Hi;
I was just wondering about how many other yoopers are out there. Like to share fishing and hunting stories and spots with them. Thanks Steve

I was for about 5 years if that counts for anything... and generally a good solid month per year otherwise...

Jamie

Former flatlander, yooper by choice since 1979. I've even learned to speak Yoopanese, eh?

I'm a troll but not too far away from the bridge....in the Petoskey area.

My favorite getaways are loading the jeep wrangler with tenting stuff and my guide gun for some good quality alone time in the Western UP.

I went last year and travelled from L'Anse to Ontonogan (sp), to Paulding and back to Marquette. Just west of Baraga I saw a young Moose cross the highway in front of me. Soon following was a lone wolf tagging along. Wow. I try to make it up there each summer.


Perferator

Hi;
I was just wondering about how many other yoopers are out there. Like to share fishing and hunting stories and spots with them. Thanks Steve
Not anymore..now in the land of gators and swamps...but I did live a couple years in the Soo. Loved it up there! I even miss the snow (Where's my car??....oh, there it is, I see the radio antenna sticking up out of the snow!)

Yep. I'm a yooper. Once a Yooper, always a Yooper.

I now live near Madison but my folks and wife folks still Live in Manistique. I go up quite often, family owns land that I plan to keep in the family. Do all my hunting in the U.P.

Was raised a troll, 40 miles north of Detroit but my father lived in the UP for years working for Edison and we still head up to Gogebic to fish and Muskellunge to camp. I love the UP.

Say yeh to the UP eh.

Yep. I'm a yooper. Once a Yooper, always a Yooper.

I now live near Madison but my folks and wife folks still Live in Manistique. I go up quite often, family owns land that I plan to keep in the family. Do all my hunting in the U.P.

The politics around Madison must drive you crazy like it does my dad. Anyway, I'm just a troll, but I love the UP. We spent a lot of time camping on Lake Michigan, and you can't beat the wild blueberries. In my opinion, the UP would be perfect if only God hadn't created deer flies.

Yes the politics of the Madison area are absolutely nuts!

In fact I had to move outside the city limits just to have some form of sanity.

Just cleaned up and put the ole (brand new I just bought this year) 35 Rem in the gun safe.

I also have a family cabin on a inland lake just about 15 miles north of Manistique. No hunting property but is really cool to have lakefront property. Sure it is a smaller sized lake but... No power boats allowed. And the DNR did a study and the result was that the DNR sceintist said that in his entire career he has never seen a more pristine lake.

Besides, who needs power boats when I can take my girls in a conoe and spend some quality time :D :D :D

AMNDOUGLAS.
Yep the deer flie are bad but mosquitoes are even worse. It is amazing how we learned to ignore them. It is so funny to watch tourists come up and try to go fishing or better yet camping and get totally ate by bugs. I live in Republic Michigan and we are known as the mosquito capitol of the world but you know you get used to it after the frist week or two. It is a trade off. I know you guys in Alaska understand. You have to pay a price to live in such a beautiful place. Where else can you see wolves, coyotes, moose, eagles and more deer than you can imagine from your own back yard? Well no moose in back yard yet, But there are some a few miles up the road. Breathtaking views, Snowmibiling at its best, and usually 4 1/2 to 5 months of ice fishing. Bill Cosby appeared at NMU a couple weeks ago. His first words were "Why would anybody live here? couldn't you see there is nothing here?" Well that ism a hard to answer question. I guess the answer lies in our hearts. There is nothing here. No drugs, no crime, Just an honest hard life where people help people. I don't think Bill will be invited back either. Everyone is welcome to come up and enjoy a little of "Gods Countyr", But don't be surprised when you want to stay.. God Bless Steve

This past summer my fiance and I took a two week road trip from PA to Glacier National Park in Montana. On the way out we went through Michigan. We loved the UP! Beautiful area. We only passed through the state, so we didn't get to see as much as we would have liked to, though.

Big Spring Kitchi-ti-kipi, Paulding lights, Brockway mountain, Ontonogan gorge, Porcupine Mts, Tacquamenomenone or something falls, H58 (munising to grand marais).....what more could you possibly ask for??


Perferator

backwoodswalker,
I was looking at some property in your area, seems to be quite a bit of it for sale. Beautiful area there, isn't there moose not far from you also?

Yes there is alot of property around here for sale. Alot of state owned property is going up. Vacant land is pretty cheap, You can find it for 750 an acre and up. Developed property is alot more. Wells and septics are the expensive things. Wells are drilled due to rock and septics are wierd = expensive. If you look at a map of the U.P, follow 95 north out of Iron Mountain and you will come to Marquette county. 1 mile north of county line is where I live. It is really Witch Lake. If you are interested in property up here I could get you some realtors in area phone numbers. While looking at the map look at all the lakes and rivers right here where I am. No people around me. Nearest year round neighbor is over a mile away. If you are looking for a camp, sometimes you can find one that is being sold very cheap. Most "apple knockers" buy a couple acres and set up a camper for camp up here. So much state and cfr property up here you could never see it all. CFR is for people and companies who own alot of property, They can open it up to public to hunt fish camp and cut dead firewood on. I return they pay 1.00 per acre in property taxes per year. Yes there are Moose here. About 6 miles north all the way up to Lake superior there are moose. They are slowly migrating south. We are like Alaska in alot of ways. Lots of beauty, Lots of game, No good jobs. If you make 20,000 a year you are doing good. Me and my wife both work so we do very good up here. People who come here and think it is easy, Usually don't make it. Life is hard here. You do alot of sustinance hunting. Pick wild berries and fish and hunt to keep from going hungry. Everything is expensive here. Everything is shipped in from somewhere else, So price is high. You heat with wood for 6 months a year on a good winter sometimes longer. You eat alot of fish and venison. Raise your own beef and pork and chickens and help your neighbors when they need it. Gardens do not grow around here. Hard to grow anything on a rock. Sounds bad eh? But when a person gets used to it, Its not so bad. Those of us that were born into it would not trade it for anything in the world. Hope this helps. It is the way life is here. In the city I am sure it is different, But who wants to live in the city? God Bless Steve

Big Spring Kitchi-ti-kipi, Paulding lights, Brockway mountain, Ontonogan gorge, Porcupine Mts, Tacquamenomenone or something falls, H58 (munising to grand marais).....what more could you possibly ask for??


Perferator


Ahhh brockway and the Keweenaw... i know it alllll too well... and now i'm homesick

Keweenaw point and Schlatter Lake are 2 absolutely great locations... as well as Perrault Lake south of Houghton for some good fast paced trout fishing with an area to camp... Too bad the salmon trout is now blocked from public access below the Redridge dam... not to mention they FUBAR'd the Redridge dam so the lake behind is pretty messed up now...

Don't forget a stop at the Gay bar... and the Mandan loop is a nice scenic day long trip through the woods... If you do this look at taking a smaller vehicle or ORV... some of the side trails which lead to some pretty kick butt locations are narrow... 4 wheel drive is nice if it hasn't been dry... last time i was around it there were some good washouts and such... we used all of the suspension we had...

Back to Brockway... if you didn't know... there IS a trail that will get you to the top of Cliff drive also... either by walking or it used to be wide enough for a vehicle... pretty good hike... and if it's your game excellent mountain climbing on the cliff...

