Got thinking about this,how many rifle shooters at the range, shoot less than 1 inch MOA at one hundred yard with a hunting rifle.Thats all you here now days. Ive not seen this at the rifle range but very,very few times.I don,t think this is the norm.I,am sure there will be some of you, that claim you do this all the time.( Do you really) What is the norm for most hunting rifles at one hundred yards MOA? Just somthing to think about.

i do most of my shooting at a private range but sometimes i have to go to a public range. and from what i see at the public ranges i have been to the animals stand a better chance dying from old age than beeing killed by any of the shooters i see at the range.

My 3 deer rifles will do it once in a while, but are honest 1 1/2" rifles. My buddy has a Pre-64 M70 in .30-06 that will do 3/4" - 7/8" for 3 shots all the time.

Bye
Jack

Now we have to clairify here. Are we talking about hunting rifles or hunters? A lot of hunting rifles are capable of 1 MOA out of the box. Most hunters are not.

Going to get this out of my sytem once more, then try and shut up.
IF you want small groups:
1. Shoot 3-shot groups. Can rationalize it any way you want, but it's a reationalization and a hard-core group of shooters will always treat it that way....we'll nod, smile, and go on with conversion, but you may as well as said you were shooting one bench over from Elvis.
2. Ignore a lot of shots and offer up excuses. Have heard some good ones: Opps, fly landed on my glasses...think I left the bolt handle partly up...think I hit a grass stem at the 50yard berm...sun shifted...held my faced wrong...passed gas just as I touched the trigger (1979 LeRoy Guilly, St. Bernard Range..was so good I foot noted it)..etc. Easy to make a small group if you shoot 12 times and cut out just the 3 that happened to land close together.
3. Cheat...set the target at 79yards...most people can't tell on an un-marked private land.
4. Program your spell-check to replace anything ending with MOA to "1 MOA" (but I think Microsoft only sells that version to gun writters).

Priceless! Especially the gas part.

Now we have to clairify here. Are we talking about hunting rifles or hunters? A lot of hunting rifles are capable of 1 MOA out of the box. Most hunters are not.
i don't believe alot of rifles will shoot 1"moa out of box some yes most no. but i have very little first hand knowledge with nib rifiles as most of mine have been passed on to me or i purchased used. i base my opinion on what i see at the public range. you make a good point about the hunter vs the rifle. i can usually pick up some strangers weapon at the range and shoot better groups than they can. most of the people at the public ranges only shoot a box or two of ammo a year. most of us on this forum proably shoot thousands of rounds a year. the more you shoot the better you get.

arky65

yes sir'ee i do believe it has a lot to do with the shooter... i have a couple of rifles, that i've had to peform a significant amount of work on, "capable" of one ragged hole numerous round groups but they won't always produce on a consistant basis... this depends on how much coffee i've had and how chilly it is outside... and i really need to be in the correct frame of mind...


Jamie

.22-250, .257 Roberts, .30-06, and .338 Win Mag will shoot MOA on demand. My .35 Rem would, with factory 200gr. Federal loads, but they're hard to find. Of course I"ll occasionally pull a shot, it happens!

Just about everything else will stay under 2 inches, with a scope. A couple old military mausers will stay in the 1.5" range, pretty well amazing to me, given bores that aren't all that great.

A few won't stay under 2 inches. One is getting a new barrel, and two others need tuning with the magazine / forends.

Bedding the guns, and tuning the ammo for them, is what makes the difference, generally. Out of the box 1MOA without any bedding & or load development isn't too common... mostly luck.

Agree, with some of the shooting I've seen at the range, it's amazing any critters actually get killed by the majority of hunters.

I might as well admit that yes, I am the kind of range shooter most of you are talking about--or at least I was yesterday evening, when it was (a) my first time ever on a range, (b) my first time using a gun above .22 caliber, and *gulp* (c) my first time using my .300 Wby. Mag.

Yeah. That gun kicked my *** hard. I think I was shooting about 28MOA, seeing as how a distressing number of those rounds never even made it to paper at 100 yards. >_<

But hey, there's a first time for everything. I might have driven home in a bit of a daze afterward, but I think I'm fully recovered this morning. :^P I'm ready to go out and do better, since I realized a few of the many things I did wrong.

(I'm also ready for the instructors at the range to return my freakin' calls so I can take a freakin' lesson already. I'm tired of fumbling around on my own and learning only by reading.)

I know both of the hunting rifles that I own shoot genuine sub-MOA groups every time with the right ammunition. One will shoot Factory Winchester Powerpoints like it's match grade ammo, and the other requires handloads to get the same accuracy (or precision if you're true to the definitions). Most groups in both of these rifles for 3 shots hover just above 1/2" @ 100 yards, but the worst groups I've ever shot with these loads are right around 3/4", so they are very consistent.

You are right, though. Most hunters do not shoot sub MOA with their hunting rifles. When you look at the targets left by our sight-in days at the gun club, you'd think they were shooting #1 buckshot at 100 yards instead of 308's, 30-06's and 300 Win Mags. Your average deer hunter probably only shoots a box of shells just before deer season, and that's about it for the year. On the other hand, the regular's at the gun club who do their own handloading typically shoot very well. If one of these guys has a deer rifle that puts ten shots into a circle the size of a softball at 100 yards, he's looking for something to change and make it better. Your "average" deer hunter would be bragging that any deer within 200 yards is dead meat.

There's a definite difference between shooting sub-MOA once or when the conditions are perfect, and doing it day in and day out.

amndouglas

I might as well admit that yes, I am the kind of range shooter most of you are talking about--or at least I was yesterday evening, when it was (a) my first time ever on a range, (b) my first time using a gun above .22 caliber, and *gulp* (c) my first time using my .300 Wby. Mag.

Yeah. That gun kicked my *** hard. I think I was shooting about 28MOA, seeing as how a distressing number of those rounds never even made it to paper at 100 yards. >_<

But hey, there's a first time for everything. I might have driven home in a bit of a daze afterward, but I think I'm fully recovered this morning. :^P I'm ready to go out and do better, since I realized a few of the many things I did wrong.

(I'm also ready for the instructors at the range to return my freakin' calls so I can take a freakin' lesson already. I'm tired of fumbling around on my own and learning only by reading.)

Don't you have something a little smaller to get your form down on first? You might as well start the dry-firing practice and plinking with the 22 again because you are going to have a terrible case of flinchitis.

amndouglas

Shoot at least once a week at the local gunrange that has points out to 300 yds.

Am constantly tweaking load combinations to develop the most accurate (precision - HA!) for each hunting rifle. Only one MOA will satisfy me, as most of my hunting of game is in the 250 - 300 yd range. The rifle HAS to perform, along with myself, to assure clean kills at these ranges. With the constant practice my skills are sufficient to retain this ability, although as age and eyes advance, it becomes more of a concious effort to control the sight picture.

Don't shoot the big thumpers any longer. The 45-70 Marlin is used only on special occassions for close-in hunts. It shoots 1.25 - 1.50 MOA with chosen loads, which is acceptable for the ranges anticipated.

Yes - having worked at the range and being a frequent visitor, will have to say most folks haven't developed good shooting habits and their groupings show it. Always willing to give pointers and assist in their efforts, but most suffer in silence and shun help.

.

Yes - having worked at the range and being a frequent visitor, will have to say most folks haven't developed good shooting habits and their groupings show it. Always willing to give pointers and assist in their efforts, but most suffer in silence and shun help.

Well, I've gotta say that it's kind of hard to know who/what/when to ask. I'd love help with my shooting, but for now I don't feel comfortable going up to some stranger on the line and interrupting whatever they're doing to ask them a question. Maybe when I've got more experience and feel like less of an outsider that could be more of an option for me.

Don't you have something a little smaller to get your form down on first? You might as well start the dry-firing practice and plinking with the 22 again because you are going to have a terrible case of flinchitis.

amndouglas

Yeah, I'll be doing both of those to work on form and relaxation. I think I'll hit the range with the .300 Wby again before too long, though; I'm concerned that avoiding the gun might create or reinforce the jitters that would cause flinching.

Maybe 90% of the time (or better) it's anticipation of recoil...hate to use "flinch" as it doesn't have to be so drastic as to be visiable, but micro or marco it's still one.

Follow though is the only real key point...stay on that target, eyes open, and ride that recoil. Don't know how else to word it...you don't fight it, you just ride along with it. How that gun comes up off the bags is going to give you a clue to where that shot whent...the shots that rise up in the same pattern each time (and you have to stay glued to that occular to see it rise) generaly form a nice group...the ones that rise up to the left or right are out.

IF you aren't seeing the rise, then you've got your eyes closed...and that's a pretty good indication of at least a micro-flinch. I don't think you can help from a quick blink...the ones we do all day long and never notice them (we kind of fill in the blanks when we noramlly blink).

A good accurate .22RF is good to have along...still have the same objective, but with so little recoil, want to watch that bullet hole form on the target (on good days, with the light coming in over your shoulder at an oblique angle, can often see the little bullets zipping to the target). Have the same goal...to watch carefully to see that the rifle comes up (very slightly in the .22LR's case) the same way...in the .22's case, it's more a twitch...but are looking for a consistant twitch..if you don't see the rifle twitch, you had your eyes closed.

Use to like to practice on over cast days...knowing that if I saw the muzzle flash and the rise of the crosshair at the shot, knew I was folowing though and my shot was good.

