Got my brand new 94win in 25-35 and wondered if anybody still loaded this baby. I bought 117gr. Hornady RN and the 25-20 bullet that is 86gr. put out by Rem. Anybody have any favorite loads? I have nearly every powder in this speed catagory. Just wondered if there was a fav. load out there.

Amazingly, it was easy to find brass and bullets. Will have to try cast, although molds appropriate look to be high priced.

Have loaded 25-35 for a T/C pistol and spend a few years with a .25Rem. (different shape..same volume and pressure rating). Hard to beat 3031 as an all around powder in this case.

You did pick two of the better bullet choices...those 117gr. Hornady RN's are just about perfect for deer hunting with this caliber and the little 86gr. Remingtons are very expansive at these speeds....so you have big game and varmints covered.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8236

Heres a little to start the htread. As you can see I prefer IMR 4320. Hobie likes Winchester 748. Ribbonstone likes 3031.

Do you happen to know which distributor your dealer got your gun from?

I sure wish Marlin would come out with a rifle chambered 25-35.

After the Marlin rifle the next most needed item is a 100 grain Hornady JFN bullet. The Hornady bullets have a good wide meplat. A Speer Hot Core would be great too as the Speer bullet would have a better ballistic coefficient.

A few years ago Ken Waters called for this bullet in two of his Pet Loads articles in Handloder. Nothing happened as Waters was going into semi-retirement and at the time there was not a new .25-35 rifle available. All of that is changed now but we dont have the well known advocate for the cartridge and bullet.

I am beginnig to wonder if the Premier reloading internet board, Beartooth Bullets, should not make folders within the reloading forum to seperate calibers. Perhaps only the older threads would be dropped into the specific caliber folder. Or possibly a sort by caliber option to ease finding information that is .444 of .375 specific?
What other well moderated board has such specific, reliablereloading information on the .444, Shotgun slug, .375 Winchester, .30-30 etc?

DR A
I have this same rifle. I installed a williams peep, and have shot it about 60 times. This weekend I'll try to chronograph some loads.I tried IMR3031 and IMR4064. 4064 seems a little more accurate in my rifle (could be me). 25.5 grns gave me 2150 fps out of my 1950 vintage 25-35. This load also shoots good in my new rifle. I have heard people say 2300 fps is reachable but if my rifle is any indication, it won't be easy. I'll try some of the other powders that the guys listed. Slim is right about more bullets, we need some. I don't know who could champion our cause now that Ken Waters is kinda retired. Dave scovill maybe? It will help if winchester keeps the rifle around for awhile. Good luck with your new gun and let us know of any good loads you come up with.

William, I will e-mail the gunshop guy immediately. I know it was not Davidsons. The gun is not as pretty as my 356 and 9422, Stock has a dark stain (which I like), and the action seems very broken in. The trigger pull is again horrendous, but that seemed to lessen with use in my 356 by quite a bit. I find it hard to look at the action and to think about mounting a scope on these guns. I have mounted one on the 356 for load development, and found it obviously helps on longish shots. The 25-35 will be fun to dink around with. I don't need another whitetail gun, so if this one shoots smaller bullets, it will be a coyote gun. OAL is somewhat troublesome, and although it fed well, I can't get over how far that bullet is from the lands. You guys are right. A flat point in 100gr. is very much needed. The iron sights seemed somewhat more useful to me. The front bead is smaller than the Marlin, and the rear sight not quite as occlusive. Unfortunately, I don't shoot real well with any irons (or at least up to my shooting standards), so I scope virtually everything except my 357 carbine. I have used 3031, H4895, and BL-C(2). Cases were readily available from Graf's. I wish that Marlin made one, but of course they never did???. I wish they made the 25-36! Meanwhile, I impatiently await a real varmint gun in 218. Hopefully offered next year.

In my 24” barrel 2300 fps is just possible. I figure about 100 fps less with the 20” barrel.
In my 24” barrel with the 117 grain Hornady JRN 27.0 grains of IMR 4329, 28.0 grains of Winchester 748 and 27.5 grains of Hodgdon 335 all break 2300 fps.

My hero Francis Sell liked 30.0 grains of IMR 4064. I have shot this load but never chronographed it.

Fortunately 2200 fps is enough with this good bullet.

I think Scovill is our champion. No other gunwriter honestly uses the cartridge today. Beartooth Forum Member Greg Mushial is working with the cartridge now but he is not far enough along to report on it.

All of my efforts at finding one of these new Winchesters have come up dry. Good thing I have the TC to help cool the fire!

Dr. A, I would appreciate knowing where they are!
Francis Sell said that the smaller the bead the smaller the group. We have been testing this theory (through the fall and last winter) by fitting different sights to the Winchester M-94AE that i have pictured with the cut magazine. I have poor eyesight and with the smaller beads I need the sun at my back to shoot small groups. With the bigger beads I do well in most light. the round beads that come on factory rifles are difficult to shoot. Forum member chris Cash has posted on this some. He filed the bead on his .356 flat and improved his shooting.

I have a Marlin .218 Bee and it is aquite a varmint rifle for those critters under about 40 pounds. Over that the .25-35 has it beat soundly. The 75 Sierra JHP is the bullet for me. It is both accurate and efficient.
See if your library can get you Francis Sells American Deer Hunter, Advanced Deer Hunitng and small Game Hunting. the .218 Bee and the .25-35 are stars in these three books, along with the .348 WCF.

If you run a trajectory chart with the .218 Bee and the modern .356 you will see that they have pretty close to the same trajectory out to 200 yars. Sell called the Bee his understudy rifle. Still works today.

William, I stand corrected. The gun was at Davidson's on the 12th. I ordered the same day. I had expressed interest some time ago. Looks like they were all allocated, and I was on the list somehow from a point earlier.

Thanks, July will come, if I dont buy something else first!

William (or anybody). What crimp do you use. Found out I have to send in a case seated bullet to fit for the 25-35 Lee crimp die. Wonder if I could grind down a 250 Savage? Those crimps really spoil me for consistancy.

What crimp do you use. .


I have both Lee and RCBS dies. they both put on a nice roll crimp. I have found a crimp helps even in my single shot.

somebody has to be first on the Factory crimp die.
When my Dad ordered his .260 factory crimp die somone else had sent a cartridge in and lee asked a few questions and just made another to those dimensions.

William (or anybody). What crimp do you use. Found out I have to send in a case seated bullet to fit for the 25-35 Lee crimp die. Wonder if I could grind down a 250 Savage? Those crimps really spoil me for consistancy.

Don't think you'd have to do anything to the .250savage dies at all....just seat them farther up in the press and they will work as neck size dies.

Dr. A

I saw your post on the other board about cast bullets. This is not the best picture but it shows a factory Winchester 117 grain load, a Hornady 117 grain JRN, My NEI 110 grain cast bullet, the Remington 86 grain JFN .25-20 bullet and the 100 grain Nosler Partition.

These are load to 2.530" if I remeber correctly. You can see the NEI cast bullet has a good crimp groove. Loaded to the crimp groove this one feeds well in the Winchesters. Itis a pretty good bullet below 1800 fps. 1850 fps is pushing it pretty fast in the 8 and 9" twist barrels..

Here are some loads Parley found and posted awhile back.

Parley Baer SASS #24785 (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00009813)
Member
Member # 9813 posteddocument.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,9,17,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); 09-09-2003 05:59 PM <HR align=center width="100%" color=black noShade SIZE=1>
OK I found the December 1999 issue for you. Here are the cast bullet loads. All with Remington 9 1/2 primers. 25-35 Winchester brass. Parley

First group with 88 grain Lyman 257231 flatnose plainbase bullet.
1. 9.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1325
2. 10.5 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1550
3. 8.5 grains SR-4759 Velocity 1396
4. 10.0 grains SR-4759 Velocity 1510
Next group uses the 110 Lyman 257325 Roundnose gas check bullet.
1. 10.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1450
2. 12.0 grains IMR 4227 Velocity 1600
3. 14.0 grains IMR 4198 Velocity 1668 Good Load
4. 16.0 grains IMR 4198 Veloctiy 1845
5. 18.0 grains IMR 3031 Veloctiy 1640
6. 20.0 grains IMR 3031 Veloctiy 1805 Accurate
7. 21.0 grains IMR 3031 Velocity 1890

Was able to obtain 2220fps out of H4895. Was not at max, but close. Doubt it will go all the way to 2300. No worry, that was very accurate. I had problems with the rebounding hammer. Could be me, but I have taught myself to hold it so that the lever does not go down. Checked my primers last right, and all seemed OK. Entirely too many misfires. Out of 20 loaded, I had 3 misfires. I only had one out of 50 on Friday. Winchester says to send it in. I will hold off till after next weekend. perhaps my hurried late Saturday night technique had something to do with that.

On another note, the Hornady 117 expands VIOLENTLY! I called turkeys in and made my 2 kills. Soon after a coyote comes loping along. My call area is right behind my garage (good cover), and scurried around to the truck and got out the gun. Shot him in the chest and really tore him up. Wondering if this expands too well for deer? I got the gun for coyotes, so I am satisfied. Wish Marlin made their 25-36 again...

