What would be a good bullet to load for a 45-70 stopping rifle? The rifle is a Marlin 1895 LTD III. It has an 18.5 inch, octagon barrel and full length tube magazine. I don't know the twist rate on the barrel. It has cut rifling not microgroove.

Alaska stopper means close range, brown bear, polar bear, moose, and mosquitos. (bad joke about the mosquitos). Should I just forego the effort of working up loads, and buy some premium commercial like Garrett, Buffalo Bore. Cor Bon or Conley Precision?

So far what I've gathered
Speer 350 gr. Hot Core, Hornady's 350 gr InterLock FP, the Swift 400 gr. A-Frame, and the 400 grain Barnes Original Flat Point all could be candidates. The "new" 525gr Beartooth is another candidate.

Can anyone tell me where I can find out the twist rate on the LTD III?

Thanks,
-cadjak

Starline brass, 405gr Kodiak bonded, and H322 at 1900fps is what I carry in my guide gun as a bear stopper. I also shoot a lot of 405gr rem JSP loads too. I can reload for pennies compared to buying the premium factory stuff.

ok, i guess my perceptions of a "bear stopper" or whatever is a little off. i thought 350 gr bullets were a little on the light side for something like that. what characteristics do you want/need in a bullet for doing that job?
thanks, john

I can't say whether their recommendation has any validity, but Garret Cartridges recommends their 540 grain 45-70 ammunition over their 420 grain for close-quarters shots against grizzly. This has to do with their theory on impact velocity and bullet strength.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/q&a.asp

Marlin's twist rate is 1 - 20".

rt

cadjak,

to stop Mr. Bear or worse yet the Alaskan Mosquito what you really need is an RPG.

Barring that Speer also makes a nice 400 grain Flat SP that in lever guns you can run at 1800-1865 depending on powders. The USGS guys I know are using Buffalo Bore loads though, not handloading.

The Speers are pretty soft, in my experience. Shooting them in my .458 at just a bit over .45-70 velocities, they seem to be on the verge of just exploding.

I'd go with heavy hard cast, myself.

Here are the only two 45/70 bullets you will ever need, on the left a Remington 405gr JSP, the right a 405gr Kodiak Bonded JSP. The Kodiak for moose and the big bears and the 405 rem for everything else.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid155/pccd31bd2c23f71ef9767008919f2fc71/f56070db.jpg

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/kodiak.htm

cadjak –

First, understand that I have never hunted black bears, let alone Big Bears – so my comments are based on range experience, penetration tests, the one elk I’ve taken with a .45-70, other animals I’ve taken with other cartridges over the last 20 years, and the 19 different loads I’ve worked up for my Marlin 1895 in .45-70. These loads include the 300g Barnes X; 350g bullets from Speer, Hornady, North Fork and Kodiak; hardcast from 300g to 460g; 405g Remington JSP; and the 500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid.

IMHO there are a number of good bullets available. For sheer penetration capability, there is nothing like a heavy hardcast or Speer’s 500g AGS Tungsten Solid. In my penetration tests a 460g Cast Performance WFNGC @ 1812fps penetrated into the 9th water jug while a Speer 500g AGS Tungsten Solid @ 1550fps exited the 9th jug and buried itself into the earthen berm beyond. The 460g hardcast loads are inexpensive and I would be very confident in their ability as a “stopper”. (I call them my “Rhino Blaster” loads.) Then there are Garrett’s 540g Hammerheads...

My own preference for general hunting bullets runs to expanding bullets that offer controlled expansion and hold together. Although expanding bullets will penetrate less, the expanded bullet will create a wider wound channel and transfer energy faster – at least in theory. If the bear is coming at you, the vitals are on the near end and that’s where I would want the bullet to deposit its energy. The best bullets in this class, IMHO again, are the Kodiak 405 bonded, North Fork 350g bonded (solid copper alloy shank) and Barnes 300g ‘X’. I would feel pretty comfortable with the 350g North Fork loaded to 2183fps, my current hunting load.

The 405g Remington JSP is inexpensive, but I don’t put it in the same class as the Kodiak or North Fork bullets. The Remington has a tendency to shed its thin jacket, becoming a 355 projectile. My thought is that I would be better off with the 350g North Fork launched at higher velocities. The Speer 350g bullet is heavily constructed, as it was designed for the .458 Win Mag and Africa, while the Hornady 350g is a little more lightly constructed. Both would probably work but, as with the 405g Remington, I would feel more comfortable with the bonded 350g North Fork and its solid copper shank. The Barnes 300g ‘X’ is a proven penetrator and its solid copper design means it will hold together. I haven’t found a load that will shoot these any faster than the North Forks in my Marlin .45-70, so I’ve stuck with the North Fork.

