Why shoot cast bullets ? Besides being inexpensive,fun, easy on the barrel, satisfying to make, great penetrators, more different styles available than jacketed, easier to clean up after, I don't know why ? Then again, why not !

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jeff

Don't forget higher velocities grain for grain vs. jacketed while still maintaining safe pressure levels.

Stranger,
* * * * *  Touche', but of course ...... !

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jeff

Cast n Blast,
I have been casting bullets for about 50 years,and I have'nt saved a dime. I did shoot a heck of a lot more then if I had stuck with jacketed bullets.
I cast bullets for the same reason that I handload ammunition. It's a challenge;an oppertunity to get more involved in my favorite sport.
And don't be afraid to hunt Whitetails with cast bullets. This past Fall,I flattened a buck at 50 yards,with a Shoulder shot! I ate both shoulder roasts,Too.
Frank

Kragman71,
* * * * * * * Greetings, sir ! I have been been casting for only a little over 10 years myself. Hope I can make it another 40 to match your record <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->.

You hit the nail on the head when you stated you wanted to get more involved in your handloading by casting your own bullets. Nothing is more satisfying than getting a bunch of dirty, nasty old WW (or other choice of alloy) and turning it into nice, shiney, well filled out bullets. And then to have those bullets reloaded by yourself and see them chew up the X-ring, or pulverize a rock, or drop a game animal, hoo boy!, we're talking poetry in motion.

It feels good to be self sufficient and tap into our roots as riflemen, and do as our forefathers did. If only there was a way to make primers.....

Take care Kragman71, your a man after my own heart.

* * * * * * * * * * * * Jeff

I have a flintlock, for real primitive "reloading." No primers required!

Now if I could just make my own powder.

Where do you buy saltpeter?

I guess casting my own lead would be first though.

So far I buy cast bullets.
I would like to design &nbsp;some hard-to-get molds (in .410), like wadcutters, etc.: stuff I don't see around much, in weights I like.

Some day I'll get some Beartooth, but their .41 Rem is heavier than I need right now (just plinkin' lately).

cast-n-blast,
Besides all the above mentioned reasons I started casting because in the late 70's there were NO factory made cast bullets available for the .45 Colt.
And darn near anything else either.
Tons of .45 ACP bullets, mostly the 230 gr RN, or the Saeco 200 LN SWC. *But for the .45 Colt, virtually nothing. *
I wanted to shoot two basic loads. *One a factory equivelent load, and two a Keith bullet load. *So, I bought moulds. *Some used, some new. *And I cooked my own.
Wheel weights mostly, but ocassionally other alloys. *
The great part about it is that I can cast and size my bullets to correctly match the chamber throat dimentions of my revolvers. *
Even with the good cast bullets on the market today, this is sometimes hard to do.
When I move West again I think I will set up and start casting my bullets again.

Casting your own bullets is one way to get more deeply into the shooting hobby because it gives you a greater degree of control over the final product and it certainly gives a sense of satisfaction and pride knowing that you did it yourself.

Doing away with primers and going the blackpowder flintlock route is an even greater expression of the hobbyist's art. It brings you back to another, bygone era along with all its challenges and rewards.

For some of us who want to really get back to basics nothing quite beats the thrill and sense of accomplishment that goes along with mining your own lead. Studying the geology, staking a claim, sinking a shaft, following a vein, smelting and refining the ore...

I know it takes a little doing to get started, but hey, it's an activity that can bring the whole family together and isn't that what it's really all about?


<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

Hi, Elrod:
&nbsp; &nbsp;Old Walt at NEI has a 195 grain .411 wadcutter.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/frame.html

&nbsp; &nbsp;Watch ebay, etc. for a Lyman 199 gr. 41026 or a 220 gr. 41027 HB wadcutter mould. H&G had a 175 gr. #255 WC as well. All three are no long made.

Bye
Jack

Thanks, Jack!

I bookmarked his site and will definitely get back to him.
Just sent for some 220gr from Midway, got some BlueDot, then started papers on a .32 mag Vaquero on the way home!
Sheesh, who said reloading was cheaper?

<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->

Hi, Elrod:
&nbsp; &nbsp;From what I understand old Walt has a several month backlog and keeps threatening to retire tomorrow. It might pay to get your foot in the door sooner rather than later.

Bye
Jack

Gotcha!

Thanks again, I'll get on it right away.

.41 mag is an orphan, but it's a good'n.

You people are talking about the ultimate challenge of using a flintlock. I felt my life would not be complete until I owned and became proficient with a flinter. Two years of agony later I found a sucker and traded it for a TC Cherokee.
Do you know why the pictures of mountain men with flintlocks always have two horses?
The second horse carries all the equipment that it takes to keep a flinter shooting.

As they used to say on Monty Python, "And now for something completely different."

A number of arguments in favor of cast bullets have been made so far in this thread that are hard to dispute. The sense of personal accomplishment in taking game or a match win with bullets you personally created is quite satisfying. As several have mused, probably only surpassed by the muzzleloading hunter or the archer who makes his own bow and arrows. I would also agree that cast loads are generally easier on the firearms as well. Moreso in rifles than handguns but I do agree it is there.

All that said I would disagree with several points made in support of cast bullets. Please don't think my comments are in any way disparaging to anyone or their opinions. I'd just like to add my own personal beliefs to the mix so that anyone contemplating casting or extensive cast bullet use understands both sides of the story. I think my own experiences in casting have shown that for many shooters jacketed loads are superior to cast.

I do not believe there is a significant cost savings in using cast versus jacketed in most cartridges.To get above average accuracy, consistency in same, and minimal barrel leading requires very high quality cast bullets purchased from outfits like Beartooth or careful, time consuming home casting. In either case you will be paying indirectly for the time it takes to create quality cast bullets. Time is the most precious commodity there is. If you don't have enough to dedicate for everything casting requires then all the actual per bullet "savings" are meaningless. The commercial caster is faced with similar problems of time and the related expenses. Those are of course passed on to the consumer. This is significant and in the long run will pretty much equal or possibly exceed the cost of bulk jacketed and plated bullets. I did a cost comparison years ago of my own home cast .45-caliber Keiths versus jacketed bullets procurred from a leading mail order outfit. If I excluded my time the cost savings was great. But when the time used to gather raw materials, alloy and cast ingots, actually cast the bullets, and then "lubrisize" them was factored-in at even a minimum wage per hour basis the savings quickly disappeared. I don't know how valuable your time is but I believe mine to be much more so than the going Federal minimum wage, so just from this standpoint alone I haven't melted a pot of alloy in a very long time. We can then add the cost of specialized equipment, lubes, and alloy components and I believe you can see that quality casting isn't as cheap as it first appears.