Merry Christmas

Jamie

i have lived in upper michigan since 1994.i moved here from california. i aint never seen anything like it here since we moved to minnisota and wisconsin but always came back.i have been liking it here except the winters are bad on me but i manage. i am trying to get back into white tale deer hunting here

Winters are rough on everybody. Last weekend we got 31 inches of snow and now it is 12 below. Rough environment. Really cracks me up, Watch the weather channel and all they cry about is 1 inch of snow in New York or 50 degrees in Florida. They don't care about anyplace else. We get snow by the foot instead of inches and never make the weather channel. Last winter was really cold, Ground froze over 8 feet deep. Peoples sewers were freezing up. Wter mains all over town were froze. They were handing out bottled water at the fire hall. Great place to live though. Merry Christmas to all.

yeah i am in the u.p in delta county we aint been in that deep of snow yet. but the temp is -4 below.

backwoodswalker

I grew up in the UP. Lived there for 20 years. I now reside in the south suburbs of Chicago...I know this is off the topic a bit, but you quoted Bill Cosby and went on to state:

"No drugs, no crime..." etc.

That's only half true. The drug problem in the UP is just as bad or worse than everywhere else...especially on the western end...from Marquette and Escanaba west...It's just as bad as the south burbs of the city...

My wife and I are just finishing up a new home on Jug Lake, about 25 miles NW of Manistique. We have been vacationing in the UP since the 60's.My sister has a home on Gooseneck Lake and another sister and a brother have plans to build up there soon. I like to fly fish the streams and participate in the muzzleloading season.

In many ways the UP is very much like the remote areas in Colorado and Wyoming with vast acreage of National Forest and sparse population. The big difference is that the Western states have become "trendy" and have much higher growth projections. The UP may actually be depopulating. i have 23 acres in the middle of the Hiawatha National Forest with lake frontage. Land like this is still affordable in the UP.

The UP is a best kept secret kind of place.

undertaker89, do you get out and walleye fish on the bay there? I went last summer but I think waited too long as it was kinda warm and they weren't biting (it was June). Thinking about coming when it's a little cooler and hopefully bring back a bunch. I'd love to have some property in the UP as like 8iowa said, it's a best kept secret kind of place but don't know with my job if I could get up there like I'd want to. Guess I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled for some good land.

Rifle25;
You are somewhat correct on the statement that there are drugs to be had, But not for long. If they are lucky enough to get turned in and caught by police the judges up here make examples of them. I have alot of family in the lower peninsula and get news papers from there. I see "druggies" are slapped on the wrist down there. They are punished to full extent of the law here. I am sure it will change in time. Locally we have no police force. The nearest would be Ishpeming and they do not come here. We have county and state which we never see. We know everybody who lives here and when a stranger starts hanging around people keep an eye on them. If someone brings drugs around and the parents find out, They seem to have some very bad luck as in blood loss, tooth loss, broken bones. We enjoy our clean drug free way of life and drugs are not welcome. As my generation passes away and the younger one takes over it may change, But I don't think so. They enjoy the good feeling from being with friends and family and not drugs. It was instilled in us as children and we do our best to pass it on to our kids and grandkids. As for crime, we really do not have any. You can leave your house unlocked and keys in your car and not worry. Of course my driveway is just over 1/4 mile long to the road and nearest store is 9 miles one way. According to t.v I would be a perfect target for thieves. In 42 years I have never had anything taken or bothered. On the other hand, We went down to Decatur Michigan over the 4th of July and visited some family. We spent the night and the next morning I went out to the van at aroung 6 a.m and found an 8 year old boy sleeping in it. He ate 1 sub sandwich and drank 1 coke from my cooler. Brought him in and fed him breakfast and found out his name and took him home. Parents are known alchoholics and druggies. I sure do wish I could have brought him home with me. What a terrible life for anyone let alone a child. Maybe as adults it our responsibility to get the drug houses and dealers out of the towns we live in, Not just the police. There hands are tied alot tighter than ours. Merry Christmas to all.

backwoodswalker

You are right about the way of life and the punishment of the drug infractions...but, the reason people think there is not a drug problem up there is because it goes highly unnoticed. The police don't catch hardly anyone...yes, they do a great job of enforcement when people are caught. But, it seems to me that rarely is anyone caught, and this is not because it isn't happening. Like you said, the police force is small.

If the nearest police force to you is Ishpeming, where do you live??? Republic? Michigamme?

I love the UP, wish I could get back there someday. The slow pace and outdoors are a huge attraction for me...But I'm only half a day away...I get up there to hunt and fish every year and my family still resides up north. I have a lot of family in Ishpeming actually...and also Iron Mountain.

undertaker89, do you get out and walleye fish on the bay there? I went last summer but I think waited too long as it was kinda warm and they weren't biting (it was June). Thinking about coming when it's a little cooler and hopefully bring back a bunch. I'd love to have some property in the UP as like 8iowa said, it's a best kept secret kind of place but don't know with my job if I could get up there like I'd want to. Guess I'll just have to keep my eyes peeled for some good land.

yes i get out and fish as much as i can. i even bought a .45 cal pistol for protection last year before that it was a .22.
being handicapped and walking with a cane i wanted something to carry. with all the animals out there now you never know. i have been at the hiawatha forest area myself.
my uncle has a cabin there and the whitefish river is nice in the spring i wait until april. but i also have a day pack too. :D

Undertaker89;
I live out in the boonies south of republic. Really it is Witch Lake, But republic delivers our mail. Maybe someday when you are up here we can get out and do some fishing. Merry Christmas Steve

For those of you who are casually viewing this thread, you can't help but notice the strong personal feelings that yoopers have with their "land above the bridge". This is unique in this day and age. They refer to the UP as "Gods country" and they really mean it.

I'm grabbin' my snowshoes and let's go!

That's because 90% of Yoopers have never lived anywhere else... lol ... it is a great place though, but "God's Country?" The whole world is "God's Country" :) And for my money, Western Montana would get that honor...

That's because 90% of Yoopers have never lived anywhere else... lol ... it is a great place though, but "God's Country?" The whole world is "God's Country" :) And for my money, Western Montana would get that honor...

This is true. Most people up here have never even been below the bridge. I on the other hand have been all over. I spent 3 years in the Army, Drove truck over the road for 16 years. Traveled 38 of the lower states. So I think I have seen a little bit of life. Something about the U.P that just pulls me back. There are alot of beautiful places in this country and I do not know how to describe the feeling. There are no good paying jobs up here. To go shopping is a long trip. Everything is expensive. I just love the way of life. Some of you others out there understand what I mean, Others do not. I believe this is Gods Country. I believe this comes from the "inner peace" this place gives us "yoopers" Everyone has there place they like. I will always remember one winter I was stuck on Donner Pass in a snowstorm. I parked at pull-off at top and went to bed. In the morning I saw the most beautiful sight ever. A beautiful crystal clear sunrise in a world of white with the Mountains for the surrounding effect. If Gods Country was defined by beauty, That is definitely Gods Country. I think the definition is wherever a person feels at home at. For some the city is it, for others the flatlands of Iowa are it. For me it is the U.P. But I have not made it to Alaska yet either> God Bless and Merry Christmas.

I love to VISIT the UP :).

Hey, got a question for the Yoopers. Have any of you seen cougar or sign? Just curious. I know in some places no one wants to talk about it like it's the Paulding light, Bigfoot or UFO's....just trying to casually collect info. Was just up to Rudyard for the Bridge Brawl wrestling tournament last friday.

Merry Christmas to all.


Perferator

backwoodswalker,
I was in Alaska a couple of years back, and if it wasn't for the mountains and the license plates, I wouldn't have been aware of any difference between Alaska and da Yoop.

I love to VISIT the UP :).