Dr. A.

I have necver heard anyone complain about the performance on our "dog size deer". The 117 Hornadys exit on most shots and do not have reputation for leaving their jackets.

Were you using the new gold colored Winchester primers? i have had a problem with these new Winchester primers miss-firing in several levercation rifles, both Marlin and Winchester. The silver Winchester primers and CCI, Federal and Remington do not miss-fire in the same rifles.

It is always a possibility that there is a burr on the hammer spring or on one of the struts. If you do not have the link on slicking a Winchester rebound hammer and trigger assy. let me know and I will attach it.
For bench work if I am switching from Marlins to Winchesters I sometimes need to think about squeesing the lever for the first shot or two.

I have that link, William. Thanks. I used CCI silver primers. My guess is that maybe its the gun. I will try to figure it out tonigt or sometime this week.

On one of these threads someone asked about the .25-35AI. I dont have an Ackley Improved in my collection but I do have a .25-30-30 Improved. Not certain who thought this one up. The case is 2.00" long. The reduction in length is due to blowing the case out. The shoulder is further forward than Ackleys Improved version. The shoulder on this one is a little smaller in diameter than Ackleys. They are close enough to compare for looks with the standard .25-35.
On the left is the Improved. A few factory .25-35's. On the right is a .25 Remington and then a .25-36 Marlin.

Lying on their side is a comparison of the protected primer.

The problem was primers were not seated. Too much of a hurry Saturday night for competant ammo making. Shot like a charm this weekend. Got a 1.3 inch group. It really likes both the Hornady and Remington bullet. Seems very accurate.

Slim,
Interesting pictures - I never saw the 25-30-30 imp. before. That may have been me asking about the 25-35AI. I was wondering if anyone had one and if they could get them to fireform from 25-35 without splitting the cases. I am currently waiting for my EABCO M97D 25-35AI falling block single shot rifle to be completed. I'll let you know how I make out with case forming and what ballistics I get from the 23" barrel it will have.

SMK,
I'll bet it is hard to wait! I like those EAB rifles.
I also like the articles on their web sire.

This one is a little different from Ackleys cartridge in that it has a shorter neck and the shoulder is pushed forward a little further. .25-35 cases were not commonly available and these are made from .30-30 brass.
When making your cases I suggest a .219 zipper No. 1 form die from Redding. I use that as my 1st step, then full length size in the standard .25-35 die. The cases grow and need to be trimmed. There is also a doughnut ring at the inside bottom of the neck that I ream out with a Forster case trimmer and ream. My TC barrel has a nice chamber but the reformed brass fits just a little better than the standard .25-35 brass.

My Winchester is due in on the 28th. As I compare it to the TC barrel I will then ream the TC barrel to Francis Sell's Tomcat. If I like it I will then ream the Winchester.

Your results will be good reading!

DR. A

I finally got out to shoot the new Winchester M94AE in .25-35. My Weaver V-3 has not arrived yet so we shot with open sights. At thirty five yards the rifle shows remarkable accuracy. Time will tell but this rifle looks like fun.

117 grain Winchester factory loads chronographed 2125fps from the 20" barrel.. Measuring the pressure rings the unfired cases measured .4126" and the fired cases measure .4128"

Using new .25-35 Winchester cases with 27.0 grains of IMR 3031 behind the 86 grain Remington (.25-20) bullet loaded to 2.55" these loads chronographed 2612 fps and the cases measure .4120" before firing and .4123"after firing. A very good load.

Using the 117 grain Hornady JRN bullet ahead of 24.0 grains of IMR 3031 I got 2216 fps with the .25-35 cases measuring .4122" after firing.

The NEI #23 110 grain bullet shot under 2" with my poor eyes and left a nice round group. In the .25-35 cases with 19.0 grains of IMR 3031 these gave us 1898 fps. I never do get very low extreme spreads with IMR 3031 and this load is no different. The E for five shots was 41 fps. These loads wore a light crimp. The pressure ring measures .4121". These loads are just not snapping these new cases out into the chamber.

Switching to reformed .30-30 cases I started off with the 86 grain Remington bullet ahead of 22.0 grains of Hodgdon 4198. This is a good load in my TC barrel. These loads were about 2.700" long and they were a tight fit in the Winchesters chamber. These gave us 2258 fps with easy extraction. The R-P .30-30 cases measured .4150" before and .4151" after firing. These cases have been shot a lot in the TC barrel and were full length resized prior to loading.

Using reformed R-P .30-30 brass full length resized loaded with 27.0 grains of IMR 4320 behind the 86 grain Remington bullet. This load gave us 2283 fps. The cases measures .4148 before and .4156" after firing. I believe this to be a rather mild load despite the .0008" pressure ring expansion. The extreme spread was 22 fps.

I can hardly wait for the scope.

Gents -

As William Iorg has alluded to - yes we're in the process of taking 25-35 (slow twist) data... but given a broken strongside collarbone it's been going more slowly then we hoped... but we have gotten some data. As per what we've been doing over on MarlinOwners w/re the 450Alaskan data, if there's interest I'll do the same for the 25-35.

These will the the links - (the links will not change over time, but the data on the pointed to pages will be updated as we shoot it).

PWV graph (powder weight vs velocity) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWV.jpg

GSV graph (groupsize as a function of velocity - 10 rounds from bench at 50yrds varmint style [ie, front rest only]) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spGSV.jpg

and the data :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86sp.htm

Of note: Unlike a "real" 25-35 which will tend to have a 1:8 or 1:10 twist barrel - we're taking data with a "slow twist" barrel (or more specifically, a 25-20 1:16 barrel which has been reamed to 25-35). The net results are twofold: 1) with only 22" of barrel we're seeing 24-26" 1:8 barrel velocities - with a 1:8 or :10 one should not expect to see these numbers; and 2) since in a 1:16 only half the energy is being put into spinning the bullet (vs 1:8), it is easier for the bullet to make its way down the bore, ie, we're going to see less peak pressure than than 1:8 barrel (keep that in mind if one chooses to use the data). Our intent given the body taper of the unimproved 25-35 is to keep the loads on the light side of hot - when we take the 25-35 Improved data, then we'll see just how fast we can make the bullets fly... but not until.

We offer this data on the basis of: this is what we shot, this is what we saw... and we got away with it, ie, this data may be entirely inappropriate for any other firearm than the data was taken with.

We're trying to get to the range tomorrow - if we do we'll add another 6 powders to the 25-35 collection. If such does happen I'll update the above linked pages with the extra data.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. we're looking at the 25-35st as a varmint round vs a deer cartridge, as such, over time our data will be limited to 60-90gr bullets (heavier than that won't stabilize). After we're done with the jacketed data, then we'll return and take the lead data [we actually started with the lead data, but it seems that the barrel we're using is one of the roughest Marlin has ever produced and as such are now using the jacketed data to "firelap" the barrel to make it lead safe - then we'll return to the jacket-free loads.]

[Quote] yes we're in the process of taking 25-35 (slow
twist) data, … if there's interest I'll do the same for the 25-35. [Quote]

I am very interested.

[Quote]PWV graph (powder weight vs velocity) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWV.jpg

GSV graph (groupsize as a function of velocity - 10 rounds from bench at 50yrds
varmint style [ie, front rest only]) :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spGSV.jpg

and the data :

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86sp.htm

[Quote]
I turned these into hyperlinks. For those who have not seen your graphs they are very interesting. The graphs show several different powders and raise the powder charge and resulting velocity up the graph line. You are able to compare powders for maximum velocity, rate of increase in velocity for each grain of powder etc. Very useful when trying to determine which powder is bulkier for cowboy or reduced velocity loads. Or which powder will give the highest velocity. The companion graph which compares accuracy to powder charge is the most interesting. 10 shot groups remove a lot of the luck factor. As long as there are not too many powders on the graph they are very useful.

[Quote]Of note: Unlike a "real" 25-35 which will tend to have a 1:8 or 1:10 twist
barrel - we're taking data with a "slow twist" barrel (or more specifically, a
25-20 1:16 barrel which has been reamed to 25-35). The net results are twofold:
1) with only 22" of barrel we're seeing 24-26" 1:8 barrel velocities - with a
1:8 or :10 one should not expect to see these numbers; and 2) since in a 1:16
only half the energy is being put into spinning the bullet (vs 1:8), it is
easier for the bullet to make its way down the bore, ie, we're going to see less
peak pressure than than 1:8 barrel (keep that in mind if one chooses to use the
data). Our intent given the body taper of the unimproved 25-35 is to keep the
loads on the light side of hot - [Quote]

This is very interesting. Dr. F. W. Mann and Townsend Whelen both experimented with slow twist barrels. Whelen had a Winchester Lo-wall in .25-35 with a slow twist barrel. This rifle was throated for varmint bullets and was very accurate. Estey wrote about this rifle in “The Woodchuck Hunter” and Whelen/Angier described it in “Mr. Rifleman”. My TC barrel is fast twist and throated for 117 grain bullets. It would sure be fun to have David White make up a slow twist TC barrel to compare the two.
SMK, do you know what twist you are getting in your EAB rifle? Your data will be interesting to compare with Gregs. There is no modern, reliable data with todays powders available for the .25-35AI that I am aware of. The two of you will share a first.

www.gmdr.com


[Quote]ps. we're looking at the 25-35st as a varmint round vs a deer cartridge, as
such, over time our data will be limited to 60-90gr bullets (heavier than that
won't stabilize). [Quote]

As I have said one of the most accurate bullets I have shot in my current .25-35 is the Sierra
75 grain JHP. I cannot wait to try this bullet in my new Winchester to see if it will come close to my TC in accuracy. If anyone is shooting the .25 Bullberry it would be interesting to hear from them also.

