Their is a lot of understandable confusion about handgun calibers and their effectiveness for self defense. Probably the most interesting misconception I hear about is the 9mm. I don’t know how many times I hear about "Well, that’s what the police carry". Sorry, the 9mm is a very weak, low power round and the reason why the police carry them is to avoid collateral damage to innocent people which results in lawsuits. It’s funny but the several of the volunteer highway patrol we have in Arizona that I know all carry .45's, not 9mm. The US Military moved away from the .45 because of NATO. Guess what? Just like when we used to use .38's they are now seeing big problems with the lack of knockdown power they had with the .45. In fact they are also seeing problems even with the M16's in 5.56 (.223) which is extremely effective on a soft target provided their is not 27 layers of clothes. By the end of this decade it’s the 6.8mm cartridge for the rifles and by to the 5.56.

If you’re going to have a handgun for self defense you need something with some real knockdown power which means size and weight of the bullet. Technically you could defend yourself with a single shot .22 short if it’s a well placed shot. In the real world things are moving fast so he who hits the target first with an effective round wins. And the target is center of mass, the chest. A 9mm in the chest of some coked out person will take time while a .45 will put him down quickly.

If your not a gun nut like some of us, go out shooting 30-40 weekends a year, you need to shoot something that has at least 200g+ of weight AND has a soft lead nose (or a hollow point) to create an argument ending large wound channel. Personally I load up all cast (jacketed hollow point for huntin')

Their was a 20/20 show a few years back about some of the hospitals in Chicago and NYC and how they were dealing with gunshot wounds. The Doctors were complaning that in the "Old" days they would see people with .38's and 9mm gunshot wounds and those people had a good chance of survival. Now they were seeing people with .44 and .45 wounds and they were having a problem keeping them alive.

Unless you’re really cool under fire, very practiced and can aim with your body stay away from the 9mm. If its for home defense don’t buy a handgun, buy a 12 Gauge (Remington 870 is the standard)

If you are going to own a 9mm for self defense you better do a lot of practicing with reaction body aiming. By that I mean you practice on full size targets at 21' and don’t draw the weapon up to use the sights, you aim with your body and get good at double tapping at least 2 rounds in the chest.

Why 21'?
The feds look at 21' as the maximum range you can defend yourself from an attacker that has a weapon other then a gun (like a machete or knife) They figure at 22' your not in danger of imminent harm.

Yup, the 21' circle. Anything with in that can be considered a threat. I've gone against some fellow officers on the gym mat. We've done knife training. Within 21 feet, I can lunge at you and hit you before you can react. Hence why it's the 21 foot circle rule.

The 21 foot is called "The reactionary gap".
If an officer is unprepared a suspect can cover that distance before he can draw is weapon and fire.
If the officer is alert and has his hand on the weapon he can draw and ususaly get one to three shots off. The suspect will probably close the distance to the officer because he will be well on the way before the rounds hit him, assuming they do.
If the officer has his gun drawn and the suspect attackes from 21 feet the officer has a very good chance of stopping the suspect before he reaches the officer. :)
Zepp,
I hate to tell you this but you are very misinformed about handgun stopping ability!!! :confused:
1. Your comment about the 9 mm being a 'weak, low power' round is wrong. If you use 147 gr sub-sonic ammo it equates to a 38 Sp. If you use the best 115-127 gr +p+ ammo it equates to a 357 Mag. And your comment about useing for 'lack of penatration' is 180 dergees out. 9 mm that does not expand properly penatrates further than the 'larger' caliber rounds do.
The stopping power is directly related to the amount of injury you cause to the animal you are trying to stop. The 45 ACP is a 'fair' stoper IF YOU GET A FULL UNCOVERED FRONTAL SHOT. It lacks the velocity it need to be a first rate stopper. 1000 fps to defeat the frontal bone, femur, and car windshields. The 45 has a hard time making 900 fps in most loads. Before bullet tech developed to where it is today the bullet with the greatest frontal area caused the most injury, thus the 45 rep/myth.
There are several rounds that, with the right ammo and shot placement, do a decent jop of 'stopping the fight'. The 45 is on the lower end, but still acceptable.
The best thing to take if you are going is harms way is the rifle, but you can't come up to every car you stop or every citizen you contact on a call with rifle in hand so the hand gun has to do. ;)
As I said in the other thread, there is no such thing as 'knock down power' unless of course you work in Hollywood. ;)

I just wish the whole "stopping power" debate would take ten years off. It's all been beaten to death so often for so long it doesn't even smell anymore. If you want to stop someone, use a shotgun or rifle. If all you have is a handgun, any caliber can be effective as long as the bullet goes where it needs to. Even the lowly 22LR will penetrate as deep as needed in most cases. It's just like the Real Estate folks keep saying,,,,,"location, location, location!"

Put the lead thingy in a good place, under stress, as fast as you can, and keep doing it until the bad man stops whatever he was doing that made you shoot him in the first place. 'Nuff said.

Papajohn

This "My gun's better than your gun" thing is a little boring. The only guy that ever won that argument was John Holms. A little search with the topic (handgun bullet expansion) will keep you in reading material for quite some time. Is 9mm better than 45? Is one bullet/bullet weight better than another? Bullet design has come a long way since those FBI guys had to pay the bill for the closed minds in Washington. The best advise that I have ever gotten was from the police officer that taught my concealed carry class. He said "Continue to fire until the threat no longer exists"

In pistol calibers all are benchmarked against the .357 mag 125 grn Federal load that still has the one shot fight stopping record of 98% , but as Mr. Murphy says don't bring a knife to a gun fight and any gun is better than none.

Dogma is just that, dogma. To some it will always sound good. To others it will just be barking up the wrong tree. Ray Z mentions doing the search for stopping power. You will read opinion forever that way. Some anecdotal evidence will be thrown in just to confuse the advertising though. Best idea? Shoot what you can shoot well. Practice with it a lot, and empty it if you have to to keep the mean people from doing the thing they did to get themself shot like papjohn and Ray Z said.

I often ask people who say a 9mm is weak if they are willing to let me shoot them with one. No takers yet. ;)

I'm with Zeppy here. I'm sorry but i dont believe the 9x19 will ever touch the .357 and if your going to use the +p+ load then i dare you to compare that against the top handloaders, if you compare them equaly then the 9mm will not touch the .357 magnum. I'll stick to big and slow, the bigger the hole going in the bigger the hole going out and there for the more internal damage and shock. the .44 spl, .45 ACP ect. the 9mm is better than nothing but not much else. its around the same level as the .38 spl WHEN COMPARED ON EQUAL LEVELS WITH EQUAL LOADS (ie the +P+ comment) or the .32 magnum. **** i'd rather have a .40 short and whimpy anyday and even at that.