Can start with a recoil pad...they make them, but you can use a simple thick leather bad or even a folded face towel. If embarrassed about it, then tape to your shoulder before you put your shirt on and no one will see it. Once you've convienced yourself the rifle won't hurt, you can get to the finer points.

"Ride the recoil" is an excellent way to describe dealing with recoil. Like ribbonstone says, don't fight it, don't try to keep the gun from recoiling, just go with the flow.

A couple of things I would suggest.

1) learn proper form from the bench. An experienced shooter of hard recoiling guns is a big help developing that form. One way to make things less jarring is to assume a trap shooters stance, yet square your shoulders to the target a little more. Elevate your trigger arm's elbow to just less than a 90 degree angle. If you keep your elbow down, you can touch your off hand on where the gun butt would ride and feel the muscle contract, giving more resistance to the rifle. Elevate your elbow and the muscle relax, giving the rifle somewhere to go during recoil and will be less jarring.

2) Get a Past or other type recoil "shield" or pad on your shoulder for the time being.

3) On rifles that recoil all out of proportion to what you are used to, shoot from a standing rest until you do get used to it. Then you may want to go to a kneeling position, then move to the bench. It may take quite a few rounds from each position before learning to deal with it properly. This is where I am with my 500 Jeffery. I have had it about a year now and still have not fired a single shot from the bench. At just over 106 ftlbs of recoil, I don't plan on getting to the bench any time soon, either. I have become fairly familiar with the rifle from the standing position, and accuracy is very good at 50 yards with shots touching using open sights. 100 yard accuracy needs a little more work, but I'm not real concerned with that at this time. I'm shooting to get more use to the recoil. I can improve my accuracy after that.

4) if all of this does not help, the stock length or shape may be all wrong for you. The California Weatherby stocks eat me up for some reason. The more classic styled stocks, like Ruger or Winchester are much better for me. You might try an aftermarket stock of different design, if all else fails.

Back to the original topic, my hunting rifles are all capable of MOA accuracy or precision, or whatever it's called, save one or two. The 7x57, 300 H&H, and 338 Win Mag will do much better when I do my part.

Quick count of the rifles...about 1/2 will never shoot MOA groups. Some just don't have that level built into them, others don't have the sights or ergonomics to get there. Some of them may be MOA rifles if locked into a machine rest...I'll never know.

OF the other 1/2 some can see 1MOA when I'm really on my form and am shooting the best ammo found so far. A few will shoot under 1MOA with nearly any good load...but most of those last group aren't really "hunting" rifles.

Don't feel undger-gunned with the less accurate rifles...are seldom used at anything but close range and have the nice quaility of putting the shots to the center fo the target.

My Win M-70 Boss will certainly do it. I am not always able to do it justice, but the gun is more than capable of 1/2" ro 3/4" groups. It took me a few years to find the load and boss setting combination it really liked.

1985 M-70 winchester westerner will do sub MOA @ 100 with handloads as it came out of the box. Consistent to place five rounds under .75" provided I have a steady rest and don't screw it up myself. Has printed numerous 5 rounders in .5" using Sierra match king HP's. Normal? No. Lucky? you betchya. I've seen several others same brand, same m-70 and none would do better than 1.25" no matter how much the load was tinkered with.

Friend has a m-700 remington in 7mm mag that will also do consistent .75" or better with hand loads yet his others in .308 and .300 mag won't do better than 1".

Have an old savage single shot 30-30 that'll plop 150 gr Nosler BTFP handloads one on top of the other @ 100 yet none of the other 30-30's I've owned could do anything better than 1.5" with most being honest 2" shooters.

Now, these are "out-of -box" and only using load building to achive accuracy. Most rifles shoot half decent from the box as in good enough for hunting and there are some that really stink.

phil get a sissy pad. i use one made by past. i use it when i shoot anything over a 22 centerfire. i use earplug and muffs, the quite helps me relax. i find that if i concentrate on the sight picture i do not anticipate the recoil. dry firing should help you get comfortable with the rifle and learn trigger control. pay attention to how the rifle reacts while you are dry firing, all this helps. we all have tricks we use both mental and mechanical to shoot well. it took me years to develope into a good shooter. most of the good shooters are willing to help and share their knowledge. so when at the range don't be shy. ask questions here and at the range.

fwiw arky65

If I am able to shoot groups of 1" or less with my hunting rifles, that is a significant emotional event. It happens rarely to me at the range from sandbags. A more honest appraisal is between 1" and 2" and then I am a happy man. I get bored to tears about folks reporting getting 1/2" or less groups all the time with their scoped rifles or iron sighted military rifles. It leads me to believe that more sub-MOA groups are shot at the keyboard than on the range. All the best...
Gil

My rifle will definitely produce groups of less than 1 MOA, as I have achieved this.... (indoor range, shooting from a sandbag rest)....after finding suitable ammo. Most of my rifles, with some tweaking, have been capable of this. But, is this duplicated in the field ? Of course not ! I like to know that my rifle will shoot better than I. As for field "accuracy" (or precision) - I zero my .308 so that point-blank range is about 250 yds (200 yard zero). This gives me an approx. 5" "window" , from 0 to 250 yds. So, at any distance within those parameters, I simply aim for "dead centre".... and (hopefully) will be no more than 2.5" high or low - which is quite acceptable, for reliable kills.
As to my practice routine, it is oriented toward just this result. I use 6" diameter targets - the goal being to keep all shots within this circle (from 0 to 200 yards). As it happens, I won't shoot beyond 200 yds, so that is my "maximum" - for practice, as well. I practice sometimes from an improvised rest, often in a prone position, sometimes in a kneeling position, occasionally standing (but not if I can help it). Most often, I use a modified shooting sling ("hastY" style), if standing. After all these years of shooting, on most days, I can keep 80 - 90 % of my shots within the 6" circle. When hunting, I ALWAYS strive to shoot from a rest, however improvised. Often, this is a backpack/ shooting in a prone position.
With practice...and getting to know one's rifle VERY WELL (they all are different)... I think that this standard of accuracy is not remarkable. If I can do it consistently, I would bet most people could.

If you're at a public range, it will have a Range Officer(s) or Range Master(s). You can always ask them for assistance or to be referred to one of the shooters on the line they know will be glad to help you. Most will be more than happy to give you a hand to find out what can be done to improve your shooting form. Also, help in getting the rifle(s) sighted in properly. Just Ask!! :D

Every rifle I own will shoot 0.0 MOA...one shot groups. I think a previous poster had it right...it really depends on how many shots is a "group" and whether you're being honest (esp with yourself). I own a Rem 700 270 that will approach 1MOA with 5 shots using Remington 130gr factory ammo most of the time...esp during the first 20 shots or so. It will do 1.5 MOA all of the time assuming I don't do something to mess it up. I seriously doubt any claims of hunting rifles that will shoot .5 MOA "every time" as is common on the net. I saw one guy bragging about .25MOA consistently with an untuned factory rifle.

But I'm not going to call anyone a liar. It doesn't really matter that much to me what is claimed.

A few things are clear:

1. Most modern bolt action center fire rifles will outshoot their owners. I know mine will. It is truly capable of .75 or better, but I seldom do better than 1.25" with three shots. Nor do I need to. my game shots are all within 250 yds.

2. Almost all of us could improve. A better trigger, bedding, better optics, more load tweaking, and most of all more practice.

3. Nobody needs a sub MOA shooter for big game hunting. If you at 1.75 or below, your in great shape out to 250 yds. If you plan on shooting farther than that, see point #2.

This is good question to ponder. As it was stated, and we can agree, the gun will out-perfrom the shooter 99% of the time. For me, there is true enjoyment in sitting on the bench and putting 100 rnds thru my Savage Super Sporter, and really hoping I can put together a decent grouping. That being said, I hunt with a Tikka T3 .270, and can put together a very good grouping with that. HOWEVER...how many of of us hunt sitting very still, taking all the time we want between shots..generally comfortable, breathing easy, etc...etc? The point being: bench shooting will only tell you what your gun can do when YOURE in the best situation to shoot. As we know, thats not what hunting tends to be. We move alot, we chase, we breath heavy, we have adreneline, sun, rain, trees, wind, etc...

If I can shoot the gun and hit a 6" (kill zone = 10") taget at 100 or 200 yds with some consitency, then I'm doing ok. Btw, at 200 yrd with a fixed 4x scope, that Savage (dated to 1928) in .300Sav hit the target 13 of 20 times. We can get as nit-picky as we want about 1" MOA or sub...but the reality is, the conditions are RARE that provide the opportunity in the field to accomplish that.

Remember, most any shot within the 10" kill zone makes for an unhappy animal.

Moreover, if there really are that many bad shots out there, all the more chance for those who can hit their desired target!!

Finally, if you're not 1" MOA and want to be, there are worse problems to have than to need to spend more time at the range...

anywho, my $.02.

cheers

jonas

The following web sit has a tremendous article on just this topic. Chuck hawks sums up my feeling on the topic exactly. As he says, most MOA groups reported with hunting rifles happen at the word processor, not in the field. Take a look --Mykal
http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm

Well, Mykal -

Try this on for size - as Col. Whelen said "Only an accurate rifle is interesting".

I tend to agree.