Got to the range this morning, and did add 6 powders to the 25-35 collection (vvn140, aa2015, h322, i4320, vvn130 and rl7). The graphs and html which the above links point to have been updated.

Some comments on the data (but all relative to our firearm):

- most of the top loads are max loads.
- the vvn130, 133, 135 and 140 appear to have room to go another grain; the 135 and 140, maybe 2 gr.
- the vvn120 data is the lower branch of its data, the 16-20gr branch is in process.
- the lilgun 16gr load is hot!

- for target shooting, the bullet/cartridge/firearm seems to have a sweetspot at or just under 2k fps - suspect given careful loads and shooting, one could go under 1 moa for 5 shots (not bad for a bulk seriously-long-in-the-tooth bullets).

- nicely, for hunting, one can load them hot (28-2900fps) and still really not give too much away in terms of accuracy - it's always nice when one can get away with such (which is not normally the case for leverguns). When we get to the 75gr sierra hp's, where the top loads should be over 3000fps, we'll almost be talking about a serious flat shoot'n levergun :-) .


Other than that: time for me to get a shower (and quit smelling like burned vvn140)... and get the brass into the tumblers and get ready for the next range trip... and another 6 new powders for the 25-35 - We'll post them when we've got 'em (probably next monday or tuesday - weather speculators are calling for showers tonight thru sunday, ie, good time to reload and be ready when it clears).

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. the 300 pieces of brass we're using to take the data will be on their 7th reloading... and at least as of the 6th reloading, no case stretch has been seen (at least at the .002" level), ie, although we're calling the loads max, the brass isn't being beat up.

pps. if we do the interior ballistics correctly, it appears that we're giving back about 4000 CUP in terms of pressure by going with the 1:16 barrel vs a 1:8, ie, the longtime industry standard 30gr i3031 max load, appears hot, but only moderately so (but not nearly the cratered primers one remembers from a 1:8 winchester shooting the same load of yesteryear).

ppps. the PWV graph is Velocity (fps) as a function of PowderWeight (grains); the GSV graph is GroupSize (inches, 10 shots, at 50 yrds, varmint style, from bench) vs Velocity (fps).

“Got to the range this morning, and did add 6 powders to the 25-35 collection (vvn140, aa2015, h322, i4320, vvn130 and rl7). The graphs and html which the above links point to have been updated.”

Greg, when I print these they are a little close in spacing of the graph lines. As long as I look at them on the monitor I am able to magnify them a little and separate the lines. I wish I could separate the powders say between ball and extruded. It would make the graph a little less crowded.



”- for target shooting, the bullet/cartridge/firearm seems to have a sweetspot at or just under 2k fps - suspect given careful loads and shooting, one could go under 1 moa for 5 shots (not bad for a bulk seriously-long-in-the-tooth bullets).”


If I remember correctly your barrel is a rechambered .25-20 barrel? In my TC barrel the 110 and 117-grain lead bullets have not done well above 1800 fps. The Winchester showed promise at 1850 fps and a little over. This may be due to a different throat. The TC barrel has a sudden beginning to the rifling.


”- nicely, for hunting, one can load them hot (28-2900fps) and still really not give too much away in terms of accuracy - it's always nice when one can get away with such (which is not normally the case for leverguns). When we get to the 75gr sierra hp's, where the top loads should be over 3000fps, we'll almost be talking about a serious flat shoot'n levergun :-) .”

At 2.450” COAL you have quite a jump to the rifling with the 86-grain bullet. I need to compare the diameter of the nose of the 75-grain Speer to the 86-grain Remington. It seems like the Speer bullet has a larger diameter just ahead of the crimp grove. That could be helpful.


” pps. if we do the interior ballistics correctly, it appears that we're giving back about 4000 CUP in terms of pressure by going with the 1:16 barrel vs a 1:8, ie, the longtime industry standard 30gr i3031 max load, appears hot, but only moderately so (but not nearly the cratered primers one remembers from a 1:8 winchester shooting the same load of yesteryear).”

I wonder if part of those pressure signs in the Winchester could be due a large firing pin hole in the bolt? I have encountered what I considered early sticky extraction in the TC with no other indications of “high” pressure. I attributed this to the TC extraction system. Jay Turner wrote in Handlaoder magazine about similar extraction problems with published load data in his TC Contender. Turner tried cleaning his chamber with acetone prior to shooting and that helped a little but did not solve the problem. Turners solution was to switch to the wildcat .25 Bullberry. This is a minor “Improvement” in case shape.
Whelen wrote small references to the lower pressure and higher velocity potential of his slow twist .25-35. Have you considered trying some 100-grain spitzers in your slow twist barrel? The Nosler Partitions shoot quite well in my fast twist TC barrel. I’ll see how the do in the Winchester this weekend as I just mounted the Weaver V-3 on it. I'll attach a picture but I am not much of a photographer. These 20mm scopes seem to fit the lever guns just about right. The Weaver V-3 is just about the right size. A straight 2x is just as good and has less bulk and no worry about fiddiling with the power change knob!

William, sir,

I'm short on time this a.m.... but I uploaded a PWV graph where the different powders are split out into individual graphs

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWVsplit.jpg

does this help?

do shoot straight,
greg

ps. I'll followup on the other input/comments when I get back (got to go keep ARCO/BP in business ;-( )... as always, many thanks!

Greg,
I appreciate that!
Notcie the way Varget breaks over above 28 grains. In the .30-30AI when we saw that on the graph the groups began to open up slightly.
Notice the way IMR 4320 only has that slight break on the last grain of powder increase. I have never had a real good handle on IMR 4320. the only cartridge I have found ot to be truly useful for is the .25-35. I have used it in the .250 Savage but not in a serious test.
IMR 4895 may be even better. I need to compar IMR and Hodgdon 4895 and see how they graph out.
V.v. N120 looks like the shinning star.

Wow.... Thanks Greg. Looks like I have some shooting to do. Those are my favorite bullets so far and I have had really good luck with the H4895. I have many of the others and will try them out, although a bit more carefully cause of my fast twist. I really like this rifle. Too bad its virtually gone. (25-35) I went and bought 500 cases the other day because of insecurity. The cases seem to be lasting. Gun works great on Varmints. I have a rinky dink 4X rimfire Bushnell banner and got myself a pretty good group at 200 yards. Really encouraged by this gun.

slim,
My EABCO rifle has a 1:10 twist and I just got a call that it was shipped yesterday, so I will soon get to start playing with loads.

Thanks, and YeeHa! I'll bet you cant wait!

Sunday Creek and I had a good discussion a few years ago on brass for the .375 Winchester. I wrote some on the .30-30Ai in that thread. I have made both .30-30AI and .25-35 brass from .375 Winchester brass. I did not find that I could increase pressure any significant amount using this heavier brass. What are your brass plans for your .25-35AI?
I am using all three basic cases in the standard .25-35 but they are not interchangeable. All three have different case capacity and visual pressure indications along with bullet point of impcat and velocity are different between the .25-35, .30-30 and the .375 cases.
I find I must inside neck ream to eliminate the doughnut at the base of the neck when forming .25-35 brass. I think your new rifle is going to be quite a toy! Forum member John Anderson and I both want a .25-35 Tomcat so we will be watching your posts!

I am going to attempt to just fireform current manufacture Win 25-35 brass. I have about 300 new cases left over from the ones I have been using to make .219 Zippers out of. If they split I was going to anneal some and try that. After that I will resort to 30-30 or 375 and follow some of your advise on forming. It should be a fun project - a new toy in an unusual gun and chambering that I have no real experience with !

I think you will split quite a few in the shoulder.
Consider going to the Sinclair web site and looking for a mandrel die. These allow you to neck up with a tapered mandrel. The mandrels are ioterchangeable. Then you can size the cases in your .25-35AI die and form a secondary shoulder. This will support the case during fireforming and reduce case stretch.

To borrow a phrase: if this is tuesday, this must be "a data taking day" - ie, we added 6 more powders to 86 sp collection (RL10, i4350, i4064, h4198, blc2, aa2520) this a.m. - data pages pointed to by the links in previous posts have been updated.

Quick notes:
- i3031, i4064, i4350 loads were weighed, the rest thrown.

- still seems to be a sweetspot (in terms of groupsizes) just below 2000 fps.