IDShooter: very funny (litteral not sarcastic), but it doesn't answer the question of relitive stopping power.

Jim Rau
The comments I make are based on a lot of real experiance on my part and with other gun nuts. I dont make these comments from just beer drinking sitting around a fire letting out gas. Yeah you can pump up to the max a 9mm and get .357 performance so you might as well get a .357 and pump it up. I have a 7 shot smith and its fun and would be effective. However wet paper tests, dry phonebook tests, sand bucket tests, ballistic jello tests that me and my cohorts do all show that unless their is a real significat speed and bullit composition difference, the heavy mass carries penetration much deeper. Most people are going to buy off the shelf ammo for their 9. Now, fine tuning a round can make a difference but again the novice who is buying a 9mm for home defense is making a mistake IMHO.

I wont quote TKO even though their is a significant difference between the biggest factory load of a 9mm and a real .357.

Their is something to be said for heavy mass hitting a target and the heavier the mass the more effective it is. Their is a balance between weight, speed, bullit composition and other factors including of course the quality of the gun and the cool head of the shooter. The point is the novice, the person who does not practice on a regular basis should use something that delivers a bit larger mass.

A 22/250 is a very nasy round but you cant hunt Deer in this state with it. The reason? It will kill the deer... but it will take time. The same principle applies when defending yourself.

Watch what happens in the next couple of years. The day of the 9mm and .223 is going to be history in the military.

Jim Rau, you stated that the 45ACP has a hard time making 900fps _NOT TRUE_ Corbon and Buffalo Bore offer 45ACP ammo Advertised at 950fps with 230 grain bullets I have cronographed Buffalo Bore's in two different 1911 45's and both were over 1000fps{ YES ONE THOUSAND FEET PER SECOUND} I have hunted with both and I am convinced the 45 is superior the U.S. Marines still use 45's and have I spoken to some whom have witnessed 9mm& 45 used in combat in Iraq and there impresion was that the 45 is superior

I often ask people who say a 9mm is weak if they are willing to let me shoot them with one. No takers yet. ;)

You nailed it.... literally!!!!!

All this arm-chair theory about 'stopping power' and such-and-such theory is just.... talk. Yeah, it's fun to talk about, but doesn't mean squat.

Let's face it... most people don't want to get shot by anything more powerful than a rubber-band gun, if that.

For those miscreants that get themselves shot, there's a plethora of cartridges / bullets with over 90% track record of ending the fight, with one pull of the trigger.

Nothing is perfect, boys..... including the .45 auto and .44 Mag, and the rest of the hand cannons. Some of the .45/.44 loads are in fact, PROVEN to be less effective than many smaller / lighter cartridges. PROVEN!!! Now, I can't explain why and I don't know if anyone can explain why.... frankly don't care why..... but I'll go with the odds. Same logic for wearing a seatbelt.

My .357 snubbie sorta throttles that cartridge back to max 9mm levels..... so that ought to tell you where I sit in the grand scheme of things.

Hey I got no problem with a .45. I carry one too, on occasion, and it's a much better hunting handgun than a snubbie .357. But... it ain't magic. Just so happens it's at the low end of what I'll consider hunting with, coincidence, I suppose.

Nobody is ten feet tall because of the cartridge they carry, and nobody is unarmed when they have a functional gun. If you think your hand-held death ray is the magic answer to all personal-defense applications of a handgun, by all means, enjoy it.

Your statements from Iraq verify my RVN experance. IF YOU SHOOT BALL AMMO THE 45 WINS. As I said, bullet technology changed all that.
That said, if you take the best loads in the 9, 40, 45 you will find they all GET THE JOB DONE IF YOU DO YOUR PART. There is so little differance in their effectiviness the point is mute!!
So the question I would ask, if this is true (and it is), why carry a heavier, larger, harder recoiling, hand gun with less ammunition per mag for selfdefense??? :confused: :rolleyes:
Has common sense gone by the way side here too?? :(

Yes it has. Common sence is lost trying to prove that a high capacity 9mm is better than a more powerful bullet. my grandfather once said to me "if i need more than 5 shots then i shouldn't be carrying a gun. why carry a more powerful gun? because A BIGGER HOLE IN IS A BIGGER HOLE OUT. There is no way that the 9mm is going to compare to the .357 magnum or .45 in track record or in power WHEN LOADING BOTH TO MAX. I know a teacher at my college that subs for crime scene photographers and retains his police certifications and i was just discussing this with him. His veiw on the 9mm is that no matter if its what the "police use" or not it is too weak, in fact he certifies with a .45 ACP! ane when he works as a photographer for departments he carries a 1911, when he carries concealed he carries a .45 ACP. The 9mm is too weak, this is from a police officer who carried a 9mm for years and saw how it worked. As for your statement about bullet technology then ok load a 9mm hollow point and a .45 hollowpoint and see what happens, the .45 STILL makes a bigger hole on both ends! no matter how you look at it the .45 wins.

You nailed it.... literally!!!!!

All this arm-chair theory about 'stopping power' and such-and-such theory is just.... talk. Yeah, it's fun to talk about, but doesn't mean squat.

Let's face it... most people don't want to get shot by anything more powerful than a rubber-band gun, if that.

For those miscreants that get themselves shot, there's a plethora of cartridges / bullets with over 90% track record of ending the fight, with one pull of the trigger.

Nothing is perfect, boys..... including the .45 auto and .44 Mag, and the rest of the hand cannons. Some of the .45/.44 loads are in fact, PROVEN to be less effective than many smaller / lighter cartridges. PROVEN!!! Now, I can't explain why and I don't know if anyone can explain why.... frankly don't care why..... but I'll go with the odds. Same logic for wearing a seatbelt.

.

You say its all arm chair talk and just theorys and nothings proven. Then you say the 45 is proven less effective. Which is it? Do we have just talk or proof. Me thinks we have some double speak here.

JIM RAU [quote-has common sence gone by the way side here too??] I am not sure what you call common sence? If you mean do I take the stats that compilled by some too show as they call one shot stopping as gospill then I guess that I have none. I put more weight on what I see in the field. THE PROPER BULLET MUST BE USED FOR ANY CALIBER TO BE EFFECTIVE.A I stated eairlier I haveshot game with the 9 & 45 and the 45 does put bigger holes as 44SandW stated and in my experience has always killed quicker and I believe what I have always seen. I have always been amazed at those whom recomend calibers for self defence that are smaller than what they would recomend for a 100-150 pound deer. A heavy clothed 260 pound determined human attacker in my opion would be a more formable foe I believe.When hunting I don,t judge a cartridges performance totally on how fast an animal goes down that is only part of the equation . There are many variables. Anyone whom spent any time in the boxing ring can tell you that some people are knocked out easily by a realitively weak punch while some are nearly impossiable to knock out with a much harder punch.Some of these one shot stop satistics are attackers whom are not determined and stop the attack with fairly minor wounds.Can the 9 work? The answer is yes,but in my experience the bigger hole works better.

