gonna send my MK II 06 SS to Zeglin to rebarrel. Is this rifle and it's action going to be a worthwhile choice? It has a Zytel stock and I am thinking of keeping the stock - on 06 it is a good tough stock but..... , WHO has experience with this interesting round? Seems like .411 is my kind of carry. Reloading brass time and time again - how does brass hold up? - knowing it has a very slight shoulder. How does this Ruger's bolt characteristics compare after it has been "blueprinted" along with the fitted .400 barrel? What do I need to be alert of - cost of dies?, cost of brass? etc..., I can gather the monies up but need other perspectives or notes of interests before jumping in. Fred seems pretty up front and responsive. Am I missing something? Recommeded minimum barrel length - 20"?
thanks

The 411 is good. But I think the 375 would even be more effecient. For our use up here I would do the 375, but to each his own. :D Enjoy.
PS. I did a search on the 411 Hawk and found some interesting info. I guess you have to be careful to use straight wall cases to form your brass and the shoulder needs to be .458!!!

The 411 is good. But I think the 375 would even be more effecient. For our use up here I would do the 375, but to each his own. :D Enjoy.
PS. I did a search on the 411 Hawk and found some interesting info. I guess you have to be careful to use straight wall cases to form your brass and the shoulder needs to be .458!!!
Jim do you own a Hawk? I was doing more thorough research on the round and found on their site formed brass for any of their calibers - expensive - be that at as it may. Supply and demand. I wander around many places up here in the Chandalar country - still very wild. Looking always for the "perfect" rifle :) - does it exist? Wife quite telling me no more guns - so long as I bring home the bacon I'm spared. Bought a Rem .375 RUM but don't like the extractor, kind of worrisome that piece of sheetmetal in the bolt face. Again how do you think the Ruger action will clean up when gone thru? I have seen .375h/h cal.yrs back at 20"length but it has to be severe for recoil sos how is the Hawk .411? Understand it don't compare to the belted mags were accustomed to. The ballistics seem extraordinary and exciting! Can't wait to hold the gun in my hands.

Griz,
I've got a 411 Hawk from Zeglin. If I'm not mistaken, he doesn't supplied formed brass, just cylindrical. You'll have to form in the die and then finish by fireforming.

Recoil isn't too bad from the heavy loads in the Hawk. The mid to heavy bullets can be tough to locate. North Fork is making a really nice 360 grain and Woodleigh makes a good 400 grain.

Zeglin does good work, I haven't had a bit of extraction or feeding troubles out of my rifle. Does take careful case forming and reloading, though.

gonna send my MK II 06 SS to Zeglin to rebarrel. Is this rifle and it's action going to be a worthwhile choice? It has a Zytel stock and I am thinking of keeping the stock - on 06 it is a good tough stock but..... , WHO has experience with this interesting round? Seems like .411 is my kind of carry. Reloading brass time and time again - how does brass hold up? - knowing it has a very slight shoulder. How does this Ruger's bolt characteristics compare after it has been "blueprinted" along with the fitted .400 barrel? What do I need to be alert of - cost of dies?, cost of brass? etc..., I can gather the monies up but need other perspectives or notes of interests before jumping in. Fred seems pretty up front and responsive. Am I missing something? Recommeded minimum barrel length - 20"?
thanks
Zeglin's dies are expensive, about $120 for his inline dies. Cylindrical brass is fairly expensive, but really cuts down on the expanding and working of '06 or 35 Whelen Brass.

If you are going with a bolt gun, I'd go with a 22" or longer. My 1895 Winchester has a 22" barrel and is very handy. I don't think you would have any issues with the length of the rifle at 22 or even 24".

Alyeska338
I knew some one had one - could not place where I read it. I have deliberated on the two cal. .375 or the .411. Tough time figuring this out. I know where I tend to walk and it always seem to be thru the thickest of stuff. I am excited about this venture as I have with all my rifle endeavors but what stumps me is the mentioned attention to detail. Freds micro seater die will hold bullet true so that is not the problem so it must be the shoulder eh? How do you do that, form one, load it,shoot, then resize and good to go? You use his dies right or some other long process? You may have caught my past threads on CRF/dangerous game rifle and I came to the conclusion instead of buying a Montana action and going from their (down the road maybe) I will use this Ruger I have. Know to a point that has been overlooked - how is the Ruger"s performance after Fred goes thru to match to barrel? What is your experience on Ruger's being worked over as such? Rumor has it that it is a strong action and maybe better than most - don't know about that but what gives? Another question most knowledgable man is what is the diff on the m16 extractor vs. the Sako for my Rem 700 in .375RUM? I'm choosing to keep this RUM irregardless of popular opinion so between a three pos/extractor should be good to go.