- 25-35 seems to appreciate the modern (ie, non-IMR) powders.

- still using original 300 cases, ie, no losses yet

- if one plots GS as a function of either ES or SD one finds there is no slope to the data, ie, the internal ballistics are not the limiting factor in reducing groupsizes (ie, the bullet is).

Will hopefully have time to become a member of this thread again by the weekend... otherwise, back to turning out lines of code (another 90hr week in progress) :(

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Bringing the links forward (vs having to search back through the thread for them)...

Velocity as function of PowderWeight Graph (all powders on one graph):

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWV.jpg

with each powder in a pane:

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spPWVsplit.jpg

Groupsize as a function of Velocity graph:

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86spGSV.jpg

and data table:

www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86sp.htm

(once all the data has been taken the collection will be added to the Additional data on the website, ie, making it easier to get to vs the specific links above.)

greg

Greg, in reviewing Hodgden's data, it would appear that the pressures on a regular twist 25-35 are much greater with the likes of Benchmark in particular, and that if we used the dose you listed for 2800fps, it would be way over 40000 in pressure. I know you mentioned the rifling difference. Is it going to make that much difference? Do you know the pressure those top Benchmark loads are running out at? My experience with Benchmark (although limited), is that it always runs more accurately at higher pressures.

Also, BLC (2) data does not jive with yours at all. They were able to obtain much greater velocity safely. They also used much greater amounts of powder with it. Are you running low pressures on your BLC (2) data? Reviewing Hodgden's data, I am inclined to use this powder. In reviewing yours, Benchmark would be my pick (of what I can get and have).

Thanks for all the info.

Greg,
Have been offline for awhile.
Look at the comparison of group size between RL7, H322 and Alliant Reloader 10. RL 10 looks like a sleeper in this cartidge.

I put in my request for the 10 grain bullet from Speer. Here is their reply. So, if you want a bullet send them a message.

[Quote]William: Here is how the system works. We take the customer input and send it to the New Products Committee for evaluation, they do the Marketing research and choose to make it or not add it to the product line. That evaluation would include how many 25-35 Win rifles are on earth and what they feel annual sales will be. Your request is on its way to the committee. Thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts.
Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/SPEER Tech. Service Coordinator [Quote]


On a similar line of thought...
Englander and I have been discussing the .25 EGGS, “Efficient Game Getter Short”. This is formed from the .221 Fireball and is similar to a .25 Whisper. While thinking about this efficient little cartridge I have made up a pair of .25 caliber cartridges. Pictured from the right the .25-.222 and .25-.223. I like long necks so these have a .258" neck length. Both of these cartridges are “over length” for short actions and long bullets. The .25 EGGS appears to have ballistics very similar to the .25-35 Tomcat - with higher pressure, a smaller case capacity and rimless case. The .25 EGGS is short enough to work in a .223 length action with long bullets seated well out of the case. While looking at Greg Mushials slow twist data I am becoming interested in a slow twist light bullet .25 caliber rifle. It appears a rifle with 1 - 14" twist and throated for a 100 grain bullet might be a pretty fair turkey and whitetail deer set up.
If any of our Forum members from Australia having any more information on the .25 EGGS I would like to hear about it.
Moving to the left are the standard .25-35, .250 Savage and .257 Roberts. Then the .25-30-30 Improved, .250 Savage AI and .257 Roberts AI.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8236

Heres a little to start the htread. As you can see I prefer IMR 4320. Hobie likes Winchester 748. Ribbonstone likes 3031.

Do you happen to know which distributor your dealer got your gun from?
William,
I got my Winchester 25-35 from a gun shop in Albemarle , N.C. Maybe he can get you one. It's called Jr's Gun Shop. If you want the phone# let me know.
james

Finally got the software out the door late last night... so, assuming one doesn't get clobbered by another oak tree and the car's willing: we should be able to post the last 6 powders for the 86gr sp this afternoon. (after this addition, if anyone can make a strong case for adding additional powders, we'll add them; but otherwise, then we'll be onto the pointy'er bullets (75gr vmax, 75gr hp etc)). Now time to get the range kit into the car...

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Got to the range, got the data... and the pages the above links point to have been updated (powders added: H414, H4895, aa2460, H380, H4227). (We also took the upper branch of vvn120 data, 16-20gr - but given we had run out of the old single groove bullets and ended up using the new 2 groover's (only use in the collection of data) - and since this is essentially a difference bullet, we left that data out: why mix apples and oranges).

Again: general comments -

- the bullet is the limiting factor w/re groupsizes - it's a good mule for taking data, but it's not up to what the gun can/should be able to deliver (1 MOAish). Probably a great bullet for the 1930's, still a good hunting bullet... but not a benchrest bullet (and now with the two crimp grooves, even less so).

- the top i3031 and i4320 loads, at least in this Marlin, are more than the gun wants (which we find a bit surprising in that they're both standard industry top 86gr loads from yesteryear). The rest of the loads we'd happily reshoot (in terms of pressure). These loads didn't blow anything up, but we were left with the impression they were at the gun's limit (which is never a comfortable place to be).

- finally lost a piece of brass (of the original 300) - in loading for this range trip, found that in the previous data taking one of the loads had split a neck (looks to be from work hardening vs over pressure). 7 reloadings isn't up to the 20 and 30 we see in CAS 4570 loads, but isn't unacceptable given the intensity of the loads being shot.

- in looking over the brass: after 7 firings, the case stretch is running btwn .003 and .005" - before we take the vmax data, we'll trim them all back to saami std length to standardize the cases. At least as of this last reloading: all primer pockets are nicely tight.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. more detailed comments on the data to follow - need some beard scratching time to put 'em together.

A more detailed exposition of what we did, why, and what we saw.


How we got to the loads we chose to shoot..

Or said differently: how does one go about developing/testing loads for a cartridge for which the most recent data is 40-50 years out of date? Our answer is to find what data is available, shoot it, get a sense of what max pressure looks like, and then carefully extrapolate from there to the more modern powders.

We were able to come up with 1205 loads from the old Ideal manuals (1924-1950), Sharpe (1939), Belding&Mull (1949), and some semi-modern data (hornady, hodgdon and handloaders). (We even found a couple of loads in the VV3 manual.) Of the data we found, more than half was for powders which don't exist today... but out of what was left was enough to get started. This provided the starting spot.

Over and above the old 25-35 data, we also rounded up 1300ish 250 savage loads... as vetting device for the 25-35 data, ie, the 250 data should always be n grains or n % heavier than the like 25-35 load. The 250 data can't be used directly for reloading, but can be use to keep one from loading a 25-35 round which they'd rather not shoot.

Ackley data was also included in the collection, but generally as a upper upper limit of what loads were acceptable (generally find Ackley data to be very hot - he came from the school that: if one can get the action open with a 3lb sledge it's ok, if it takes a 5lb'er then it's too hot - in our book: having to use the 3 lb'er means the load is too hot.)

Additionally, in order to keep a sense of what pressures we were operating at, we found older data with pressures. The assumption being that: if a simple extruded grain produces x velocity with y pressure, more modern, more "degressive" powders should be able either reach a) the same velocity at a lower pressure, or b) a higher velocity at the same pressure. (Remember when Varget first came out and people were impressed with the velocities they could reach, without going over pressure...)

Beyond that, we also relied on the fact that the 25-35 had a good 50 year run, and although the data is dated, a consensus generally had been reached in terms of what was acceptable (in terms of pressure) and what was over pressure. We used those accepted max loads as our upper pressure landmarks... (and since we were using a 1:16 barrel, and the data was taken as "should be safe" in a 1:8 barrel, we took such as a little buffer in terms of pressure, ie, what's safe in a 1:8 should generate even lower pressure in a 1:16 (using the two IBPs we have access to: one suggests a 2600 CUP reduction in pressure, the other 4000 CUP)).

To make use of data for powders for which there was no data explicitly for a 86 or 87gr bullet, but was data for 60's, 75's and heavier, by plotting the data as acceptable PWs as a function of BW, one can interpolate the missing data.


Why the 86gr Rem Softpoint to start with?

A couple of reasons: 1) we've have had quite a bit experience with the bullet in taking 25-20 data and 256 win mag data; and 2) for a first bullet for a new cartridge (in terms of data taking), why waste good money launching premium bullets, especially if one doesn't know if the loads will be worthwhile or not, ie, start with the bulk bullets, and then move to the Bergers etc. The previous experience is important in knowing how to judge a new cartridge, eg, a bullet that shoots .5 MOA in several cartridges, but in a test cartridge shoots 2 MOA - then one might know to start looking for a ballistics problem - without that knowledge it's harder to know what's a problem and what's "that's just the way it is".

Of note: the 86gr SP's we used were from the mid-1990's, ie, they were still with only the single crimp groove (positioned to make a 1.600 oal in a 25-20... since they were 25-20 bullets). As we got to the end of the data taking we were running short on bullets (after all these years - had been running on this stock of bullets for a decade) so ordered up a 1000 from Midway... only to discover that Rem has added a 2nd groove. Instead of mixing bullets within the data, we cut the 86gr data taking short. We have taken some data using the 2 groover, but are generally impressed that they are a lesser bullet, with a lower BC (likewise, they seem to seal less well generating less velocity for the same pressure).