I have 3 custom barelled hunting rifles That are capable of .5MOA or under for 5 shot groups [30-06,300WinMag,338WinMag] The 300 I use for long range Elk & Deer.I practice shooting year round. Shooting ground squires and long range targets out to and beyound 800 yards. All have custom match grade medium sporter wieght barells, 27" on 30-06-29" on 300 & 338 I am getting 3150 fps with 180 TSX in the 300Win Mag all guns are Shooting Supeior factory ammo With the Barnes TSX 225 in 338- 168 in 30-06

phil get a sissy pad. i use one made by past. i use it when i shoot anything over a 22 centerfire. i use earplug and muffs, the quite helps me relax. i find that if i concentrate on the sight picture i do not anticipate the recoil. dry firing should help you get comfortable with the rifle and learn trigger control. pay attention to how the rifle reacts while you are dry firing, all this helps. we all have tricks we use both mental and mechanical to shoot well. it took me years to develope into a good shooter. most of the good shooters are willing to help and share their knowledge. so when at the range don't be shy. ask questions here and at the range.

fwiw arky65

Hehe, I'm one step ahead here at least. ^_^ I got a Past "sissy pad" the day I bought the gun and haven't fired a round without it. I know it helped a lot; my shoulder never hurt during firing. (Oddly enough, the only thing that hurt was my index finger just below the first joint from the fingertip. O_o Haven't quite firured out why, but I got some kinda abrasion there.)

Thanks to you and all the others for the excellent advice and encouragement! If all shooters are like y'all then there's no reason I should be afraid to ask questions of people at the range.

-Phil

ribbonstone I really enjoyed your comments, can't say how many times I've heard the like at the range.

I have several "hunting" rifles that are capable of 1 minute accuracy, sadly I no longer am capable in a consistant way of shooting most of my rifles to their capability.

I spent a bunch of years shooting benchrest competition and though I now do not do that because of age and eyesight it is enjoyable to do those small groups. I don't get them as often now as I used to.

One of the big misconceptions in that MOA accuracy in hunting rifles is shooting in the field at game from field positions is completly different than off a bench rest.

Believe me shooting that deer, even a standing deer, offhand at a hundred yards can be extremly challenging regardless of how accurate the rifle is at the bench. Try putting three shots in a target at one hundred yards offhand after you get it sighted in and see. You do a diservice to yourself and the game if you do not practice field position shooting.

I have a solid benchrest and a rifle rest that cradles the buttstock and carries a bag of shot on a tray to bring down the recoil. With this I can shoot to the accuracy potential of the gun more times than not. This really means nothing if I can't hit that game in the field. It just proves that the gun is accurate.

I think one of the biggest problems with hunting weight rifles, especially in the larger higher recoiling models, is the recoil getting in the way of good shooting on the bench. In the field you hardly ever notice the recoil when shooting at game.

If you use one of the new rifle cradles that have a strap that goes around the buttstock between your shoulder and the butt of the gun it actually adds the weight of the rifle rest to the rifle and reduces recoil. The one I like best is called the lead sled. I built my own copy for about $15 in metal.

For Phil_in_a_box

Once you start flinching it is extremly hard to stop without some help. One of the best ways to stop is to have a friend help by loading the gun for you. In the service we called it ball and dummy. You never know if the gun is loaded or not.

If you are flinching you will know it immediatly when you squeeze the trigger. I've seen guys almost jump off the bench when the gun does not go off. By doing good shooting technique, i.e. breathing, trigger control and good sight picture you can control the flinch, but it is much easier if you do not know if the gun is going to fire or just go click. When you see and feel the flinch without the gun going off you can begin to control it.

Good luck with your new 300 and keep on practicing. We all started somewhere.

Well, Mykal -

Try this on for size - as Col. Whelen said "Only an accurate rifle is interesting".

I tend to agree.

Kdub: Great quote. Often used. It is particularily appropriate to quote it in this discussion as the article I sited used it as well, claiming that a rifle hardly need to be capable of shooting MOA to be called "accurate" or interesting. Please give it a read. The point being that sub MOA groups are not at all the objective when shooting a hunting rifle. In much of Whelen's own writing this point is made. For example in "The Hunting Rifle" in the chapter on trajectory, he makes it clear that the concern of the hunter is to hit the vital area, quite a larger spread than an inch on any medium to large size game animal. "No one is going to miss the vital parts on big game with any small errors like that (Townsend Whelen on a 1 3/4 deviation at 100 yards) Jack O'Connor stated in several places in his many books that a Hunter needed to be able to place his bullets in a 2 to 4 inch deviation at 100 yards. Both Whelen and O'Connor never concerned themselves with sub minute of angle groups.

I believe that "MOA" is something of a modern phenomenon when used as a kind of universal standard for all rifles. If you read the old gun writers, they used the phrase hardly every, if ever, and then only to describe basically angles and points in a bullets trajectory. Simply put, it doesn't matter a **** if a hunting rifle can shoot MOA except as a point of interest. The lungs in a dear cover a vertical spread of about 14 to 20 inches. If you can hit that reliably, every time with one shot at any range, your rifle is accurate enough for task and you have done your job as a shooter (again paraphrasing the great Jack O'Connor). These aren't target rifles or target shooting we are talking about. The thing to remember is that the actual tool used in hunting, the rifle, which we nowadays are completely obsessed with, seemed to mean very little to the legends of hunting. They had their favorites, sure, like O'Connor and the Win 70 in .270, but their overwhelming concern was the man behind the rifle doing his job well. What they loved were the challanges hunting and shooting represented for the man, not the rifle. I believe they would have considered our obsession with MOA and SubMOA completely beside the point.

Just my 2 cents --Mykal

One reply reads:

I seriously doubt any claims of hunting rifles that will shoot .5 MOA "every time" as is common on the net. I saw one guy bragging about .25MOA consistently with an untuned factory rifle.

I can't help but wonder if this kind of speculation is only an attempt to justify poorly performing rifles, un-tuned rifles/ammo or improperly matched rifle/ammo combinations.

All too often I see people trying to use bullets their guns are not made to shoot. In all the time I have spent at the gun shops, clubs, ect. I can count on one hand the number of times anyone ever asked about the rate of twist on the rifling or the exact length of the barrel excluding the chamber.

I see so much hype put on "velocity" that it's sickening already. Velocity means NOTHING if you can't produce consistent accuracy. It seems as if people will accept anything as "good enough" as long as they brag about how fast the bulllet goes. Sure, I can load up 85 grain bullets in my .30-06 and quite probably drive them in excess of 4000 fps but I guarantee you they won't print worth nothing so what's the point?

Part two, how many of you hand loaders actually know how to tune a load? How many of you take the time to calculate bullet length and rifling twist BEFORE you purchase a box of the newest techno-bullets? How many of you are willing to try more than two or three different powders and 5 different loads for each under a particular bullet?

How many of you can explain why one powder will produce excellent accuracy while another under the same bullet will not?

Why is barrel bedding allegedly required for a rifle to be accurate?

Can anyone tell me how the standards for military ammo loadings have been obtained?

Here's my point. Many rifles will shoot very well if given the chance. Granted some are just junk and well suited for recycling but most will perform quite well. I've used just about ever brand of factory ammo at some point and very little of it comes close to hand loads yet some will do quite well if it happens to match the rifle's needs. Every brand uses a slightly different bullet, different powder, different charge, ect.

You can take a rifle that will shoot sub MOA with a .308" 180gr Sierra pointed bullet and change to a Remington bullet of the same diameter, shape and weight and open that group up considerably with the same load. Don't believe me, try it for yourself. Not that one bullet is any better than the other, the slight changes of shape, length, CG, ect are enough to cause a mis-match of load and rifle.

Powder burns at different speeds and each rate of burn causes a specific frequency to be applied to the barrel. Attachments on the barrel, contact with the stock and the bullet surface area in contact with the barrel all play a roll in determining where the muzzle is at when the bullet leaves it and what frequency remains in the bullet causing it to become unstabil as it goes down range. Load tuning is the most critical part of rifle shooting and unless you are willing to put the time, money and effort into properly building a load, you will never know what your rifle is capable of.

All through time, most all militaries selected their rifles by what was the most dependable, cheapest to build and maintain and chambered in a suitable caliber based on performance standards of the caliber. Once the test rifles were built to specs, that's when the load development started. Anyone ever wonder why the bullet used in the 7.62 Nato (.308 Win) is 147gr and not 150 or 145? Simply because this was the length, shape and load that performed best in the M-14. It would have been simpler to just use the 150gr bullets used in the .30-'06 M1 round rather than re-tooling and writing a whole new spec book but the bullet would not shoot in the M14 as it did in the M1. Same goes for just about any other military and rifle around the world.

And as for the guy bragging on the .25 MOA, I have no reason to doubt it. I've seen a guy take a new rifle and five rounds of handloaded test ammo and at 100 yds place four of the five rounds in a single ragged hole right from the start. It's not very common this happens but like hitting the powerball, it does happen to some people sometimes. So if you don't like the results you are getting and think that those who are getting excellent groups are just BS'ing you....perhaps you need to spend more time at the loading bench than in front of the computer.

One reply reads:

All too often I see people trying to use bullets their guns are not made to shoot. In all the time I have spent at the gun shops, clubs, ect. I can count on one hand the number of times anyone ever asked about the rate of twist on the rifling or the exact length of the barrel excluding the chamber.

Part two, how many of you hand loaders actually know how to tune a load? How many of you take the time to calculate bullet length and rifling twist BEFORE you purchase a box of the newest techno-bullets? How many of you are willing to try more than two or three different powders and 5 different loads for each under a particular bullet?