A second point I would disagree with is performance of cast bullets compared with jacketed. I do not think that there is any improvement when using cast. This may sound like heresy but only to those accustomed to comparing "apples to oranges." An example would be something like "My 325-grain, 21 BHN .45 Colts blew through my last three deer like they were made of butter. My old .44 Magnum with 180-grain Sierras never did that!" Well Duh!, they shouldn't and couldn't on their best day. But compare that cast .45 ammo to similarly loaded 300-grain FA, *XTP or FMJ rounds and you have no difference at all. When really big or dangerous game is hunted the same applies. In fact excepting visiting American sportsmen with a penchant for big bore lever actions and revolvers I don't think there are more than a handful of hunters in Alaska, Asia, or Africa that would consider cast bullet loads in any cartridge for dangerous game if jacketed rounds were available. No less a heavyweight cast bullet notable than Ross Seyfried has doubts about using such loads to "fight wars" with Cape Buffalo. Let's face it, hard alloys are nothing new at all. (What is in the shooting world?) Yet the professional hunters of Africa and bear guides in Alaska I've read about almost never use anything but jacketed regardless of cartridge, nor have they for generations. If their heavy lead loads did the job better they would have kept them. But almost to a man every single one switched to jacketed cartridges like the .338-calibers and up. I think that's significant from a pure performance standpoint.

I hope no one takes offense from my opinions as there is none intended. I simply believe that from performance and cost standpoints quality cast bullets are not superior to similar jacketed or plated bullets.

Bill Lester,
I agree with you,100%!
That's why I noted that I never saved a dime by casting bullets. If I were to figure my time into the cost of shooting,I would never cast bullets or handload ammunition.
The good news is that most of this "work" is enjoyable for me.
It's the same deal for hunting.I enjoy eating venison. I also like most kinds of meat,but nothing that I ever ate is any better then prime beef,and I can buy it a lot cheaper then it costs me to bag my own venison. The good news is that I enjoy all that sweat and strain,that is called "Hunting".
Whenever I hear someone complain that hand loading or hunting is too much work,and they are thinking about quitting,I answer:"there's no money in it,so if you don't get any enjoyment from it,don't do it".
Maybe I'm a cousin to the folks who wear sackcloth and flog themselves with a whip.
Frank

Bill:

You make some exellent points but particularly for those of us who launch pistol caliber bullets from carbines with stout loadings there is nothing jacketed that can do what a premium LBT cast bullet can do in terms of combining deep penetration, wide meplat for cailber, and high velocities.

Or am I wrong?

Stranger,

This is one area where the cast heavyweight has some advantage on the whole, but even with this application one can use the excellent Nosler Partition, Hornady XTP, Swift, and others that will perform as well and possibly better for two reasons. First you will get "more meplat" because of expansion. They won't compromise penetration due to the controlled expansion provided by partitions, bonded cores, etc. You can also use a somewhat lighter bullet for added velocity and reduced recoil compared to heavy LBT's. For example, *Rifle magazine had an article a couple of years back on hunting big feral donkey in Australia with a Winchester 94 in 444. The guy used the lightweight for application and cartridge Nosler 250-grain Partition. He could only recover a couple of bullets. All the rest fully penetrated these zebra-like critters with a large amount of internal damage. What more could you realistically ask for?

That said, in all fairness, for this application the cast heavyweight will probably be cheaper simply because we're talking about premium jacketed slugs. But for most American carbine hunting you don't need premium cast or jacketed. Even somewhat "pedestrian" bulk bullets like Remington's 180-grain .357 work very well in Marlin's carbine for deer.

All,

I'm not qualified to speak to the question of cast versus jacketed when hunting game. But I can speak to the question of cost for the target shooter, who I suspect use a large percent of the cast bullets sold. I don't go out once or twice a year to sight the rifle/revolver in for hunting, I go out five times a week and shoot a minimum of 100 rounds a day. I also pay 1/2 the price for my cast bullets compared to the XTPs I buy on occassion. If you want Nosler, then it's 1/4th the price. And it doesn't require 500 rounds/week to notice the price difference. It would be interesting to know the percent of rounds spent plinking/etc. versus actual hunting, but not knowing, I will suggest a significant percentange of the bullets going down range every day are lead and are saving the shooter money. Beartooth/Cast Performance LBT bullets are outstanding, but costly. I develop my heavier loads with them, but for 95% of my shooting, I buy, either via the web or off the shelf, some very accurate lead bullets at 1/2 the price of jacketed.

Dan

I'll also throw my two cents worth into this arena. *From a hunter's point of view, and one that the Lord has allowed to be tempered with more than just a few harvests.

When traditional handgun cartridges and calibers are considered, it only takes once when shooting an adredalized wild hog, coming at you with malicious intent, and having emptied your six-shooter into the beast at bad-breath range only to have him continue on for you with those razor sharp teeth to make you reconsider your ammo selection. *This actually happened, and the ammo used was loaded with Hornady 300g XTP's in a .44 mag, the gun a SBH. *Range began at less than twenty feet... final range eight feet, the old bar-hog was killed by a friend with a .45-70 shooting cast bullets. *What happened? *two shots had missed the hog, and four had found their mark squarely in the center of his chest.... the grissle of that armor he had stopped those XTP's cold! *The bullets never penetrated to the vitals. *Had these rounds been loaded with a hard-cast wide meplat bullet any one of the connecting shots would have been fatal.

Case two was an Oregon spike bull elk. *A long story, but suffice it to say that through the course of some strange events, this spike bull was on a collision course with me through a very narrow game trail through some extrememly thick willow, alder and chinquapin brush. *My tool of opportunity a Ruger Security Six .357. *Range again tweny feet, to six feet, emptied the gun, elk's head stopped sliding on snow less than one foot from my feet. *Load: *Hefty charge of Blue Dot and Speer 158g Half-jacket hollow-points (this nearly 20 years ago), again two rounds missed the animal, four hit, one finally hit the soft spot in the brisket where the wind-pipe goes through, and it penetrated the top of the heart. *This animal made one pass at me, turned around ran down the trail towards my partner who missed it, and the spike bull returned down the trail to me once agian where I finished working on him with my handgun. *Post mortem showed the one round piercing the heart was the only one that made it past the brisket on the critter. *The mortal wound was made in the first three shots I fired, it just took him about two minutes to die. *Again, had I been shooting a hard-cast wide meplat bullet, any of the frontal shots would have been fatal, for they were well placed.

Another place that I wouldn't substitute a good hard cast bullet is in fall bear hunting. &nbsp;When those blackies have been fattening up for hibernation all fall eating berries and acorns, an entrance wound alone isn't enough for a blood trail when things go wrong and you have the unfortunate mis-placed shot. &nbsp;That hide and fat shift around, and in short order will plug-off an entrance wound so that it quits bleeding entirely. &nbsp;A spine shot is about all that will positively anchor these tenacious critters with regularity. &nbsp;Their will to survive is amazing, and if I have to track one through the fall woods, I want him leaking profusely on both sides. &nbsp;A hard cast wide-meplat bullet will accomplish this goal from a handgun, and do so with certainty, every time.