BTW jim, i dont care to hear your comparision of LEO ONLY AMMO TO CIVILAN AMMO! If you load 9mm to the TOP and you load .357 to the TOP the highest possible pressures then the .357 will come out on top, period. Thats like comparing the .45 ACP to the .45 GAP when the GAP ammo is loaded to +P pressures!

All I know is there are hundreds of police shootings with the 9mm and large percentage did the job that was asked of it. No caliber is foolproof just as some deer run while others don't. Each is an individual that reacts different. Best you can do is put the round on target and "neutralize the threat"

I have a 9mm, 40 S & W, and a 357 mag. My 9mm reloads are Hornady 124 grn I chrony around 1200 fps. If someone was in my house, I'd feel more than adequate to deal with them with my 9mm.

1. My defination of common sense is "the wise use of knowledge".
2. Shooting deer has little to nothing to do with the effect of hand guns on human targets.
3. I spent two combact tours in RVN, 26 yeras on the street as a cop. No closet jobs or detective assignment. I have seen and been involed in litterly hundreds of incidents where bullets and people tried to be be at the same place at the same time, thus a lot of blood was lost!!!
4. I started a business in the early eighties, Persision Ballistics, and began to test the terminmal effects of bullets. First I was dealing with only hand guns because I was trying to find the best bullets for police (self defense) use but later branched out to rifle bullets because I am a hunter.
5. Some people will not respond to others not matter what they say or do. (human nature). Thus those who wish to bad mouth me and disagree. If you want to do it your way, go for it, this is a free country. But if you are smart you will keep an open mind and learn for others mistakes. :p

Some of the posters (and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, we have this discussion about once a quarter, LOL) are speaking out of both sides of your mouths, and possibly a little in the middle.

OK.... we all accept that the .357 Mag is a 'stopper' (or whatever), right.... based on volumes of statistical data.

Then... sometimes in the same post.... the argument is made that XXX caliber is bad/useless/dangerous/etc.... for whatever pet theory.... which IGNORES the volumes of statistical data (from the same source!) that shows it's perfectly adequate for the task at hand. 98%, 95%, 93%.... if you think you can live on the difference, you're in the wrong business. Move to Las Vegas, and try to put the casinos out of business. :D

I'd suggest leaving out the military track records, as well. Shooting half-starved Japanese soldiers with .45s, using Thompsons with 50 round mags, and all the free ammo Uncle Sam can supply, is probably not relevent to the armed citizen in this day and age.

.45 ball and 9mm ball, surprisingly, have about the same track record.

Any decent pistol caliber (9mm, .357, .40, .45, .357 Sig, and whatnot) can be found with available ammo that shows up at 90% or better in putting an end to the fight in one shot. The rest of the arguments pretty much boil down to religion, and style (which is why they never end, LOL).

There ain't no such thing as 'stopping power.' There's only putting the odds in your favor, as much as possible, based on real and objective data.

Again.... most people on this earth don't want to be shot. Even with what we'd consider feeble choices, MOST people don't want to CONTINUE to be shot, after having been shot once.

Gonna have to pin one of these threads, to save server bandwidth! :p

You say its all arm chair talk and just theorys and nothings proven. Then you say the 45 is proven less effective. Which is it? Do we have just talk or proof. Me thinks we have some double speak here.

Sorry that wasn't clear. I meant that I was, in fact, in favor of analyzing as much statistical data as possible, rather than just going on opinion.....

I have seen the results of a .45 at close range, and heard the story first hand from the survivor. The scar was impressive to say the least. He was not hit center mass. He weighed 180-190, was sitting in a steel chair, and both were flipped over backwards. 230 round ball issue. The SOG folks I came in contact with recently were preparing their new HK .45acp weapons systems. So maybe it was a few years ago when the new toys came out with silencers and other goodies. They were glad to get rid of their 9's. They were not forthcoming with stories about their experiences. I have a 9x21.5, 2 .45ACP Paras, and a 7 shot .357 and all are real handy. The 9x21.5 is a 147g/1250fps 16 shooter. I believe in shooting until the threat no longer exists. I admittedly don't shoot all of the guns as much as I used to, but in the winter the Cowboys, IPSC. and LEO's get the range time. Needless to say the shotgun stays close as well. 1st choice if there is time.

Let's assume that we line two people up shoulder-to-shoulder. We take a 5" 1911 .45 and a 5" Browning Hi-Power 9mm and shoot them each directly in the heart with an identical bullet (respective of caliber). Say, a 230gr Speer Gold Dot and a 115gr Speer Gold Dot.
So, all of you 9mm detractors: Would I be correct to assume that you would say that the individual hit with the 9mm would not succumb as quickly as the .45?

2. Shooting deer has little to nothing to do

Jim, has a lot to do with it as it's an analogy. How many people have been shot with various calibers and still had fight left in them? How many didn't and just went down and were DOA? That is my point. No matter if it's deer or humans, everything reacts in a different way. You should know this as no situation is the same and there are so many variables involved.

Mike G, Why leave out military track record. I never mentioned any thing about thompson's or half starved Japeness Which incidently my Grand Fathers brother, my Great uncle fought as a Commandig General in the Marine Corp in the Pacific and comanded the Third Marine division on Iwo. and I didnot mention there experience.I mentioned Marines in Iraq modern times.I never said a 9mm could or would not work I simply said with the best 45 loads vs the best 9mm loads that I would take the bigger of the two because when shooting animals you can tell where the impact is better with the Larger caliber and believe that it is better over a wider range of circustance's. When I mention my experience shooting game Jim Rau didnot get the analogy. And since I shoot 454's-475's-500's I donot find the 45 ACP 1911 style guns large or hard to carry or shoot. As I have seen my brother shoot 45's and hit faster than his competion with 9,s I just didnot see it as a disadvantage. only a plus

I remember reading once that the FBI said they did not care what there agents carried as long as it began with 4. A lot of the special op units in the military still use 45's.
The only 9 I own is a baby glock in 357 sig.

Because the military track records of both the 9mm and .45 are comprised of shootings with the WORST possible loading for each cartridge, that's why! The information just isn't relevant to self-defense 60 years later.... if we're gonna hamstring ourselves with the cartridge choices of the 1940s, might as well stay with the .45 Colt....

Heck I'm all in favor of getting the best I can, when my backside is on the line! BUT.... there are too many people making the same choices, based on outdated/incorrect information, or just old wive's tales/gunshop chatter, and that is sad.

There is a LOT of statistical data on what exact bullets/cartridges will and will not work. I'm just surprised how few people will bother to do any investigation, considering the stakes.