More on the firearm and the reloading process...

We're written on this above, but to make sure all the info is in one place for others reading the thread:
The firearm is a Marlin m375 which has had the 375 barrel removed and had a 1894cl 25-20 barrel fitted. The 25-20 barrel had been reamed to 25-35 win (much like we did for the 256 win mag data taking). This means the twist rate is that of a 25-20, or, 1:16 twist (vs 1:8 thru 1:10 for a "real" 25-35).

Although the targets are formally chrono backing targets, given that we're all target shooters around here, the group sizes are representative - probably somewhat better than what a hunter would see in the field, likewise, probably somewhat worse than what a full-on benchrest type would see. The targets were shot at 50 yrds, the groups are for 10 shots. A front rest was used, but not a rear. The scope is one of our trusty bsa 24x BR scopes.

The brass is from a box of 500 from the 90's. After each range session, the brass was inspected and then in bulk tumbled, and likewise stored. When brass was needed for reloading pieces were picked at random from the storage boxes, ie, brass was not cherry picked. The die set used was rcbs'd std 25-35 fl dies set, ie, not their cowboy dies. Other than the i3031, i4064 and i4350 all loads were thrown; the above were weighed. Before throwing a load, the uniflow (powder measure) was calibrated to +/- .02gr (or better - done by throwing 10 loads and buying that extra digit on the scale). Most of the powders are a year or less old (powder doesn't last long around here). All powders (and primers) are stored in 54-58degF magazines. The brass hasn't been trimmed, either initially, or since. Primer pockets haven't been cleaned. Of the orignial 300 cases we lost one to a split neck after the previous round of data taking; and in checking the brass from the last data taking we lost another (split neck, from 15gr h4227 load, ie, a moderate load, not a max load).

The data was taken at the temperatures indicated, all loads were heatsoaked for 30min-2hrs at temp before they were shot. The temperature range across the data was kept so 10degs +/- (so one can compare apple and apples). One should/would very much expect the temperature sensitive powders to generate significantly more velocity and pressure if shot on a hot summer day, ie, what we perceived as max loads at 50degF, could be well over the top at 110degF. The range is at 1800ft, the RH is nominally dry; winds were near calm (at much over 5mph we pack). The data was taken with an Advantage Automation lab chrono; data was collected in real-time via AtTheRange; data was stored in rcbs.load v3.20, graphics produced from there.


W/re Bullet Seating Depth

In looking at the historic data, the 86gr SP is nominally seated so as to make a 2.530" oal cartridge. Our chamber won't accept such high seating (if we put a bullet in the mouth of a fired case and close it in the action, the resulting oal is 2.480"). We went with 2.450" as an oal, giving .030" bullet jump to the rifling. This also gave us a 1.7 caliber seating, or, significant bullet tension, or hopefully, an aid to better ignition/combustion. Seating at the 2nd crimp groove gives a .100 to .150" BSD (ie, .5 caliber or less). Since such a round wouldn't chamber, we didn't try any.


What we saw, in general

- We came away impressed with the 25-35. Although we don't see it as a replacement for the 30-30 and its 170gr bullet, the powder capacity of the 30-30 (aka 25-35) seems to be a better match for 75-90 gr bullet and the resulting trajectories. (the 307win is to the 170gr .308" bullet as the 25-35 is to the 86gr'er.)

- For the slower powders tested, the full case or near full case loads performed well; the lighter loads for the same powders exhibited significant ballistics instability (read: incipient detonation) and other than for doing interior ballistics research should be avoided. RL10 and Benchmark are especially worth noting.

- The slowest pistol/fastest rifle powders did quite well (if one didn't push them too hard). This is where we'd look for target loads. LilGun continues to impress, ie, haven't found a cartridge yet for which it didn't work well. The vvn120, h4227 and even h2400 did more than acceptably well.

- We weren't impressed by the generated pressures... with the exception of the max i3031 and i4320 loads (although they're (were) very standard industry max loads, even given the reduced pressure of the 1:16 barrel, given the primer shape/flow, we'd rather not shoot them again in our firearm (especially given that the same velocities can be reached via other powders, which don't exhibit the same apparent pressures)). Case stretch after the 7 or 8 reloadings runs .004 - 006".

- The median groupsize (10 shots, 50yrds) runs 1.5" (quite usable for hunting, and not bad given the bulk nature of the bullets). The median ES was 70fps, the median SD 25fps (not bad for 27 powders).


What we saw, powder by powder

AA2015
2 groupsizes (of the 5 shot) less than median groupsize for all 86gr groups - 1.29" smallest, 1.81" largest. 2 SDs (of velocity) better than median (25fps). Slightly faster than i3031, should be able to move up to 29+ grains. Not a bad powder, just not the best.

AA2460
2 GS < median, 1.20"-1.71", 1 SD < median. Being a ball powder, meters well. 28gr load well short of 30gr 3031 pressure, max may move up to 29 or 30gr - but being a ball powder, can't be compressed. Another ok powder.

AA2520
3 GS < median, .95"-2.7", 1 SD < median. Slightly faster than i4064, max should be able to move up to 29+ grains (being ball, never compress). A maybe ok powder - but didn't like the ballistic instabilities exhibited.

BLC2
3 GS < median, 1.25"-1.70", 0 SD < median. As a ball powder meters well (hey - had to say something good about it). Slower than i4046, runs out of case long before pressure.

Benchmark
3 GS < median, .96"-1.82", 0 SD < median (that's a surprise). Meters well. One of our powders of choice. Slightly slower than i3031, runs out of pressure and capacity simultaneously, ie, spot on correct RQ for the application. A modern i3031?

H2400
4 GS < median, 1.00"-1.72", 4 SD < median. Meters ok, performed better than expected, still 2nd or 3rd choice to LilGun or H4227 for target use. 16gr listed as max load in historic manuals, but in fact seems quit a bit short of max.

H322
1 GS < median, 1.32"-3.2", 3 SD < median. Meters well, should be a powder of choice if it shot better.
A little faster than 3031, runs out of pressure before case.

H335
0 GS < median, 1.57"-2.2", 2 SD < median. A ball powder which meters well (again, had to say something positive). Half way btwn 3031 and 4064 in speed.

H380
0 GS < median, 1.56"-2.6", 2 SD < median. As a ball powder meters well. Runs out of case capacity long before pressure - btwn i4350 and i4064.

H414
1 GS < median, 1.41"-2.2", 1 SD < median. As a ball powder meters well. Runs out of case long before pressure.

H4198
3 GS < median, 1.07"-1.79", 4 SD < median. Meters "ok". RL7, VVN130 class; good ignition, will look to for the lighter bullets later.

H4227
3 GS < median, 1.18"-1.89", 5 SD < median!! Meters well. VVN120 class, very good stats, should shoot better - will look to for forthcoming lighter bullets. A choice for low velocity loads.

H4895
1 GS < median, 1.23"-1.90", 2 SD < median. Meters more or less (but better then IMR). Not a great shooter (again, better than IMR) - just runs out of case before pressure.

IMR3031
2 GS < median, 1.21"-2.7", 1 SD < median. Doesn't meter! 30 grains long standing industry standard max load (which is slightly compressed with a 2.450 oal). Showed very real signs of trying to detonate with 24gr load. Loads less than 26gr not ballistically stable! One of the first powders which allowed the 25-35 to perform (1934). Runs out of pressure and case simultaneously. Right RQ for application, wrong powder. 30 gr load, although standard max load, is too hot by our taste.

IMR4064
0 GS < median, 1.92"-2.5", 2 SD < median. Doesn't meter! 31 grains another industry standard max load. For the 86gr bullet, runs out of space before pressure. Long used as a 25-35 powder.

IMR4320
2 GS < median, 1.23"-2.4", 2 SD < median. Kind of meters. Another long used 25-35 powder. Runs out of space before pressure. 32gr load is too hot by our taste.

IMR4350
1 GS < median, 1.48"-2.4", 0 SD < median. Does not meter! 32gr load slightly compressed. Runs out of case long before pressure. Generates lots of partially burned grains.

IMR4895
1 GS < median, 1.27"-2.6", 1 sd < median. Meters poorly. Runs out of case before pressure. Possible detonation with 25gr load (117fps SD, 337fps ES). With H4895 available, why bother.

Lil'Gun
4 GS < median, .61"-1.76", 5 sd < median!! Meters well.Probably THE target load powder for the 25-35. 16gr load is probably at max. Won't set speed records, but at reduced velocities: one of the finest shooters. Amazingly ballistically stable even with light loads. Makes the 25-35 into a very accurate 25-20 (w/ the 25-20 std bullet)

RL10x
5 GS < median, .83"-1.49", 3 SD < median!! Meters well. High velocity accuracy champion. Runs out of pressure before capacity, by a little; slightly faster than AA2015. Very clearly THE powder of choice (for the application) - fine statistics, fine shooting.