Bill, I'll agree that for most hunting applications, when using a centerfire bottle-necked cartridge, that jacketed bullets are the best option when full power loads are needed. *I shoot quite a few Barnes X in .30 caliber for the hot loaded '06 and '06AI hunting ammo used in our family. *

However, most of the deer hunting done around here, even with those '06's is accomplished with aplum using somewhat reduced (.30-30 type velocities) velocity ammo, and the loss of venison to bloodshot is nil. *When loading for .35 caliber and up, I've found nothing better than cast.... of course I'm a cast bullet junkie, I'll be the first to admit that one. *

Given traditional caliber hunting handgun ammo, I'll take hard cast wide-meplat bullets every time. *The same holds true in all straight-walled rifle cartridges as well.

God Bless,

Marshall



<!--EDIT|Marshall Stanton|April 25 2002,07:17-->

I'm with Bill on rifles - love Nosler Partitions in my '06. &nbsp;And have even gotten very good results with 'off the shelf' (not premium) jacketed bullets in other calibers like .257 Roberts and .338.

But... for my handguns, I don't think any jacketed bullet can touch an LBT-style cast. &nbsp;Just not enough velocity to drive all the way through IF it expands well. &nbsp;Not referring to whitetails, but hogs which I hunt a lot. &nbsp;JHP's in a .44 mag certainly work on deer, but so does a WFN and as a bonus, the WFN kills bigger, meaner, stuff too.

Haven't tried the new Nosler handgun bullets, but if they fulfill their promise, then just maybe they will be a viable substitute for LBTs.

I will note that if a jacketed bullet is available for a handgun that matches the LBT profiles and performance, I'm happy with that. &nbsp;In some calibers it's hard to find good jacketed bullets.

Cast can help make up for odd dimensions in a gun because the sizing can be varied somewhat. &nbsp;

Well, Bill, you sure have stirred the pot on this one! &nbsp;Good discussion, though.

Bill:

You said something that struck a resonant note... "I don't think there are more than a handful of hunters in Alaska, Asia, or Africa that would consider cast bullet loads in any cartridge for dangerous game if jacketed rounds were available."

Why is that? It seems to me that a premium hard cast bullet would be just the ticket for big bore (40 caliber plus) dangerous game rifles.

Thoughts anyone?

Stranger,

I have the same question as it's my understanding that the jackted bullets we're touching on have a hard core and are constructed for penetration and not expansion? Tradition maybe?

Dan

One thing you're missing in the cast vs jacketed discussion is availability of cast bullets if you don't reload. My Walmart doesn't have any lead loads above .22.

When I first started casting bullets in the early '70's, &nbsp;it was to add another dimension to handloading. &nbsp;I liked &nbsp;being more involved &nbsp;with the &nbsp;overall reloading process and I liked the challenge of making cast bullets and shooting them accurately.

In addition, one could make the bullet profile and weight of his/her own choosing, which sometimes could not be duplicated with the &nbsp;available jacketed bullets.

This is still true for me today, but in the past several years I have had an interest in Cowboy Action Shooting. &nbsp;Historically speaking, they were the &nbsp;bullet used in the old west cartridges. &nbsp;That makes them extra special!

John

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w30wcf
aka John Kort

Bill,
* *Nice article. This is the type of response I was hoping for when I initially posted this topic. Hearing different opinions, thinking them over, sorting them out, so you can make your own decisions. However, I disagree on a few of your points.

Considering time, I can cast 200 bullets an hour, give or take depending on bullet style, or mold. The same bullets can be lubrisized in about 20 minutes. As I get older, I know time is precious. However, alot of people have more time on their hands than money.Plus, hand cast bullets are much better than any machine cast bullet out there. Many people pay to have their lawns cut or houses painted, then again many people do same to save money and for the joy of a job well done.

As to performance, I don't think there is anything better than cast for handguns, period. Same for the lever guns. There may be an argument for the magnum bolt guns, with todays premium bullets. Then again, for deer and black bear, who needs premium bullets. And how many of us are seriously going to be going after brown bear or cape buffalo ? For penetration and permanant wound channel, my vote goes to cast.

As to professional hunters and guides, how many of them handload at all ? In my limited experiance to guided hunts, the guides used whatever was on sale at wally world or K-mart.

Which brings us to Ross Seyfried. I think the article your refering to about him having doubts to using cast on cape buffalo is in reference to him using his .44 magnum. Seyfried has written many articles on taking cape buffalo with his 5 shot .45 colt and .475 linebaugh with CAST bullets.

Again, good article. I think it got alot of people thinking one way or another, which is great. Everyone has there own beliefs and preferences, which makes this world all the more interesting. If you like blackpowder, shoot blackpowder. Like the challenge of hunting with a bow, do so. Like dressing up as a cowboy and shootin' the bad guys, knock yourself out. Like casting bullets and hunting with same, enjoy. Want the premo bullets, go to it. Just go out there and have some fun.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jeff

While I would like to address every point made so far I really don't have the time it would entail to do you all justice. Much like casting. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> So before the typer's cramp sets in, here we go.

The point I mentioned about Ross Seyfried is most emphatically made by him regarding his biggest 5-shooters. If I may quote him from the Aug.-Sept. 2000 issue of Handloader...

First, I said I would hunt buffalo with a .45-90 and have hunted them with .45 and .475 revolvers. There is a big difference between hunting, taking a carefully placed precise shot at an unsuspecting beast, and ending a war with a wounded dynamo... In this employment bullet placement may be marginal and the enemy may be in advance, instead of retreat. Under these circumstances you need all the power and penetration money can buy. While I think they could handle it, I do not willingly pick fights with my revolvers.


Regarding the time requirements of casting, if someone has plenty to spare then have at it and enjoy. I did once I got past the stink of fluxing and cleaning dirty alloys. It was an interesting part of the handloading hobby. But once in college eons ago I soon realized that the actual casting was but part of the equation. Locating and gathering raw materials, then getting halfway clean lead, then pouring ingots, followed by alloying all before I actually cast a single slug. After that we had sizing, heat treatment if required, lubing, and then waiting for the lube to solidify before I could load ammo. I'm sorry but that takes a heckuva lot more time than driving to the local gunshop or making an 800 number call to your mail order house of choice. For casual and serious match shooting I soon realized that on the whole plated bullets were the better choice. Cleaner, not just in the guns themselves but in all the handling cast bullet manufacture entails, just as easy on the guns, and about the same price once time was factored-in. For hunting purposes I tested jacketed and my own cast stuff in a variety of media and found no realistic difference. A deer or black bear, my personal limits for handguns, would be just as fully penetrated by one as the other. How much more dead can your game be than dead?