It is just way more in-depth than "9mm-vs-45". Maybe we all read the same article in Blasting Ammo Times till we can't think independently anymore.

We all recognize that our favorite deer-shootin' rifle will have vastly different performance with different bullets (light vs. heavy, fast-expanding vs. not, etc.), and that practically any decent centerfire rifle cartridge will do the job with the right bullet. Why is it so hard to accept that the same is true for handguns/self defense?

Maybe it's because first-hand observation is powerful - I've shot deer with a variety of rifle cartridges, from .22 to .44, and can see the effects. But I haven't shot one single person with a handgun (and hope to never gain any experience whatsoever), so have to rely on other sources for information on what will work best. It should go without saying that the largest possible body of relevant data should be used for decision making.

Mike G I usually agree with your takes this time though we will have to agree to diagree I may be wrong in my opion but if I am to err than I will make mine with the bigger caliber

Well...I have used several pistol rounds in extreme situations...on my first tour in RVN I had a .357 highway patrolman...I loved the pistol but it lacked sufficient power to deal with either the irate water buffalo or a PAVN soldier in close combat. It was hit by an AK bullet that broke the frame so I threw it away..wish I had kept it now...I then had a carbine for a while...bad mistake..I once shot a guy twelve times...he fell each time...and then continued to shoot at me with his Soviet Assault Rifle.scaring me to death before he died..I...traded it for a standard .45 with the five hundred pound oatmeal trigger. it was powerful and very reliable...everything the very nice S&W was not in the field...and .45 ACP makes a very big hole and the target bleeds out quickly if you hit it with that trigger...that was the problem...and with so many women coming into the force structure...some units are at about 40% female.....we needed a change....the .38 fleet was too old and difficult to rebuild...so...we started lookng for something easier to shoot and new....finally the Model 92 was selected and modified to M9, 9 x 19mm. For the first time, novice shooters could qualfiy with the modest amount of ammunition provided. They all kill...some leave big, better holes than others. With so many armies and security forces wearing body armor, small fast calibers are making sense again for he reason of penetration. Mike

That is what I have been saying all along 45 is bigger hole in bigger hole out thanks for your service to our country and your experience cannot be disputed.I totally understsand about the easier quallifing with the smaller round

Geez, Zeppelin, you must be trollin' today. Not this tired, old "9mm is weak" garbage from those who worship at the .45 alter. (And, yes, I have a 9mm.)

And you need to do some more research on the 6.8mm cartridge. From everything I've read, the 6.8 is NOT going to replace the 5.56. It is going to be used in specialized applications. There may be stories to the contrary, but it's not a definite that the 6.8 will replace the 5.56.

Gents,

Back on familiar ground I see. Wonderful!

I beleive that there is a great mistake in trying to apply a scientific expectation against an issue that encompasses so many varibles that that the exceptions will tend to overshadow the rules.

In my mind, the two largest issues have to do with operater ability and the nature and consitution of the threat. Operator ability is fairly common sense, as we will all agree that a hit from a 9 is better than a miss from a 45. So, its important that the fellow behind the gun can mange whatever he chooses.

I also beleive that it is a mistake to think that one round of any pistol ammo is going to do the job, and if you find yourself in a short gun fight, you may need to be able to place good hits several times in rapid succession. I can think of several instances, including one first hand, that a determined and motivated adversery was able to shake off mutiple, eventually fatal, hits and keep fighting, so I do not put any faith in any one silver bullet, or magical caliber for instant liquification of the bad'un.

I also know of one instance that a fellow was shot at and missed, but he thought he was hit, so he did a Hollywood flip onto on his back, and pleaded for medical attention. If he would have been grazed on the toe nail, everyone around would have jumped up and down and said, by Jim, that gun is stopper!

Easily repeatable, accurate strings is one attribute of my issued M9 that I like pretty well, although the M9 is a fairly difficult pistol to master, and does take some real practice. I can do this with my 1911 45 just as well, but the rest of my own personal defensive battery this issue is more problematic.

I wish you well in whatever you choose, but I pray that you can hit with it, and can hit with it fast and often, if you run into one of those guys that is tougher/meaner/harder than most.

All the best from Old Dad.

Steve

9mm vs. .4something+ is just the same as Glock vs. 1911. The debate rages on forever. I bet I get vilified for mentioning Glock vs. 1911... Oh well. This debate is really only academic because when the poop hits the fan the handgun you have will be the one that you use whether it is "Your One" or something less. If all I have is one of my .22s or 9x18 Mak, I will use it. Would I prefer something like my .357 or .45 acp? Sure, but there will be no gun descrimination here.

Hi guys!...I've read all of your posts with great interest...Some of it I agree with, some of it I don't...I've seen many shootings in my life...One shooting hit home...I went thru the police academy in 1979 but have not been a police officer all my life...I've seen ppl shot with .45's and ppl shot with .25's...It's ironic that we talk about "stopping power"...Sometimes it defies logic...I'll start with the first shooting I made...It was 2 guys, one shot 3x's in the neck with a .45...Died instantly...His partner, shot 2x's, once in the stomach and once in the upper right thigh...He survived...The next shooting I saw was a man who was shot in the side just above the kidney, 6x's...I asked him if he wanted me to call an ambulance but he said "no, I'll drive myself to the hospital" and did so...The next shooting involved several police officers who shot a suspect 33x's out of 40 plus rounds...None hit the vitals and the suspect left the hospital six months later...I had a friend who needed a gun for his wife so I sold him a .25 acp...He used it 2 weeks later to shoot a person who along with a girl and another man attacked him...He shot the perpetrator once in the chest...The perpetrator died instantly...What's the point in all this?...Well, "stopping power" in my opinion has more to do with shot placement rather than the size of the bullet...The person who died as a result of one shot out of a .25 rather than the man who was shot 2x's with a .45 shows that shot placement saved the day...The last two shootings I will refer to is how weak the 9mm can be perceived...I know 2 ppl, who were shot with 9mm's, once each, both died...Both were "goodguys"...One of the deceased is my brother...One shot stopping power comes in all shapes and sizes...

****, gunman. Sorry to hear about your brother. But you're right. It's shot placement not stopping power. It's the same deal with people that argue about .223 vs .308. Niether one is going to make the scumbag any deader.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/current/features/5231-1.html

This is a test of several 9mm +P+ ammos out there.

it states that they are on par with some 357 rounds.

Shootin a few, supplied by my LE friend, I have to agree that they surely have more "shout" than the typical white box 9mm. They were rippin' thru dry NYC phonebooks.