I use Zeglin's dies. Figured it was his baby and if anyone knows the cartridge and what it takes to make it work, it's him. You form the shoulder so you have a slight "crush" fit. The fireforming just "crisps" the shoulder up. The forming die leaves the shoulder a little rounded. Fireforming gets it to the proper dimensions. After that, you are ready to go.

Fred will have to rebarrel your Ruger. I don't think there is enough barrel to rebore over a .358" caliber. I haven't had any bolt action work done by him, but if he can get the push feed rear locking Winchester 1895 right, getting the Ruger right should be a piece of cake for him.

One option you might consider is opening the bolt face and do some rail and magazine work to accomodate a belted magnum and rebarrel to a 416 Taylor, or 375 Epstein. Both are based on the Win Mag case. The reason I throw this out is really good 416 bullets are much easier to find and will continue to be available. When I had my 411 made, Barnes, Swift, Woodleigh and North Fork all produced 350-400 grain .411" bullets. Now it's down to North Fork and Woodleigh. I'm not sure if North Fork will keep the 360 grain bullets as a regular production run or not. I grabbed a few boxes when he made his initial run, which at the time was only 10 boxes. Swift runs their 350 grain once every blue moon, but not something you can depend on. Woodleigh is very consistent, but their 400 grain offering is round nose.

You just cannot make a .416" bullet work on an '06 case and have enough shoulder for positive headspacing. I don't want to talk you out of a Hawk if you want one, just letting you know some of the issues I've run into with mine.

I use Zeglin's dies. Figured it was his baby and if anyone knows the cartridge and what it takes to make it work, it's him. You form the shoulder so you have a slight "crush" fit. The fireforming just "crisps" the shoulder up. The forming die leaves the shoulder a little rounded. Fireforming gets it to the proper dimensions. After that, you are ready to go.

Fred will have to rebarrel your Ruger. I don't think there is enough barrel to rebore over a .358" caliber. I haven't had any bolt action work done by him, but if he can get the push feed rear locking Winchester 1895 right, getting the Ruger right should be a piece of cake for him.

One option you might consider is opening the bolt face and do some rail and magazine work to accomodate a belted magnum and rebarrel to a 416 Taylor, or 375 Epstein. Both are based on the Win Mag case. The reason I throw this out is really good 416 bullets are much easier to find and will continue to be available. When I had my 411 made, Barnes, Swift, Woodleigh and North Fork all produced 350-400 grain .411" bullets. Now it's down to North Fork and Woodleigh. I'm not sure if North Fork will keep the 360 grain bullets as a regular production run or not. I grabbed a few boxes when he made his initial run, which at the time was only 10 boxes. Swift runs their 350 grain once every blue moon, but not something you can depend on. Woodleigh is very consistent, but their 400 grain offering is round nose.

You just cannot make a .416" bullet work on an '06 case and have enough shoulder for positive headspacing. I don't want to talk you out of a Hawk if you want one, just letting you know some of the issues I've run into with mine.
Naw! you are not talking me out of one :D glad to hear that the investment of bullets is like this ahead of time - thanks. I may then go with the .375 hawk but need to know further of a 416 Taylor and a .375 Epstein. Heh all info is appreciated. Opening that bolt face and doing some rail/mag work can be a do as I am looking to do a rifle project. I will keep open all avenues. oh by the way what do you think of the bullets "hawk" ? to soft?

I think for the purpose of the rifle you are wanting to build, the Hawks are too soft. That is based on very limited experience with a couple of different jacket thicknesses. They seem to hold together very well, but will upset to the point of nearly turning inside out. I'm sure they are great where less penetration is needed. I just don't believe a rifle intended to be used for bear protection should be loaded with anything but the best penetrating bullets you can find. Woodleigh and North Fork really help the 411 Hawk be what it is.

The 416 Taylor and the 375 Epstein or Chatfield-Taylor are both wildcats based on the Win Mag case. Probably easiest to start with 458 Win Mag brass and just neck down. More speed than the Hawk can produce and at lower pressures (typically).

