So I was shooting my big cartridge 300 Remington Ultra Mag the first time today. I have to say that I had a lot of fun with this gun, and probably will in the future. Shot my own lot of cartridges with 180 gr bullets. And the recoil was rather modest compared to what I expected, but I was shooting close to minimums at 2900 fps.

I was using 92.5 grs of N170 VhitaVouri powder, one of the slowest around. And I got these huge flashes out of the barrel (I mean from the videos my brother took these were like 1 meter across!). The recoil and brass felt and looked quite fine after each of the shots.

Anyhow my questions are these.
Is it normal to have this kind of flashes?
Or is my powder burning too slow for some reason, and burning in the barrel instead of the chamber?

I've never seen this from a rifle before, but have only been shooting smaller cartridges with faster powders.

Have certainly seen it with H335 in the .308. Prabably there is a better powder choice...not dangerous, but is highly destracting and does your shooting no good at all. That flash is much worse at dusk or dawn, and even firing between two close trees seems to turn some of that concusion back in your face.

You did not mention barrel lenght 26" I assume.Any time you burn 90+ grains of powder in a 30 cal barrel you will experience conciderable muzzle flash the best way to reduce the amount of flash is with a longer barrel such large capacity case is not a good platform for reduced loads

My sendero in 300 Remington ultra mag. does the same thing with factory ammo. It has the 26'' barrel, it is truly a fire breathing dragon.throat erosion is bad,bad,bad.

There is a guy at our gun club who is shooting N140 out of his 308, he says it is the only powder that will group decent out of his rifle. It gives some WICKED concussion, I stand inside of our cinder block clubhouse and the you can still feel the pop when he shoots.

Had a Mod 70 in .300 H&H back in the early 60's. Shot lots of IMR and H4831 in it with 180 gr bullets. Had the standard 26" bbl. Lots of muzzle flash and noise. Being young and dumb, sorta enjoyed it as my "big boomer" on the range! :D

Rifle243


"Anyhow my questions are these.
Is it normal to have this kind of flashes?
Or is my powder burning too slow for some reason, and burning in the barrel instead of the chamber?"

When a cartridge firearm is fired the powder usually burns as long as it is contained. That is both in the case and in the barrell. In some instances it will reach maximum pressure and then start loosing pressure.

For instance in a 22 long rifle with high velocity loads maximum pressure is reached in around 18 inchs. Barrels longer than that (in 22 long rifle) usually do not gain any velocity and can even lose velocity compared to an 18 inch bbl.

You can see this demonstrated by shooting a short barrel revolver or pistol then shooting a 22 rifle with a long barrel. You can hear the difference in the report and if shot at dusk can see the larger muzzle flash from the pistol.

Most of the time that you have a large muzzle flash it caused by a powder that has not reached maximum pressure by the time the bullet exits the barrel. The powder is still burning after the bullet is gone.

That is also why you loose about 50 feet per second for every inch of barrel you cut. It is also why cartridges like the ultra-mags are coming with 26 inch barrels.

When you back these monsters down to 24 and 22 inches they loose so much velocity that they are down to the 300 winchester mag velocities. Some folks whom do long range shooting with these large volume cases are using 28 to 30 inch barrels.

Think there is something powder specific about those big booming loads with lots of flash. SLower powders are not nearly so bad; if it were just burning rate, the slower powders would be worse about it. Int eh .308 example, H335 will make that big boom, but even slower 4350 will not...and they are shooting to nearly the same velocity.

Have noticed it most often with ball powders. Not alone in this, Ken Watrers has noted that kind of big flash/boom in several loads in his writting, with heavy ball powders being the worst offenders.

Wahtevcer it is, it's offensive to both teh shooter and anyone else on the firing line with you....unless you are stuck with several pounds of that powder, would be nice to switch to something that doesn't provide the fireworks show.
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Dind't make the range officer happy at one range after one of those expeimental ball powder loads (in a .358/XP 100) set fire to a cone of grass out to about 21yards.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Yes the barrel is 26". Gonna check if I can perhaps post an image from the video.

I am not shooting a reduced loads per se, this is above the recommended minimums in the VhitaVouri manual with the 180 grs Lapua HPBT bullet. The powder is extruded strand cylindrical powder.

I cleaned the rifle today after yesterday's session and it was much less hazzle than I had expected. In just a few swipes it was completely clean, indicating in my mind that the powder burn was rather clean and efficient in the shots.

Even though I'm not sure, nothing really indicates a problem I think. Except for the very evident huge muzzleflashes, hehe :rolleyes:

If the flash is bothering you, try one of the IMR powders. Stands for Improved Military Rifle. Magnum means bigger including the flash.

So here is a picture of one of the shots.

Guess this is normal then, right?

I had been tinkering with my favorite handload for my .375H&H and went up one grain using IMR 4350 and a 300 grain bullet. Muzzle flash had been minimal, velocity had been very good and pressures moderate. Tht one grain more produced the kind of (WOW) flash you are talking about and only gave me 18-23 fps more velocity. Lots of powder burning outside the barrel and since it wasn't helping me and seems to be a waste, I gave up on the idea. I can live with what I have and without the fireball.

What you're seeing is the gas igniting when it hits oxygen, not powder burning. You can do it with any gun by using a slow powder. And the powder that will produce the highest velocity will do so regardless of barrel length or flash. Change to a faster powder if you don't like the flash.

Wow, what a flame thrower!!!!