How many of you can explain why one powder will produce excellent accuracy while another under the same bullet will not?

Why is barrel bedding allegedly required for a rifle to be accurate?

You can take a rifle that will shoot sub MOA with a .308" 180gr Sierra pointed bullet and change to a Remington bullet of the same diameter, shape and weight and open that group up considerably with the same load. Don't believe me, try it for yourself. Not that one bullet is any better than the other, the slight changes of shape, length, CG, ect are enough to cause a mis-match of load and rifle.

Powder burns at different speeds and each rate of burn causes a specific frequency to be applied to the barrel. Attachments on the barrel, contact with the stock and the bullet surface area in contact with the barrel all play a roll in determining where the muzzle is at when the bullet leaves it

So if you don't like the results you are getting and think that those who are getting excellent groups are just BS'ing you....perhaps you need to spend more time at the loading bench than in front of the computer. .

Markkw: You might want to step a bit lighter here. All the points of information you raise are common knowledge. Every one. I consider myself new to the handloading game, having been at it only about five years, but the different aspects of shooting that effect accuracy that you mention are learned very early in the game. There are folks on this board that have been reloading thirty years. I am quite sure they are aware that powders burn at different speeds, the shape and bearing surface of a bullet effects performance, and that stock and barrel contact points has an effect on accuracy.

I'm not sure where you shoot, but I don't find my fellow shooters at the range where I go quite so ignorant of the basics as you relate in your range/gun shop experience. Last time I went shooting with my Remington 700, the fellow in the next lane was shooting an AR, also in .223. He noticed I was picking up and keeping my cases, so we go talking about handloading. First thing he asked me was the twist rate of my rifle, the bullet brand and weight I had selected, and the powder - and importantly, how all three fit together. The thing I noticed was that a lot of knowledge was simply assumed between the two of us, which was a kind of a way of showing respect. See what I mean? --Mykal

I think a lot of the arguments on the MOA gun come from differing opinions of what the word "capable" means. In other words, is your gun capable of shooting 1 MOA 10% of the time, 50% of the time or 95% of the time? Heck I know I am capable of hitting a hole in one on the golf course, but I haven't done it yet ! I am an engineer who works for a company that sells parts to Ford, GM and Chrysler. For every part we make we have to prove that our manufacturing process is "capable" before we start production. Their definition of proving capability involves gathering a lot of data and performing statistical analysis on it to prove that only a couple parts out of a million will be made outside of the tolerance they want. As for me, I don't proclaim to have a gun of a given level of accuracy until I have shot at least 20 groups and then taken the average of them. Like bartmasterson said, the number of shots in the group makes a big difference. My Tikka 695 has an average of 1.2" for over twenty 5 shot groups and .9" for over twenty 3 shot groups. Is it a MOA gun or not? In 20 years of doing a heck of a lot of shooting and observing guys at my gun club, I personally have seen very few factory sporters shoot under 1 MOA for 5 shots more than 50% of the time, so I also tend to be a bit skeptical of all the .5 MOA guns I read about on the internet, but they may just be using a different way of measuring the performance than I do.

Regardless of what "Chuck Hawkes" thinks of hunting rifles - a fine tuned rifle shooting fine tuned handloads that is capable of MOA accuracy/precision (whoever started that argument, anyway?:D) will be repeatable in MOA for 5 shot groups until the combination is fiddled with or the barrel bore begins to wear, as long as the shootist continues with the shooting technique that lead to the MOA groups to begin with.

There are exceptions, but I don't think many out-of-the-box standard factory rifles are capable of MOA. It takes a good sight, good bedding, good ammo and a good rest to produce this.

If you want to take the time and effort to find the best combination, many firearms CAN be made into MOA or less consistent shooters.

My two main big game hunting rifles are a Browning BAR MK II with the BOSS in .270 and a Browning BLR in .308. The BAR when I do my part will shoot .75-1moa 3 shot groups, 1moa-1.25moa 5 shot groups. My BLR on the other hand will do 1.25-1.5moa 3 and 5 shot groups. For MY hunting conditions any gun that will consistanly shoot 1.5moa is great, (I could really get away with one that shot 2moa) I'm still working on the BLR as I believe it will shoot better than this, or shall I say I believe I can shoot it better that what I have obtained so far. As of yet I don't handload so all this is with factory/custom loaded ammo. I shoot a good bit of stuff from Georgia Arms.

Part of it is the shooter and how he measures accuracy. My tests is to shoot as much as you want before getting serious, but once you get serious, you set out 20 rounds...each and every round will count, no "whoops" or excuses, every one of those 20 rounds has to be included no matter what happens. Can shoot them in two 10round groups, 4 5-round groups, or if you add anbother round can do 7 3-shot groups or 3 7-shot groups. The average of those groups isn't enough to stastically be significant, but it's what I use to decide if a particular load is worth kleeping or not.

The occasional small group doesn't mean jack-spit.

I think that we owe it to our game to shoot as well as possible. Strive for sub-MOA, even if you don't get it! This will ensure more clean kills. My opinion!!! But true, most of us aren't shooting MOA!!!

For Phil_in_a_box

Once you start flinching it is extremly hard to stop without some help. One of the best ways to stop is to have a friend help by loading the gun for you. In the service we called it ball and dummy. You never know if the gun is loaded or not.

If you are flinching you will know it immediatly when you squeeze the trigger. I've seen guys almost jump off the bench when the gun does not go off. By doing good shooting technique, i.e. breathing, trigger control and good sight picture you can control the flinch, but it is much easier if you do not know if the gun is going to fire or just go click. When you see and feel the flinch without the gun going off you can begin to control it.

Good luck with your new 300 and keep on practicing. We all started somewhere.

Yeah, that sounds like a great method! I'll just need to find someone to go out to the range with me. Thanks for the tip!

Markkw: You might want to step a bit lighter here.

*deleted*

Since consistency seems to be the issue now, lets go there. When testing hand loads for group I shoot no less than 5 round groups. Once a load proves promissing in 5 rounds, I load 20 more of them and print them as a single group. This is the only way to verify consistency is to put at least 20 downrange and if you cannot hold a reasonable group with every one, you're wasting your time.

Since we're talking accuracy....what's with the bedding kick? This used to be a cure for barrels that had no other hope or for those that were made way too light. Now it looks like standard issue???

So tell me, why is it so hard to take that some people have OEM rifles out of the box that will shoot? Of course after seeing some of the report on new rifles and the groups they print with factory ammo, I'm not all that impressed with progress myself. Just saw a report on a box rifle that running in the $600 range that printed an average group of 2.6" @ 100 with premium factory ammo. The tester says 5 round groups were used but does not say how many. I'd be little cranky too since my 1937 built $95 Russian 91/30 will print 20 rounds of 1956 built factory ammo inside of 3" @ 100 too.

So before you doubters go off saying that it can't be done or it's not done consistently or that it can only be done on the keyboard...why not just not write anything? The original question I think was "how many had OEM rifles printing MOA". I answered this honestly because I know what my rifles will do and how they will do it and when they will do it. If anyone still doubts the consistency of my '06, I'll put it up against any customized or OEM sporter any day of the week...only bring money you can afford to loose on a 20 round group.

I can shoot moa when I'm at my best. It doesn't matter nearly as much to me as it used to. The most accurate rifle I've shot was a Rugger M77R in 243 with a 3-9 Tasco on it. I could fit 3 holes completely under a dime from 100 yds with that rifle and my handloads using Win 785 powder. No powder I've tried shoots as well as the discontinued Win 785. I had a Win M70 featherweight (1983 push feed model) in 270 that would put 3 Sierras completely under a quarter. Not bad for a 6-3/4 lb mass-produced deer rifle.

To my notion, 3-shot groups tell me more than I need to know. Actually, 2 shots tell everything I need. If I can print 2 holes within 1/2 inch of my intended point-of-impact from 100 yards, that is one dang accurate rifle in my book. Seldom do I get or need more than one shot at game anyways.

Very few guys can shoot moa. I'm rather proud that I can. That's one reason why friends come to me with their gun issues - that plus I have yet to charge anyone. :)

Live well

Alright guys, let's keep it civil.

After reading all of the responses, I have 3 observations:

1. Those who say 1 MOA accuracy from a hunting rifle is not necessary, are correct.

2. Those who say it is not possible, have defeated themselves before they ever start.

3. Those who do not attempt to accomplish this, are very much limiting themselves as riflemen.

To my notion, 3-shot groups tell me more than I need to know. Actually, 2 shots tell everything I need. If I can print 2 holes within 1/2 inch of my intended point-of-impact from 100 yards, that is one dang accurate rifle in my book. Seldom do I get or need more than one shot at game anyways.



That's a good point, and I've considered that one before. If I hear one shot in the woods, I assume the intended target is dead. If I hear two, it might be dead, but if I hear 3 or more, the deer is already in the next county and the hunter is finding things to blame it on.

Except for the extra paper it would take, as hunters, we would all be better off if we just shot one-shot groups at multiple targets. The perfect load would put the bullet in the bullseye every time, and a good enough one would put it in the kill zone every time.