Finally the question of professional, dangerous game hunters/guides in Africa or Alaska. Simply put these fellows' very lives depend on their weapons to stop a charging beast in its tracks every single time no matter the range or angle. Ever since the early years of the 20th century, when the smokeless revolution swept the shooting world, such men have almost exclusively used jacketed ammunition of stout construction. In many cases the bullets were/are jacketed in steel or tungsten. If these professionals believed hardened lead could do the job every time I doubt they would have switched en masse as they did. Look at John "Pondoro" Taylor, who started out with a Martini .577/450 but replaced it ASAP with more modern rifles using jacketed ammunition. And while arms such as Jim West's impressive .45-70 Co-Pilot hold some appeal for smaller dangerous game, when the foe is a ton or more of buffalo, gaur, coastal grizzly, or elephant I would be very surprised if more than a handful of professionals would use such an arm in lieu of a .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, or .458 Winchester. What may be perfectly sufficient for the visiting sportsman who is a big bore lever gun or revolver enthusiast hunting unwary game isn't necessarily the best choice for the PH backing him up when things don't go exactly as planned.

Hee hee, Bill you sure stepped into this time. *<!--emo&:p--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->

I have several acquaintances that are guides for the big coastal brownies up here. *Most of the rifles carried are 40 cal or bigger. *Lot of 416's and 458's. *Coming in close behind is 375 H&H. *All these guys use premium jacketed bullets. *I didn't ask their reason for it, so I don't know the answer. *That is not saying (as Bill mentioned) one is any better than the other, it is just what it is. *I would suppose these guys (yeah they handload) do it for sake of convienance and reputation. *They use the Swift's, the Bitterroots, Noslers, Barnes, Hawk et al, for the same reason they use the 458 Winny, no matter what the worst case scenerio dishes out, they can rely on them and that is their reputation. *These bullets have been tested the world over time and time again on dangerous game, so why not be like Mike?

Funny thing though, several of these old boys carry sidearms too. *Yep, you guessed it, each and every side arm is loaded with cast. *I think it's all more mindset than anything. *These guys probably grew shooting jacketed bullets, it's all you ever read about, so that's what they shoot. *They know if they follow recipe X from Nosler's reloading manual, they'll get likeable results, or Barnes, or etc....

I'm currently trying to get a 40 caliber wildcat built just because I want to. *I'll carry it where the large growly beasties are and my first loads will very likely be using Marshall's cast. *I will go in complete confidence, because Marshall is a God-fearing man and if his bullets let me down, my spirit will move down to Idaho and make the hairs on the back of his stand attention for days on end. *<!--emo&:p--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->

Alyeska,

Does "deer in the headlights" ring a bell? Either that or I suddenly developed a bullseye birthmark like that whitetail in a Far Side cartoon from years ago! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

The backup handguns carried by your guide friends are no surprise. When you're using something as comparatively puny as a handgun against coastal grizzly you need any advanatge you can eek from the cartridge. In their place I would likely use a stoutly jacketed FMJ... and pray every day I didn't need to clear leather on a grizzly in the alders. But *for me this is more an indication of using pistols against great predators than a question of bullets.

Marshall I wanted to address your post but it was getting rather late yesterday when I last picked-up the gauntlet. I may be wrong in remembering this but hasn't there been a big change to the Hornady XTP to decrease expansion/increase penetration in the last several years? I would be willing to bet the pig incident you mentioned occurred when the original XTP's were the norm. Nevertheless an acquaintance loaded those same early .44-caliber XTP's when they first came onto the market and used them with great success on wild pig. I've seen the post mortem photos myself and it would be hard to imagine any handgun bullet doing a significantly better job. But maybe a hollowpoint isn't the best choice for big boars. A Freedom Arms .45 JSP, Speer Gold Dot PSP, or any FMJ in .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, or .454 would penetrate just as well as the WFN for this application. It appears that this particular porker you ran into really didn't want to become bacon!

As far as the spike elk goes I believe you would agree that *any .357 load comes up pretty short when the sights are set on a wapiti. But using those old Speer half jackets made it much worse. A good deer bullet but that's about it. Not a bad design, it was just asked to do something for which it was never intended. Compounding this and the pig incident was the fact both animals were highly adrenalized, wounded and charging. Classic examples of why PH's and bear guides use the guns and loads they do!

Finally to my friend Dan in regards to bullet cost. For casual target shooting and the rare IDPA or bowling pin match I shoot anymore I use Ranier electroplated bullets. I can locally purchase 1000 .357/158's for $50 any time I need them. If I want to duplicate my carry load for practice I can order bulk Remington 125-grain SJHP's for a smidge under $50. That's less than a nickel a bullet without any fuss or muss. Just the lube sticks alone to make that many cast bullets would run about $20 if anything better than ear wax is used. Add to that the cost of alloy, electricity or propane to fuel the melting pot, and gas checks. Even if we exclude the time factor and its indirect costs this all adds up pretty quickly. Nothing personal but I stand behind my claim that home casting is false economy compared to most plated or jacketed bullets.



<!--EDIT|Bill Lester|April 26 2002,08:18-->

Bill,

I'm impressed with your obvious courage in tackling a subject that is somewhat like Daniel (Bill in this case) in the lion’s den! You’ve offered some very interesting, thought provoking comments.

I'll offer only two general observations. First, to your point about the cost of casting. In my mind, using pure dollars and sense (little pun) comparisons, you're certainly correct. But then the cost of producing a product exceeding the cost of purchasing the product is true for most any hobbyist. But as you know, the payoff isn't in dollars, but in enjoyment, pride of accomplishment, etc., things more valuable than what money or Visa cards can buy. When I read the posts on "Shooters.com" casting section, I conclude that I've never seen so many people have so many problems as they have in casting good bullets. Now, I completely agree with you that I've got much better things to do with my time, but these folks are obviously thoroughly enjoying themselves, and the payoff for them is “cost effective”. Besides, I think that some of these casters could be dangerous to themselves and others if not kept busy casting?

I’m not familiar with the Ranier bullets, but you’re correct, they are competitive with the prices I pay for good cast bullets. &nbsp;Locally, I pay $52/K for Leadhead or Mid-Kansas plain based and $64/K for gas checked. I’ll see if I can find the Ranier bullet without needing the additional cost of shipping.

I’ll admit to still being curious about “why” the PHs only use jacketed rifle bullets. One would "assume" there is a practical reason behind any life treatening decision, but tradition is also very powerful. Has the LBT hard cast bullet been trial tested and found wanting in any way? I've noticed there is an option on the "Shooters.com" site that has discussions about African hunting which might shed some light?