I think for the purpose of the rifle you are wanting to build, the Hawks are too soft. That is based on very limited experience with a couple of different jacket thicknesses. They seem to hold together very well, but will upset to the point of nearly turning inside out. I'm sure they are great where less penetration is needed. I just don't believe a rifle intended to be used for bear protection should be loaded with anything but the best penetrating bullets you can find. Woodleigh and North Fork really help the 411 Hawk be what it is.

The 416 Taylor and the 375 Epstein or Chatfield-Taylor are both wildcats based on the Win Mag case. Probably easiest to start with 458 Win Mag brass and just neck down. More speed than the Hawk can produce and at lower pressures (typically).
The Chatfield-Taylor true short magnum utilizing a necked down .458 to a .416 - the great amercan magnum! Okay I'm in! :D what die you use to neck down the 458 brass? What gunsmith you know of here in our state that does exceptional work to work over my Ruger. Do you know of Arctic Gunworks in Fbks and his abilities? Any suggestions?

Done more research on this far out in left field round the elusive .375 Epstein. I gather it is built on a .375 HH case and that is all I know. For all practical purposes if this is the case why not stick to the venerable .375hh due to the availability of ammo irregardless of the ability to reload. I see the .416Taylor on the otherhand can be chambered according to the article that is in Chuck Hawkes data in the loved chambering of the 0le .06 Interesting, that Fred and the Chatfield-Taylor are built by using the .06 chamber. Anyone else if Alyeska is not available - feel free to join in my curiosity that has been stirred up.

Hey Griz, sorry not to get back to you sooner. I think Mr. Hawks may have some of his research askew. The 416 Taylor is a 458 Win Mag necked down to .416". It's not built on the '06 case. You will have to have the bolt face opened up on your rifle and likely will have to do some rail work. The 375 Epstein was built on the 338 Win Mag case, so is in effect a shortened and blown out 375 H&H case. The reason for going with the Epstein over the H&H is the H&H would require more work to your action than the Epstein. You have a standard length action and the H&H or 416 Remington all require a long magnum length action. This can be done by opening the rear of the action and replacing the magazine box, bottom metal, follower, rail work, and opening the bolt face. The Epstein would be easier to make and require less work than the H&H when starting with a standard length action.

As for someone here in Alaska to do the work, I don't really know. I'm sure there are quite a few that could handle the conversions very easily, especially in the Fairbanks area.

The 416 Taylor wildcat is popular enough for the dies to be readily available and there is a lot of load data floating around.

Griz,
Here is a link about the Epstein, where I quoted an article by Mike Epstein:
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=16375

There are several thread here at Beartooth about the 416 Taylor, just go to the search menu and type in Taylor or 416 Taylor and you'll get several pages of threads mentioning the 416 Taylor.

Alyeska338,
These wildcat cartridges have many advocates and obviously you are one of them. I was taught -thank you, about improving a longaction chamber that can work along with existing chamber pressures as such and still be safe. I deliberated on the .411 but bullet selection are the problem, the .375 Hawk as well, the .375Epstein and again I came to the .416 Taylor and that is truly impressive in statements and design. I got in touch with Homer Strickland in Anch. and he may well have the task or I will send it to Fred as I have already contacted him. You are thorough in this matter and I am grateful. Weird how I came back to a .416 - yrs back in discussing this choice of dangerous game rifle with my bro-in-law who has hunted Africa and other wonderful places in the world AND again came back to it but a TAYLOR mind you :D This .06 Ruger controlled feed will be interesting in its new makeup. Hey! what do you know of the Badger barrels?

Homer is top notch. Opinionated as can be, but he is good. I really like him and he's done a lot of work to help me. He's the FFL I use, also. Great guy and really knows how to build extremely accurate or precise rifles. His proprietary handloading stuff is pure art. He's quite a character. He's very biased toward Lilja barrels and Jewell triggers. I haven't seen any of his work on hunting rifles (other than trigger work he's done for me), but his benchrest guns are really something.

As for the wildcats, anytime you try to get more or the same performance from a smaller capacity case, it usually means pressures go up. If I were buying a new 416 rifle, I'd go for the Rigby version. If I were buying a new 375 caliber rifle, I'd go for the H&H. However, if I had a '06 based cartridge rifle and wanted to make a 416, I'd give the Taylor consideration. While the Taylor won't give you exactly the performance of the Rigby or the Remington Mag, at least not without pushing the pressure envelope, it will do very well for what it is.

I know a few guys that are using the 416 Taylor and all are very pleased with its performance on Brown bear, especially using North Fork bullets. Seems to be a wicked combination.