On the other hand, it is comforting to know that your rifle will not be the weak link that causes a missed shot. A rifle that has produced many small groups also offers that extra margin of error on the shooters part. The errors caused by adrenaline, the accelerated heart-rate from a miles long stalk, a less than perfect rest, etc, basically all of the factors that are not present in our normal shooting routine.

amndouglas

All my hunting rifles shoot cloverleaf at 100 yards, if any of them did not, I would not own them, thats just the way I am, I custom work loads for each and every rifle, seems I can get all my rifles to shoot clover leaf once I work a custom load.
Of course this is benched shooting with good optics, open sights are much harder to shoot cloverleaf at 100 yards. Aim small hit small Rick.

OK GUYs, I asked for it and you gave it to me. Thanks for the info. I will be happy to shoot anywhere around1" moa for hunting and will try and keep it there. rifle270mag-Thanks

Wow, what a great thread. Briefly put I have been on the side that has felt that MOA as a standard is overused today. Having stated that on this thread, I recently went shooting with my son at an outdoor range. We were shooting a Ruger 77/17 from a sandbag rest. The gun was shooting plenty well enough to hunt medium sized varmints out to 100 yards, but I noticed it was not grouping up to par. The groups were around 1.5 for 5 shots. I had to think about my position in this very thread when I found myself thinking, "Darn, this thing should shoot MOA easy." That made me think things over a bit. Even though accuracy was plenty for purpose, I found myself trying to figure out why it was over MOA. Trigger? A bedding job? Anyway, the point is, I have to admit to a slight change of position in that MOA might not be necessary, but how can you help but wish for it and try for it? --MB

I have read in some obscure publication that the practice of 1" MOA/100yds is just the starting point. What does it do at 150/200/300yds. It may not be critical if you never shoot over 100yds, but I am going to check mine next time.

I Wanted To See Where This Was Going To Go Before Putting My Two Cents In......i Can Honestly Say That All My Rifles Shoot Moa Or Better. Why They Do Is Because I Put The Time And Effort Into Them To Shoot That Way. Not All Guns Will Shoot Moa No Matter What You Do To Them And In That Case I Get Rid Of It. I Know That May Sound Harsh But What I Enjoy Is Getting Tight Groups And Doing The Work To Getting The Results. I Now Have A A-bolt In Win 300 Mag.out Getting Hand Lapped, Fluted, Lugs Lapped, Custom Stock, Reciever Fluted, Custom Brake To Replace The Boss Unit, Chamber Polished, Crown Recut. The Gun Did Shot Just Over 1'' At 100 Yds Which Is Great But Like I Said I Enjoy Making Them Shoot Better. I Have A Savage 12 Flvss In 22-250 That Will Give A Bench Rest Gun A Run For The Money And I Also Did The Work To Get It To Do That. Reloading Is The Way To Go In My Opinion And Working The Brass Also Helps. It Takes Alot Of Time But Shooting Is What I Enjoy And Finding The Best Combo Keeps Me At The Range Longer And More Often.

While bedding and trigger work aren't the end all of making small groups, it CERTAINLY is a factor, my M70 featherweight stayed about 1.25 to 1.5 until I had the action bedded and the trigger lightened. The first group back from the gunsmith was a cloverleaf (only had test ammo for 3 shot groups) which brings to something I read from Van Zwoll, if you shoot three and they aren't close, the other two aren't going to tighten it up any, so in the beginning of load testing I always shoot 3 shot groups to weed out the bad ones

I like that,"the other two aren't going to tighten it up any." Now that is a jewel and it will save those two for the next 5 shot group.

Fellows,

Old Pap Paw, the best hunter I have ever known or spoken with, told me his Rem 742 270WIN shot about "this far" (held up his index finger on each hand about six inches apart) left at 100 yards. I asked the old man how he killed anything with a gun that shot like that, and he said, "Aim it 'this far' to the right." Pap is a Boone and Crocket veteran, and the shot he made on his 26 point whitetail was as impressive to me as the deer.

MOA is an excellent measure of confidence, and confidence is king when a fellow is dropping the hammer on something.

I own nine sporting rifles that I fool about with, two of them will shoot less than MOA with most everything put through them. Three of them consistantly will shoot MOA with loads they like. One of them will occassionally shoot just under MOA. The best one of them has done is shoot just over MOA. And the last two, well......they average around 2" or bigger, and niether one has ever shot MOA.

I will hunt with all of them, except one of the last two, as I have no confidence in my ability to hit with it.

MOA, Two inches, six inches, etc. confidence is king.

Steve

no confidence in a 2" rifle? as long as it was the same 2" I would take em

Another factor which may have been mentioned already is that most hunting rifles have rather thin barrel contours. This means if you don't let the barrel cool after a few shots your groups may open up. I can shoot under an inch with my Weatherby Mark V Lightweight Synthetic if I let the barrel cool when it gets too hot to touch (about 3 shots).

Another factor which may have been mentioned already is that most hunting rifles have rather thin barrel contours. This means if you don't let the barrel cool after a few shots your groups may open up. I can shoot under an inch with my Weatherby Mark V Lightweight Synthetic if I let the barrel cool when it gets too hot to touch (about 3 shots).

Jackfish -

I'm wondering if what you're seeing is: the group opening up, or the point of impact changing? Why I bring this up is: our nominal range session is btwn 400-600 centerfire rounds - given that, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to allow the barrel to cool (and get the work done). When we started shooting (when dirt was new, and the mtns still forming), we were taught that it was the change in (barrel) temperature that made the difference; and there wasn't anything inherently wrong with shooting a warm barrel. As such, our first two shots, on a cold barrel, are always off and away from the rest of the following group... but after that we try to keep the barrel warm [never warmer than one would be willing to leave their fingertips on for a couple of seconds], and keep running the rounds through. 600 rounds nominally takes 2.5-3hrs to chrono.

W/re guns capable of 1 moa - yes, there are some that'll never be there, but most will shoot better than most shooters (we're assuming a 10 shot group [less is statistically almost meaningless]). Some guns will shoot almost any load well (have a m70 264 and 300wsm that are that way); but most require load tuning, **especially** leverguns...

W/re what it takes to improve one's shooting to be a 1 moa shooter - only one answer: hours hours and more hours at the bench. We chrono'd 18300 cf rounds last year, 17k the year before, 20k the year before that etc. Being able to get into "the zone" comes easier with time. Other than that: careful reloading.

It'll be very interesting to see how RDPM3 goes with the 20 shot groups for the precision match [just too easy to get lucky with 5 shot groups].

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. we find shooting through a chrono is absolutely important - without muzzle end data it's almost impossible to diagnose target end problems. [a load with a SD of 4fps over 10 shots that's not shooting, is either a gun or gunner problem; a load with 50fps SD's will never shoot, no matter what... but one can waste a lot of bullets, time and money, trying.] When we're developing loads for RDPMxx, we're looking for exactly one thing: very small SD's and ES's - once we find them, then it's simply a case doing the shooter's job to turn them into small groups - without the small stats, one might as well go fishing.

Your point about being able to shoot over a chrono to help isolate any possible problems is a very good idea... except for us that have no access to one. So I have to ask you something... If you are not a handloader (like me) and you want to know if it's the rifle, the factory ammo, or yourself that's causing the "problem" ... what would you suggest be the best way to go about finiding it? I would hate to ever get rid of a rifle because "it doesnt shoot well enough" when I come to find out that it was the particular ammo, or some small small small easy easy easy cheap cheap cheap thing that could easily be adjusted to make all the difference.

I guess that goes for anything... whether it be bad bedding, torqued action due to overtightening of action screws, needing to lap the lugs on the bolt, scope being mounted off center and/or torqued due to scope rings needing lapping ... or scope rings being 'off' due to an action that's not true... the list goes on and on. I'm just looking for advice from the "pros" out there ... but you first have to understand that you have only yourself ,your rifle, and your factory ammo out there when you're trying to decide what to do when your rifle isn't grouping right.

thanks

you can get a chrono fairly cheaply, look at shooting chrony's they start at around 70 bucks or so. really, you should look into reloading, if you are considering lug lapping, etc. you aren't really likely to realize the true accuracy potential of a rifle shooting factory fodder

I am considering handloading... but I have to work up to it slowly. Unfortunately the wife won't let me just go out and get all the "stuff" that I would want/need to start up. To briefly explain, we have a new child and want to have another very soon, so spending money on something that she could care less about and doesn't understand the need for... well, that just wouldn't work right now.

Back on point... Yes, I could spend $70 on a chrono, a little here and a little there on dies, brass, bullets, powder, primers, scales and measures, trimmers, presses, boxes to organize all that stuff in, etc etc etc... but that stuff all adds up quickly. For all that, and whatever other "toys" I would want/need to have a good setup for reloading, I could by another rifle...

Ok... so back to what I was really getting at is this... Is there a good easy way to get some reasonable evaluation of your rifle if it's not shooting that well? My guess is no. This is why I think so many people don't bother with trying to "fix" rifles that dont shoot well... they just dump them for as much as they can, then use that money to help fund a new rifle. Thing is, you might work on a single rifle for a while and it will never shoot well... so the money you spent is wasted, truly. But if you just ditch that rifle and go get a high quality rifle after that you've probably saved a lot of money - or at least spent close to the same amount you would have w/ the old rifle and gunsmithing charges.

Based on that, I'm starting to believe that if a rifle mfg. will guarantee you a 1 MOA rifle out of the box, you'd be a fool not to buy it... that is, if your goal is to have a real shooter. Then you know if it doesnt shoot, it's gotta be you. Or, if it isn't you, the rifle will be fixed/replaced to meet the guarantee... and remember, that guarantee is to shoot 1 MOA w/ factory ammo - so just imagine what you could do with handloads perfectly tuned to that rifle.