Anyhow, certainly enjoyed your comments and do appreciate the time you spent developing the courteous responses.

Dan

Hi, Gents:
* * In my own case, I started casting last summer for a couple of reasons. *I've got more time than money since I rented the farm out. *I can't get quality cast bullets locally and shipping costs on good ones, including Marshall's, are prohibitive. *Wheelweights are cheap and I can turn a 5 gallon pail full into muffin ingots in an afternoon (if my back holds out). An old Coleman stove supplies the heat and there's lot's of other useful stuff around the farm too. Luckily, my timing was right and I got a lubricator / sizer and several moulds from Steve Koschak at a very good price. *Add the entertainment value of doing it myself and I'm ahead.

* Frankly, I didn't want to start casting, but when I told one of the local casters that his last batch of bullets had a lot with base fins, he said "I know, my moulds are worn out, but they'll shoot better than you can" <!--emo&:angry:--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'><!--endemo--> A batch from the other local caster had 1/4 cast with offset mould halves and another 1/4 cast from a chipped mould. Enough of that. *

Bye
Jack



<!--EDIT|Jack Monteith|April 26 2002,10:41-->

Cabelas and Midway both carry Ranier. I shoot them in 45ACP. Seem to do fine.

Dan,

I fully agree that casting is an interesting and rewarding part of the handloading hobby. In the case of some oddball and obsolescent cartridges there really isn't any other way to shoot. Take for example the .38-55 Winchester. Most of them have sizing specs all over the place that make it financially unviable for jacketed manufacturers to cover every diameter. The fella with an old Model 94 really needs to use cast to get any decent accuracy from this cartridge. Also the shooter that may be hurting some for disposable cash- when haven't we all done that!- but has some time on his hands can certainly benefit. It's a great hobby for someone who is retired and if truth be told, I'd probably cast some again if I could spare the time.

But that's my main motivation for responding to this thread in regards to the "costs" of casting. If you look back to the time frame of this thread, it took me a while to decide if I should step into the fray. I was among the first to read cast-n-blast's initial message but held off to see how things went. What finally did it was thinking about my own experience 10+ years ago when I started casting bullets. While I enjoyed it at the time, I spent a bunch of money to get started that looking back could've been used more profitably in other shooting endeavors. As a cash-strapped college student every penny counted but I soon realized casting didn't save me like I thought it would. So with this 20/20 hindsight in mind I wanted to present another side of the casting question for anyone who may read this thread and think about getting started. I wouldn't want someone like me ten years ago to go into it pretty much ignorant of all the aspects.

If you get the opportunity to try some of the Rainier electroplated bullets, do so and I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised. A good friend who shoots a lot of IDPA and such turned me on to them and I have no regrets from day one. They make a very good target and plinking bullet.

With regards to your question on PH's, I think a great deal of it has to do with the cartridges they use. Excepting the .458 Winchester Magnum, most of the rounds used against dangerous game develop velocities upwards of 2300 fps. That's a rather precipitous plateau for cast even when the hardest and thus most brittle alloys are used. I don't think a cast 300-grain .375 H&H at around 2500-2600 fps would hold together enough for the penetration that charging buffalo or elephant require. For lighter dangerous game like leopard, lion, or tiger one would need cast soft noses to equal the shock effects of a jacketed softpoint. This would also apply to hunting buffalo and elephant in herds, where a solid may perforate the animal you want and go on to wound another. Making good soft noses is certainly post-graduate work for the caster and a very low quantity proposition.I doubt many professionals could spare the time and efforts involved even if they wanted to try it. Finally I think Alyeska's comments along the lines of "if it works, don't fix it" apply to the African PH and Alaskan bear guide.

Jack,

Sorry to hear about your experience with local casters but sadly it rings all too true in my own as well. One thing is certain though, if anyone wants to use hard cast bullets for any purpose they'll find none better than Beartooth Bullets' wares. Yes they are pricey but then again so is a Mercedes Benz. I honestly believe the two are comparable in their own arenas.



<!--EDIT|Bill Lester|April 26 2002,17:30-->

Bill,

Appreciate the excellent response. I checked with my "Sheels All Sports" shop today and they had discussed carrying the Raineir product, but have not to date. They did say they'd heard good things about the electroplated bullets, and I can easily find some on the Web and will give them a try.

The PH explanation helped. &nbsp;Coincidently, I just got a loaned copy of "Death in the Grass (Capstick) &nbsp;back today -- which reminded me that the bullets used by the PHs in Africa aren't going to be an issue with me 'cause I'm conspicuously not skilled enough to put myself in a situation where I'd have to worry the big five, or the next ten for that matter.

Dan

Hey guys,
I got to thinking about this a little more and went back into the issues of Rifle and started looking at what those guys were saying. *When discussing stopping rifles or dangerous game rifles (whatever you call them), even good ol' Ross Seyfried heralds the premium jacketed bullets. *His choices have always been the FailSafe, Jensen, Woodleigh, Nosler, Swift, etc... *Only does he mention cast bullets are when velocities drop below 2,000 fps. *When he does testing on a new cartridge, he hardly uses cast in his tests. *I've seen the cast used judicously in testing the BPCR's and handguns. *Maybe we should talk those guys into doing a test that includes accuracy, penetration, etc.. using the different bullets and definitely have them include the Beartooth. *I'm not so convinced that a lot of folks know about the potential gains in using cast bullets and until one of the major rags start comparing such with others out there. As long as they don't get involved it'll most likely be a grass-roots type recommendation.

I don't think the membership on this site comes anywhere near the subscription levels of Rifle/Handloader, G&A, Hunting, or any of the other mags. *Without an audience, you preach to the choir.

Just a thought

Bill,
* *Just got done casting 500 .44 250 gr. Keith bullets with a Lyman 4 cavity mold. It took 1 hr. and 10 min. to do so. I then lubed and sized them in a RCBS Lubrisizer. It took 55 min. to do this. While doing this labor of love, I was thinking about the cost involved in reference to this thread.

My alloy of choice is wheelweight(WW). I don't pay a penny for this alloy. Gas stations and Tire centers gladly give all the WW I want. No cost for alloy. About once a year, I melt these down in a cast iron pot that holds about 100 lbs. of melted alloy over a propane burner. For $11.00, I can melt and flux 3 pots(300+ lbs.) of alloy for ingots on one tank of propane. This works out to 3.6 cents a pound. There are 28 250gr. bullets in 1 lb. Hence, 500 250gr. bullets weighs 17.85 lbs., or 64 cents worth of propane to smelt the alloy. *Fluxing is done with wax from old candles and kitty litter, nominal cost of $1.09 for 10 lb. bag(which last for years).