RL7
3 GS < median, 1.45"-1.98", 5 SD < median. Meters ok. In the VVN130, H4198 class - 2nd choice to H4198, better than 130. Did better than expected.

Varget
2 GS < median, 1.09"-2.29", 2 SD < median. Meters ok. In 4064, 4320 class, an also ran.

VVN120
4 GS < median, .82"-1.65", 5 SD < median!! Meters ok. Very stable even in light loads. A fine shooter. Will be revisited for the lighter bullets.

VVN130
1 GS < median, 1.45"-2.6", 4 SD < median. Meters ok. Stats better than average, but shot less well than median GS?? In H4198, RL7 class (where either is a better choice).

VVN133
1 GS < median, 1.21"-2.2", 1 SD < median. Meters ok. AA2015, H322 class, average shooter, average stats.

VVN135
4 GS < median, 1.29"-1.56", 3 SD < median. Meters ok. Max load might to to 30gr. Slightly runs out of pressure before capacity. H322 class (but performs better).

VVN140
1 gs < median, 1.10"-2.0", 3 SD < median. Meters kind of ok. 4320, Varget, 4064 class powder - runs out of case long before pressure.


Where to from here...

We still have lead bullet data to take (77gr 257420's) - probably will do 30ish powders, velocities will be in the 1100-1600 fps range. In the jacketed bullets, we'll take a subset of the 86gr powders and take data for Speer's 75gr FNC (in our experience, a target version of the 86gr Rem), likewise, hornady's 75gr Vmax and Sierra's 75gr HP. We may try some 60gr hornady FPs, but given previous experience (called: why bother) - we may take only a few powders.

After that the question is: which 25-35 Improved to stepup to: ackley's 28deg or 40deg Improved? or a Tomcat? The other question would be: continue to take data with the short 22" 25-20 barrel, or really try to milk the cartridge for all the velocity we can (think: flatter shooting varmint use), and chamber the improved in a 26 or 27" #7 or #8 contour target barrel (but again, on the same m375 receiver). Choices, choices...


do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. the data pointed to by the link in our previous posts will added to the "Additional Data" collection on our website (as time permits - taking more data comes first).

I have been starting to work with my EABCO 1:10 23" 25-35 AI 40deg. Case forming has proven fairly easy. I have had only one failure with fire forming annealed ww 25-35's and sectioned cases look very uniform but are thin - .0085" at the start of the shoulder compared to .012 or so at the neck. I only got about 50% good cases if I fire formed without annealing. I also formed some out of 7-30 Waters in one step by using a .250 Savage die set at the right ht. These only require a very slight amount of fireform to complete. If I used my 25-35 AI die on the 7-30 it tended to buckle the case about half the time. I also got good cases out of 30-30's using a half dozen methods with stuff I had laying around stepping it down with 219 Zipper form die #1, 7-08, 6.5x55 (too long really to do much), .250 savage, but I found I got nice cases ready to fire form by just using the Zipper form die number one and then go right to a .250 Savage. After this you don't have to anneal because the fireform is less severe. I am sure there are better ways and I may make some real heat treated forming dies at work that step down from 30-30 in three steps (all you are doing is stepping down the neck) or I may make some from Grade 8 7/8" x 14 bolts - I think these would be hard enough about 40 RC. I am not sure yet what I will settle on.

As for loads I have only tried two so far. 32 gr of Varget with 100 gr Sierra MK gave right at 2600 fps and is not max. I think 2700 will be easy with Varget. I also tried up to 34 gr of 4320 and got 2740fps and it is getting close to max. I can't imagine getting to 38 gr like Ackley did. I'll post more when I get farther along. It won't be the wealth of data that Greg is posting, however! The EABCO is a nice gun - good trigger and good accuracy so far. This little 25-35 AI is surprisingly powerful - it actually kicks a little and has a fairly big muzzle blast! My gun is light and short though.

SMK -

Interesting (especially since there's a 25-35 Improved in our near future). Question: what type of loads were/are you using to fireform from-the-box 25-35 win brass? Did you have time to twiddle the loads and see if the loss rate could be reduced? Curious minds have got to know... especially since we're going to have to make up 300-400 pieces not too far down the road.

thanks... and do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

ps. do you have access to one (or more) CNC mills/lathes? Likewise any interest in automatic generation of G-code/M-code programs to produce forming/loading dies and/or chamber reamers? Let's take this to PM or email.

Greg,
At first I tried a real small charge of bullseye (4gr maybe? I don't remember) with cream of wheat in the basement just to see if I could get any good ones and it worked. I then loaded 10 gr of sr4759 behind ancient 87 gr sierra's I inherited and this worked fine, but the shoulders were rounded quite a bit. I then went to 12 gr of sr4759, same bullet. These formed a little sharper, velocity is around 1600. If you want really sharp shoulders you may want to go more, but I don't know if this will increase fallout. I only had one failure out of 50 using this charge (maybe I didn't anneal one correctly) except for the 10 cases I tried without annealing of which 5 failed.

Sean

Greg, in reviewing Hodgden's data, it would appear that the pressures on a regular twist 25-35 are much greater with the likes of Benchmark in particular, and that if we used the dose you listed for 2800fps, it would be way over 40000 in pressure. I know you mentioned the rifling difference. Is it going to make that much difference? Do you know the pressure those top Benchmark loads are running out at? My experience with Benchmark (although limited), is that it always runs more accurately at higher pressures.

Also, BLC (2) data does not jive with yours at all. They were able to obtain much greater velocity safely. They also used much greater amounts of powder with it. Are you running low pressures on your BLC (2) data? Reviewing Hodgden's data, I am inclined to use this powder. In reviewing yours, Benchmark would be my pick (of what I can get and have).

Thanks for all the info.

Dr A -

The top of the day to ya... let me see if I can't speak to your three concerns (which we share):

1) "they were able to use heavier loads" - I don't think they actually did; maybe they did, but don't see how. BLC(2) is a ball powder and doesn't tolerate compression. With the OAL we're running, or conversely, given the BSD we're using, there's only 29.1 or 29.2 gr of capacity (w/o compression) left. I don't know how much more they "used", but likewise, I'm not quite sure where they could have put it. We shot 29.0gr and thought it was very nearly a 100% density load [the 29.0gr loads didnt shake; the 27.5's one could hear the powder]. If they got significantly more powder in... I'm always for learning new tricks/tools/methods.

And to somewhat buttress said position: if one plots the published max BLC2 loads as a function of bullet weight www.gmdr.com/levern/2535blc2PWBW.jpg there's a nice quadratic fit to the top loads - 29 or 29.1 grains fits nicely for a 86 or 87 gr bullet (even if the fit is linear then 29.0 is only going to be .2 or .3 gr over the fit).

Yes, they might be able to squeeze a bit more in by going to a shorter BSD (bullet seating depth) - one can pickup 1.31gr per 0.100" one decreases the BSD - but one can only go so far that direction... ie, we take 29.0 as being within a few tenths of the actual physical max, if not max.

2) "they got more velocity" - actually I think not. Yes the published numbers are larger... but in all likelyhood, they're the wrong numbers. (This is in reference to the 2666 fps number in H23-H26, gone in H27.) This one had me going for a while, trying to understand why the difference.

If one looks at clean, normal data, one should see, as we referred to in the previous post: (assuming a PW vs V graph) - the lighest bullets with the heaviest loads go with the highest velocites, and conversely the heaviest bullets with the lightest loads go with the lowest velocities. Two examples of this would be: www.gmdr.com/levern/2535h4198pwv.jpg (hodgdon's 2535 data from h23-26), or www.gmdr.com/levern/250savBLC2pwv.jpg (hodgdon's 250 savage blc2 data, from h23-26) - (velocity as a function of powder weight graphs, PW in grains, V in fps). In other than pathological cases, this is what good data *should* look like - it's pure physics. I believe the problem with the 2666 number is: it doesn't fit with the above progression of powder weights, bullet weights and velocities. Hodgdon's H23-H26 86gr BLC(2) 25-35 data: www.gmdr.com/levern/2535blc2PWV.jpg If one takes the above as given (the progression/standard picture), and that 29gr is the max load for the 87gr bullet, then wouldn't the "87,j" trace top end be around 2550fps? Our data says 2530 fps. (quick digression: with 10 shot ES's in the 100+ fps range, what is the chance that by picking a 3 shot window (assuming they used 3 shots to establish values) one could see a 30fps higher value. Chrono screen from BLC2 data - lightest loads on left, max on right, velocity in fps www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86grBLC2chronolog.jpg , in contrast (data where 3 shots might get on by), H4227 in same context: www.gmdr.com/levern/2535-86grH4227chronolog.jpg )

3)"Benchmark loads may be well over pressure, over 40k CUP" - the 29 gr load might be... but I suspect not. Of the loads we shot, the ones I'd like to turn the wick down on are: the max i3031 load, the max 4320, the max Varget load and the max RL10 load. The 3031 and 4320 loads just feel too hot. The Varget load didn't show any pressure signs, but 2850 is a lot of velocity for that cartridge, we'd probably back it down a grain. And again, the RL10 max load - didn't show any pressure signs, but 2800 fps with such a fast powder (for the application) - yes it's a well engineered powder, but physics is physics - we'd back the max down a grain (until we could prove the extra grain is within reason). Maybe the Benchmark max load is over max; but if it is, given its placement on the PW vs V graph, it's not by much (.5 gr??).

