I'm new to the forum and hope to get some help here.

I want my first BP cart rifle and would like any and all input on style, cartridge, bullets, loads, barrel length, rifling twist, sights, ect.

Primary use will be for organized target shooting but I will also want to hunt with this one too. I'm thinking 45-xxx ir 50-xxx but I'm open to all input. Rifle will be custom built so the table is open.

I've never had the opportunity to attend or shoot at an organized BP cart rifle shoot so I'd like to know where I can find out all about this aspect as well, only thing I found so far was a weight limit on the rifles.

Thanks for any help & input.
Mark Kw

I'm new to the forum and hope to get some help here.

I want my first BP cart rifle and would like any and all input on style, cartridge, bullets, loads, barrel length, rifling twist, sights, ect.

Primary use will be for organized target shooting but I will also want to hunt with this one too. I'm thinking 45-xxx ir 50-xxx but I'm open to all input. Rifle will be custom built so the table is open.

I've never had the opportunity to attend or shoot at an organized BP cart rifle shoot so I'd like to know where I can find out all about this aspect as well, only thing I found so far was a weight limit on the rifles.

Thanks for any help & input.
Mark Kw

Decide what action you want to use...Sharps, Winchester, Remington, or one of the Ballards. Nown of them are dirt cheap, but good rollers (Rem.) are probably the least expensive of the group....some reductioin of the giant hammer really helps.

Most of the target/steel critter folks seem to be going with as small a case as they can for the reduction in recoil (these matchs take a lot of shooting, and shooter fatigue is a factor). PROBABLY the 40's are the best compromise, but for hunting I'd be much happier with a .45. But if you like the 50's, no reason they can't shoot very well...they just pound you and by round 40 or 50 you woin't be shooting as well as you could with less recoil. (Have one buddy that claims it's more about sensory-overload, not the physical results of recoil, but that you senses just give up and your fine control goes away with them).

IFn shooting just black powder, not really all that much to be gained going past the 45/100 size or 50/100 (but brass cost and consistant quality favors the 45)...45/70 will do, the only real fault is that it's "common" and most custom builders want something a bit more unique (just as custom centerfire rifle builders hardly ever build just a plain 30-06).

Given your choices, think I'd plan out the action, barrel stylke and maker, stock, meatl work, finish, and sight choices and leave the caliber choice to last.
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I like Remingtons, and when I got the BP cartridge bug, took a hard look at the custom makers and the reporduction rifles offered. Considering the $, decided to hunt up originals in mecahnically good shape but non-collectors status, and have them slightly reworked and finished. Came out about the same $ spent but it makes me happier.

Now the Rollers have a HEAVY hammer fall...can get the triggers reasonable, but no where near a good set trigger (although that are some custom set triggers being made for the Roller...are pricy). The smaller lighter hammer style used in the latter versions of their sporting rifles isn't as bad...the big military hammers are noticable (with the New York Contract rifles perhaps being the worst offenders).

So tally up the $ you intend spending and then take a looks at what originals would cost...sometimes can find an original with some small modification or restocking that puts it out of the hard-core collectors market.

Upon talking with the builder, the action will probably be a Winchester highwall attached to a 34" octagon barrel. He's suggesting the 45-110 as the caliber choice.

I was considering going with the 45-70 thinking it would be more economical for match shooting but then I thought I'll be lucky to get to one match a year so why worry about the cost of brass.

The weight limit I found said 12 pounds 2 ounces and I think that's going to soak up a good portion of the recoil. I hunting now with a 50 flintlock using a 320 Lee REAL bullet over 120 grains of 2F in a rifle that's 6 pounds. I put about 40 of these down range off the bench and another 20 free hand before it started bothering me. I have carpal tunnel and nerve damage in both arms, sometimes this helps because I get so used to functioning with the interior pain that things like recoild from a gun is masked to being almost non-existant. Bad side is I loose strength in both and get the shakes now and then which puts an immediate stop to shooting.

I did consider an original, also considered a cheap H&R break open too. The builder is a good friend and has gone out of his way to help us out with other than gun things of great importance. Thus, while I really can't justify purchasing this rifle for the little bit I'm going to use it .... nor do I really have the money to spend on it, it's one of those things that while I don't have to do it, I want to do it. I've been trying to get to a flintlock shoot for the last two years and it never fails that I either have to work that weekend or there is family business to attend to.

With that in mind, where can I find the best prices on brass and reloading dies for the 45-110?