Credit goes to Gun-Test magazine.
"The 9mm Parabellum cartridge (commonly called 9mm Luger in the US) has traditionally been loaded more lightly on this side of the Atlantic than in Europe. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute (SAAMI) has set a pressure ceiling for standard pressure 9mm Para at 35,000 pounds per square inch (psi). By contrast, NATO pressure ceiling is 42,000 psi. In-between U.S. standard pressure 9mm and NATO spec, we have two options. 9mm +P has a SAAMI pressure ceiling of 38,500 psi. There’s no SAAMI spec for 9mm +P+; that’s just a way of saying its pressures exceed +P standards. The impetus to develop a higher-pressure — thus higher velocity — domestic 9mm load came from our nation’s police. By the mid/late-1980s many departments were trading in their .357 Magnum revolvers for 9mm auto pistols. However, they still wanted .357 Magnum stopping power. Thus was born the concept of the +P+ 9mm. Such loads typically increase velocity of a 9mm projectile from between 100 to 200 feet per second (fps). A 9mm auto stuffed with +P+ ammo is, in effect, a high-capacity, fast-firing, quick-reloading .357 Magnum. (A hot 9mm generates muzzle energies equivalent to a .357 Magnum 110-grain jacketed hollowpoint, a round most shooters take seriously.) The 9mm’s popularity in police service has taken a hit in the last ten years or so. Once it was the most popular police cartridge in North America; today that title belongs to the .40 S&W. Among ordinary citizens, the 9mm’s popularity was adversely affected by the now-expired Assault Weapons Ban and its prohibition on importation or domestic manufacture of detachable box magazines holding more than 10 rounds. With 9mm and .40 magazines holding the same number of rounds, many shooters decided, “If I can only get 10-shot mags, I want them holding the fattest rounds possible.” Now that the ban’s expiration has restored the 9mm’s capacity advantage, we look for the fortunes of this cartridge to recover somewhat in the future. As a general rule, 9mm +P ammunition is sold to both police and the general public, but +P+ 9mm is sold only to police agencies, which have to sign a waiver saying they won’t sue if anything goes wrong. The exception to this rule is Winchester, which restricts both its +P and +P+ 9mm to police-only sales. In this article we tested five hot 9mm loads, because, though this ammunition is ostensibly “police-only,” it does tend to find its way onto the commercial market. For instance, while this article was being prepared, we received word a local commercial gun shop had just gotten in a big shipment of Winchester +P and +P+ 9mm. Our test ammo included the Federal Classic 115-grain Hi-Shok JHP +P+, product code 9BPLE, basically the company’s famous 9BP load pumped up to +P+ pressures. Also from Federal was the Premium 124-grain Hydra-Shok JHP +P+ (No. P9HS3G1). From Remington we tested the 115-grain JHP +P+ (No. R9MM4). Winchester Ranger brands were the 124-grain SXT +P (No. RA9124TP) and 127-grain SXT +P+ (No. RA9TA). Our test gun was an older, though lightly used, example of Sig’s P226 in 9mm, a cartridge/design combination with an excellent reputation and track record for reliability and accuracy. Barrel length on the P226 was 4.4 in. We acquired it from Bull’s-Eye Shooter Supply (414A Puyallup Ave, Tacoma, WA 98421, [253] 572-6417). Our testing procedure had several stages in it. If a round was found wanting at any stage, it was removed from the rest of the test, and the survivors continued. The stages are described briefly below; a more detailed testing procedure can be viewed and downloaded free of charge at www.gun-tests.com/performance/ammunition.html (http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/ammunition.html). http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/17_3/Ammo2.jpgOur test gun was a stock Sig P226. Accuracy testing entailed firing four 5-shot groups with the P226 in a Ransom Rest.
Reliability. Every round fired passed the reliability portion of the test. The gun worked perfectly. What did you expect? This was a 9mm Sig P226. Velocity. Every round tested passed the standard for consistent velocity, and several posted tight standard deviations (SDs). The Federal 124-grain Hydra-Shok +P+, Remington 115-grain JHP +P+, and Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ posted single-digit SDs. For ammunition whose entire purpose is to offer more energy than standard-pressure 9mm, we wondered how more velocity these +P and +P+ rounds generated above standard-pressure ammo. Typical standard-pressure 9mm defense-load figures would show a 115-grain jacketed hollowpoint at 1150 fps generating 337.8 foot-pounds of muzzle energy (ME), or a 124-grain JHP at 1100 fps generating 333.2 foot-pounds ME. In this regard we’d have to flunk the Federal 124-grain Hydra-Shok +P+ at 357.3 foot-pounds and the Winchester 124-grain SXT +P at 364.9 foot-pounds. They simply don’t offer enough additional ME compared to standard-pressure 9mm to justify their choice over more easily available and cheaper loads. In ascending order of ME generated, the Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ at 405.5 foot-pounds, Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ at 425.0 foot-pounds, and Federal 9BPLE at 427.7 foot-pounds were another story. Thus, the Federal 9BPLE, Remington 115-grain JHP +P+, and Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ rounds continued on to the next phase of testing. Accuracy. The Federal 9BPLE failed to make the accuracy standard with a 2.2 in. average. This round shot quite high, about 4 inches at 50 feet with the Sig’s fixed sights. The Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ gave a 1.8-inch average and was spot-on for elevation. The Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ met the standard with a 2.0-inch average, but it shot groups 3 inches high at 50 feet. Shooters choosing this load for self-defense should have guns fitted with adjustable sights to bring point of impact in line with point of aim. The Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ and Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ continued on to the next phase of testing. Recoil Level. Both rounds met our standard for controllable recoil. The Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ generated a 148.4 power factor (pf), and the Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ had a 152.3 pf, both well under our 200 pf ceiling. That’s one very nice thing about 9mm +P+ ammunition: For the power these loads are putting out, recoil is not at all bad. Penetration, Expansion and Weight Retention. Because of reader requests, we will be providing penetration, expansion, and weight-retention information for all rounds tested, not just those meeting our standards to this point. Therefore shooters who might have different preferences or priorities than Gun Tests staff members can make their own decisions. We’ll begin with the two rounds that, thus far, have satisfied all of our other requirements. The Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ expanded to 0.52 inch and penetrated 15 inches. Recovered bullet weight was 84.6 grains. Obviously, this bullet had eroded considerably; multiple lead fragments were found in jug #2, and there were more fragments in #3 along with the expanded slug. There’s a theory such bullet break-up is a good thing, that a projectile that expands so violently its edges actually shear off in water or gelatin will always expand in flesh. The Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ expanded to 0.69 inch and penetrated 15 inches. Recovered weight was 119.5 grains. The SXT bullet design obviously did its job well by generating great expansion and weight retention. http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/17_3/Ammo3.jpgAll the ammunition tested is marketed as police-only, as this disclaimer printed on the Remington box indicates. Though hard to find, these rounds can be legally sold to civilians.
Moving on to the other three rounds, the Federal 124-grain Hydra-Shok JHP +P+ expanded to 0.70 inch and penetrated 12 inches. Recovered weight was 111.2 grains. The Winchester 124-grain SXT +P likewise expanded to 0.70 inch; it penetrated 15 inches, and its recovered weight was 117.8 grains. The Federal 115-grain JHP +P+ 9BPLE penetrated 15 inches, shedding its jacket and coming apart in the process. There were two small pieces of lead in jug #2, likewise two pieces of jacket material. Moving into jug #3, we found two more small pieces of lead, the remainder of the jacket, and the severely eroded main portion of the bullet, 0.43 inches wide by 0.24 inches tall, weighing 51.4 grains. Taking every fragment that made it into jug #3 and weighing them together showed a weight of 84.7 grains. Gun Tests Recommends
• Federal Classic 115-grain Hi-Shok JHP +P+ No. 9BPLE; Federal Premium 124-grain Hydra-Shok JHP +P+ No. P9HS3G1; Winchester Ranger 124-grain SXT +P No. RA9124TP. Don’t Buy. The Federal 124-grain Hydra-Shok +P+ and the Winchester 124-grain SXT +P don’t offer enough additional muzzle energy compared to standard-pressure 9mms to justify buying them. The Federal 115-grain JHP +P+ didn’t meet our accuracy standard. • Remington 115-grain JHP +P+ No. R9MM4. Buy It. This load was within a few fps of posting the highest muzzle energy of any round tested. Its accuracy was acceptable, though not wonderful. It expanded violently and penetrated reasonably. If you choose this load, your gun should have adjustable sights, otherwise it might hit high. • Winchester Ranger 127-grain SXT +P+ No. RA9TA. Our Pick. While not the hottest ammo tested, this load still generated more than 400 foot-pounds of energy and was the most consistent ammunition velocity-wise at a mere 7 fps SD. Accuracy was decent. It expanded well, had great weight retention, and penetrated within acceptable limits. Either of these loads would make a superior choice for self-defense, though we lean toward the Winchester 127-grain SXT +P+ by virtue of its accuracy, consistent velocities, and that it hit point of aim with a fixed-sight gun set up for standard-pressure ammo. "

