Ok....done the thread and decided to go with the 45-70.
Now a question on reloading. Mind you I've never loaded a single bean before, just trying to digest what I've learned in the last few days. Not planning on loading anything 'till I can find an experienced loader to show me the ropes. But that said, I'd like to bounce a couple of questions 'round. For loading moderate recoil target loads, I get the impression that a slow burning less powerful propellent is the way to go. Also seems that keeping the case full or near full is important for safety. Bullet weight? 405 seems VERY popular. Cast v Jacketed. People seem to go for faster velocity with jacketed than cast. Is that due to physics of each? Are there special consideratons when choosing cast v. jacketed as far as taking care of the gun?

Maybe someone can recommend a web site or a book that is good reading for the beginner 45-70 loader.


Hope I'm not being too much a pest here. Thanks again for everyones responses to my last question.

jtex

Cases being full or nearly full is an issue of consistency. In a half full case, the position of the powder in relation to the primer will have an effect on powder ignition. Different powders are more susceptible to this problem. With a full or nearly full case, you are assured that there is powder up close to the primer where it will ignite well. I wouldn't really call this a safety issue, though I can see how you might work up a load safely and then discover it fires a lot hotter under different conditions.

I can't speak from experience, but I've heard that the Remington 405 grain bullet is not terribly accurate. Its popularity may be due solely to its low cost.

Cast (unjacketed) bullets are vulnerable to higher pressures. As I understand it, too much pressure causes the unprotected lead to break down and can cause inaccuracy and excessive leading in your barrel. Depending on the hardness of the cast lead, it is usually necessary to reduce the presssures of the load, thereby reducing the velocity.

An excellent book for a beginning reloader is the second edition of Modern Reloading by Richard Lee.

jtex, as a new reloader like yourself, I'd recommend getting Lyman's 48th edition Reloading Handbook - very informative, even has a nice article by Paul A. Matthews on reloading the .45-70 for Accuracy. I'd also suggest checking into and acquiring reloading manuals from Accurate Arms, Hodgdon/IMR, Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Sierra just to name a few. Some, such as IMR's reloading manual are free.

Another thing to do would be to take your time and read through the various threads in this forum and the reloading forum on this and other lever-action message boards and ask lots of questions.

Certainly a good idea to pay a visit to a veteran reloader to see how they organize their reloading sessions and what equipment they use.

Have fun with your reloading!

The moderator might steer you to the Handloading Forum but here is something you might want to look at. It's in this forums archives.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

The 45-70 is a great cartridge to load.

Good luck.

Jtex - do you have a friend or an acquaintance who can walk you through your first attempts at reloading? Reloading is much easier to learn, especially seeing as you will be using three dies, if you watch it done by someone who knows what they are doing and can answer your questions. Reloading is not difficult, but attention to detail is important. When I started I didn't have anyone to teach me so I bought a video from Varmint Hunters Association. I had read reloading manuals but I happen to be a visual learner, so it was easier to see it done than to read about it. There are several good reloading videos available, but having an experienced reloader guide you is still the best route.

One other comment, this one concerning powders. I would recommend that a first-timer to the .45-70 use a moderate to slow burning powder that does fill or comes close to filling the case. You will find that the recoil with slower powders is more of a push, rather than a hard snap, and you eliminate the possibility of double-charging. My recommendations would inlcude IMR 4895, H 4895 and Varget. Some people transpose numbers in their mind, so by using an alphabetically named powder like Varget you also reduce the risk of, for example, confusing 4895 with 4198.

Ditto on the IMR4895 or H4895. You will find it versatile in many different calibers. I have used it extensively in the 45-70 with satisfaction. It can be loaded up or down, within the limits of reloading manuals, to your needs. H4895 and IMR4895 are not the same powders, they are similar but with different limits.

Excellent!! This confirms what I thought I had picked up on in the forum(s). Nothing worse than "un learning" something.

I borrowed a Lymans 47th to read. Just had time for a glance, but it REALLY seems to have all the goodies inside. :) Having never looked at a reloading manual, I thought they were nothing but tech specs for loads. Whadda surprise! And a very pleasant one at that.

Again, many thanks! :)

Jtex - do you have a friend or an acquaintance who can walk you through your first attempts at reloading? Reloading is much easier to learn, especially seeing as you will be using three dies, if you watch it done by someone who knows what they are doing and can answer your questions. Reloading is not difficult, but attention to detail is important. When I started I didn't have anyone to teach me so I bought a video from Varmint Hunters Association. I had read reloading manuals but I happen to be a visual learner, so it was easier to see it done than to read about it. There are several good reloading videos available, but having an experienced reloader guide you is still the best route.



Sunday Creek, good to see you again and I hope the Lord is blessing you real good these days!



jtexfisher, I see you bought the Marlin 45-70. You will love to shoot, hunt and reload for it! It's a great cartridge.

I'll concur with what Sunday Creek said. Watching a veteran reloader will help you tremendously. It will also help the nervous shakes when you pull the trigger on your first handload (I sure do remember my first!).

Read all you can here and ask lots of questions like the rest of us did. Always practice safety and if in doubt "pull the bullet rather than pull the trigger".

Welcome to the Society of Sore Shoulders!



Perferator

jt:

You've received very good advice here. My only additions are to realize that the 45-70 is not the 458 magnum. Stay with the recommended loads for lever rifles such as the Winchester '86 and Marlin '95. It's also important to use only flat nose bullets in the tubular magazine of a rifle with this magnitude of recoil. Finally, do not listen to those who use over powder wads and fillers.

I have also used IMR3031 successfully in the 45-70. Cast lead bullets are now widely available up to 420 grains. Lead bullets are my first choice.

Follow your reloading manual exactly - do not substitute components. OK, I just had to say that :)

The Remington 405gr JSP is one of THE most accurate bullets you can use. Don't be afraid of it's low cost.