Hey, got a question for the Yoopers. Have any of you seen cougar or sign? Just curious. I know in some places no one wants to talk about it like it's the Paulding light, Bigfoot or UFO's....just trying to casually collect info. Was just up to Rudyard for the Bridge Brawl wrestling tournament last friday.

Merry Christmas to all.


Perferator

I personally have not had an eye witness. However my best friends dad and brother did. They are woodsman and trappers/loggers. They know the difference between a bob cat and a cougar.

My wifes grand mother also saw one.

Both of these are in or just north of Manistique.

I have also heard this year several reports of cougar in the area where I hunt deer in the Rock MI area.

The DNR still refuse to believe they are here. However I also read an article from my alma matter Michigan Tech. They had two professors there (Husban & Wife I think) who wer collecting droppings etc. Well if their "stuff" is dropped in teh woods they muct be there!

Wolves are also making their presence known.

Yooper;
I ahve been told the same thing by alot of people. I would jut like to see Alaska once before my number comes up though. I am told you can still drink the water out of creeks and river there. Would not try it anymore here. The Iron mines have really screwed up the environment. Poured thousands and thousands of gallons of mercury down the drain through the years. Some lakes by the mines you can't eat fish from. Thank God I am far enough away from them to not have to worry about that. Have alot of springs in this area, Best drinking water around. I can believe we are alot like Alaske the way it is snowing lately. -27 Christmas morning and today snowing hard. Already about 9 inches and callin for 15-18 more today on local tv6..
Eagle eye;
Dont let the dnr fool you, We have cougars ie mountain lions up here. I have never seen the animal myself but I have seen tracks and several people have seen them . The latest was a couple weeks ago right by South Republic. Just down the road a couple miles is where Dickinson and Marquette county dump all the roadhit animals around here. They have been seen there alot. NMU game biologists have picked up dropping and taken pics of tracks. I personally have talked to them and they say there is no way they are bobcats. It will take a person getting killed by one to get the dnr to admit to them being here. They say there are no more than 85 wolves in the U.P too. They are nuts. Wolves are very common around here. I have had up to 3 at a time in my yard. Had a really pretty black one here for all of last summer. He has moved on now. They wonder why the deer population is way down and bear is way up. Well go figure. Wolves and coyotes eat quite a few deer in winter when they can get nothing else. Bear hibernate at that time so they do not get ate. Plenty of tourist food in summer so wolves don't bother the little bears. Deer don't make it and bears do. Of course I do not have a college degree or a badge so i don't know what i am talking about, I have only lived in the bush all my life and seen how nature works first hand. Don't get me wrong I know for a fact wolf and deer can live together. Look at the late 30's and through the 40's at the trophy deer up here. Wolves were still common, Then man put a bounty on them and they were pretty much wiped out. Then man started logging big time. Thousand of acres of trees cut down a year. Look now we have no big trees left. Man took away the natural home for the deer and they have dwindled in numbers ever since. No i am not a tree hugger either. But lets put blame where it belongs. The past few years the deer season has been pretty bad for most. The secret is go deeper in the woods. There are some really nice deer around but you cannot just drive up to them with your 4 wheeler anymore. They got smart. Most deer people see from the road are young small ones that know no better. The don't make it. The big old cedar swamps still hold some nice deer. Most people are too lazy to walk the 3 or 4 miles to get to them. I will get some pics of the wolves we see around here and post them. I would like to get one of a cat, but probably never will. They are one of the very smartest hunters alive. Alot of people complain about cat and dogs so I tell them, Take a Man, Cat and a dog and turn them loose in the woods with nothing, The man will be the first one dead, The dog second and the cat will probably die of old age. Still think man is at top of food chain??? Something to think about.

I personally have not had an eye witness. However my best friends dad and brother did. They are woodsman and trappers/loggers. They know the difference between a bob cat and a cougar.

My wifes grand mother also saw one.

Both of these are in or just north of Manistique.

I have also heard this year several reports of cougar in the area where I hunt deer in the Rock MI area.

The DNR still refuse to believe they are here. However I also read an article from my alma matter Michigan Tech. They had two professors there (Husban & Wife I think) who wer collecting droppings etc. Well if their "stuff" is dropped in teh woods they muct be there!

Wolves are also making their presence known.


Good to see a fellow Alumnus here...

I also agree with backwoods... I've hunted Iron River in the Sunset Lake area for almost 20 years... i've seen a time when you'd take a nice deer every year... then the 4 wheelers and baiters came... then they left when nothing but does wandered... then the wolves came... it's been pretty bad, especially 2nd week of firearm... for the last 6 or 7 years... my neighbors who are local to the area have seen the pack of wolves wandering the area between sunset lake and the paint river.. they total 13 dogs (the most they saw at one time)... they are very vocal... it is really easy to see the deer numbers are down significantly... the deer are extremely skittish... bucks are smart... they hitail it to undisturbed ground as soon as the yokals from down south hit the trails with their 4 wheelers... bow season you see some nice horns... after opening day... good luck... me... i still hike a mile to a mile and a half in the dark each morning... sometimes further to get to undisturbed ground... i miss the old days (well old to me)...

Jamie

I have no doubt that there are cougars in the U.P. I saw the back half of one about twelve years ago in Florence County, Wisconsin as it jumped into the brush. It was way too big for a bobcat, and I've never seen a dog move like that! I thought I was seeing things!

I saw one (a cougar) during the summer of 1998 in northern Dickinson County close to the M-95 and M-69 Junction. Definitely wasn't a bobcat...

I have to give some praise to the dnr for not recognizing the fact that cougars are in the UP. Can you imagine the influx of wackos that would try to close off all sorts of areas to protect them? That's my opinion at least...

I remember seeing a bison at the M-95/M-69 (County road 569 at the time) junction in 1961 or 1962. If memory serves, the owner of the property on the SE corner raised them.

Yooper - Yep, I think the bison were there until not too long ago...but I couldn't tell you the year. I remember seeing them when I was little and my parents have mentioned them.

I was just wondering about how many other yoopers are out there. Like to share fishing and hunting stories and spots with them. Thanks Steve[/QUOTE]


I worked out of Marquette for the Sea Lamprey Control unit of the USF&W Service in the early 70's from Apr-Nov. and have great memories of the UP, as well as northern WI and NY. We treated the tribs of Superior, Michigan, Heron & Ontario.

There has to be cougars in the UP because they are in the LP! My parents now live in the central LP area and a guy not far from them got a cougar on a deer cam and they ran it in the local paper. Of course the DNR will deny it because if they list it as being here, it will have to be listed as either threatened or endangered here and that will cost $$$.

Backwoods I know where you're coming from as my dad who is now 70 and has hunted deer since the 40's talks of the old days when if you wanted a big deer, you went to the UP as there were no deer in the southern LP. He still remembers waiting for the ferry to cross the straights before the bridge was built. You are right that the deer and wolves can live together and if there are adequate deer populations, it will probably result in a healtier deer herd. But I remember a few years ago you had a huge winter kill of the deer herd and I went hunting in Menominee Co. and the only deer I saw were at night driving to town. I saw more bear. With fewer deer, the wolves have to eat something and I wouldn't be surprised if before too long there are attacks on livestock. I dont' know how the deer population is now but seems like it's still pretty low. If it were up to me, I wouldn't allow any doe permits up there until the population is up. Is there elk up there? If not, I'd also try to reintroduce them as well.