Would be nice if just buying the right combination of gun and ammo solved all the problems...but it's not going to work out that way. Reguarless of caliber, expect the person with the right mind set and skill to come out the winner in a gun fight. Would be nice to buy your way around that, but don't think caliber is as high on the list of "must haves" as the things you cannnot buy.

Geez, Zeppelin, you must be trollin' today. Not this tired, old "9mm is weak" garbage from those who worship at the .45 alter. (And, yes, I have a 9mm.)

And you need to do some more research on the 6.8mm cartridge. From everything I've read, the 6.8 is NOT going to replace the 5.56. It is going to be used in specialized applications. There may be stories to the contrary, but it's not a definite that the 6.8 will replace the 5.56.


""Unfortunately, as demonstrated by recent conflicts such as Somalia in 1991, the 5.56 simply lacks the "shoot-to-kill" lethality (numerous accounts exist of Somalian insurgents being shot repeatedly before they finally either died or lost the will to fight) needed to stop an attacker. This shift in philosophy (from shoot-to-wound to shoot-to-kill) is what the 6.8mm SPC represents. Though not much larger than the 5.56 round, it is undeniably more lethal. The real world effect of adopting this round can be seen how CQB (Close Quarter Battle) is conducted. In a room-by-room fight, the more rapidly an enemy combatant can be taken out, the safer the operation is for friendly forces. Since there's no time to evaluate a target's condition in a firefight, soldiers engaged in room-by-room combat will shoot each individual 3-5 times to ensure that they are dead. With a heavier, more lethal round, they need only shoot 2-3 times. While this may not seem like a significant improvement, it can shave valuable seconds off of engagement times (as the shooter shifts between targets) and mean the difference between having bullets left over at the end of the fight -- or having to swap magazines while surrounded by live bad guys. ""

Let's take a look at two of the largest Law Enforcement Agencie's in the U.S. The FBI and the La. PD. The FBI was the driving force behind the 9mm in the 70's and early 80's as they claimed the 9 to be the best and traded in their 45ACP's they came to this conclusion by feeding information into a computer. some years later the decided to actually test the weapons and found 3 rounds that all of ther requirements the 357,10MM,and the 45ACP. The 10 kicked too much and had too much muzzle blast so the FBI asked federal to down load the 10 and this became known as the FBI 10MM light load Next Smith introduced the 40 Smith shorter case higher pressure same ballistic while all this time other LEO's are following the FBI's lead.Next when a RFP is asked for inorder to purchase new sidearms for the HRT unit they buy 45ACP's WHERE IS EVAN MARSHAL AND ED SANOW when you need them......the next large order is also 45's. as for the LA.PD. there swat unit choose Kimber's in OH NO 45ACP the department spokesman said they needed a more effective round so as not to be OUTGUNNED seem's that these two agencie's need to educate themselves and move up from the ranks of gun shop commando's ooohh nnnooo say it ain't so Joe

These threads are FUN! :D Thanks for getting us all fired up, Zeppy!

I find it interesting that there are two basic attacks on the Marshall/Sanow book.

1. They don't like his ballistic theories (can't say I do either but I think all ballistic theories are a crock) so therefore the rest of the book is wrong, and

2. There is a vaguely worded condemnation of his data as being 'statistically flawed' or something to that effect (meaning they don't agree, yet have no actual rebuttal above the playground 'nah nah nah').

But.... nowhere ... has ANYBODY .... been able to come up with a substantial dataset that is different than the Marshall / Sanow book! Hello.... ????? Do you think that there is a big conspiracy to keep this information hidden? There are hundreds if not thousands of police agencies in this country with data on shootings, major organizations like the FBI with reams and reams of data on shootings, and not one single person can be bothered to go to the effort of researching this and 'proving' Marshall/Sanow wrong about their caliber rankings.

Not one. Not anywhere.

Let me tell you, boys.... the book that comes out with hard data that has a different conclusion, I'll be first in line to buy it! And you should too, cause we all ought to put some efforts into keeping ourselves above ground.

Ah... the FBI.... holder of the world's record for CYA when it comes to cartridge selection. Let's see, can't adopt a .45 ACP loading, because that had already been rejected. I know, let's take an existing caliber, and REDUCE it's performance below the good 'ol .45 ACP (told ya I was a .45 fan :)), and call it something new, and proclaim ourselves genuises! :rolleyes: Hey it would have been too OBVIOUS to just shoot 180 grain bullets from a .45, wouldn't it?

Funny, the more effective .40S&w loads are .... drum roll please.... 135gr. Which is surprisingly close to the 125gr. loads of the best .357s. And, in another bit of good news, the .40 spawned a highly effective .35 cal round, the .357 Sig, which has a great track record with.... 125gr. bullets.

Spot any trends?

