Hi,

I'm new to this forum and need some help.

I shoot mostly 41 mags and after careful study of the tech manual decided to firelap a Ruger Blackhawk SS 41 mag. It was shooting well with .411" 230 gr. Keith bullets under 15 gr. Blue Dot. I was interested in bettering it and mostly removing the leading options.

I send 42 loads through it after reading that SS Rugers are a pain to lap. The throats were sized with the available tech info and the bullets are a perfect fit to the throats. The bore looks great. Problem is I can't get it to shoot better than about 2 1/2"-3" groups @ 25 yds!! This is double what it shot before. I'm FREAKING out.

I starting trying to figure everything it may be. I thought about removing the lateral play by fitting an oversized cylinder stop. Then I thought maybe I did something wrong with the tech procedure. I've torn the gun apart and checked everything. The one problem I'm having is that the 41 throats and bore make it VERY hard to get a lead slug started. The ones I have measure .470" and are Water Gremlin. The next smallest size I could find was like much too small. Consequently, I have trouble measuring bore constrictions, so I went with the 42 rounds and then the burnishing, and break in procedure. I just don't see how this can be getting worse.

My last thought is that maybe it was my shooting poorly. I haven't shot in awhile, but haven't had this much trouble before.

Is there anything that anyone can tell me to help? Should I try some more lapping loads or what?

I'm afraid I don't have any technical advice for you. However, I imagine you could rule out the possibility that your shooting ability has degraded by asking someone else to test out the gun for you.

CHASE
I am not a fan of fire lapping unless it is a case of last resort with nothing to lose and would never fire lap any gun that shoots acceptable 1 1/4" group with a bone stock factory gun is not that bad fire lapping will erode the throats and forcing cone if I wanted to polish the bore then I would have used bore paste and followed the directions I once almost fire laped a 22-250 that I was having trouble with,luckyly a top rifle builder cautioned me of the negatives of such action and I used bore paste and solved my problem if you have a cronograph and you check velocity I am willing to bet that you have lost velocity

42 rounds is just getting started lapping, with a Ruger!

OK... you need to find something else to slug it with. Fishing sinkers (soft!), swaged lead bullets (Hornady/Speer) in the next size up, .45 roundballs, etc.

Untill you slug it again, you don't know what you've done, or what remains to be done.

Now.... let's just say that the bore is cleaned up nice, for the sake of discussion. Your gun is a bit dimensionally different now; a little tweaking of your load may be in order. It may be shooting faster, slower, or something in between. Start with your previous load, and adjust a bit at a time.

Don't panic yet!

MikeG,

This is my first time doing this (as you can tell).

Here is what I did today. (Luckily I have the week off to play!!)

I very closly inspected to bore with a bore light after firing the gun, and again after a thorough cleaning. I found two things. First, there is a bright clean spot around where the thread choke would be (post firing) and then some leading and fouling after that. This lead me to believe that in fact there is still a choke in the barrel and I wasn't close to getting it out. Second, (keep in mind this is a fairly new gun) there was a wavy scratch on one of the lands about 1 1/2" in from the end of the muzzle. It was there when I got the gun new. It isn't deep, but it is easy to see. This scratch has not changed hardly at all, (inspected after cleaning) maybe not at all. I was thinking this must be due to the choke in the barrel that the lapping bullets aren't reaching the scratch yet (undersized maybe). Is this a good reference mark?

So, in light of that I decided to send 48 more loads down the bore. Not much change in the scratch but I did go from 3 1/2" groups back down to about 2" or a little less. I have 12 bullets left to use for lapping and then I'm out. What do you think? Also, I was thinkin' the same thing about the load adjustments and backed off a little, maybe that helped too. It's great to wipe lead and fouling out with the cloth!!!

Oh, also, how do you hold the gun when you're trying to slug it? In a vise? What do you clamp to if so? Also, the reason that I sent more loads through it was that I finally, after much fighting got a slug started and the slug got tight at the threads, so I thought some more bullets were in order. How many does it usually take? In a Stainless Steel I mean...

Also, do the other slugging objects work, I thought you were only supposed to use the sinkers with the hole through? Are there any sizes that are close to what I need?

42 rounds, but what abrasive prodical are you using? :confused:

I wish I could claim some higher moral, technical reason for having hand lapped all my revolvers other then I didn't know I could fire lap them.
Hand lapping has, to my thinking, advantage over fire lapping, you can easily find the spots that need the extra work. The hand lapping usually took two or three sessions to accomplish. Shoot the barrel, clean, check for constrictions, shoot the barrel...etc.
What I found most interesting is I found the constriction at the barrel frame junction as per expected but the were other small minor spots in the barrel.
Keep in mind that as you open the choke/barrelframe constriction you neen to increase the diameter of the bullet you put down the barrel!
Jim

Hold the gun in a vise with padded jaws. With the cylinder out, you can clamp on the frame, no problem. Good question, what exactly are you using for abrasive?