Nope we don't have any elk up here. There is talk of making the entire U.P a quality deer management unit. I don't know that they will though. Just a few years ago the insurance companies starting complaining that there were too many car deer accidents up here, So they got pretty liberal with doe permits. I don't know if that really had anything to do with anything. We do get some rough winters but they have been much worse in the past. Our winters seem to be warmer and not so much snow as in the past. One thing to remember is deer up here migrate south. Usually in November or December the deer will literally "head south". Around sagola and Crystal Falls there are herds of deer right now. Up here by me there are very few. Some hide out in the swamps for the winter. Most head for deer yards. Snow gets too deep up here. I believe alot has to do with loss of cover and food. There are no farmlands up here. On the good side the Moose population is thriving along with bear. Turkeys are all over just south of me. Rabbits are trying to come back. Partridge seem to down. I don't hunt them like I used to. I would like to see a moose season put in, But I am sure I never will. If they do it will be some deal where only the rich can afford it. I figure some day a cougar will get hit by a xcar or truck and then they will have a carcass to view. I bet they still deny it though.

The deer seem to follow the farms. Menominee County is usually infested with deer! Damage to alfalfa fields can be considerable, and farmers can usually get nuisance deer permits. Black bear like to roll around in corn fields flattening corn stalks, too.

I saw one (a cougar) during the summer of 1998 in northern Dickinson County close to the M-95 and M-69 Junction. Definitely wasn't a bobcat...

I have to give some praise to the dnr for not recognizing the fact that cougars are in the UP. Can you imagine the influx of wackos that would try to close off all sorts of areas to protect them? That's my opinion at least...



My brother spoke to a DNR officer that told him they would prefer to have no official announcement of the cougar "comeback" in michigan due to the disruption of bureaucracy and redtape....like you had said.




Perferator

I hunt in a Quality Deer Managment (QDM) area. There are no doe permits and we must shoot a buck with at least 3 points on one side to be legal. It is in the northern half of Delta county halfway between Escanaba and Marquette. To be more precise 4 miles north of Rock on M-35.

Here is my anecdotal experience with QDM over the last 4 years it has been in place. It does NOT work. And I hear they are going to send out survey's to Michigan hunters asking for QDM to be imposed UP wide.

If anyone gets this survey please vote NO.

My whole hunting party are seenig less deer. We continue to let the smaller spikes etc go for the last several years and we have seen no sucess of this. In fact we are seeing fewer and fewer deer. And another strange thing is that we are seeing a much HIGHER percentage of small bucks. In fact we are almost not seeing any does at all. Years before this QDM B.S. was instituted, we saw lots of does and rarely a buck. Now we see no does and lots of small bucks that are mostly not legal to shoot.

My thoughts are that mother nature in the form of harsh winters and the likes of wolves, bears and now cougars tend to control deer populations far more and render QDM useless.

Furthermore, I think that large antler growth is a result of genetics and food supply. In the swamps I hunt with no agriculture for deer to eat there just isn't a lot of excess energy that can be diverted into growing large antlers. Heck, I've seen spike horns taken were we hunt that are easily 50 pounds heavier than 8 & 10 pointers taken in other locations.

Again my experience with QDM is a complete mess up of the deer population and the buck to doe ratio is doing EXACTLY the opposite of what QDM is supposed to do.

I think that we let the smaller buck go and IF, and that is a big if, they survive the winter there is so much swamp for them to hide in we never see them again. There is not enough hunting pressure to move the deer like in the LP. (which I find nice, if I see another hunter other than in my own hunting party I'm ticked off!!)

Has anybody else had any experience with QDM.

eagleeye,

You raise some good points and questions, many that are very hard to answer. My experience with QDM was positive but this was on private property where you can control every aspect of it, including culling does and inferior bucks.

On public land there are many more variables to deal with when attempting QDM, some which can't or are very difficult to control. My opinion with the UP is they didn't have a deer population it should have to impliment QDM to begin with. My personal opinion is that the DNR screwed up and should've made the QDM experimental area in the northern/central LP where there were a lot of deer. I also believe that before implimenting a QDM plan, they should have just went with no doe permits and let the population build up a little before going with the antler limits. Seems to me as it is now, you won't see results for much longer because there weren't a lot of breeding does to begin with and it'll take time for the bucks to mature to legal antler size.

I'm not so sure how well the QDM will work on public land because one red flag I saw in your post is your reference to the spikes. Young spikes can develop nice antlers...or they never will. The problem with the spike is like you said, some will get to be mature bucks with poor genentics. He will drive off younger bucks with good genetics and breed. But he can't be shot because he doesn't meet the antler restriction. So his genes get passed on. Kinda a catch-22 and it's counter productive. There are many aspects of QDM, including culling inferior bucks. Will this work on public land? I don't know as QDM is more than antler restriction, it involves much more that I don't know how well it can be controlled on public land vs private.

Eagleye and m1garand both bring up some very good and true points. I do not believe qdm's work but as I said before i have no degree or badge so my 2 cents are worthless. I was told they are sending out their questionarres to all liscenced hunters that purchased a liscence this year. Alot of out of state hunters will recieve one as well as downstaters. Now before I open this can of worms, i will tell anyone I have absolutly nothing against "Tourist Hunters". They pump alot of money in our economy up here. But how will they know much about our deer herd and deer numbers when they are only here a week or two in November? If you come up from Millwaukeee ir Chicago and see alot of small deer or any deer for that matter, Of course they will think there are alot of deer. They don't have many at home to see. but those of us whio live here and hunt and fish and are basically in the woods year round are not asked or not believed. The deer herd is way down. Like eagleye said, We see alot of spikes too. I do not know why but we do. Alot of really small deer too. Here around witck lake there is no real farmland except a few potato fields and little tracts of hay. South of me there are some larger farms and as eagleye said they get crop damage permits. Right there is on thing I would do away with if I could. It really makes me sick to see those guys kill deer like they do. They give them book of 100 permits or more and they have "parties" shooting them. They shoot them at night or day, spring, summer, and fall. That really makes me sick. If they really have this problem, why not let hunters go in and thin them out? Most of these places will not allow anyone to hunt their property and one I know charges people to hunt his. After "slaughtering" the deer some of them just bury them. Sickening!!! Then to top it all off they still claim crop damage on their insurance. Look at Preaque Isle, They maintain a cetain number of deer there and instead of letting hunters thin them out, They use police "sharpshooters" to thin them at a price to the taxpayer of 100 to 1200 bucks a deer.. Hmmm, Wolves, Cougars, Coyotes,Farmers, Police, Cars, Trucks, Winter kill, Hunters..... Wonder how there are any left,,,, It is a real shame. Used to be peolpe all dreamed of going "up north" Deer hunting, Now I am beginning to think I will go "down south" Deer hunting. Alot more in southern lower and alot bigger too...... God Bless

I think we have to consider the source where Quality Deer Management is concerned. This is the same outfit which wants to deny the existence of cougar in the U.P.!

Deer management is a very complicated thing, and it can be years before the herd dynamics are changed. Frankly, after giving it some thought, I just don't know how it will ever work on public land. It works very well indeed on private land, where access is controlled, deer numbers are regulated, habitat is improved, and the hunters are disciplined.

Big deer can be shot during the rut, when they get stupid (if the right ratio of bucks to does is achieved).

You can manage the herd, and still have a lot of deer killed, but it's not simple and I don't know that it will ever work on public land. Too big of difference between what one person considers a trophy and the next person considers an inferior buck.

Yooper, good point, because my thoughts as well, much of this is based on $$$. Also FYI the method the DNR uses to estimate the deer herds is over 30 years old so take that for what it's worth on how accurate it is. Also there are many in that department who don't have a biology background. A while back I spoke to a DNR employee who has several years there and he thought a fox and grey squirrel were the same species. Granted he doesn't make the decisions but you get my point. How many are there like that making decisions on animals that they know virtually nothing about?