O.K., we're 64 cents deep into the cost. Now comes the lube. 30 sticks of LBT lube can be purchased for $85.00, postage paid. This works out to $2.83 a stick. I lubed over 1300 bullets with 1 stick. This works out to $1.08 for lube. We're up to $1.72 for propane and lube. Now, if we added gas checks,(of course we don't for the Keith, but if it was an LBT design or other) , they can be bought for $15.00 per 1000. This works out to $7.50 per 500. My cost comes to $9.22 for bullets of comparitable size. No gas checks, we're down to $1.72.

Whoa, ya' say, what about the mold cost ? For the price of your 500 Rainier bullets, I have my mold that can cast an infinite amount of bullets. The same can be said for the other equipment involved. I would venture to say you would absorbe the cost of your equipment in a year or two, depending on how much you shoot.

The cost savings can really be seen in rifle bullets. For example, Midways May, 2002 catalog lists 500 .35 cal. 200 gr Remington SP for $63.99. Compare this to my $9.22 for gas checked bullets. I have driven my water quenched, gas checked, WW bullets in excess of 2800 fps with no leading and MOA accuracy. Unchecked pistol bullets can excede 1500 fps without leading.

For a couple hours time and $9.22 or $1.72, depending on checked or unchecked bullets, I get 500 high quality hard cast( 21 BHN) bullets. Compare this to your $50.00 Rainier plated bullets.

As you stated, casting is not for everyone, however, I think the savings involved are obvious. Not to mention the satisfaction, which you acknowledged in your response.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jeff

Jeff,

To get the same leading resistance of the Rainiers I mentioned you'd have to use checked bullets. So double your costs to compare because that $50 is for 1000 bullets, not the 500 you just cast. So now you're around $20 or so. Add to that the two hours it took you to make, size, and lube at even $6 per hour and we have $32. Now, how long did it take for you to scrounge up all the raw wheelweights, lube, propane, etc.? That would be at least three stops. An hour and a half shall we say? Now we're up to around $40 in labor. What does gas go for in your neck of the woods? If you have any significant mileage to run these casting errands you'd factor-in your car's fuel. All of this to get you to the point of standing over a blazing hot, stinky pot of chemically treated wheelweights for at least an hour. To me this isn't a very good tradeoff compared to one 5 minute drive to my local gunshop. In the time it took you to get just 500 bullets ready for loading, once everything is considered, I could have a thousand loaded rounds and be on the way to the range. Casting really would have to be a labor of love for results like that. And you're a pretty fast caster compared to me! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->



<!--EDIT|Bill Lester|April 28 2002,15:53-->

Bill,
&nbsp; &nbsp;I'm not letting you off the hook that easy:D. I'm looking at the latest Midway catalog. The Rainier bullets your getting must be .35 cal. pistol bullets for $50.00 per 1000. Look at the .44 cal. bullets. For the comparable .44 300 gr. FP at $90.99 (yikes) per 1000, I've invested 4 hrs. time and $18.44, for a 330gr LBT LFNDCGC per 1000. I've driven these pills in excess of 2200 fps in my .444 without the slightest hint of leading. Same goes for my un-checked pistol bullets at 1500 fps. I doubt your driving those Rainier bullets that fast or faster.

Again the savings is even greater when we compare large bore heavyweight bullets for rifles.For instance, the 400 gr Speer .45 rifle bullet goes for $16.49 for 50. That's $330.00 per 1000. I can cast better bullets for under $20.00 and a few hours time per 1000.

As to time, gasoline involved scrounging, I'm fortunate in that I can do these things while on the clock. I'm getting paid to scrounge while driving a company car.

As to working over a stinky mess, what were you fluxing with ? I use kitty litter, once in the casting pot. No odors,And it cleans the WW alloy to a beautiful, silvery liquid that cast perfectly well filled out bullets.

Anxiously awaiting your reply <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Jeff

Actually I've chronographed a load using the Rainier plated bullets at 1621 fps from a Marlin 1894 and know for a fact they are much cleaner than the best lead I've used at similar velocities. In handguns the best I've seen was about 1200 fps, again without any cleaning more intense than two patches following a nylon brush.

Since I no longer load .44-caliber anything I can't be certain what the charge is but the price I quoted for those .357 Rainiers is from a local gunshop, not mail order. A five minute drive, seven if I hit a couple of stop lights. So if at the last minute I decide to go shooting and don't have ammo made, I can hop down to my local arms merchant and in short order have as many rounds as I could forseeably use in an afternoon.

I'll agree that sub-2200 fps big bore cartridges are an area where cast has a strong niche, but the time and efforts are still very much part of the equation. But if you don't own a .444, .45-70, etc. the luster quickly wears off. *This is amply shown by the above referenced Rainier .357's. The gap is quite narrow at that point. Especially so when you consider the time involved. Fortunately I have family commitments that call on my time as well as work, the lawn, etc. To cast 1000 bullets in a minimum of four hours just isn't in the cards. It would be either cast or shoot and hunt. I'll choose the latter and I believe most people would make the same choice. And that is the whole crux of my postings to this thread: If you want to start casting, fine. But understand that the time commitments are significant, in many if not most calibers there is little hard savings compared to non-premium plated or jacketed plinking/target bullets, and that you'll not gain any real improvement in hunting performance over easily obtained jacketed projectiles. Believe me if one gets the impression I'm "anti-cast bullet" they're wrong. For some applications they're great, but on balance there is a lot of baggage getting them. All I wanted to do was let the potential caster know what he was getting into before money was committed.

I used Marvellux for fluxing, but the stink comes from the nasty chemical coatings on many commercial wheelweights. It gave me terrible headaches that could last for a couple of days after the casting session was over. That is another area that hasn't even been addressed so far, the health dangers of casting.

Uhh Fellows
&nbsp; &nbsp; What did the Europeans use in Africa Before the 20th century when they went after elephants .cape buffalo etc.What do you mean cast lead bullets arent hard enough, arent expandible, arent good enough to kill big tough game? What do you think the Buffalo Hunters used?
What do you think the early Alaskans used for Garrrizzzeelly Bars?
&nbsp; &nbsp;Maybe I got up on the wrong end of the century than you guys did, but I can honestly say that I would &nbsp;use the CORRECT cast lead Bullet on any type of game.in North america(in fact I alreadyhave) and if I wanted to huint in Africa, I get me a 45-70 and the right bullet and shoot my heart out
So There
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;tbc

Evening, Gents:
&nbsp; &nbsp; As I said before, I won't be casting if I could get quality bullets at a reasonable price. &nbsp;However, $40.25 of Marshall's bullets cost me $110 in Canadian loonies by the time I got them home. Marshall said "OUCH". On the other hand, a pail of wheelweights is a 5 minute drive away, no stop lights either.