In the mean time, I'm going to try to keep all what I've learned in this thread in my head while I'm out at the range breaking in my new CZ 550 American .30-06... right now I'm just waiting on the scope to get here. Hopefully I won't have to convince myself that anything outside 1" groups at 100yds is ok... this rifle should be a shooter according to everyone I've talked to.

Oh well... just pondering all the intangibles about this subject made me have to stop to post all that. Hope it helps keep the thread alive and provoke more interesting conversation.

cheers.

WGM,

Maybe you ought to wait and try out your new rifle before you get too worked up over nothing. We all worry too much about things that never actually happen.

My advice is to wait until you get your new toy all set up, and then try different brands/weights/styles of ammo in your new rifle one or two at a time until you are satisfied with the results that a certain load gives you. As long as you're flexible and you have not already determined that you will only shoot brand X's XXX grain shells, you should be fine.

You might just have a pleasant surprise like I did with my 270 and find out that the first cheap box of shells that you try shoots great. At worst, it will probably only take you a few boxes to find out what your rifle will shoot well. If you still want to make sure that you aren't the weak link, then have a friend who you know is a good shooter take a stab at it with each box you try. It will probably cost you a bit less than a chrony.

By the way, a Chrony's really not going to save you any money if it just verifies that your factory load is inconsistent. You will normally be able to tell by your targets having vertical strings. As a handloader, they are much more useful because they give you a good idea of what pressures your loads are developing. I wouldn't recommend one for most people, unless you're really curious about how inflated the factory numbers are.

amndouglas

I think you can get an idea of what a new rifle is capable of in one range session. As suggested, just try several different brands of cartridges. Hit your buddies up for any leftover boxes of factory ammo they don't want. The more variety, the better. All that matters is that you're 'auditioning' the rifle with as many combinations as possible.

Fire one group with the rifle "as is." Fire a second group with a business card or the like wedged into the forearm under the barrel. That will give you an idea how much the rifle will respond to tuning, and if it's worth the effort to re-bed it. Do that with each load you can find.

The best group you get out of that range session will most likely be the benchmark for you handloads. At the very least, you'll have a good idea what factory loads to stay with, and that's worth knowing.

If a couple of groups are great, you got yourself a good rifle. If none of the groups are very good, then unfortunately, it's hard to draw conclusions because there's a bunch more ways for things to go bad than for things to go good.

Good luck!

1 MOA groups are less common than you might think from reading these forums - "everything" gets exaggerated and people tend to report only their best stuff. If you you want a sub 1 MOA hunting rifle, you may need to have one built and workup a load.

You hear it and read it and pretty soon you begin to believe that sub MOA or worse yet, sub 1/2 MOA is the holy grail of hunting rifle shooting but what does "sub MOA" really mean when you aren't on the bench at the range all nice and comfy and well sandbagged in?

*FIRST DISCLAIMER* I do try to keep 5 shot groups inside one inch.

The thing is, what can I do standing up on my own two hind legs when it comes time to take the shot on bambi or gentle ben or little mr grouse? If my rifle shoots well on the bench, then I need to work on making sure that I ***NOTICE*** I said, "making sure I", can do the job standing up, leaning against a tree/bush/fence, kneeling, sitting, prone/ over my rucksack, whatever. And I practice shooting THAT way.

You can have the best tuned rifle right out of the box, or the best tuned custom rifle shooting the very best possible handload combination for THAT rifle that prints .2500 inches center to center from the bench, but all that means when it comes time to kill an animal is that you know where that bullet will go when you are shooting from the bench.

That's nice.

But do you know if can you shoot without the bench? Lots of people practice at the bench, but do they practice from "field" positions? That is something I almost never see at the range. I actually surprised the range officer two weeks ago by standing up and shooting, using only my sling for a brace. I was surprised to hear that not many people practice shooting with "precision" away from the bench.

*SECOND DISCLAIMER* If you only use your hunting rifles as benchrest shooters, this has no bearing for you.

*THIRD DISCLAIMER* I am not a statistician or ballistician and I do not play one on television. You may take and use this post as you see fit without recourse against the author. This author has good days and bad at the range and readily admits to having days where only the gravity of the planet sucks more than his shooting.
(but that is what keeps me practicing)

As for the average precision of a hunting rifle at 100yards? This is a w.a.g. (wild 'shorter word for donkey' guess) but I would have to say about two inches from a rest and at least double that offhand.

I know I know, scary when the truth leaks out and someone says not all rifles shoot like lasers...

Maybe we should have a postal match based on who is trying the hardest to do well but shoots the worst groups? :)

Using a MOA hunting rifle/ammo combination means only one thing - the rifle and load is ready to go and do their part. The rest is up to me.

Knowing the rifle/ammo is capable give me the confidence to take that long shot with a good brace. If I miss (sometimes do), then I know it was me and not the gear.

That's what practicing from a bench and tweaking the rifle/ammo does. Establishes the parameters and eliminates them as any excuse for a missed shot.

Practicing in all the various hunting positions with the established parameters will hone your ability to properly place the shot - that's a given. No quarrel with that.

Let's not knock the use of a bench in developing the rifle/ammo into the best possible shooter, though. You can't establish squat standing on your hind legs offhand shooting expecting to determine whether your rifle, ammo or you is causing the buckshot pattern. Use the bench to get the combination as fine tuned as you can - then stand up, kneel down, sit or go prone to find out how well you hold up under simulated field conditions. You'll then know the spreads are caused by your unsteady holding, rather than errant rifle or ammo.

Yeah, I know, I should have put in that knowing where your shots go by shooting from the bench and making sure your rifle is dialed in at the beginning. Mea culpa. It happens that I do let my fingers type ahead on their own once in a bit. I mean, I can't knock shooting from the bench once you have "the" handload worked up for your rifle. It really is the only way I know of making sure your sights, optic or otherwise are aligned properly with your rifle and the ballistics of your handload or factory load. Like, my 30-06s favorite shoots a 180 grain Sierra or Speer SPT at 2765 fps and is +4.20" at 100, +4.30" @200 and -3.8" @300 for a max PBR of 335 yards... But once you know that the machinery works, you have the weak link to work on and that is what my focus was.

At the beginning, rifle270mag asked about 100 yard hunting rifle accuracy. Most of the posts had been speaking of bench accuracy. Maybe that is why I ommitted bench shooting to write about field shooting accuracy as it looked like it was pretty well covered. The two are different and lead to different results. Well at least they differ for me but hey, Im just human. :) I sure other results will vary. Besides, he asked if people really do shoot sub MOA all the time. He did not specify how we might do that shooting.

Now that I have ratted myself out and admitted to shooting groups twice as large as my bench shot groups I will hang my head in shame. Oh woe is me! :D

I thought he was asking how many of us had hunting rifles that would do sub MOA

I thought he was asking how many of us had hunting rifles that would do sub MOA

I thought the same thing as you jb12string...

I thought he was asking how many of us had hunting rifles that would do sub MOA

That was the original question and it got answered pretty well early on. But this has really been an interesting thread, one of the longest I've seen, where many shooters are discussing their thoughts about shooting for accuracy. So enjoy. --Mykal

Interesting, and humorous discussion.

For Phil in a Box, I'd recommend you get one of those strap on shoulder pads. I have one, and I use it. And, a good set of earplugs. My brother shot a 300 Wthby mag for years, and got worse and worse in the accuracy dept. He developed a bad flinch, and began missing a lot of elk. He still has the rifle, but he now shoots a plain vanilla Mod 70 30-06, and does well with it.

Concerning accuracy, I have a Browning A-bolt 338 mag stainless stalker that shoots honest 1/2" groups, with quite a few different bullets, actually. As another poster put it, most hunters aren't up to the accuracy their rifle is capable of. I'm not a once-a-year range visitor either. A friend of mine has a range with gongs out to 500 yds. We regularly practice offhand shooting, as well as bench shooting. Practice, practice, practice......but there will be some bad shooter rifles out there at times too. I haven't come across any, but a friend has.

Stop reading gun writers storys, theyll make you go blind and insane at the same time. 1 M.O.A. should be left for target shooters. The average size of N.A. kill zones are about the size of your average paper plate. I sugest we use a 1 p.p. acuracy guide for us that hunt. Most modern rifles shoot better than we can shoot them. Unless you hunt things that want to stomp you,eat you,or just knock you around for fun a 1 p.p acuracy is just fine.

Aim small , miss small. It is my worst fault with the bow or firearm when the adrenaline kicks in. You absolutely have to shoot to hit a golf ball or smaller spot to consistantly make clean kills on game. I know. I am the worlds worst at rushing the shot and shooting at center mass.

The average size of N.A. kill zones are about the size of your average paper plate. I sugest we use a 1 p.p. acuracy guide for us that hunt.

How do you figure? If im going to go rabbit, fox or 'yote hunting i better be able to shoot better than a paper plate. if you cant shoot MOA then just say it, don't make up excuses why you can't or reasons why you dont need to. ****, i rarely shoot MOA and i bet there are lots of people on here who dont reguraly shoot minute of angle.

I quess the jist of it should be Strive for MOA , but don't go home and hit you self in the head with a hammer if you fall short . But I think packin it up and going home after nicking the edge of a paper plate is a dismal parameter to deem yourself "hunt ready" .