Backwoods, good points also. Years ago and even as recent as 20 years ago, the place to go for the deer and big bucks was was either the northern lower or the UP, esp. the UP.

I don't think non residents should get a say in this as they hunt with a different perspective and also aren't there year round. If you are in an area where the deer are low and they do offer doe permits (insurance pressure?) you may not want to take does because you know the numbers are low. A non resident or even someone from somewhere else in the state could care less and take a doe based on several reasons esp since they don't live in the area, what do they care? Maybe they should limit it to specific county residents. But then again, they want the $$$.

The reason you're seeing a lot of spikes is you can't cull them out and they're maturing and passing their poor genes on. Under QDM, they have to be culled out or it will hurt the program. QDM is a decent program but it involves many factors and not just "only shoot 6-pt and larger". Friends own about 900 acres and cull out does and inferior bucks and they now only shoot 8-pt bucks and larger and every year they take the biggest bucks I see. But they do it correctly and incorporate all factors, not just take 6-pt and bigger. The largerst deer harvest in the state since 2002 has been the southern lower, along with the largest bucks. I think the main reason is that 99% of the land is private. I really don't see the program working on public land as there's too many variables they can't control.

QDM works well on a smaller plot of land, but it's gonna be tough to implement it throughout the whole UP.

And in my estimation the size of the average deer gets larger the further north you go, due to the nasty winters...I grew up in Dickinson County, and the majority of the deer there are small. However, I used to hunt in the Porkies and every deer I saw was bigger than what i was seeing in Dickinson County...survival of the fittest, I would assume.

I'm not sure I may have fully presented my situation. I currently live in WI but I have grown up and hunted this same land (my grandfathers) since I was 12 years old. My dad, brother and uncle also have been the same hunting party for some 40 years.

We are in a QDM area and we hunt on basically private land. I say basically because while Mead papers owns some land abuting and it is un occupied and not hunted as far as we know. In fact I had better bring a compass because if I go south without knowing it I think I will walk approxomatly 20 miles before I'll run into any road that is mapped.

Basically the point I'm trying to make is that I and my hunting party are VERY familiar with the land and the area with a long tradition and experience to base our opinions on. We all feel this wild huge expanses of land can not relly allow QDM to work.

Furthermore, someone made good points about culling. Both my Dad and Uncle and brother all saw a "spike horn" that had at least 12 inch spikes with NO OTHER points on it. Here was probably a 3+ year old deer with apparent poor genetics that was not legal for us to shoot. What a bunch of bunk!

I agree that the surveys should NOT be sent to all liscensed hunters. Why the heck should someone who lives and hunts in the L.P. get a say in whether the entire UP goes to QDM? I think it should go to UP landowners with at least 20 acres or more. Or just open it up to go vote by stopping in a DNR office and then only the dedicated hunters will participate?

some LP residents are UP land owners and hunters... i am one of them... If i could find meaningful employment i'd be a permenant resident again...

We also butt up against 30 or 40 sq miles of CFA which for the most part is unhunted, most of it not more than maybe a mile in. our neighbors for the most part voluntarily partake in QDM as well as us. Some of them though, shoot anything that is brown and has bone growing out of it's head. if you look at the 160 next to us you'd think you were hunting texas with elevated tripod box blinds and big ole bait piles... it's just a slaughter... not hunting... spikes and forks don't even have a chance...

There was a time in the late 80's where we has PLENTY of bucks that were shooters and some pretty good ones at that... and plenty were taken... Deer were plentiful... and this lasted into the early 90's. What we saw was a huge influx of hunters for about 4 years that literally decimated the buck population in our area. Fred Trost and his potato field hunting in crystal falls spawned a mass exodus. Suddenly you no longer saw only those in your hunting party all week but you began running into people all over the place... 4 wheelers and easy access to logging roads aggrevated the situation.... you might as well have been hunting roscommon on state land... If it was brown it was down... Once the deer numbes began to fall dramatically and bucks all but dried up.. either from overhunting or hard winters the hunter numbers plummeted... i can again hunt an entire season and see no one but those in our party or our neighbors now and again.

Now, Today, tack on the wolf issue and a couple of our neighbors driving all over gods creation on their 4 wheelers at all hours of the day and the deer are as skittish as a beaten dog. the bucks are out of sight long before opening day ever arrives... i generally see a good number of decent deer during bow season when the woods have not been disturbed... what this tells me is that the deer population has changed dramatically... the population may be down but that happens... deer have come to know that ATV's and smelly hunters mean danger and they don't put up with that crap anymore... they've been trained and they disappear... Come 3rd day of firearm i find myself leaving almost 2 hours before light (On foot) to get to "good" deer territory where i might have a chance at something other than spikes or baldies. Come fall, just cause you dont see them doesn't mean they don't exist...

guess it all boils down to the ability to manage QDM and the ability to not disturb your hunting area... if you and those around you, even on land open to the public, partake and work together you can make it work but it isn't going to happen overnight.... we are still trying to recover from the early 90's... weed out the trash and let the promising ones go. If you have to, take a doe for meat. But all it takes is one bad apple (neighbor) to spoil the bucket...

JR

jaroot;
You must be a carpenter, You hit the nail right on the head, Several times. I never saw the Fred Trost show on the potato fields but have seen first hand what goes on down there. Four wheelers seem to be the only way to hunt anymore for some. I really hate it when you get up and leave at 5;30 and walk 2 or 3 miles to your stand that nobody else knows about only to have somebody go driving by on a four wheeler at daybreak. I don't mind people using bait either, But some really go overboard on this one. I see whole truck loads of cabbage and beets going into the woods right before season. People start feeding the deer and leave a truck load of food behind when they leave and the deer are used to the feed being there. All the sudden it is middle of winter and the deer are there and no food. They got used to it being there and now it is not and they are in a bad fix. Rest of the deer migrated and they stayed= dead deer. qdm may work on private land but deer know no boundaries. Several times I have seen a nice buck during bow season and let him go so my sons can have a chance in gun season, Only to find out someone shot a nice buck a few miles away to never see "mine" again. I believe there are still some big bucks here. They are just deeper in the bush. Isn't it great to still have a place where there is such vast unpopulated areas? I can go out my back door and walk due west for atleast 30 miles before coming accross a mapped road and that would be the Amasa truck trail, East would be about the same but with alot of logging roads and a few camps. Problem is if you get lost, You might not make it. Happens alot up here. Last summer an elderly lady got lost picking berries and she was not found for a few weeks. She had passed away from exposure. Used to worry about my sons when growing up. I have been "confused" many a time and slept in the woods more than once too. Get on a track and lose track of time and all the sudden it is dark. Make camp and enjoy it. I always found the biggest inconvenience is not being able to brush my teeth when I get up. On a brighter note I hear the ice fishing is really good on teal lake. Time to put away the hunting stuff for a while and get out the fishing stuff. Ain't life great. Hope the deer will come back, I am sure they will. Probably just a cycle. God Bless all, I'm going fishing. Walleye supper sounds good.

There are big bucks in the UP. During the firearm season of 1996, I downed a 9 pt, 16 inch spread, 190 lb dressed deer in the porcupine mountains. Unfortuneately for me, the day before, I missed a mammoth of a buck from about 70 yards due to my scope being bumped enough to throw it off...which resulted in my going to the range to sight my gun in again...It was a foot high and right at 50 yards...I still have nightmares about that monster...I didn't have enough time to count antlers, but it was a minimum of 8 pts and the spread was easily in excess of 20 inches...probably weighed about 250-275 live also...whoever shot him, if anyone, was a happy hunter...