On a serious note.... quite a few government agencies, including the police, purchase equipment supplies on low bid. Ask me about the time my neighbor came over (local cop), panicked because his new duty handgun (department issue), would NOT fit into his old duty holster (department issue), and he was not allowed to carry either a different gun or holster on threat of being fired :eek: Makes for a stressful day of work, let me tell you!

Took a couple of days for the brass to sort that one out! Fortunately, none of the officers had problems in the field in that time frame, but can you imagine?????

Thanks m141a,
This is what I found (srveral years ago) and stated in my earlier posts. ;)

Thanks m141a,
This is what I found (several years ago) and stated in my earlier posts. ;)

Mike G I would have more respect for their therioy's
or statistics if that's what you want to call them if they did not include minior wounds as one shot stops and if they would take into account how determend an advisary is A grizzly bear is muuuuch harder to STOP with one shot if he is in a determind charge than one that is not. Also my grandfather was in law enforcement for 32 years - 28 years as sherriff and owned and carried 38'&9's on a daily basis because of size and wieght, but when trouble might be the the order of the day he reached for his 44spl or 45.and the only person whom he had to shoot in the line of duty was with the 44 and one shot to the abdomam ended not only the fight but also ended his life.THis badguy was determined as he was bring into play a full automatic weapon,and was wanted for murder and arson in two states and had a large reward on his head both of which was not know when my Grandfather went out to question him about a local arson big bores worked then and they work now and do not need special +p+ loads are special bullets to work a +p+ 45 is a 45super and will clock1300+ with 185grain and Buffalo Bore's 45acp +p will cronograph 1200fps in my gun I want to see data on these rounds in fights.Also when I worked as dispatcher while college 3 escaped prisoner from Winnfield was stopped by one of our night deputy's and 1 of them turned on the officer wth a knife and cut him accross the stomach a struggle insued as the bad guy yelled for the others to help the officer fired and a one shot stop occured with the bad guy being DOA,weapon was a 45acp rimmed I know of these incidents personally And they were both determined attacks I didnot notice any lack of effectiveness because they were not useing Sanow and Marshall recomendated calibers or ammo OH yeah ammo in 44special 246grain ammo in 45auto rimmed 230 grain ball
DO NOT get me wrong I have never said that a 9 will not work I said then and now that my choice is the bigger of the two
MIKE G as for loww bid achoice of caliber doesnot change the price ie 9,40,45 same gun different caliber same money


oh yea great debate

MIKE G how does caliberchoice change the price? 1911' Sig's, etc different calibers in the same gun are the same price I know about loe bid but do not know about how caliber choice affects low bid on choice are you saying LA. PD and FBI picked 45acp caliber because weapons were less money in these chamberings?

MIKE G how does caliberchoice change the price? 1911' Sig's, etc different calibers in the same gun are the same price I know about loe bid but do not know about how caliber choice affects low bid on choice are you saying LA. PD and FBI picked 45acp caliber because weapons were less money in these chamberings?

What may get the low bid, is what the manufacturer / distributor has a lot of inventory of, and needs to move, that was my point.

RE: ammo choices, once you get past the caliber debate, volume purchases of ammo are definitely going to be price sensitive.

Back to the FBI/LAPD.... regardless of your take on their caliber choices, they've obviously changed their minds over the years a few times. Are we to assume that every choice they've made is an improvement??????

seems they all come back to the venerable 45 .....

Good!

seems they all come back to the venerable 45 .....

Good!

THANKS you tou got my point exackly I just finnished speaking with a retired Law Enforcment officer and a member of his depatments S.W.A.T.[before retiring] I asked him what what did his department use and why and he said " 45acp BECAUSE IT WORKS"

Oh, you don't have to convince me...
The Army waaaaaaaaay back when knew what worked...
Not to say some of Their ideas are bizzare....
but given the choices out there, and there are many...I still refer to the .45acp and/or the 45 colt as the "top guns".

now I know that'll open a bigger can-'o'-worms......:rolleyes:



22's
38/357
44mag/45colt

These calibers always stir up comments:D

MIKE G if you will checkout the RFP's the FBI sent out you will see that they specified caliber and that was 45ACP

Can't we all just get along?

I feel great packing a 40...how's that for compromise between the 9 and 45. Plus it knocked down the goats in France pdq.

A great run! Let's review:

1. There's only one published source of 'stopping percentages' for various calibers / loads; therefore you're either "for" or "against" the results. However it is not possible to rebut them, in a scientific fashion, since there is no other significantly large dataset (can't wait till there is... that'll start a thread or two, LOL).

2. Military experience with the various calibers is either relevant, or irrelevant, depending on whether we agree with the conclusion or not.

3. Decisions of law enforcement agencies are either brilliant & groundbreaking, or stupid and idiotic, depending on whether we agree with them or not (keeping in mind that some agencies have cycled through various calibers more than once!).

4. Personal experience, or the first-hand experiences of those we trust, override any other data, either positive or negative (and that's not real surprising, after all, human brains are definitely programmed to learn from experience).

5. All "stopping power" theories are much beloved by their authors and followers, and equally despised by the authors/followers of competing "stopping power" theories; and the only thing that they all have in common is that not one single theory can be proven to work 100% of the time....

Anything I missed?

I am just slow I guess because I do not see how you can call his pile of data scientific. The way I see scientific is everything has to be in an equall format and repetable his data wound include as a one shot stop a hit in the toe nail if they stoped and just like someone else posted about a man who was missed and fell down and then begged for medical attention would also be counted I just can not agree that this is scientific I wound consider the Thompson Lagard test as scientific you should read their test as it is quite interesting

That was great Mike, thanks for the laugh!

I am just slow I guess because I do not see how you can call his pile of data scientific. The way I see scientific is everything has to be in an equall format and repetable his data wound include as a one shot stop a hit in the toe nail if they stoped and just like someone else posted about a man who was missed and fell down and then begged for medical attention would also be counted I just can not agree that this is scientific I wound consider the Thompson Lagard test as scientific you should read their test as it is quite interesting

It's hardly perfect, but it's the best we've got. As far as toenail wounds being included - I'm fine with that. If that stops the perp, good enough. Isn't that what we're after? I'd just as soon not shoot anyone at all, and if I have to, the less the better.

Yes, you'll get some odd stuff, when you have a few hundred data points to sort through. That's the bell curve distribution for you, and it's why only 2 or 3 examples of anything are pretty meaningless in the big picture. You don't know where the data points came from. Sorta like chornographing 1 round and declaring you've got a standard deviation of 0 for your load.

MIKE I am begining to believe that the only difference between your view and my view is that you believe that Marshal/Sanow is the best data available and I believe that Thompson/Lagard is the best data avaliable they did tests that you could not get away with today And they also proved that no two wounds are idenical even with the same bullet,velocity,and target and is for more scientific than Marshal/Sanow.There test also proved that energy figures are meaningless,yet years latter gun wrighter's still quote the as gosspel

OK one more and I'm done.