I've used a lot of muzzleloading roundballs; if they're close to bore diameter, they won't compress much, but you can drill a hole through the middle, and see if it makes a difference.

That mark you see near the muzzle is from their crowning tool, I've been told. Got a .357 Bisley with BAD marks in that area. Haven't shot it enough to tell if it will be a problem.

No, the lapping won't do any good near the muzzle if it's still going through a constriction under the frame threads. Slug it......

Keep the faith!

Alright, here is an update for today.

I sent the last 12 rounds lap-loaded down the bore. (I'm using the 320 grit Beartooth compound, and the rest of their kit for a 41 mag).

I realized that after shooting, cleaning, shooting, cleaning for like two hours, it gets to your nerves. I shot today with little work before and put six shots into 2 1/4" with the best 5 into 1 1/4". (maybe that one was my fault). I am out of lapping bullets, but have sent 100 down the bore and the fouling continues in the middle area but no where else. Should I be happy with the results or order more bullets? I still haven't touched that scratch on the lands, but 1 1/4" @ 25 yds isn't bad either. What is the normal amt of lapping loads been for everyone else? What accuracy have they got down to?

Veral's book says that stainless Rugers can take up to 200 rounds.

If you haven't slugged it yet, you sure need to at this point.

MikeG,

Have you had some good results from firelapping?

Also, I will try your advice about the muzzleloader balls and other objects of pure lead.

Since with all these rounds I haven't taken out all of the constriction, should I be concerned with forcing cone erosion by the lapping bullets, or is everything probably OK?

MikeG,

Have you had some good results from firelapping?

Also, I will try your advice about the muzzleloader balls and other objects of pure lead.

Since with all these rounds I haven't taken out all of the constriction, should I be concerned with forcing cone erosion by the lapping bullets, or is everything probably OK?

In my opion fire lapping a revolver is far different than fire lapping a rifle. In a revolver you are fire laping cylinder leads,and forceing cone,Is your cylinder leads tight? If not why why fire lap them? Is your forceing cone too tight? many times simply clean,shoot clean and shoot will take care of problems If a forceing cone is opeoned too much Velocity will certainly be less. I am not saying that fire laping is always bad just a few things to keep in mind.Marshall made some good points on the other thread about fire laping that if you have not read I recommend that you read

MikeG,

Have you had some good results from firelapping?

Also, I will try your advice about the muzzleloader balls and other objects of pure lead.

Since with all these rounds I haven't taken out all of the constriction, should I be concerned with forcing cone erosion by the lapping bullets, or is everything probably OK?

Yes, some of my Rugers have very rough barrels.... lapping sure cleans 'em up! The tight spots under the frame threads are something else, too....

I may not be a good enough shot to tell you how much improvement you'll get, but I sure enjoy not having to clean out a half a bullet worth of lead after going to the range!

Chase,

If you're still getting leading at an intermediate point in the barrel, ahead of where the barrel shank screws into the frame, it's a sure sign of a residual constriction remaining under the threads. Too, as Mike has pointed out, you need to slug the bore to be sure of what you're dealing with in regard to constriction, how much and where.

In these stainless Ruger revolvers I've found some guns to require in excess of 200 lapping loads to releive the constrictions in the bore. As far as the forcing cone erosion concern you mentioned, I've never seen a revolver properly firelapped to the detriment of accuracy, and when you think about the process of Taylor Throating, it makes even more serious alterations to this critical area than does lapping by any stretch of the imagination.

The crux of your problem still lies in a residual constriction as mentioned earlier in this post. Also, and not to be overlooked, as many people do, is the final step of polishing the bore at least 100 strokes as per the last instructions on the firelapping chapter in the Technical Guide. This is crucial, and skipping or abbreviating this step will severely hamper your success of the project. Even though this seems like a trivial and tedious process, make no mistake, it is crucial, and your final gilt-edge accuracy won't be realized until this step is thoroughly completed.

Hopefully this will help you acheive the accuracy these fine revolvers are capable of delivering! You're on the right track, just see the project all the way through, and you'll find that little revolver you are working on will most likely shoot better than you do!

If you have questions or concerns, please email me, as my time on the forums is really limited just now as I'm putting in 14-16 hour days in bullet production trying to get caught up. Email me at Marshall@BeartoothBullets.com and I'll try to get right back to you, as I check this address several times per day in between batches of bullets.

Thanks, and I hope this helps.

God bless,