444fitch

I suppose, if we all want to be truly honest, the definition of the minute-of-angle group needs to have some more stipulations put on it.

#1) Are we measuring the maximum distance (center to center) of all shots and finding them to be under 1.047 inches @ 100 yds, or are we measuring the maximum distance (on center) from the desired point of impact of all the shots in the group? What if it shoots .5 inches at 100 yards and 3 inches at 200 yards? Would it still be sub-MOA?

#2) How many shots need to be in the group to call it MOA? 1, 3, 5, 10, infinitely many?

#3) How many times must the group be repeated, or must it always shoot under 1.047 inches at 100 yards? What if "groups open up in high winds", or "on hot days", or "with a warm barrel", or "when copious amounts of caffeine are consumed", etc?

By the following definition, I have two genuine sub-MOA hunting rifles.

#1) All shots were measured center-to-center and the maximum distance was less than 1.047 inches at 100 yards (no unmeasured flyers).

#2) All groups were 3-shot groups.

#3) Thus far, all groups shot from a bench (regardless of current conditions) have shot under 1" with certain loads (handloads or factory).

My Sako 75 in 308 Win has shot groups measured at .695, .846, .500, and .538 on four different days with my current hunting load (168gr CT Ballistic Silvertips over Varget). These are the only groups shot with that particular load, so it has yet to shoot over an inch

My Winchester M70 in 270 Win with Winchester Power Point 130 gr ammunition has never shot a group over 1 inch at 100 yards from a bench since I bought it in 2000. I don't have exact measurements for most of those groups because I did not handload and keep records of it at that time. However, all of them could be covered with a nickel and some with only a dime.

By my definition, they are sub-MOA, although by someone else's, they may not be.

For hunting purposes, the combination of the rifle and the hunter (myself), both packages are still sub-MOA from a bipod or prone positions. Sitting, somewhere between 1 and 2 MOA. Kneeling and offhand, I'm nowhere close, but still sub-Minute of deer if he's close enough. Even though I do practice from these positions, albeit mostly with a 22, there isn't the same adrenaline rush with target practice as there is with actual hunting. So, if dat turdy point buck (yooper speak for 30 pointer) happened to wear a paper plate over his vitals, and I didn't hit it. I seriously doubt that I'd be blaming my rifle.

amndouglas

way of topic, but is a yooper someone from the Upper Peninsula?

A sure way to start another thread, so I'll answer so others don't have to - yes, a "yooper" is a supposedly superior person that resides in the Upper Pennsula of Michigan. They walk on water, never sweat and are very humble, modest folks! :p

Like many threads on this site.... :p ..... the MOA rifle is a jouney, not a destination.

Get half of your rifles shooting this well, and you'll not only be an accomplished shooter, but an ace reloader, and pretty good general gunsmith as well.

In short.... you'll go from a run-of-the-mill backstop-blaster to a certified, bona-fide, incurable GUN CRANK of the first order!

Besides.... I just LOVE it when my friends ask "hey, why do your rifles shoot so much better than mine?" :D :D :D

Sorry to take that one off topic at the end. Anyway, I'm not a yooper but a troll because I come from under the bridge in the lower peninsula. I have known a few, though.

To continue on with the original topic...

How many of us would put money on our ability to shoot sub-MOA groups while chock full of adrenaline, even if the rifle being used was a laser? I think that's why we all need to strive for the greatest accuracy we can get from our equipment because we need to allow ourselves a margin of error. Hitting a paper plate size target from a bench with a good rest and favorable conditions is just not going to cut it when you have that one moment to shoot a huge buck with no benchrest, less than ideal conditions, and a flood of adrenaline. Without that margin of error, your potential once-in-a-lifetime trophy becomes a story about the one that got away, or even worse, the one that got gutshot and ran for miles before dying a slow and excruciating death.

amndouglas

By my limited 41 years of life so far, observations reveal that consistent sub-MOA shooters started early in life shooting. They grew up shooting coyotes in full stride, rockchucks and squirrels from field postions, and whitetails (or whatever game your area has) busting from the brush, offhand. That has nothing to do with benchrest shooting where you actually test to see if you can shoot sub-MOA. However, those are the people that have honed their muscle skills from early on, and those skills are brought to the bench. And the results from the bench simply enforce their confidence in their abilities and equipment.

Having stated that, I'm sure there are accomplished competition shooters that started much later in life and also attained those skills, but by likely a much more intense training regimen and steeper learning curve.

Yeah, I'll be doing both of those to work on form and relaxation. I think I'll hit the range with the .300 Wby again before too long, though; I'm concerned that avoiding the gun might create or reinforce the jitters that would cause flinching.


Have a muzzlebreak? They're ugly, but they work. I HAD a WBY 30-378 and it kicked a little harder than my 30-06 with the factory muzz.

I too am getting away from the thumpers. Got a Sako .308 and loving its accuracy and lighter recoil. Definitely shoots 1"MOA out of box! Proper trigger can make all the difference in the world. Gonna put a 25/284 together soon. Facinating round to me.

Take the lessons offered at your range and get back out there and bone-up on that 300 WBY. Like my dad said when I was a kid and afraid to fight...."all it/he can do is kick your ***!" No need to flinch! Flinching doesn't make it kick any lighter. Take the ***-whuppin' off that impressive round, but make her shoot straight. Y'all will learn to respect each other soon enough.

Yo Auburn Tiger... I'm a Bayou Bengal Tiger over here in Baton Rouge!!! I don't know whether to say hello and welcome you, or tell you to kiss my rear! LOL Man, you guys got shafted this year by the BCS ... I wanted so badly for the SEC to be "officially" on top two years in a row, but hey, stuff happens...

Sorry that none of that is gun related, but no way I could let that pass me by... I think that the LSU vs. Auburn rivalry is about as hardcore as it gets! And on that note, I'll give the thread back to it's original topic...

I have heard the term yooper before, but what it really means just hit me last night

My real name is Jeff Daniels but you can call me Remnar.
Babadaboom!

alot of good posts here, alot of info shared.

I believe it all comes down to consistancy.
consistancy in ammo, wether reloads or not.
Consistancy in position
Consistancy in technique.....a must.
Consistancy in PRACTICE!
you cannot pick up a rifle once a year come Oct./Nov. and expect stellar results.

Good thread, great opinions...have at it !

Went to the range this weekend. Beautiful VT winter day: sunny, a bit of a breeze...probably mid 30's. All by myself. Put up the 'Shoot N' See' target at 100M.

Here's the set up:

-from a bench
-no 'fancy' rest or even sand bags: I rest the gun on the
top of my range bag with a sweatshirt or jacket on top of
the bag.
-shooting a Savage Super Sporter 40/45 in .300Sav (dated
to 1928)
-shoot exclusively Rem Express Core-Lokt, 150gr.
-fixed 4x Bushnell scope

Shot a total of 60 rnds at that distance. The first 40 all hit the target, over 50% grouped in the 9-10 rings area. Admittedlty, I sprayed a bit. Noticed many were grouping high and right. So i adjusted the sight an inch down and an inch left. Well, the next 20 were a bit different:

-of the fist 6 rounds, 3 holes were touching, a fouth was within an inch. #5 and #6 sprayed some and were within 5 inches. Now, w/o photo evidence, you'll have to take my word for it! I almost stopped after those 6. I know, I know, not the traditional 3-rnd groups, but I'm not concerned. The rest of that box shot similarly...not much of the center of the target left when I was done.

Here's what I take away from this:

1) This is not a pristine gun, and it will shoot SUB MOA!
2) The gun is well over 50 yrs old, and it will shoot SUB
MOA!
3) A fixed 4x scope does not present much of a picture,
and it will shoot SUB MOA!
4) Not using premium ammo and it will shoot SUB MOA!
5) Not using a fancy set up and it will shoot SUB MOA!

6) And perhap most important for discussion related to hunting: almost every one of the 60 shots I took, bullseye or not, would have likely stopped a deer.

When the gun didn't shoot where I 'think' I aimed, it was ME, not the gun!!! The scope was off for the first 40 rnds...and even then, it was grouping fairly consistently.

And this thought hit me while I was packing up to head home: if everone of us in the woods had one-shot/one-kill hunts every time we had the chance, two things would happen- 1) we'd have ALOT fewer deer, and thus 2) we'd have alot less hunting. That there are variables, that we WONT always make our shots...thats what makes the 'sport' argument at all defensible.

The gun works fine, it is the person behind it that always adds the challenge!

cheers

jonas

Where will your 1st round on a clean barrel be now that you have adjusted after barrel being fouled? You may have cleaned during shooting. You did not say but what would have been a 5 shot group exactly?

That being said, it sounds like you had a great time and busted a lot of caps. I would have had a headache but still had fun.

GOOD SHOOTING!

Where will your 1st round on a clean barrel be now that you have adjusted after barrel being fouled? You may have cleaned during shooting. You did not say but what would have been a 5 shot group exactly?

That being said, it sounds like you had a great time and busted a lot of caps. I would have had a headache but still had fun.

GOOD SHOOTING!

ChiefRID, you bring up a point that's always made my go crazy when trying to figure out. I like to clean my gun after shooting it and putting it away for a while. With my life, it's almost impossible for me to know how long that rifle will sit there before my next range session or hunt. Now, when going to the range, I dont care about starting w/ a clean barrel because it's the range, and I can foul to my liking before I start scoring my shots...

