What do you guys think about the competition type "seater dies". I'm seeing a good bit of runout on about half of my finished .308 rounds. I can't measure it, but when I roll my finished cartridges they "wobble" pretty badly. I thought my loading practices were pretty good but I'm not so sure any more. I was thinking about buying one of the "Redding" seating dies for my .308 but at $68, is this a smart investment? Do they really reduce bullet runout as advertised?

I'm using a "Redding" FL collet die to resize and deprime. My die is adjusted to just "bump" the shoulder back about .002. I resize about .30 in. of the neck. If I roll the cases before seating the bullets I can't see any obvious "wobble" in the neck area. This leads me to believe the seating process is causing the problem. I always rotate the cartridge 3 or 4 times during the seating process (using a standard plug type seating die) but this dosen't seem to help the finished product. Any thoughts?

Also, do any of you have any tips you could share (stupid question!) with me on how you reduce runout during the reloading process?

Thanks ahead, Fletch

What kind of press are you using? Seater die? Either of the two, or both, could be the source of your problem.

The best press for avoiding run-out, I think, is the Forster Co-Ax. If you take a little time to study the design, you'll see why it's unlike any other press, in that department. Among good standard presses would be the Reddings.

As for dies, what makes the Redding Competition (and Forster Bench Rest, and Forster Ultra Micrometer) seater good is the sleeve/chamber the case resides in during the seating operation. In other seating dies, the case is kind of floating around in space inside. Not good.

A good part of what makes the Redding Competition so expensive is the micrometer top. Whether you need this, or not, is a personal choice. You can get the benefit of the sleeve/chamber for less $$$ if you buy the Forster Bench Rest die.

Good luck.

RSY

I haven't used the Redding dies. Some people really like them.

Anyway.... my thought, after using a bunch of different dies and testing for runout, is that sometimes you just have a bullet profile that's incompatible with the seating stem. So..... this is what I'd do. First, find a round that appears to be perfect with regards to runout, or nearly so. Then, use that round to custom-fit the bullet seating stem. Wax or oil the bullet; put a drop of epoxy on the end of the seating stem, and then reassemble everything in the press and let the epoxy set up. You'll probably want to grease / oil everything that the expoxy shouldn't stick to, as it sometimes run everywhere.

After you get everything separated / cleaned up, then load some more rounds and see if you are getting any improvement.

You may need a case gauge to isolate the problem. The .308 has a fairly short neck, could be hard to see. My .222 loads were crooked, and it turned out that the resizing die was the problem. Here's what I'd try before I bought any new toys. Mark the side of the case, then seat the bullets with the mark in the same position, say 6 o'clock. Roll the cases and see if the wobble and the mark are (can't think of the right word) have the same relationship for each case. Hope you can figure out what I mean.

It could be that your brass is thicker on one side than the other. Old Merrill Martin claimed this caused all sorts of accuracy problems, and you need a case gauge to check that. It may be that your straight rounds are in cases that have uniform walls, and your crooked rounds are loaded in the others. It's easy to rig up a dial indicator and magnetic base to check this. If you can get your hands on one, I'll tell you how to do it.

Bye
Jack

RSY,
I'm using an RCBS Rockchucker press. As it turns out the die is fully in contact with the shellholder at the top of the stroke. Having said that, I'm not convinced, or sure that the die aligns itself exactly the same way every time I screw it into the press you know? I'm using an RCBS precision mic to measure the shoulder setback during the resizing process. As I stated earlier, the .002 I was seeking just happened to be with the die fully engaged into the shellholder. My shellholder is an RCBS standard holder.
That's a good tip on the forester die, I see I could get it for much less and should achieve the same degree of seating alignment.

Mike,
That's a great idea, the epoxy I mean.
I've got 3 great replies to this thread already. I think firstly, I'm going to try to further determine if the problem is coming from the resizing process. I know by "rolling" the resized brass, it's gonna be hard to see any minor neck problems, short neck as Jack mentioned in his reply. I think Jacks idea about indexing the cartridge and tracking it through the whole process may provide some insight here. If I can eliminate the resizing process, I will certainly try the epoxy thing, that's pretty good thinking. This would give you a custom fit at the seater plug, cool.