I believe one of the states (or university?) did a study about how far hunters went from a roadway and had them wear GPS units. If I remember correctly, all stayed within a half mile of a road. So with all the large tracts of land in the UP, there's no doubt in my mind there are a lot of big bucks up in there. Just gotta get in and find them. Course then you gotta drag it out....

I live in the northern lower. We have a pretty healthy herd due to the huge acreage of corn, soy and plentious grazing to boot. I'll just mention that we are going to begin a serious reduction in the number of does on our hunting land (about 40acr or so). Tonite I'm looking out my door and counted about 40 deer but they bolted before I could accurately count. So we arent sitting too bad here. I wanted to share with you what some guys are doing in our area to produce "quality" deer. One guy has 20acres fenced in. He took heavy equip and put a 4-5ft trench at the base of the fence on the inside. Can you say T-R-A-P??

The deer jump the fence and dont go out. This guy shot 2 10pt'ers this year on his combo. His family has a blast. From what I heard the DNR cant do a thing about even though they know about it.

I'm reading your posts and grieving with you over the senseless loss of deer taken for "nuisance". I dont think any of the farmers do that here...not sure they can. Our farmers will let them feed and get their revenge shortly after corn harvest.


Perferator

I just overheard something on television to the effect that someone hit a large cat last November and gave residual hair from the vehicle to the DNR for analysis. The DNR has admitted it was cougar hair, but they say it does not prove that there is a breeding population in the U.P. This must have been a transient or possibly a vacationing cougar from out west.

Yooper,
Have you seen the new Woods-N-Water issue? It has an interview with the new DNR director. There's some interesting views QDM, the management of MI's deer herd and as she put it they are "well managed" and cougars. They believe they are here but want to confirm there's a breeding population. With all the sightings, how else did they get here? Migrate with the birds? Heck, a guy about 6 miles from my parents in the northern LP got a pic of one on a game camera they put in the local paper. I thought about writing a letter to her in reply but don't know if I will. Just curious if you saw it.

M1Garand
No, I haven't seen the interview, I'll try to check it out. I have to wonder what changes will be implemented to allow for cougar predation. Thanks for the heads-up!

Yooper,
Have you seen the new Woods-N-Water issue? It has an interview with the new DNR director. There's some interesting views QDM, the management of MI's deer herd and as she put it they are "well managed" and cougars. They believe they are here but want to confirm there's a breeding population. With all the sightings, how else did they get here? Migrate with the birds? Heck, a guy about 6 miles from my parents in the northern LP got a pic of one on a game camera they put in the local paper. I thought about writing a letter to her in reply but don't know if I will. Just curious if you saw it.

Duh.... gotta catch them on film, "in the act," for it to be a breeding population :D

Someone get out the camera, valentine's day is around the corner... :p

Not only in the act on film, but near a recognizable landmark or road mileage sign!

DNR would still deny it!! 2 years ago I came home to find a black bear cub in my sauna, Cops and dnr laughed, Little guy stayed here all summer and wandered off when it got cold. Sure his mom was killed. He was really neat. Kids named him fairchild. He was really tame till you gave him raw meat. Turned mean then. Lots of good memories and a few pics to remember him by. Maybe I can find a cougar kit and make a pet out of him. DNR would say it was a big housecat. Seen that piece on Buck La Vasser a while back about cats in UP. Kind of funny how they think we have 28 inch tall 80 pound housecats here. Maybe in Texas (he he) but not here.

My brother has found good sets of cougar tracks just south of Mackinaw City area. Not only DNR are skeptical of his find, but also many civilians. And now look at the wolf issue. For years the DNR wouldnt even acknowledge a population of wolves here in the northern lower...until one was taken by trap and another following that. The one taken by the trapper was radio collered in Engadine area. So I wonder how the thing crossed over?? Maybe he had bridge fare.

We got wolves. We got cougar. Now the DNR is organizing a group to do a track/sign survey on wolves to determine their numbers.

Both these critters have been in our area for decades.




Perferator

I remember as a kid traveling in the northern lower for vacations probably a good 25 years ago and remember seeing what looked like a wolf/ large coyote run across the road. My dad will swear it was a wolf. I was really too young to remember it accurately. And now this spring a trapper gets one in the northern lower and now they've deemed they've migrated. I kinda think they've been there a lot longer than they think. Also where did they supposedly migrate from? They didn't swim across the straights and theres no other way there except for up from the south. I highly doubt they took the freeway through chicago around lake michigan and up to the northern lower.

The straights of Mackinaw do occasionally freeze over. That can clearly explain how they got to the L.P.

Wolves have also been re-established on purpose in WI. This is another possibility for wolves into the U.P. Or at least an increase in their numbers over the last several years.

Although I don't doubt wolves have always been native to the U.P.

As far as cougars. I sincerely believe they are in the U.P. I also believe that they are breeding as there are just too many reports spread over too many years over a way too wide an area to be the same cat!

How they got there is a bit of a mystery to me as I'm not so sure these were native to the upper Midwest. That is why they call them Mountain Lions. I don't think they got their name from being native to Iron Mountain!

I suppose one could cross if the straights freeze, don't know how often that is. The mountain lion was native to MI and the midwest. I believe the last recorded one shot here was around 1902 or somewhere in that ballpark. I think they were still here just low numbers so they assumed they were gone.

Backwoodswalker,

I am a fudge sucking troll from an Island in the Detroit River (No not Belle Isle). I am almost a Yooper. I have a camp in Michigamme up the grade at the Dishno. Great area and just full of critters to watch and hunt. The fishing is great also. We are looking for a place to retire up there. Grand Marais is one spot we have looked at, also Munising area. My wife’s family had a camp just south of Munising for many years.

I have Topo software for my laptop and we like to follow the back roads and trails in the truck and explore.My wife is in her glory giving me directions. It is truly God’s Country.

I would like to keep in touch to trade fish stories (lies) and hunting stories (bigger lies) and get to advance my local knowledge.


Kevin 2

[Kevin;
If you got a camp up on the Pesheeki on Dishno Rd. You are in the best country the U.P has to offer. That is beautiful country up there. Have you been to Grand Marais or Munising lately? Pretty commercialised over there. I really like it up around Dishno and AAA trail, Dodge city and of course the Mc Cormick wilderness area. If you want to retire up here i would consider expanding the camp you already have. You can take A34 right accross to Lanse to shop and the little stores around Michigamme are some of the friendliest up here. Only bad part is SNOW. We are getting hammered right now. Up to 2 feet today, tonight and tomorrow. You get used to it though. 4 wheel drive is a neccessity, Not a luxury. A snowmachine is the same. You keep your freezer full and cupboards full in the winter. i think you have a great spot there. You would be welcomed by all up here. Nobody considers the lower people trolls anymore. Once you move up here you are a "transplant" anyway.

Backwoodswalker,

I noticed you did not eliminate the “Fudge Sucking” part

If you are familiar with the area, when you turn on to Dishno Rd. just past the Mead staging area where the road turns to follow the creek. That is the southwestern part of my land, from the peninsula to just east of the big rock. Most of my property is north of the creek. We have 45 acres.

My wife and I spent four years just driving around the U.P. looking for land. We used my laptop, a GPS antenna and Topo USA to navigate while we cruised the back roads and two tracks from the bridge to Whitefish Point then west to Eagle River to Hurley to Crystal Falls and back again. You are correct this area is the best. I have been to Grand Marais it is some what built up but the view is something. Munising is very commercial. My wife likes the area though Ishpeming and Marquette should be sufficient to sustain her shopping gene.