But when you pick up that clean rifle at 3:00am to drive out to the hunting camp to be in your stand before sunrise, you're kinda in a pickle, aren't you? No opportunity to shoot a few rounds to foul the barrel, and no way to know for sure where that first shot or two is going to go.

Now, if I stay realistic about it, I would guess (and hope) that most of us have rifles that shoot well enough that even having a flyer on that first shot won't cause the bullet to miss the "kill zone" , at least not on deer sized game, which is my main concern and hunting pleasure. I just wish there was a way to get your rifle "ready" to shoot immediately after cleaning it so that there would be no need for "fouling rounds" ...

Which brings me to the end... How do you all deal with that scenario? Or better yet, do you even think about it at all? I'm not trying to overthink things, but it seems legitimate enough to me that it be asked and addressed.

WGM,

You just gave me a good idea. I was just using pulled bullets and medium loads of powder for my fouling shots at the range, but the next few times I go, I might just shoot one of my deer loads through a clean, cold bore with nothing more than a patch to remove excess oil, like I do if I'm hunting. I'll save the targets and see if they're consistent or not.

It might take me a few trips to get a really good idea, and at the the rate I've been making it to the range lately, it may be a long time as well. I'd still be happy to share my results if I ever get around to it. Have any of you other guys ever tried it to see?

amndouglas

WGM,

You just gave me a good idea. I was just using pulled bullets and medium loads of powder for my fouling shots at the range, but the next few times I go, I might just shoot one of my deer loads through a clean, cold bore with nothing more than a patch to remove excess oil, like I do if I'm hunting. I'll save the targets and see if they're consistent or not.

It might take me a few trips to get a really good idea, and at the the rate I've been making it to the range lately, it may be a long time as well. I'd still be happy to share my results if I ever get around to it. Have any of you other guys ever tried it to see?

amndouglas


That's actually how I sight in my hunting rifles. My first shot with my hunting load, out of a cold barrel that has had just been dry patched to remove excess oil if there is any, shoots 2 inches high @100yds on the first shot. The other shots as the barrel heats up print a little off from that, but remember its the first shot that counts. I check this every time I go to the range, first shot much be 2inch high, dead center. it works for me, YMMV

..... I like to clean my gun after shooting it and putting it away for a while. .......

..... I just wish there was a way to get your rifle "ready" to shoot immediately after cleaning it so that there would be no need for "fouling rounds".

Which brings me to the end. How do you all deal with that scenario? Or better yet, do you even think about it at all? I'm not trying to overthink things, but it seems legitimate enough to me that it be asked and addressed.



WGM,

Two of my hunting friends have deer rifles that will shoot to a different point with the 1st round from a clean/oiled barrel. They both sight them in before the season opens, clean'em, fire one shot and leave'em dirty till the seasons over.

I never clean till the groups open up

I always clean my gun after the range session (at the range, with the Midway blue box kit so I leave the smell outside), and run a lightly oiled patch through it last.....except during hunting season. During hunting season, I shoot one fouler through it after cleaning.

I can't recall any of my rifles being off the group more than 1.5" with an oiled barrel though.

I do wipe down the outside, but with modern smokeless powder is there really a need to swab out the bore everytime, especially if the guns are kept in a dry environment

I do wipe down the outside, but with modern smokeless powder is there really a need to swab out the bore everytime, especially if the guns are kept in a dry environment

I have a friend - and as another poster pointed out - that doesn't clean his rifle hardly ever. He has a 22-250, Ruger I think it was, that he must have put 100's of rounds through without cleaning. We gave it a thorough cleaning and it shot no better (and it didn't shoot badly anyway, but it wasn't a 1/2"'er either).

I can't bring myself to do that as old habits and early training (clean that rifle!) are hard to break. He uses the heck out of his equipment though, and I'm not sure I'd accept a gun from him if he were giving it to me! I suspect it has a lot to do with the quality of barrel that is on there, and how much crud it holds, and the powder used, whether a particularly dirty one or not.

I for one will clean my rifles, because I know a clean one won't corrode, but I agree, if in a dry environment, there's low risk. I've never lived in a humid environment, but I suspect cleaning is more important then.

I am only 23 so I never have had to deal with Mercuric primers, my 223 will shoot sub moa all month, i clean it, nothing changes. I figure as long as the bore looks nice inside, running a rod in and out can't do that much to help

The deer rifle I use most often, if I pull a snake through it and it is dry of any protective oil I may have left in the bore, will shoot good for me. That is my point. You have to know. Some rifles will do OK some will not. You have to know. It is a little easier for me living in the east. I have very few shots that are ever going to be over 100 yds. My rifle shoots the same clean or fouled or within an inch in that range. Now when the barrel warms the thing starts to move. That's OK for my hunting.

Where will your 1st round on a clean barrel be now that you have adjusted after barrel being fouled? You may have cleaned during shooting. You did not say but what would have been a 5 shot group exactly?

That being said, it sounds like you had a great time and busted a lot of caps. I would have had a headache but still had fun.

GOOD SHOOTING!

Chief:

Very good point. I'm rather unscientific when it comes to hitting the target: if I do, I'm happy! Deer season is usually fairly chilly up here, and first shot/cleaning issues are certainly to be taken into consideration. I'll think more about that next time out...make some at least mental notes.

For that group of 60 (total), I was shooting with a clean gun, but never cleaned while at the range. The gun (and perhaps me?) seemed to get more accurate the more lead I threw.

And yeah, I have a great time with that gun! So much fun to shoot...I recommend it if you can find one. A bit rare and pricey, from what my quick reseach has turned up. No headache to speak of...just big smiles.

cheers

jonas

Sandy,I meant N.A. big game not little critters. It's one thing to set at a range station and punch pretty little holes in a non moving paper target, and another when its the last few minutes of daylight and your trophy ram is on the next hill 380 yds, away. Your guide says its now or never, your heart ( if you survived the last four hours of climbing that is) is beating about 23,500 B.P.M. and your body has built up so much latic acid you couldnt light a cigerette if your life depended on it. You know your rifle is up to the task,but are you? Or you have followed the Eland that will put you in the books for the last five days.It was walk all day until its too dark to see, lay down on the ground and up before dawn. Your body is screaming mommmmmy! but you are here for a purpose, to get that record book Eland. Its the sixth day and you just have ran 500 yds. to get a 400 yd. shot. You P.H. wispers "take him Now".Now tell about M.O.A. shots, i would like to hear about them.

But........................

If the rifle/ammo/shooter isn't capable of MOA groups, then it doesn't matter if the animal is 100, 200, 300, or 400 yds away. Under those conditions a clean killing shot is problematic, anyway.

Sandy,I meant N.A. big game not little critters. It's one thing to set at a range station and punch pretty little holes in a non moving paper target, and another when its the last few minutes of daylight and your trophy ram is on the next hill 380 yds, away. Your guide says its now or never, your heart ( if you survived the last four hours of climbing that is) is beating about 23,500 B.P.M. and your body has built up so much latic acid you couldnt light a cigerette if your life depended on it. You know your rifle is up to the task,but are you? Or you have followed the Eland that will put you in the books for the last five days.It was walk all day until its too dark to see, lay down on the ground and up before dawn. Your body is screaming mommmmmy! but you are here for a purpose, to get that record book Eland. Its the sixth day and you just have ran 500 yds. to get a 400 yd. shot. You P.H. wispers "take him Now".Now tell about M.O.A. shots, i would like to hear about them.

On the other hand, what's your guide going to say if you tell him that you had 1 paper plate accuracy at the range? I doubt he'd be very impressed with that one, either. Without actually doing it, there is no way to fully prepare for your hunts of a lifetime. That's why hunting is such a great sport. It's unpredictable.

I think a lot of good points have been made. Group size from a bench is a good measure of the performance of the rifle. Accuracy from field positions in various situations is the responsibility of the hunter. But still, all variables cannot be accounted for in practice, so it's best to have as great a margin of error as possible, meaning getting the rifle to be its most accurate and getting the shooter to be as accurate as they can possibly be as well.

amndouglas

I guess the 1 p.p. acuracy test is misunderstood. We all must find the most accurate load that yields the best power in the caliber we are developing a load for. M.O.A. is a benchmark set by the shooter and rifle in comfortable souroundings , where we can take our time between shots. 1 M.O.A. at 100 yds equals a 3 shot group measured center to center of 1.1 inch.This does not mean the same rifle and load will shoot 3 M.O.A. at 300 yds. Why?The projectile enters a hostile enviorment when it leaves the barrel. Barometric pressure,temp.,air density,wind,humidity,and bullet constrution flaws internaly and externaly andf some many other things too numerious to list all take their toll on accuracy. The 1 p.p. size never changes. Have some fun the next time you go to your range or place of powder burning. (Please do all this safley.) Put your rifle on the ground, loaded with the saftey on. Shooting sticks are prefered but not manditory. Run around until you are realy pumping blood. Grab your rifle,saftey off and sqeeze a round off at you down range target. Your rifle put a round exactly where your sights were when the hammer dropped on the firing pin, but is it in the paper plate?? What i am trying to say is field accuracy and bench accuracy are two total diffrent things. Oh by the way my P.H. was dancing after the big bull did a nose dive in the dirt, and the Ram graces my wall with the dignity and respect he deserves and always gets.

I have really got a lot of info from everyone on this thread, I Thank you all. I have learned a lot.