Jack,
Excellent input, as I stated above, I think the indexing thing you suggested in where I need to start right now and go from there.

Thanks guy's, any additional thoughts are welcome.
Good shooting, Fletch

I just had to go roll some rounds. I am a utility kind of guy that still wants things to be right. I rolled about 10 rounds and the ends don't show any sign of wobble. I use the cheapest equipment and components because I am cheap.

I do full length size and use brass less times than most but as I said I am not very precise with things. It makes me feel you have a component, probably in sizing that is off or has a buildup or something. Possibly the trimmer or inside neck trimmer. I suppose you are a bench shooter and you don't crimp these rounds so it's not the crimp.

How is your MOA? Well that was a dumb question. You thousand yard guys are in the Magic world anyway. My rounds would not be in the same county at 1000 yds.

Good luck with your problem. A sinclair press and fancy seating dies are neet anyway. I think all benchrest guys end up there anyway.

fletchdp
Here's how I avoid the problem.
Yes, I use those 'Competion' dies but I used the standard RCBS dies before.
First step, when I resize is to rotate the case 90 to 120 degrees in between the first full stroke into the die back the case out enough to rotate and push the case back into the die. I decap the case in a prior step with the Lee universal decapping die. When I adjust the neck expanding stem I do the adjusting on the down/removing from die stroke, not the pushing/beginning stroke.
When I seat the bullet, I use a two step process, one for seating and one for crimping. I, again, rotate the case and bullet 90 to 120 degrees during both the seating and the crimping.
And I use a Bonanza Co Ax press.
Jim

fletchdp
Here's how I avoid the problem.
Yes, I use those 'Competion' dies but I used the standard RCBS dies before.
First step, when I resize is to rotate the case 90 to 120 degrees in between the first full stroke into the die back the case out enough to rotate and push the case back into the die. I decap the case in a prior step with the Lee universal decapping die. When I adjust the neck expanding stem I do the adjusting on the down/removing from die stroke, not the pushing/beginning stroke.
When I seat the bullet, I use a two step process, one for seating and one for crimping. I, again, rotate the case and bullet 90 to 120 degrees during both the seating and the crimping.
And I use a Bonanza Co Ax press.
Jim

Jim,
This is interesting, I'm already rotating the cartridge during the bullet seating step but not the resizing step. I think what I have to do is to thoroughly examine my resizing process and see if this is where my trouble is originating.

For clarification, you actually complete the first resizing stroke, then rotate the cartridge and run it through again? Is that right?

Chief,
I'm not a benchrest shooter, I just like my hunting rifles to shoot the best they can shoot. I have 2 sons and we like tinkering with em.

I do own a Remington 700VS in 308W that I like to play with. Right now I'm barely able to keep it under 1 MOA with the 165 grn hunting load I'm shooting. The gun will shoot much better if I seat the bullets out closer to the lands but it won't fit in the magazine, you know how that is!. This is why I think focusing on runout may improve my groups cause I've got so much bullet jump.

I think I'm going to have this rifle rebarreled and bedded this spring. We've got a great benchrest gunsmith here in town that is retired but will work with me.

Good shooting, Fletch

Fletch

Jim,
This is interesting, I'm already rotating the cartridge during the bullet seating step but not the resizing step. I think what I have to do is to thoroughly examine my resizing process and see if this is where my trouble is originating.
For clarification, you actually complete the first resizing stroke, then rotate the cartridge and run it through again? Is that right?