With a Dunham’s and Gander Mountain I should be able to meet my needs. Is there any good local sports shops / gunsmiths? I would rather deal with the local establishments. How about gun clubs / shooting ranges? If I had more land I would set one up myself but I do not want to shooting were I hunt. I load my own and shoot a lot 100 to 200 rounds a week.

I have a RAM 2500 Quad Cab 4X4 Diesel. It gets around OK. Snow I like it and my wife likes to play in it also. I don’t know if I want sleds. I have been looking at the Argo with tracks. Do you know any one that has any experience with them? I could use it year around instead of snowmobiles and 4X4’s with all the work of putting them up for half of the year. I have heard that you cannot take it on the snowmobile trails it does not have skies on the front or some thing like that. I would have to get an ORV and Boat sticker for it. I guess the State does not know what to call it so they call it an ORV and a power boat why pay once when you can pay two times.

After reading the other posts I have to comment on the Cougar. I read that there is DNA from the auto accident that proves they are there. I also have seen tracks on the northeast end of my place that could be from a large cat. They looked too large for a bobcat.


Kevin 2

Kevin;
I just overlooked the "fudge sucking" part. I do not think bad of anyone. In Ishpeming there is wilderness sports, When you get to know them they are the best sporting goods store around. Gander mountain is very expensive and think they know it all. There are lots of gun clubs up here. Again I would reccomend the one in Ishpeming. A good bunch of guys. They do about all the shooting sports there. I would look into stick building a camp or move in a single wide trailer on your property on Disno. I spen alot of time up in there in the summer. Do some snowshoeing up there too. I have seen moose just south of there on a couple occasions and southwest by Wolf Lake I have seen quite a few. We drive our pickups on the snow trails in the summer. Never had any problem with anybody. Don't hot rod around on them and you will be o.k. I just pick up a cheap 4X4 and drive it out. Trails are hard on them. there are endless trails up here. I just fill up my tank, Take some food and a few extras and go. They all come out somewhere. Carry a good compass (which is all but useless up here- so much iron in ground). The sights are amazing. There used to be a Argo dealer here in Republic, He went under. Nobody can afford stuff like that up here. Buy you a good 4 wheeler, A good Ski doo Tundra and a good truck with a good winch and have fun. The four wheeler I will not advise on but I like red. No snowmobile can match the tundra for trail and woods work. They are light and a long track, will go about anywhere. We see them all. They zip by us on the straits but we usually find them digging out in a drift up ahead. As for your wifes needs. There is walmart plus alot of other shopping stores in Marquette. She can find anything she wants there. Iron Mountain has alot of stores too. Life is alot different than down there. I know I used to haul steel into Detroit on a regular basis. Lived in Decatur for quite a few years. If you come up here with an open mind and a kind heart you will be fine. People help each other up here, They have to. Be friendly and help others and you will be accepted in. don't brag about how rich you are or how much you got is the biggest thing. People here have nothing but what is needed to get by. Hard life, But I would not trade it for nothing. I could move back down state and go back to 65000 plus a year job. But I like my 28000 and being happy. My kids are happier and my wife is happier.. Biggest word of advice--- Learn to live with mosquitoes!!!! They are bad. Hop you and your family move up some time. If you come up this way, drop me a note I would like to meet you. Show you some of the sights I know about. God Bless Steve

Now that's the spirit of the UP!


Kevin, no disputing the existence of the cougar in michigan...lower where I am or the Upper....the DNR just disputes whether they are a breeding population as opposed to travelling in from other states or released by disillusioned pet owners.


Hey, spring is around the corner guys!



Perferator

Steve,

I was joking about the "fudge sucking" part :D I use a word processor for longer reply's to correct my sppellingg ;) . For some reason the smilies will not install after pasting it.

I will have to stop in at Wilderness Sports in Ishpeming my wife and I like that town, nice people. The Jasper Ridge Brew Pub makes a good stout always have a good time there.

GM is very expensive but in a pinch they will do.

I dont hot rod on the trails. It is hard on the rig I just let the truck idle in second gear and cruse. I get 22 m/gal doing that and can see the area.

You are not the first one to suggest the Tundra I have been told it will cut trail the hot rod sleds are OK for groomed trails but just bury them self in fresh snow. Thanks.

I dont like the 4X4's they may be fun but they tear up the terain. With the wife and kids it seams that 1 Argo instead of 2 to 4 sleds and 4X4's would be cheaper. I would also use it for maintaing the place maintaing trails cutting lumber and hauling fire wood. They are very light on the ground and would not tear things up. 20 mph is more than fast enought for me in the woods.

My wife has already checked out all the shopping posibilites :eek:

You are correct life is different up there that is why we like it so much. I wont have to worry about braging about how rich I am unless I win the Lotto :D

Mosquitoes??? you have Moequitoes up there :D :D :D .???

Next time I get up I will drop you a line.

Perferator,

I cant see pet cougars being all over in the wilderness. as far as travelling in from other states. That would seem to prove that they were breading wild animals to my way of thinking. I think the DNR does not want to spend the time and money on managing them. It may also bring the Federal Goverment in with manditory rules and expense. That could be a big pain. Like the wolf's.

God Bless,
Kevin 2

...So much state and cfr property up here you could never see it all. CFR is for people and companies who own alot of property, They can open it up to public to hunt fish camp and cut dead firewood on...

Sorry to get in on this thread so late. I manage industrial timberlands in the Western UP. I would like to clear up the common misconception above.

Enrollment of private lands in Michigans CFR/CFA program requires that the landowner leave the property open for public _Hunting_ and _Fishing_. That's all it it requires.

The landowner does not have to allow vehicular access (roads can be gated) or public access for any use beyond hunting and fishing (camping, hiking, berry picking, firewood gathering, etc). In fact, depending on which ownership it is, they may take great exception to your cutting dead firewood there without a permit to do so.

-na

South of me there are some larger farms and as eagleye said they get crop damage permits. Right there is on thing I would do away with if I could. It really makes me sick to see those guys kill deer like they do. They give them book of 100 permits or more and they have "parties" shooting them. They shoot them at night or day, spring, summer, and fall. That really makes me sick. If they really have this problem, why not let hunters go in and thin them out?

Public hunters aren't effective in removing significant numbers of deer in a given area. I manage industrial timberland and we have a huge problem with deer browse in hardwood regeneration in southern Iron County.

We haven't resorted to crop damage permits yet but last year we did get 100 extra doe permits and we let the Tall Pines in Amasa sell as many as they wanted. I think only about 40 sold and less than a third of those were actually filled.

Personally, I prefer the wolves over the hunting public for effective deer (and beaver) control. They do a better job of keeping the deer numbers in check and they don't cause any damage to my woods roads in the process.

-na

[QUOTE=Nick Adams]Public hunters aren't effective in removing significant numbers of deer in a given area. I manage industrial timberland and we have a huge problem with deer browse in hardwood regeneration in southern Iron County.

We haven't resorted to crop damage permits yet but last year we did get 100 extra doe permits and we let the Tall Pines in Amasa sell as many as they wanted. I think only about 40 sold and less than a third of those were actually filled.

Personally, I prefer the wolves over the hunting public for effective deer (and beaver) control. They do a better job of keeping the deer numbers in check and they don't cause any damage to my woods roads in the process.