Just my own opinion, YMMV.

400 grain Barnes Original or at least an ounce of wide meplat hard cast.

I would first ask if this is a one-time trip or do you plan on frequenting big bear areas on a regular and prolonged basis.
If a one-time trip, I would take whatever Randy Garrett recommended and be plenty content.
If you are going to frequent these areas then you probably want a handload that you can work up and shoot frequently for practice. In this category three or four good choices have already been recommended. I would go with a hardcast, gas-checked bullet with a broad meplate, as Jackfish suggested.

so Beartooth's 425 gr hardcast with a meplat of 0.374 would be a good brown bear stopper?

so Beartooth's 425 gr hardcast with a meplat of 0.374 would be a good brown bear stopper?An ounce is 437.5 grains, but close enough! :D

This bullet has been getting a lot of attention at MarlinOwners forum. Called the Crater 550gr and Crater lite 420gr. They are very similar to the garret bullet. They come in two versions one designed for the marlin and the other for the Ruger No 1 and T/C encore with shorter throats.
http://www.competitor-pistol.com/jbyoung.html
http://www.competitor-pistol.com/images/1.jpg
http://www.competitor-pistol.com/images/8.jpg

This bullet has been getting a lot of attention at MarlinOwners forum. Called the Crater 550gr and Crater lite 420gr. They are very similar to the garret bullet. They come in two versions one designed for the marlin and the other for the Ruger No 1 and T/C encore with shorter throats.
Hmm, that cartridge on the right looks like a 450 Marlin. Hmmm ;) Is there load data floating around for it, too?

cadjak,
I would give Marshall's 425g WFNGC bullet serious consideration. I'm going to work-up some loads and see what she can do. The Crater Lites look good too, but aren't the meplats on the BTB 425s a bit larger? They were also designed to work in the 1895 actions...Let us know what you end up doing.

I've not hunted Alaska. But I've shot buckets of Winchester and Remington 405, as well as the old Speer 400, through my Siamese Mauser. This was all before I started casting.
Reading through the above postings it crossed my mind that loading one of the Remington, Winchester, Speer 400s butt first, would make on heck of a bear stopper. But might be difficult to feed.
It's my experience that the Remington and Winchester jacketed bullets are fragile up around 1,800 to 2,000 fps. But I've only shot trees, dirt, water, a bullet resistant jacket, Sears catalogs and phone books with them. [An observation, you would not want to be in the bullet resistant jacket and get shot by a 400 grain slug at 1,800 fps, would just ruin your day,]
So what's you guys with the experince think of loading the commercial jacketed slugs backwards? Make one heck of a wadcutter!
Jim

Starline brass, 405gr Kodiak bonded, and H322 at 1900fps is what I carry in my guide gun as a bear stopper. I also shoot a lot of 405gr rem JSP loads too. I can reload for pennies compared to buying the premium factory stuff.

I have to agree with the The Bear_78.There is not a better jacketed bullet around for the 45-70/450 Marlin than the Kodiak bullet built by Alaskans for Alaskan needs.The 405 Kodiak is used widely around Alaska by people whom do just what your asking about.There very stout and penetrate very well with a heavy jacket for penetration and shock that cast bullets just can't give you from lack of expantion.
My opinion only.....

Good luck on your choice.

Jayco

Man...that Garrett 420 gr. will get your attention real quick. So will the Buffalo Bore 430 gr. (The noise is almost enough to scare any bear!!) The 500+ grainers will sure give you a handful to grab onto in either brand, but if you inherit a small fortune or hit the lottery, I suppose you can practice before heading for bear-country. ;) They'll do the job alright...but be prepared for bankruptcy if you intend to practice much!

Never had the misfortune to have had to tackle Bear.ButI recon a 405gn Rem jhp is bad mediecne.On most large game (Yet to try one on the Mother in law.But I'm 99.9% conferdent it would slow her down enough for the 2nd shot)My personal favoraite ,For Water Buff & Camel is a 405 hard cast of my own manufacture mould by. CBE .It's a beauty!
CBE can be contaced at JIM.CBE@Bigpond.com.au
He produces some terrific moulds. :D