Mark,

If your going custom I don't think you can beat the Shiloh Sharps rifles.whole line of options and calibers to choose from. As for caliber you may want to consider that 45-70, It is by far the easiest to work up loads for and components are readily available. A great source for components is Buffalo Arms you can check out their web site. The 45-110 is a great cartridge but difficult to load for if you have no BPCR experience. Fouling issues and so forth. It also may not be that comfortable to shoot for a whole match. Approx. 70 rounds at the most. Another source of info for this sport is WWW.BPCR.NET they have a lot of info on their home page.I see your from NE PA as I am. I'm located in the Dallas area where abouts are you? Hope this is helpful.
Chaz

Chaz,

I'll definitely check the link. I talked to the builder again yesterday who suggested 38-55 or 40-65 for target but I also want to hunt with this one to which the discussion went back to the 45-110. Not that either 38 or 40 would undoubtedly handle anything that needs to be sent to the great beyond and put in my freezer but distance is quite limited. (Note: I'm going off research I've done in books and on-line, testing data, feedback from those who've hunted with BP CR's, ect only shooting BP loads) The 45-70 gets a high standing at 150 to 200 yds as a practical hunting distance while the 45-110 has blessings to the 300 yard mark. I figured the 110 could be down-loaded for match shooting and loaded to full power for hunting.

As the day went on, I thought about how many shots I took on game that exceeded 200 yds. Then I thought about what the game was and more importantly where it was. What I've come up with is that the majority of game shots I've taken have been within 150 yds while only a few have gone beyond 150 and fewer yet that have gone over 200. That's when I started thinking "why is it you need a 45-110"?

I'm going to focus on the 45-70 as of right now. Definitely more economical to shoot at least. $32/100 for brass as opposed to $280/100 for 45-110.

Only BP cart's I've loaded were 255 grain in the 45LC and some blanks for a guy in 38 spl. & 12ga. I have done a fair amount of reloading but all in smokeless. I'd be real interested in learning from someone first hand too. I'm down the road a bit in Drums, right where I-80 & SR-309 cross or just east of I-80/81 split. Heading out for deer today but will be around all day tomorrow 570.233.2240

Chaz,

I'll definitely check the link. I talked to the builder again yesterday who suggested 38-55 or 40-65 for target but I also want to hunt with this one to which the discussion went back to the 45-110. Not that either 38 or 40 would undoubtedly handle anything that needs to be sent to the great beyond and put in my freezer but distance is quite limited. (Note: I'm going off research I've done in books and on-line, testing data, feedback from those who've hunted with BP CR's, ect only shooting BP loads) The 45-70 gets a high standing at 150 to 200 yds as a practical hunting distance while the 45-110 has blessings to the 300 yard mark. I figured the 110 could be down-loaded for match shooting and loaded to full power for hunting.

As the day went on, I thought about how many shots I took on game that exceeded 200 yds. Then I thought about what the game was and more importantly where it was. What I've come up with is that the majority of game shots I've taken have been within 150 yds while only a few have gone beyond 150 and fewer yet that have gone over 200. That's when I started thinking "why is it you need a 45-110"?

I'm going to focus on the 45-70 as of right now. Definitely more economical to shoot at least. $32/100 for brass as opposed to $280/100 for 45-110.

Only BP cart's I've loaded were 255 grain in the 45LC and some blanks for a guy in 38 spl. & 12ga. I have done a fair amount of reloading but all in smokeless. I'd be real interested in learning from someone first hand too. I'm down the road a bit in Drums, right where I-80 & SR-309 cross or just east of I-80/81 split. Heading out for deer today but will be around all day tomorrow 570.233.2240

Mark,
Reloading the BP cartridge has some differences.to load down a cartridge you would have to use a filler such as cornmeal or something similar. Might I suggest prior to your purchase of the rifle you get the book "the BP Cartridge reloading Primer" By Mike Venturino & Steve Garbe. It's a very informative book. There are two Places I know you can pick One up, Dixon's Muzzleloader Shop in Kempton Pa. Which is off 309 south to I believe 143 to 737 about 10 miles this side of Allentown. Weird hours so call first. Or you can go online and get one from Buffalo Arms, Call them and order it and explain that you are new to BPCR and they'll answer just about all your Questions very knowledgeable people Dave Gullo (owner) is a world champion shooter. They will have any Item including rifles you could possibly need for this sport, it's like a giant toy store. If there is anything I could do to help you out send me a line Lonizardus@epix.net

HAve seen several of the big cases (45-100 and up) give excellent accuracy with full power loads...they don't seem to do as well with reduced loads. Think they could, but perhaps their owners haven't spent the loading bench time getting them there.