Nick;
I understand the problem with deer browse in regeneration areas. Happens up here too. Really don't know how to handle that problem. Do you think that those 100 doe permits would do any good? Are all the animals browsing there doe's? If they had killed 100 doe's what do you think that would have done to the deer population in that area over a period of 5 years? Far less breeding animals means far less deer period. I wish I know the answer to this problem. I don't understand what you mean when you say "we did get 100 extra doe permits and let Tall Pines sell them" Did the state put these up for general sale or did the company get them and sell them? Don't matter, I don't want to know. I don't mind wolves keeping the numbers down but I would rather see some of these animals being used for food for the people who need it. Guess the bottom line is deer have to eat just like we do. And like us they go where the food is. I see some of the paper companies are closing down alot of thier properties to public hunting lately. Wonder why? Seems like they would not care if people hunted them. That will cost them quite abit of money in the end as once closed it will have to be taken off CFA list and no more 1.00 per acre taxes. I understand the damage some people do to woods roads too. Spring break up is coming and some people just have to go "four wheeling" and the woods roads pay. Over here usually by deer season the roads are pretty firm if not frozen. I always remember what my grandad said one time at deer camp. "We used to have alot of really nice big trees up here and lots of really big deer too, Along came man and cut down all the big trees and the big deer left, Now all we have is a bunch of little trees and little deer too. Makes you wonder". I know what he means. God Bless

Nick:
You are right about cfa/cfr property. It is open for hunting and fishing only. But most of the land around here owned by paper companies is pretty much open for camping and if you call they will give you permission to cut downed trees for firewood. I should not have worded that the way I did in a previous post. Sorry about that. Steve

If they had killed 100 doe's what do you think that would have done to the deer population in that area over a period of 5 years? Far less breeding animals means far less deer period.

Where we have deer browse problems (that portion of Iron County south of Paint River), 'far less deer period' is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "we did get 100 extra doe permits and let Tall Pines sell them" Did the state put these up for general sale or did the company get them and sell them?

The state changed the rules with respect to doe permits on CFA land in 2004. Prior to 2004 CFA was considered private land for the purpose of doe permit allocations and it was fairly easy to get them over-the-counter. Back when the state required a tax ID for private land doe permits we handed ID's out to anyone who asked for one.

In 2004 the state reclassified CFA lands as public lands with respect to obtaining doe permits. It suddenly became much harder to get them. We asked for and received the right to purchase an additional 100 doe permits (do they call that a Block Permit?) for use on company lands. Rather than used them ourselves or sell them to the public ourselves we farmed out the selling of them to the Tall Pines. In other words, the State gave us the right to purchase 100 extra doe tags and we passed on that right to the general public.

I see some of the paper companies are closing down alot of thier properties to public hunting lately. Wonder why? Seems like they would not care if people hunted them.

I've seen more restrictions on things like camping, more gated woods roads, some real estate sales (where lands are withdrawn from CFA, then posted) and some rare cases where company lands are withdrawn from CFA and put under a hunting lease, but none of the lands currently enrolled in CFA should be posted against hunting. If they are I suggest you contact your local CO.

We (and, to my knowledge, every other idustrial timberland manager in the UP) welcome public hunting on our ownerships. We just wish you guys would shoot more deer (and go easier on our road systems).

I always remember what my grandad said one time at deer camp. "We used to have alot of really nice big trees up here and lots of really big deer too, Along came man and cut down all the big trees and the big deer left, Now all we have is a bunch of little trees and little deer too. Makes you wonder".

The Porcupine Mountain State Wilderness Area, the Sylvania Tract, the McCormick Tract and other large swaths of the Ottawa National Forest still have a lot of really nice big trees. Witch Lake doesn't. If your grandad was right, maybe you're just looking in the wrong place for big deer? ;-)

-na

It is a good thing to have land open to public hunting and fishing. I do not think anybody would say anything about hiking and picking beries on thier woodlot either. If you are talking about south of Paint over by Crystal Falls, Yep there is a real problem over there with deer. Seems to be a area they really like, Stay year round. I know there are problems in some places with too many deer and not enough in others up here. I know deer numbers need thinned where you are talking about, I just wish there was a way to move them from there to around Champion or Ely township where there are way fewer. I hate to see any animal wasted. Remember a couple years ago they brought in police "sharpshooters" to get rid of some deer in the city of Crystal Falls. Heard that cost around 1500 per deer. What a waste of money. There are some big deer here around Witch lake yet. Just way back in the cedar swamps now. The Mc Cormick tract is a beautiful place. Walked most every inch of that area up there in my lifetime, From Champion north to Dodge City to Big Bay back to Marquette. Beautiful land. I kind of thought you were talking about block permits. I kind of feel that if the owners of property no longer wants to allow hunting on it, That is up to them, It is thiers. I would never call a CO about something like that. I believe in live and let live, Kind of none of my business. Plenty of other places to hunt. I hardly ever hear or see any big deer being taken any more. Look at the pics of the old buck poles up here from 30 years ago and then today. Big difference. I know I used to see alot more big bucks 20 years ago than now. Grandad had a camp up by dynamite hill in Lanse, Used to be some nice deer up there too. But like Grandad they are no longer with us. Maybe he took them with him (he he). I used to belive the talk about too many deer around is why they are smaller, Now I don't buy that one. The population is way down from years past. In the 40's and 50's was the hey day for big deer up her according to the old timers. They tell about how you could sit in one spot and see 20 or more deer every morning. Not any more and I seen the pics of the deer taken, Big. Just in my 42 years of life I can see the difference in not just deer but all animals. Rabbits are slowly coming back as well as beaver. Partridge has not been good for awhile now.. One thing I will say though, Look for a spot where the woods has been clearcut and for the first few years after there is usually good deer hunting there. And after that the new growth usually holds some good pat and bunny's too. So there is good that comes from forest harvesting. If your problem with deer keeps up into this fall I would be happy to come over and take 3 does for my freezer in November. I take 3 deer every year, Along with 1 steer and 3 hogs that makes up our yearly meat allowance. I wish you luck with your problem, God Bless Steve

I hardly ever hear or see any big deer being taken any more. Look at the pics of the old buck poles up here from 30 years ago and then today. Big difference.

Those were all 'defective' deer. They were large targets and thin skinned. People shot them with iron-sighted rifles in puny little cartridges like 30-30, 25-35 and 30-40 Krag. Where is the challenge in that?

Deer are a lot tougher now-days. I know guys that go out every year with high-power scope sighted rifles chambered in things like 30-06, 7mm Mag and 300 Win Mag and still don't recover anything to put on the buck pole.

Last year a guy over the ridge from me, hunting over a bait pile, shot a buck 8 times over a twenty minute period before he recovered it. He was only using a 308 Win. Evidently, not enough gun.

So, while the old timers may very well have had those large, soft target deer to shoot at, their buck pole exploits are really very modest in comparison to what the deer hunter achieves when stringing up one of the small target, armor plated deer of today. ;-)

-na

so to bring this back to the top.... how are the deer lookin for this falls hunt.... My aunt and uncle just returned from our place in Iron River / Sunset Lake area and told me... Lot of deer... nothing for horns... pretty quiet... i'm packed and ready for spending some quality time across the bridge next month... life's been hectic... bowhunting has suffered and i am behind the 8 ball...

BTW, Nick... if you folks are gating off logging roads... i owe you a big thank you.. because over the past 2 or 3 years i've actually been able to hunt in peace once again...

Hey Yoopers.....any wild hogs up there? Was wondering if the bunch that got out of the game ranch on the Abbaye by L'Anse have been sighted lately?

We've got a bunch of them down here already...and growing.