&nbsp; &nbsp;The fumes off raw wheelweights aren't good for you, but I can set up in several places, depending on the wind. It's strictly an outdoors job. You may remember we discussed health issues back in June.
http://beartoothbullets.com/cgi-bin....=health (http://beartoothbullets.com/cgi-bin/shoot/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=208;hl=health)

Bye
Jack

Caster,

I'm not an historian, but as I remember the literature, the folks you referenced got killed alot?

Dan

Caster,

I'm not an historian, but as I remember the literature, those folks you referenced got killed a lot?

Dan

A whole lot. Then there are the untold numbers of game that were wounded by lead bullets that did not adequately penetrate. Game that went on to menace locals who had no firearms at all to defend themselves. The record stands clear. If the old cartridges worked as well as smokeless, jacketed "small bores," why would the professional ivory hunters and others have switched as soon as they possibly could? Read Ross Seyfried's article in either Rifle or Handloader, I don't remember which, from a year or so ago about The Most Powerful Rifles on Earth. While the 8 and 4 bores were/are truly impressive from a "Holy Smoke!" standpoint, the much smaller jacketed .577's and .600 are infinitely more effective when things go wrong.

Gentlemen,

If I may beg the question of what rifle bullets the PHs use for a moment, there appears to be a number of handgun hunters that stalk the African buffalo and other dangerous game. The oft mentioned Seyfried is an example. I wonder what they use? I know jacketed bullets are available for the .454, and I assume the same is true for the .475 and .500 cartridges. I don't know if the handgun velocities are sufficient for the jacketed expansion requirements, and if they are, if adequate penetration occurs.

In any case, forgetting what the backup PH is using for the moment, what are the BIG GAME handgunners using....and why?

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|April 29 2002,06:48-->

Bill,

Since Rainier bullets aren't available locally, I just went to Cabela's web sight to order some and found the 240gr .429 bullets to be $43.99 for FP and $44.99 for HP for 500 bullets. *I just checked Leadhead, my favorite (having tried Hunters, Mid-Kansas, and Oregon Trail) .250gr. Keith .430 plain base and they're listed at $44 for 1000. I've found the Leadheads to be very accurate and no leading at practice/plinking velocities. My gas checked .430gr bullets cost me $64/1000 (purchased locally from a caster) and are accurate and don't lead at any velocities I've tried.

I also checked Midway and found their Rainier .429 HP 500 price to be within a dollar of Cabela's, but they did offer a 1000 price of $76. Since I buy my gas checked bullets locally, I'd have to add about $20/$30 for S&H for the Rainier, so I'm in the area of $30 cheaper for my best cast .44mag bullets.

So, at the risk of "being stubborn", I've not found the Rainier bullets to be cost competitive by a significant margin for the .44 caliber in my location.


Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|April 29 2002,07:32-->

Hi, Gents:
&nbsp; &nbsp;It seems that this question boils down to three factors.

&nbsp; &nbsp;Location. &nbsp;Most store bought bullets are economical at the factory door. Shipping is a killer if you're too far away. Add 13% tax if you live here.

&nbsp; &nbsp;Time. Some of us have it, some don't.

&nbsp; &nbsp;Aptitude. Some of us like casting, some don't.

&nbsp; &nbsp;As for mowing the lawn, we had very little snow this winter and no runoff. My water supply is only 10% full so the lawn won't get watered this summer. &nbsp;Therefore I can spend all that mowing time casting. :D

Bye
Jack

WOW! WHAT A THREAD!!
&nbsp; PLenty of discusion on both sides of the issue.
I've always been an experimentor and I &nbsp;dont mind putting in the time and enrgy to fulfill &nbsp;my Curious bent of mind. .DOK says that making soft -nosed hunting bullets is a bit advanced for the average caster. I have done it since1984 and have great success with my method ,and I am just an ordinary bullet caster.
&nbsp; If you want to see the way I do it ,go toTECH NOTES &nbsp;and after Mr.Millers fine article you go down the line 7 places to "QUENCH ANNEAL;Aprocess for soft nose cast bullets"
&nbsp; There are reference to various figures in this article that are left out because I couldnt get my computerto send them,but there are a couple of sketches that will give you the idea of the equipment I used. I think you will see that cast lead bullets are not the wimps people think they are.
Oh, yes,I must apoligise. I haven't killed a moose or a caribou with a cast lead bullet.But for the other big game on this continent ie. mule deer, bear, elk and even an Oryx at White Sands Missle Facility.I shot a black bear in the sumer of 1941just before my 14th birthday with a38-40 winchester.
As for wild sheep, just give me the chance.
tbc

Well, Mr. Caster, here's my story.

You said: "DOK says that making soft -nosed hunting bullets is a bit advanced for the average caster"

What I said: "When I read the posts on "Shooters.com" casting section, I conclude that I've never seen so many people have so many problems as they have in casting good bullets"

Now in fairness to this old man, I don't think those two quotes have a lot in common! I haven't a clue as to the experience level or if they're attempting soft-nosed or hard-nosed pills over on the "Shooters.com", but I'll stick to my story, they have their share of problems -- or so they report!
Maybe they're all below average?

By the way, I noticed you didn't address my comment, "Besides, I think that some of these casters could be dangerous to themselves and others if not kept busy casting?" *You aren't covering op for your fellow dabblers are you? Come on, you can trust us!

Anyhow, enjoyed your contribution and am pleased to find a contributor who is even older than I am.

Have a good day casting, you lucky ordinary fella :-)

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|April 29 2002,11:31-->

Dan,

Sorry to hear that the Rainiers are more expensive by such a margin for you. They are very good slugs and are well worth the price even at $76 per 1000. Is that $20 for shipping really what they charge at Cabela's?! If so, what a ripoff! Just one more reason to dump those overpowered handcannons you love. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

As far as handgun hunters go, there is probably a split when it comes to calibers. Gut instinct tells me jacketed is much more popular with the .357, .41, .44, and to a degree .45 Colt crowd than with the monster .475's, .480's, etc. I don't know where the .454 would fall considering the reputation Freedom Arms softpoints have. But as I pointed out, and supported with the quote from Seyfried, there is a very great difference between *hunting dangerous game and fighting same. Never having hunted anything more lethal than whitetails I can't speak with authority on such things, but I have read several others with extensive dangerous game experience who would mirror Ross' comments. *

As an aside I remember seeing on a well-known ammo manufacturer's website a photo of a guy with his magnum handgun over a dead buffalo, extolling the performance of this company's rounds. Trouble is, if you look closely, there are three visible bullet holes all put in the lethal areas. That doesn't bode much confidence for me.

Wait a minute Jeff, Kitty Litter flux? I need help with that one.