Yes. I'll clarify. I don't pull the expander ball thru the case mouth for the second go.
A few cautions. Since I mostly load cast bullets for 45-70, 405 Winchester and shoot in lever actions, the primers are popped out in a seperate step, then sized, cleaned, trimmed expanded, primed, etc. For the large straight walled cases I polish down the expander of the flaring die, Lyman M die, so the case has a tight hold on the bullet.
For my 375 Whelen I fire form the cases with cast bullets, clean, decap, resize with factory expander, clean, trim to length, flare for cast bullet, etc. On the third cycle I do all of the above and uniform the case neck thickness. The cases seem to last for ever since the pressures are fairly low 30,000 to 45,000 psi/ This also applies to my 30-06 which only shoots cast bullets.
hope this helps.
Jim

Chief,
I'm not a benchrest shooter, I just like my hunting rifles to shoot the best they can shoot. I have 2 sons and we like tinkering with em.

I do own a Remington 700VS in 308W that I like to play with. Right now I'm barely able to keep it under 1 MOA with the 165 grn hunting load I'm shooting. The gun will shoot much better if I seat the bullets out closer to the lands but it won't fit in the magazine, you know how that is!. This is why I think focusing on runout may improve my groups cause I've got so much bullet jump.

I think I'm going to have this rifle rebarreled and bedded this spring. We've got a great benchrest gunsmith here in town that is retired but will work with me.

Good shooting, Fletch[/QUOTE]

Fletch,

Something is deffinitely amiss. You and I shoot for the same reasons it sounds like. That bullet allignment thing has to be something alligned wrong in your process and could be your accuracy problem for sure. This idea is a little nutty but since you are hunting and it is going in a magazine a crimp could solve your problem. May want to try a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

What do you guys think about the competition type "seater dies". I'm seeing a good bit of runout on about half of my finished .308 rounds. I can't measure it, but when I roll my finished cartridges they "wobble" pretty badly. I thought my loading practices were pretty good but I'm not so sure any more. I was thinking about buying one of the "Redding" seating dies for my .308 but at $68, is this a smart investment? Do they really reduce bullet runout as advertised?

I'm using a "Redding" FL collet die to resize and deprime. My die is adjusted to just "bump" the shoulder back about .002. I resize about .30 in. of the neck. If I roll the cases before seating the bullets I can't see any obvious "wobble" in the neck area. This leads me to believe the seating process is causing the problem. I always rotate the cartridge 3 or 4 times during the seating process (using a standard plug type seating die) but this dosen't seem to help the finished product. Any thoughts?

Also, do any of you have any tips you could share (stupid question!) with me on how you reduce runout during the reloading process?

Thanks ahead, Fletch

Fletch: It seems your responses have already more or less answered your original question, but I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth of experience anyway. I began relaoding using the RCBS dies for my RCBS Rockchucker, but I found their stem adjustment system very clucky and hard to use. Switched to the regular Redding dies and found their stem adjustment very accurate and easy to use, plus the resizing dies resized a little more of the case than the RCBS. I nearly always resize the whole case because I shoot mostly lever-action rifles. I bought the far more expensive competition seater dies from Redding and didn't find them worth the time. the Microadjustment stem did make it a tad easier to adjust the length, but not that much. Plus, I didn't find them as consistent as the standard redding seating dies. I went back to buying and using the standard Redding Dies, which I love. Oh, I also experienced no significant degree of runnout or straight seating difference between the two. --MB

Fletch: It seems your responses have already more or less answered your original question, but I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth of experience anyway. I began relaoding using the RCBS dies for my RCBS Rockchucker, but I found their stem adjustment system very clucky and hard to use. Switched to the regular Redding dies and found their stem adjustment very accurate and easy to use, plus the resizing dies resized a little more of the case than the RCBS. I nearly always resize the whole case because I shoot mostly lever-action rifles. I bought the far more expensive competition seater dies from Redding and didn't find them worth the time. the Microadjustment stem did make it a tad easier to adjust the length, but not that much. Plus, I didn't find them as consistent as the standard redding seating dies. I went back to buying and using the standard Redding Dies, which I love. Oh, I also experienced no significant degree of runnout or straight seating difference between the two. --MB

Thanks for the input, I've about decided to stick with what I've already got and try to use some of the suggestions I've picked up here to improve my consistancy. Your 2 cents is always welcome. Thanks again, Fletch