I seem to pick up from your original post that the flashes weren't a concern until you saw them on video? (is this correct ) or are you actually seeing that as you are shooting? Cameras , be it video or film have a hard time properly exposing a scene that contains an area that is so much more brighter than the surrounding area , and even worse is when it is only for a brief moment during the exposure , even auto -everything cameras can't adjust in the time it takes a bullet to exit a muzzle. So the answer to your question might be that your only "seeing" what the camera had to deal with due to the conditons.I would be really suprised to hear that had you not recorded this you would have noticed that degree of flash with your, or a bystanders eyes(?).

By the way , love that prehistoric shooting bench , gotta ask just how pointy is the end of that rock your leaning against with you "tuckis" and how much pain did the recoil cause in that regard (sorry couldn't resist ).


444fitch

Actually, 444 -

That .300 H&H M70 I discussed earlier with the big muzzle flash could be discerned in the scope, once I learned not to close my eyes and flinch when shooting it! :p

A few years ago I took a shot at a mulie buck about dark-thirty one evening with a long barreled 6.5-06. The muzzleflash in the scope temporarily blinded me to the extent I couldn't see which direction the buck ran. We found him the next morning under some cedars about 50 yds from where he was originally standing.

I agree that flash can be seen by the shooter at times and with some guns more than with others , I was just curious as to whether the poster was seeing it as distinctly as it appears in the picture(?).My rifled barrel 870 emits an eerie green blob upon firing , and when we tried to capture it on film under similar conditions it looked many times worse than percieved when seeing it with the naked eye .


444fitch

444fitch,

To answer your question, yes I do see the muzzle flash with bare eyes. And when I am this close from the flash it even looks bigger (and more round) than the this figure I posted testifies. My brother saw it too and therefore we looked at the videos. Out of several shots this frame was the only one in the videos where the flash showed up. The flash pops up and dies in milliseconds and your bare eye has much higher capture rate than your typical video camera I guess making you able to see it every shot. My feeling is when I shot the rifle, that I think this video frame doesnt even portray full expansion of the flash, its still expanding in the frame.

You can now see why I was a bit sceptical whether this was ok or not, because the largest caliber I've shoot till now was .243 Win :rolleyes:

And to the second question, yes my end got a little massage in each of the shots. :D But the rifle kicks less than I expected. I had really braced myself for the first shot, but then it wasnt really bad.

Every reloader must have a little "cannon" to play with. :D

Going to pull a quote out from the web:



Added to it are some other things to deter burning, stabilize the mixture and promote easy flow through metering devices. Additives amount to a very small percentage-- less than 1 percent-- of the whole.


Additives fall into a couple of categories. There are deterrents, such as dibutylphthalate, that serve to slow down burning rates. There are stabilizers, such as diphenylamine, that coat the grains to promote longevity and there are retardants, such as potassium sulfate or nitrate, that reduce muzzle flash. Muzzle flash has become something of a hot button issue, so the powder companies are addressing it.


I still do not think that your excessive flash is just powder speed related...some powders just produce more of a flash than others. IF it bothers you, can find a different powder to use taht will rpoduce the same vel. but with less flash...could be a slower powder or one of about the same burning speed, but with better anti-flash additives.

A NTSC video camera will normally capture 29.5 frames per second (not sure if PAL is the same) on some cameras, you can change the shutter speed which should allow you to capture video at a higher rate and make it easier to see the flash

And the powder that will produce the highest velocity will do so regardless of barrel length or flash.


Lost me on that one.

Not looking to start an argument but the whole idea behind longer barrels and slower powders is to ensure the most efficient use (burn) of the powder, and extracting the highest velocity for the pressure (created by the burn), especially with heavy bullets. Velocity can be significantly impacted by a shorter barrel. If what you said was true all magnums would have a 20" barrel (or shorter).

The best powder for a particular cartridge will produce a higher velocity than any other powder, regardless of barrel length. Mic McPherson made that claim, not me, but I understand it's true for any practical rifle barrel length. Of course the longer the barrel the more velocity we get, until barrel friction takes over. We seldom see that, except in .22 rimfires. Stubby magnum revolvers may be an exception to the ideal powder rule, but I haven't seen any hard data.

As for flash, I normally use 4350 in the .30-06, and I see a bit of flash. Some factory loads loaded with ball powder have an annoying flash even in bright daylight. On the other hand, Rl-22 and 190 Hornadys don't have a flash that's visible in daylight.

Bye
Jack

Cossack, your theory about hitting oxygen doesn't sound right. Smokeless powder contains its own oxygen, or it wouldn't burn without some kind of an oxydizer. A large muzzle flash only means the powder is burning with a high flame temp outside the gun, since it hasn't finished burning in the barrel. Slower powders will produce a bright muzzle flash, even from long barrels. A max load of Unique will produce a small muzzle flash from nearly any pistol-length barrel, while a charge of H-110 will light up the night. If you could shoot an H-110 load in space, I bet the flash would be even bigger! :p

Papajohn

I'm a little hazy on my chemistry, but some powders are oxygen deficit on purpose. Bullet velocity is limited by gas velocity and gas velocity is limited by gas molecule weight. CO (carbon moxide) is lighter than CO2 (carbon dioxide). So we've got hot CO exiting the barrel, hitting atmospheric oxygen and burning with a flash. Unburned powder adds to the flash, of course, and a slow powder flashes more than a fast powder. Both factors are at work.

Bye
Jack

kewl pic.

a few years back my buddy used 335 in his 243,and it gave off a bright white muzzle flash. He used up that pound and switched to 414 it went away. One of my 270`s gave off a big yellowish colored one ,it ended up goin in for head spacin repair. another buddy has a 300 ultra mag, factory amo in 180 grn winchester gave off a bright white flash , visible even in daylite,My reloads with 7828 for him dont `
Considering the violent reaction that is happenin in the chamber and barrel already ,and it is on the outside, I dont think its a problem , i sure looks cool