Hi, Old Jim:
� �A lot of folks like new (not used :D) kitty litter for flux in bottom pour pots. I'll let Jeff handle the details, menawhile, check out this excellent article on fluxing.
http://www.sixguns.com/crew/simplefluxing.htm

Bye
Jack

Old Jim,
* * * * Yep, kitty litter! The cheap, gravely, gray kind of any store brand works great. I throw a handfull of kitty litter into the pot while smelting WW alloy along with wax. All the grease and grime is absorbed from the WW and adheres to the kitty litter. The kitty litter is then scooped out.

Once ingots are made, and I'm casting from my RCBS bottom pour pot, I add about 1-1 1/2 " of kitty litter to cover the entire surface of alloy. Even with clean alloy, you'll be surprised how dirty the kitty litter becomes. The kitty litter is changed about every 2 or 3 pot fulls. You'll know it's time to change, when it turns black.The kitty litter also acts as an insulator, in that the alloy heats up faster and keeps the precious tin from burning up in the pot on the surface. Some say the kitty litter method is a constant fluxing action. I don't know? *.

What I do know is that since using kitty litter, my bullets are the shinniest they've ever been. Give it a try, it'll only cost you about $1.00 and change.

I got this tip from Shooting Times(May,1999) magazine in an article by Sheriff Jim Wilson a few years back. In the article, Penn Baggett talks of the kitty litter flux. Been usin' it ever since.

Let me know how it works out for you. It definitely works for me! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->

* * * * * * * * * *Jeff

Sorry-got a double post

Wow! It's amazing what I don't know! I used to think that getting a longbow and wooden arrows to shoot was magic. *This pistol shooting if much worse.
Next you'll tell me that I have to stand on one foot, face the east, stuff my mouth with cotton balls while juggling live chipmunks as I pour metal with the toes of the other foot to produce good bullets.
I think that this mystery/mystic/involvement is what makes any hobby worthwhile. Maybe if we were required to carry a gun and practice with it would make it work instead of play.
As long as I'm playing, time means nothing. So far it's obvious that I can buy better bullets than I can make but that doesn't keep me from trying.

Part of the game.

Well, here we go again....sort of. *Just finished the new "Accurate Rifle", a publication that I thoroughly enjoy. The first article was "The Weatherby Man" and covered an African buffalo hunt by Tommy Lee, with the author being one of the PH assigned to make sure Mr. Lee got back safely -- which he almost did not. Tommy's rifle of choice was a Weatherby .416 Magnum, firing a 400gr. bullet at 2700fps. The article indicates this produced 6500 foot pounds of muzzle energy and a Taylor Knock Out value of 64! *It was a great, funny, insightful article that demonstrates the power of the rifles currently available.

Towards the back of this issue was the article "Heavy, Heavy Cast-Bullet Loads for the 450 Marlin". *Without any delay, I'll get to the article's conclusion, "While others might disagree,it seems to us that this bullet (460gr. WFN), launched at 1900 fps from this handy carbine, would make a superior choice for those interested in hunting practically any dangerous game species worldwide. Nevertheless, owing to recoil considertations, it seems unlikely that a similar mainstream factory loading might ever be offered...."

I realize a key word in the last quote is "practically", and I'm not suggesting this 460gr. WFN load at 1900 fps is the equivalent of the 6500 ft/lbs Weatherby, but apparently, it ain't chopped liver either. So, jacketed solids in big rifles may be better stoppers, but the hard cast bullet in a *reasonably priced Marlin rifle offers something to consider for folks that don't have Tommy's big bucks but aren't foolish risk takers either.

Dan



<!--EDIT|DOK|April 30 2002,08:15-->

Kragman71, I tell you what I agree in some ways but not in others.I recently bought a 454 casull and the bullets from factory offerings were $20 a box . I then started loking at casting and or buying cast bulets which in the end I bought castperformance bulets . I figured my cost then after calculating the powder the cost of the brass , 20cents per bullet and primers and each load now cost me 37cents. I saved 63cents per load. Now on the other hand if I was doing any of this loading for money or this hunting for money I would be in the hole and I agree about time being pecious if so I would have quit hunting and loading yrs ago.!!!II have two young children and I am watching them grow up and I am also a police officer and I get tons of negative comments toward me over the fact that I feel my time at home with my wife and kids is more precious than my lousy job.I dont love my kids or the time spent with them because of money and I dont love hunting and loading because of money I do both because I love them and money is no concern and I do not have tons of money to throw away I just dont compair things I do for love against money. Most of the guys in my dept. are money hungry freaks and it doesnt give them pleasure because they are to stupid or immature to realize that time spent at home or in the woods equals true enjoy ment not hording overtime and having no time to spend it and no time for relationships and no time for the outdoors.Loading is done for the love of it and for the satisfaction not mostly based on the cost for if that were the issue, everything I shot I would buy from buffalo bore or some where like that instead of loading it.I would also stay at work many hours over instead of spending time with my family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about handloading large bore calibers? I'm going to be buying a .450 caliber and think the ammo is more expensive than handloading.
Who has experience with this?
I don't mind the time spent since it is relaxing and brings me closer to my Lord.

Kragman I agree I do it for the enjoyment, The time is well spent and relaxing after a crazy day or week at work,, I also fish, The cost after buying the new boat is down to about $2,000.00 a pound, not figuring for the truck to pull the boat or gas etc,etc.

You sed it Kragman, casting bullets and reloading is a HOBBY!
If you like doing it then do it without apology to anybody and if you don't like doing then fer Pete's sake STOP!!

The cost differences are exagerrated. If one compares cast bullets with 'premium' jacketed then, yes. Compared with the bulk factory jacketed bullets, probably not. For one thing jacketed bullets [mail order] often have much lower shipping costs.

RE: PH's. Some of this could be tradition. In the old day hard lead bullets were much softer than today and did not penetrate as well. FMJ's were a known quality. Someone in that line of life or death work is realistically reluctant to try anything new, even if it would work. Then there is the liability issue. If PH loads his back-up gun with hard cast lead bullets and his client get stomped by a buffalo or gnawed by the lion so smart *** lawyer is going to sue claiming PH unnecessarily jeopardized his clients life by disregarding 'established guideing [medical?] procedure".

Cleaning up after shooting lead is no easier than after jacketed. If you get a band load it is more of a pain.

Nonetheless, I continue shooting lead, along with jacketed, because of the variety of lead bullets. Lead is great for the experimenter and tinkerer.

The three holes doesn't mean the gun was ineffective. It often takes a while for a shot from any bullet to take effect.

He was just being cautious and taking the conservative advice that , "Its not over, till its over".

Why use cast bullets ?I maintain theres a little bit of Mizzer in all of us screaming to get out (to say nothing of casting keeping us off the streets)