You can get .50-70 brass from Midway (Bertram), Dixie Gun Works (house branded), Buffalo Bore Bullets, Huntington's, etc. The brass will cost around $40/20 +/-. Lyman has .50-70 dies as a standard item for around $35 as I recall.

Thank you for the info!
I DID find a .52-70 as a listed CF BP cartridge somewhere, as I mentioned...I found Dies for a .52-70 also, I'll find the information ( I recall it was a LOT of searching) and post it here when I get a chance.
I thought it was a rare beast...but I have been shown the error of my ways.
Thanks again for the information.



Warner Will,

Won't address your own observation of "stupid". Only that your rifle is a .50-70! There is no such thing as a .52-70. What you have is a .50-70 with a somewhat oversize bore. This is not uncommon.

The reason that the gov't. didn't rebarrel the Sharps guns with the .5225 bores is that lead bullets of proper temper over a black powderload will "bump up" to fill the rfling. The rifles will usually give acceptable accuracy for a few rounds. In a military setting the loss of accuracy in a few rounds due to fouling was a much greater concern, and one which was entirely overlooked in the heat of battle.

Many of the paper patch muzzleloading target rifles, usually referred to as slug guns, depended on this bumping up action to shoot accurately. As a matter of fact, even modern shooters have frequently found that an undersize bullet shoots better than a supposedly correctly sized bullet, when black powder is the propellant.

My suggestion would be to obtain a standard .50-70 450 mould from Lyman, RCBS, Lee, or other source and cast bullets using a binary alloy of not more than 3% Tin. This alloy will allow the bullet to expand under inertia and fill the grooves. The second secret to the equasion is to use black powder, smokeless won't give a sharp enough impulse to the bullet to cause it to bump up. Be sure to use a black powder specific bullet lube.

You can get .50-70 brass from Midway (Bertram), Dixie Gun Works (house branded), Buffalo Bore Bullets, Huntington's, etc. The brass will cost around $40/20 +/-. Lyman has .50-70 dies as a standard item for around $35 as I recall.

Warner Will,

As Ribbonstone stated, black powder will obturate soft lead bullets in oversize bores to give accurate shooting. I have an original 1873 Winchester .44 W.C.F. (.44-40) which has an over size groove diameter of .433". It will shoot ok with lead bullets as small as .426" and may be even smaller.

You could also try paper patching the bullet to get it to the proper diameter.

Adding one or two .06" polyethylene wads as Ribbonstone suggested, cut to your rifle's groove diameter + .002 to the base of the bullet will seal the gas and allow the bullet to center itself in the barrel and give accurate shooting. I have fired undersized bullets in my '73 using one .06 poly wad and it shot remarkably well.

Polyethylene shot buffer will also work well in my experience.

Good luck,
John

Having touble with the computer...but if I didn't mention it before, will now.

BuffaloArms still lists a rapine mold, 520" and 300gr. (also have a 350gr. version). this is pretty much made for those oversized 50/70 barrels. Rapine makes a good mold, but at $80 New, they aren't cheap.

Gunshow a couple of weeks ago, picked up a .515" vbersion of the above mold. Cast at aboput 300gr. (alloy dependent) and is marked on teh strike plate as being from Shilo....but it's Rapine made fromt the looks of it, just makred for that company.

Can use it in the 50/70 as this one has a .515" bore....but I actually bought it for the handles. Earlier at the show, bought a Hoch 400gr. .461" mold (my 45-70 has a .460" bore). Noticed that .515" mold would be worth a try in the 50/70, but that it was mounted on a set of Hoch handles (for no good reason, the Rapine molds don't need that cut out on the handles required for a Hoch).

What I haven't found is any standard production .515" mold with a hollow base...that would proably work out pretty well in your situation.

Lee makes a 450gr. (and a 515gr.), but will cast .515". Not too hard to lap the rear two driving bands to .520"...and at the price of Lee single cavity molds, not too expensive a project.

Get yourself a 50cal hollowbase minie mould from lee ! Cast with pure to 1 to 40 lead tin alloy only ! No Type metal or antimony alloys at all ! Be glad you didn't buy the same cal in rimfire ! JAGG