Of note: when we're done with the bulk of the 25-35 data taking, we'll go back take CHE data (using fresh brass etc) for various of the loads, BnchMrk included. We may not be able get absolute pressures, but we should be able to get a sense of the pressures for the unpublished data (based on velocities and pressures for published data). It should also be interesting to see if the "modern/advanced/engineered" powders do in fact generate more mv per CUP (by reshaping the time-pressure curve).

Your comments, please...

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Greg,
That work thang has kept me on the fence rail this week.
I have not run into any of the two crimp groove Remington bullets yet. I will be interesting to compare them. I am using a COAL of 2.530 for the new M-94AE and the Remington bullet.
I am curious about the new Remington bullets dimensions. My current Remington bullet measures .250" in the crimp groove and .247 just ahead of the crimp groove. This is why I must seat them so long in the TC barrel. These 86 grain Remington bullets measure .257" at the base and .256" just below the cannalure. We can say they are a taper from the base to the nose.

I have some bulk Remington 100 grain bullets I hope to get a baseline on.
These bullets measure .256" at the base. .255" just below the cannalure and .250" in the cannalure. The 86 grain bullet is .693" long and the 100 grain bullet is .950" long.
Both of these bullets have thin jackets.

I am just getting ready for my trial of Reloader 10 and the 75 grain Hornady.
Looking at your median ES of 70 fps for all of your loads I am again impressed. I believe a lot of your consistent results are due to your chronograph technique. It is very hard to set up on a public range and keep distance from the start screen uniform from session to session. I have never taken the time to set up a good bench and permanent chronograph stand. I use a portable leaning bench made of PVC for a lot of my home shooting.

I may have posted one or a hundred times how poorly I think of Winchester 748 and Hodgdon BLc2. Your results with Benchmark are of interest as I find this a pretty good powder for several other cartridges and I have a good supply.

Your comments on IMR 3031 are interesting. I think 3031 is just on the edge of too fast for the standard .30-30 and I urge anyone who will listen not to use this powder in the .30-30AI. 3031 is working at its upper limit pressure wise when using listed maximum loads. Modern powders are far better for the .30-30 class of cartridges.

IMR 4320 has proven to be very reliable for high velocity and good accuracy in my 24" TC barrel. I believe I read somwhere is the past - perhaps Dean Grennel - that 31.0 grains of 4320 was max in the .35-35. I have limited myself to this load with the 86 grain bullet. The TC has poor extraction and anything over this load gives sticky extraction in my rifle. The Winchester M-94AE gives every indication it will shoot heavier loads and I will explore this.
31.0 grains of IMR 4320 gives the 86 grain Remington 2740 fps in my 24" TC and at 100 yards I can count on five shot groups in the 1.30" range on most outings. The difference between 1.30" and 1.60" is just a wiggle on the bench so I don’t get those groups every time.

Are you using gas checks on your 257420's? I have just cast up a bunch and I guess I could shoot them both ways for a test.

For your Improved chamber you know I vote for the Tomcat. Francis Sell had several very good ideas with this cartridge. The mild Improvement eliminated case forming worries. That is to say Sell did not want to use intermediate dies. I have read that somewhere but cannot tell you where now. The Tomcat gives up very little in practical ballistics to the Ackley version and with the design goal of forming brass from .30-30 cases the Tomcat may be very economical.
I believe that Francis Sell and Ken Waters were right on the money in choosing the 24" barrel. It is a good compromise. I get surprising velocities and have the added benefit of reduced muzzle blast. The 24" barrel is not silent but it does not give off as loud a crack as the 20" barrel.
Barrel contour depends on whether we are primarily hunting deer or varmints. Personally I would make the barrel just a little heavier and if I had the choice I would go for the slow twist. Figure out how long a 100 grain Speer bullet will be and throat the rifle for that. I sure hope Speer is listening! If Speer will make the 100 grain bullet it and the Sierra 75 grain J.H.P. will probably be the only bullets I use.

SDK - My Dad uses bolts for his form dies and also makes black powder compression and re-forming dies for jacketed bullets from the. The bolts from the Orient are heat treated but still pretty soft.

You may have forgotten but Greg is taking his data with a broken collar bone! I broke mine last summer and waited a “bit” longer than he did before moving up from the .22's!

Greg, I don’t have RCBS Load running at the moment but I assume you are also looking at the Pacific reloading book. My book shows 30.0 grains of IMR 3031 with an 87 grain bullet getting 2790 fps. Pacific used a COAL of 2.2530" so it must be the flat nose bullet.
The same Pacific book lists 32.0 gains of IMR 4320 with the same bullet getting 2720 fps.
I am looking closely at the Pacific 100 grain bullet data and will start with the starting loads.

Townsend Whelen is his book “Why Not Load Your Own?” lists the same Pacific load data. Whelen used a Low Wall Winchester so I doubt he had any extraction trouble. Whelen lists the same 2.530" COAL but I certain I have read of other COAL dimensions for his rifle.

The most modern powder listed in Matterns “Handloading Ammunition” is HiVel so we don’t have a lot of help there.

Dear readers of this thread -

Out of curiosity - this thread has what I would have called a disproportionate number of reads, ie, I didn't even think that many shooters even knew that the 25-35 exists or ever existed. I'm actually heartened by the read counts, ie, maybe the 25-35 has future. My question is: what is the level of involvement/interest in the 25-35 by those reading this thread? Looking to reload? Already own one? For historic reasons? Thinking about owning one? Curious minds have got to know... ;) Many thanks.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Greg, I have two Marlin 1893's in 25-36. So, I like seeing the 25-35 loads as I don't cut the cases back as much to let it reach the 25-36 size by using them. Definately a plus to see your data.

I have a 25-35, and though I prefer Marlins, was heartened by Winchester offering a "Varmint caliber" for those of us with the current interest in lever actions. Interesting you mentioned that today, because I spent the day going after the prairie dogs. I took my 22 Hornet, my 22-250, and my 25-35. I connected easily with the former two, and though I struggled with the 25-35, it was mainly because of the limited range of the 4X scope. I did connect on several shots ranging out to 210 yards. The bullet is rather frangible, and the results were spectacular. Ran 50 round through it today with H4895 going about 2600fps. At this point, it looks like I could easily use a 4-12X scope on the thing.
Something else completely unrelated, is that my son (6 years old) connected with 5 prairie dogs! :cool: :p . Ranges 36 to 51 yards. He was shooting a 17HMR in a Marlin bolt action. I am one proud papa. :D (Just had to put my 2 cents in)

Greg
This is my second 25-35, both win 94's. (carbines) I bought this one because my other is not drilled for scope or peep. I live in the northeast and the 25-35 is not popular. Woodchuck, coyotes, deer would be the main targets. (there are not many chuck fields left) I will be interested in your 117 grn bullet data.I will carry my rifle scouting in the fall and maybe deer hunt with it. I reload but have stuck with the hornady bullet. I wish someone would bring out a 100 grn fp. I don't see the round becoming popular in this region the second time around either ( there is already a used one for sale in the shop) Thank you for supplying all this data.

Range session cut a little short this morning due to mud and water. . No Benchmark loads shot. Will have to shoot those in the backyard.

86 grain Remington, 27.0 gr of IMR 3031. 2653fps E 49, SD 21. This loaded to 2.550" long, the bullet touching the rifling.

86 grain Remington IMR 4320 27.0 grains. 2266fps, E 49, SD 23 This one loaded to 2.489" oal to feed through the magazine..

117 gr Hornady Rd Nose with 24.0 gr of IMR 3031, 2217fps, E 37 and SD 18.This load does not appear to be maximum.

100 gr Nosler Partition was loaded with 29.0 gr of IMR 4320. 2531fps, E of 40 and SD of 19fps. This load is at lest one grain over maximum. I will measure the pressure rings and add that info. The primers exhibit just the beginning of the primer starting to flow back into the firing pin hole. The edges of the primer are not sharp and have not flowed out to the edges of the primer pocket. Still the signs clearly indicate this is maximum+ for the Model 94AE. This load gives sticky extraction in the TC barrel.This is an accurate load that gives me hope for the 100 grain bullets in the Winchester.

I shot the NEI 117 grain cast bullet into a group about equal to any of the jacketed bullets. The load was 19.0 gr of IMR 3031. This load giving 1776fps with an E of 63 and an SD of 24fps. I was looking to see if this load was position sensitive. It gave not indication of trouble with the cartridges loaded through the magazine.

The 100 grain Partition load may have given a lesser pressure indication if loaded shorter. The Benchmark loads I have loaded up with the Remington 100 grain bullets are seated shorter so we will see.