The 45-70 is a relatively low pressure round and safe to reload if you stay within SAAMI specs of 28Kpsi. You can move a 405gr bullet to nearly 1800fps with that pressure, so don't feel limited. Trust me, there will be a noticeable amount of recoil - you'll know when it fires :) Stay within the established loading guidelines as defined in your reloading manual. You will discover that there are often 3 pressure levels. Do not try loads intended for Ruger Number 1's.

Marlins tend to have large bores and some asymetrical constrictions due to letter stamping and broach cutting dovetails. Because of this, you may find it difficult to shoot .459" diameter cast. If you do decide to shoot cast, folks here can help you get started.

Hodgdon's Extreme series powders are great. H4895 is the slowest and safest, as you can't get enough into a case to damage a rifle. H4198 is the fastest that is useful in the 45-70, and you can blow a rifle with it. There are other good powders in between.

I suggest that you do some reading first, and then ask questions about presses, dies, powders, etc. I've seen some names on this forum who can really be helpfull.

Have fun!

Follow your reloading manual exactly - do not substitute components. OK, I just had to say that :)

It is acceptable practice to change components of a published load if one follows a few rules.
1. Get and use a chronograph.
2. Use published loads with a published velocity. Adjust velocity for differing barrel length.
2. Only substitute one component at a time and work up the load. Repeat with the next component change.
3. Only substitute bullets with those of equal weight and similar configuration. Some bullet designs are harder, and are longer with more bearing surface and deeper seating depth and should not be a substitution.
4. Primers of the same type (ie: large rifle) and cases of different manufacture can be substituted.
5. Reduce STARTING loads by 8% and work up carefully toward the MAXIMUM load watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity. (Read the warnings for load reduction with slow burning powders, large capacity cases and some small capacity cases with certain fast burning powders.) Never exceed the charge or velocity of a published load.

thanks again for the information. I've shot some variety of factory loads just gettin' used to the gun/round. Federal 300's, Federal 300's with the nosler (just a few, saving those for pig hunting at that price!!), and the Remington 405's. So far so fun! This should give me a good basis for comparing the handloads to later. Any other factory rounds ya'll can suggest for this test I'll just have to SUFFER :) through.

jt

5. Reduce STARTING loads by 8% and work up carefully toward the MAXIMUM load watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity. .

Great advice! Just one tiny observation: What pressure signs? To my knowledge and my experience, there are no obvious pressure signs, e.g. no reflowing or tophat'd primers, no casehead expansion. I've experienced sticky extraction with a 30-30, but not the 45-70, so I can only assume that if your cases stick then you must be way over-pressure.

Reloader 7 and AA-5744 are both good powders to try, as well...but the 5744 will burn a little dirty.

4895 is another good choice....

And you can get gas-checked lead bullets from Beartooth...as I have...and they are some bad bad boys...in fact got all kinda flavors....451, 458, 7mm and 312 dia...all gas-checked...that GC allows you to load to almost jacketed bullet levels.

You picked a good'un, jt. :)

Darrell

jtexfisher : PMC makes a great high-end load. 350gr at 2000fps. You might check around and see if anyone has them on their shelf. The price is the same as the Remington 405gr Express.

What pressure signs? To my knowledge and my experience, there are no obvious pressure signs, e.g. no reflowing or tophat'd primers, no casehead expansion. I've experienced sticky extraction with a 30-30, but not the 45-70, so I can only assume that if your cases stick then you must be way over-pressure.Does this mean you do not look for them? It is true that many of the classic signs of excessive pressure will not show up in the Marlin 1895 45-70 until one is over its safe operating pressure. Primers may not flatten or primer pockets may not loosen until one reaches around 75,000 PSI; so does that mean watching primer condition is worthless even in a modern cartridge chambered bolt action rifle? I think not. Casehead or expansion ring measurements are unreliable indicators of excessive pressure; sure are a lot of people who still swear by it though.

If one is watching the velocity of their Marlin 1895 45-70 work up loads it is possible that they will not see any classic signs of excessive pressure, even if the maximum charge or velocity are reached, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't watch for them and it doesn't mean one is way over pressure under those conditions.

How do you know that if you experience sticky extraction in the 45-70 that you must be way over pressure? You don't. As a matter of fact, sticky extraction can occur in the Marlin 1895 45-70 when one is somewhat over its safe operating but not even close to its proof load. Hence, it is a helpful sign of excessive pressure in the Marlin 1895 45-70. If you get noticable sticky extraction in a load increment compared to the previous one, and before the maximum charge or velocity are reached, its time to back off.

And finally, wouldn't you watch for signs of excessive pressure when working up a published load for the Marlin 1895 45-70 using the listed components? So I don't get your point, again.

Actually, I could just say watch for signs of excessive pressure and leave it at that because excessive velocity is a sign of excessive pressure. I just reiterate it for the benefit of the doubt and reinforcement of the usefulness of a chronograph in load development.

I just bought a 45 70 sharps from tristar. I am looking for ideas on loading rounds for it. the manfacturer suggests using pyrodex or an approved black powder subsutitute to keep the pressures low. I am looking at the 405 grain bullet. I am wondering if anyone else has loaded for this type of rifle.
Thanks for the help

I have fired a bunch of Remington 405 grain jacketed factory loads through my Marlin 1895 guide gun. It's my plinking load and they are plenty accurate for that. I'm not a hunter anymore but I wouldn't hesitate to use the round or it's handloaded equal for that purpose. All my other .45-70 shooting has been standard military trapdoor Springfield black powder loads in both a 1873 trapdoor rifle and carbine. .45-70's are a lot of fun. Wish I could get my hands on a left-handed bolt action carbine with receiver sights!