I'm starting to get email about this (which is fine, I just haven't had time to respond yet) so I do want to clarify a few things.

First..... I rarely spend time on what I would consider 'pointless debate' threads. We've gone around the block a few times with .270 vs .280, .30-06 vs .308, .44 mag vs. .45 Colt, etc. Everyone has their say, then a few months later we do it all over again :D I might respond along the lines of, if you think you can find a deer that I can't kill with my .257, then I'll eat a live cartridge, primer and all, so quit complaining about the other guy's .270! But it doesn't bother me that the debate goes on and on, as long as people are polite. Heck I even used to think that there was a valid point in arguing what deer cartridge was 'best,' till I shot deer with a .280... and a .30-06... and a .257 Roberts... and a .22-250.... and a .35 Rem... and a .357 Mag.... and a .44 Mag.... and you get the point. They all tasted exactly the same!

However, I'll consider the issue of self-defense anything but pointless! It's my own hide on the line, and your's as well... serious stuff :eek: Deep down I'm of the opinion that there are a bunch of 'correct' choices and some 'incorrect' choices, but we each have to evaluate what will work best for ourselves, given the circumstances of our daily lives. Along the lines of the deer hunting... I've carried a .38, 9mm, .40S&W, .357 Mag, .45 Auto, and even a .45 Colt a time or two, as necessary. I never felt helpless with any of them, and was glad to have them all.

So, anybody who's dug through this might conclude I've given the 'big bore' crowd a few verbal knocks (and certainly received a few in return). My point was never to bash .45 caliber guns / projectiles... I've got revolvers, autos, a lever gun, a bolt gun, and even a muzzleloader in .45 cal :D I sure do like them! I'd have a .45 shotgun, if anyone made one, LOL.... Pigs, deer, turkeys, varmits, paper, bowling pins - the list of what a .45 is good for just goes one and on. A GI .45 was one of the first handguns I ever learned to shoot and probably one of the last I'd ever get rid of, if worst came to worst.

What I would hope to do with my responses, is trigger some critical thinking in each participant as to WHAT you would choose for self-defense and WHY. "Critical thinking" means digging through each and every single point of our decision-making process, evaluate the positives and negatives, and then make a fully-informed decision that really suits our particular situation. That ain't a trivial exercise, folks!

Think 'debate team' where you have to go through and respond to the other side's points / counterpoints, no matter how relevant it seems to be. In the end you strengthen your position by doing so, or find weak spots that you need to shore up. If I think you left yourself open by making a weak point, I'll jump right in there and attack that, even if at heart I might agree with it.

If you've gotten this far, and made an honest evaluation, and are real happy with what you have, then you should feel good about it. Likewise, if the discussion points out some ways that you could improve your choice in carry guns / ammo, GREAT! That's the point.

We have a confusing array of guns / cartridges / ammo on the market today. Good and bad... there's a product for every tiny niche in the market, but it gets real confusing, too, sometimes.

Still, it beats having no choices - "did you want Winchester .38 roundnose, Remington .38 roundnose, or Federal .38 roundnose with that Smith (or Colt) .38 revolver, sir?"

The debate will never end, I'm sure.... and that's fine too. Thanks for all the well-thought responses, we help everyone who reads this later, too.

Over and out!

Great summary

357 Mag hands down from personal experience not books.

Lets end the thread with a last thought.

If you are an experianced - practiced hand gun owner choose the self defense weapon your most comfortable with and can hit the target with good shot placement.

If you are not experianced and you are choosing a handgun for self defense then select a caliber that will overcome some of the accuracy issues you face.

Ask yourself a question: Its 2am and your waking up from a deep sleep to find somebody in your house walking down the hallway with bad intent. You dont have a 12 guage <mistake #1> and if you had the choice would you be more comfortable tapping 3 rounds of 9mm or 45?

I dont recomend a mag round like a .44 as it may pass thru the target and hit somebody innocent. <of course thats what the zeppy has next to his bed, I wont miss>

Great thread and thoughts from some of you on the issues at hand here.

Personally, I carry a 9mm in a g-17 platform with a load that has the best possible data relative penetration and expansion.

I also, as I sit here, am armed with a 1911 45acp with a spare mag in the back pocket. It also is stoked with a load that is considered effective in actual events and testing over the years.

Do I feel undergunned or lacking in something carrying either at various times? No, I don't.

I have practiced sufficiently with both over the years and can hit what I'm looking at either as soon as it has cleared leather from the hip if it is close or with one or two handed holds if it is further than real close.

Both loads out of either platform are the heavy weights in their respective calibers. I am of the impression that heavier bullets penetrate farther [ as a general rule ] and the idea is one needs penetration to get to the vital organs to have a better chance of incapacitating an agressor by causing the damage necessary.

Undergunned with the hi cap 17 rd 9mm? I don't think I am.
Undergunned with the 9 rd 45acp? I don't think I am.

Place em where they do the most good, have a record of deeper penetratrion than shallower, and continue to give them to the aggressor until they stop their unwanted actions.

Hit em where it hurts should be the first concern after carrying a bullet launcher thats reliable and will go bang when you need it.

Anecdotal to follow others leads: I witnessed a sgt. at arms biker shot once pointblank with a 25acp [ it was ball and penetrated well ] in the chest, collpase and die before anyone could do anything about it.

I also have seen a man shot with a 45acp pointblank in the chest and do the same thing [ it was ball and penetrated well ] in almost the same timeframe.

I know a cop who was shot in the chest through a solid wood door on the streets of Boston with 45acp ball. It penetrated his chest, traversed down his body through his leg and blew out his calf. He lived, but barely. The calf could not be repaired. He was out of the fight asap.

All three were shot with a bullet that penetrated deeply and destroyed vital organs. All three were ball ammo. Get in deep, cause some major damage and the fight can be over with what ever caliber you use most of the time.

If it happens to be a HP that expands as well as penetrates deep enough, so much the better.

Brownie

I often ask people who say a 9mm is weak if they are willing to let me shoot them with one. No takers yet. ;)

Sorry, I don't want to get poked in the eye with a stick either, but I would agree the stick wouldn't be the best choice for defense.
For those that think this subject has been talked to death, just avoid the thread. There may be many novice shooters out there that come here just for this kind of discussion. Heck we all started somewhere.
Now for my 2 cents. I think whatever gun you choose has to feel comfortable for you to shoot. If you can't hit the side of a barn with a .44 Mag., why carry one. For that matter if the only gun you shoot well with is a .32, by all means carry it. Get the most gun that you can shoot the best with. My personal choice is a .45 ACP, and I emphasize personal choice.
Don