But then again, perhaps not...is a lot of volume and adding one more variable (the filler) does complicate getting fine accuracy.

Kind of a clash in technology, but they will sometimes be found with a modern laser range finder and their period BP rifles when out hunting. At the range, when you KNOW the target is 300 yards out, and not 260yards or 335yards, isn't too hard to dial in your sight setting and get a hit....but in the field a long range estimation error of 30 or 40yards is going to make a difference (and 349 yards looks a lot like 267yards).

Personally, I just don't shoot game far away with iron and a BP rifle, am content to live within a shorter yardage limit for game but will (at known ranges) shoot paper at diatances...waht the devil, given a couple of ranging shots to get the setting, will shoot paper at unknown long ranges, but walking the impact up to the target is hadly going to work in the deer fields.

Considering that philsophy, the 45/70 is probably the better compromise. As for cost, considering the $ tied up in the rifle, the cost of cases seems minor.

The little cases (in BP terms) like the 38/55 and 40/65 are fine match lrounds, and do pretty well on whitetail deer...but an 11pound "small bore" seems kind of a waste as a hunting rifle.

Got to admit, there is a lot of appeal to sliding in one of the big cases and lobbing bullets of over 500gr. downrage.

Understood accurate ranging is a must with these and a range finder is definitely on my aquisition list. When hunting, I try to pre-range my shots before I see game by picking land marks and using them as a reference point.

Just because the gun is custom does not mean I have the cash flow to justify it even at the considerably reduced "at cost" price my friend is doing it for but what the heck, only live once! The more I think about it, the more it makes sense no only from the cost standpoint but more so from the practical and logical standpoint to go with the 45-70. I more than likely would pass on a game shot in excess of 200 yds anyway based on ethics. Too easy to miscalculate, flinch or whatever and have an animal go off wounded and not be recovered if the shot is not perfectly placed. There's always tomorrow to continue the hunt.

The 45-70 seems much more reasonable for target as well since if I do down-load them, there is less case space to fill which means I can probably use a fiber filler wad making loading faster and easier but also more consistent too. First thing I'm going to do is get the book and read it twice or three times just to make sure I don't miss anything.

I'm not striving to be a professional target shooter, just want to try it and most importantly have some fun with the option of winning once in a while as a bonus. Thanks, great info!

Mark:

After a lifetime of using standard factory produced rifles, when I became involved in black powder cartridges I decided to treat myself to a custom rifle. My choice was the 1877 Sharps manufactured by the Axtell Rifle Co, www.riflesmith.com. My son and I met Carmen Axtell and her staff at the Baltimore Gun Show, we liked them, and their sample rifles. We now both have rifles in 40-70SS. It's a good idea to be able to handle rifles before you buy, especially to determine your best length of pull. The distance from your eye to the disk on the tang sight is important. If this is wrong you can't shoot well and changes will be difficult and expensive. Don't assume that the length of pull will be the same as your favorite bolt action rifle. I've kinda gone overboard and ordered another rifle in 45-90 which is almost ready to ship. Lead time is 10 to 12 months. There are three manufacturers of Sharps rifles in the US and they are all located in Montana. C. Sharps and Shiloh make the 1874 model.

For a beginner in black powder cartridge shooting it's hard to beat the 45-70. For all around use that involves hunting, the 45-90 is better. When you get to the 45-100, 45-110, and the 45-120 you get into more expensive brass and cartridges that are so long that you may have to purchase a new re-loading press. Recoil also becomes excessive. It's my opinion that only black powder should be used in these cases. Experimenting with duplex loads, and smokeless powder with fillers may very well be dangerous. Don't rely on what someone tells you is an OK load, after all it's your eyes and limb that are taking the risk. We started with the 40 caliber which was probably a mistake due to the steeper learning curve. Now however, we love this cartridge.

8iowa, Thanks for the heads-up on LOP measurment. I'm going to try some differnt things today and try to get a good LOP or at least a starting point and possibly add a little to it as it is much easier to take a little off the butt than add some on. After careful consideration I decided on the 45-70 as being best for me since I will more than likely be shooting more target than anything with this rifle and for the hunting distances I can expect to see, it should be more than sufficient. I do foresee going with some other BPCR rounds too.

Mark: A new black powder shooter can't go wrong with a nice 1884 Springfield trapdoor rifle. In my opinion they are underpriced on the collector's market, and if well cared for they will go up in value.

I suggest the 1884 because it has the great Buffington rear sight and has a long throat that can take the heaviest 45-70 bullets. Someone with good eyes can give a good account of themselves on the firing line with this rifle.