Back in the ‘80's when Reagan changed the rules on mail order cartridges and Tillinghast and a few others were still selling collector cartridges from lists I collected a great many different .25-20 and .32-20 cartridges. Why I did not think to add to my gaggle of .25-35's I don’t know. The internet has changed the collector cartridge game quite a bit, availability and prices have changed significantly. I will not play the bid games of the auction sites so my cartridge collecting days are about over.

Mattern in his Handloading Ammunition writes about some .25-35 cases having the small rifle primer. Does anyone have an example with the small primer?

Logan and Datig don’t spend much time on the cartridge. I have not seen the WCF books yet. They are at the upper limit of my book price range.

The 1940 Shooters Bible lists ballistics for 11 different.25-35 loads. 10 are 117 grain bullets and one 87 grain bullet is listed.
The loaded cartridge list has seven 117 grain cartridges for sale with one 87 grain load. Two of the 117 grain loads have boat tail bullets, some of the are Open Point Expanding (OPE) or hollow points. Does anyone have a .25-35 cartridge in their collection with a boat tail bullet? Does anyone have a .25-35 with a OPE bullet?

Mattern lists a number of 100 grain loads for the .25-35 in his book. He lists loads up to 2500 fps but does not mention the bullet mfr. Mattern does say the 100 grain load with the Lubaloy bullet at 2550fps and HiVel powder is a high velocity load at low pressure. He also says the 100 grain bullet at 1450 is THE squirrel load.

I have been asked some questions about the killing power of the .25-35. I believe it is adequate under todays conditions for unalarmed deer. Kenneth Fuller Lee coined the phrase “Killability” in the 1940's. Here are his words.:
“For purposes of comparison we can group the .25 Remington rimless and the .25-35 Winchester, as they use bullets of the same weight and the loads for these cases are practically identical. These loads are available in several types of arms at the present time, the Models '94, 55, and 64 Winchester lever guns: the Remington automatic and the slide-action taking them. There are still a few of the Stevens Hi-Powers chambered for the .25 rimless in use, and now and then one runs across a specimen of the old Standard gas-operated rifles taking this same load. About the only bolt-action arm chambered for such cartridge-was the Remington Model 30. Using the 117 grain bullet at approximately 2300 feet per second and delivering a blow of about 1300 foot pounds at the muzzle, these loads work fairly well on deer and even black bear under ideal conditions.
The writer has shot plenty of deer with these loads, and has hunted with others who used them with good success, but they are distinctly not to be considered as suitable for use on deer in the hands of anyone but an expert. My own experience in hunting with the .25-35 has taught me not to use it on quartering or straight-away running shots, as the bullets lack sufficient weight and punch to assure deep penetration under such conditions. If standing shots at a broadside target at reasonable range can be obtained, and you are confident of placing your shots in a vital area, these little cartridges will turn the trick nicely on deer.
No gun salesman who knows his stuff will ever sell such an arm to a green hunter. It is true that such rifles are accurate, that they are light and very handy to carry in the woods, that they have very little recoil . . . and will kill medium-heavy game when all the conditions are perfect. Unfortunately, it is also true that nine men out of ten will wound more game than they will kill when using such light bullets. Even in the hands of a moderately expert hunter, there is a bad tendency to take chances on running shots, or shots at too great a distance. Light bullets lose their punch very rapidly at distances greater than 200 yards, a factor which enters into the too frequent”

“Big bullets, having sufficient power to tunnel a wide, deep wound through meat and bone, have several advantages. They deliver a knock-down punchwhich is generally sufficient to anchor the game immediately, and if they fail to kill on impact, the wound so produced will bleed freely. This makes the tracker's job much simpler than would be the case if a lighter, smaller bullet had been used. The writer's experiences with the .25 Rimless, .25-35 and -25'36 (Marlin) early convinced him that while such bullets will kill game as large as the black bear when properly placed . . . they are unsatisfactory in the hands of the novice. The lack of bullet-width prevents them from making wounds which produce a good blood-trail, they have not sufficient velocity to obtain the explosive effect of the .250-3000, .270 and similar "fast" loads. For the man who can pick his shots and is able to shoot with nail driving accuracy they will kill game . . . but even he will do much better work with a .32 Special, a .303 or a .35 Rimless.”

Other writers with a liking for the cartridge had similar observations. These include C. E. Hagie, Townsend Whelen, F. C. Ness, Maj. Charles Askins Sr., Dr. Henry Stebbins and a few others. I would like to hear from anyone with information on articles or books which mention the .25-35 cartridge in pre-1920 writings (other than Charlie Askins Outers book from 1912).

Did some more shooting with 25-35 AI EABCO M97. For comparison sake I checked the case capacity of 25-35 AI vs 250 Savage the 25-35 AI holds 43.3 gr of IMR4320 and the Savage holds 45.1 gr of IMR 4320. I have found that I can use anywhere from 2 grs less than max 250 Savage loads up to max listed 250 loads in the little bit I have worked with it so far. CCI 200 primers.

100GR Sierra MK
IMR4320 34 gr 2741 fps ES=81 group size = 1.9"
IMR4320 35 gr 2798 fps ES=102 group size = 1.8"
VARGET 33 gr 2693 fps ES=28 group size = .85"
VARGET 34 gr 2774 fps ES=55 group size = 1.2"
VARGET 35 gr 2831 fps ES=68 group size = 1.0" Max?

Nosler 85gr Ballistic Tip
VARGET 36 gr 2991 fps ES=45 group size = 1.3" Max?
IMR4895 33 gr 2752 fps ES=40 group size = .95 " No pressure

IMR 4320 has not performed well at all so far. I have only fired one or two groups with each so this is not statistically very significant, but it gives an idea of what improvement the AI version is capable of. I'll post more later - been silhouette shooting and going on vacation to west coast so it may be awhile before I get to really work with this one. I am expecting better accuracy out of the M97 rifle. As always start low and work up - my rifle is a falling block single shot and appears to have a long throat and may be able to be loaded hotter than what I would imagine some lever guns could be.

In getting ready to shoot some more data, we took the 300 pieces of brass we've been working with and trimmed them back to factory length 2.025" (quite a bit short of saami 2.043"), but this way if there are more split necks one can replace the split(s) with a fresh brass and not introduce varied lengths into the working brass collection.

Of note: in trimming we did find another split neck (or an incipient split, ie, not a split yet, but would be after the next firing) - but otherwise, the brass looks used, but not unhappy.

Also of note: the actual length from the box (at least our box) for new brass is 2.023" [winchester 1995 production] - in trimming the working collection: approx half hadn't stretched enough to get caught by the 2.025 trim length, ie, hadn't after 6 or 7 firings stretched 0.002" yet. Of those that "needed" trimming, most were 2.030 or less; maybe a half dozen were 2.032", ie, even the "worse" cases were only 7 or 9 thou overlength, ie, yes the unImproved chamber does allow for case stretching... but not that much. [will be interesting to see how much the Ackley chamber will negate this when we get to the improved chambering.]

We expect to finally get some wheels back early next week (a gallon of ATF on the ground at a stop light is generally a good indicator that one should be reaching deeply into their right rear pocket [a toyota 4runner no less]) - so hopefully we'll start with the next batch of data shortly thereafter.

Next bullet will either be 75gr Vmax's or 87gr speer TNT's.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

SMK: with the ackley chamber, how are you doing w/re case stretch? with the max loads?

Greg,
Working on the roof this morning. High winds this week have blown some shingles off.
We are high milage drivers, 30,000+ miles per yr. We try to change the xmsn fluid and filter every 60 to 80,000 miles. A new GM product will run between 225 and 250,000 miles without significant maintenance. Drove a Caprice 225,000 miles and never pulled the spark plugs. The car got better fuel milage when we sold it than when new.

Just measured some of my new .25-35 cases. Nine out of ten measure 2.023". One in ten measures 2.025".

Have you settled on the Ackley case for your Improved trials?

Will shoot the H322 100 grain loads in the yard this afternoon, if I dont fall off the roof first!

Well I got the Hodgdon Benchmark loads shot before the bugs ran me back into the house. The wind was blowing but on my sheltered bench they were “open for business!”

Using the 86 grain Remington JFN .25-20 bullet in Win. .25-35 brass with Win LR primers. At fifty yards.
21.0 grains gave 2009 fps.
23.0 grains gave 2235 fps.
25.0 grains gave 2460 fps.
27.0 grains gave 2656 fps
27.0 grains gave 2849 fps.

All extreme spreads were in the 30 fps range. Probably thanks more to the fore end stop that put the muzzle the same distance from the screens for each shot. Still having trouble with the last of these Winchester gold colored LR primers, many of them requiring a second strike to fire.
You cannot tell a lot at fifty yards but each group was about 0.6 to 0.75".

Switching to the 100 grain Remington spitzer (.250 Savage bullet) the shooting became more interesting. Again using Hodgdon Benchmark with Win. .25-35 Brass, Win LR primers. I loaded these out to just short of the rifling.

22.0 grains gave us 2083 fps with an E of 39 and SD of 20 fps.
23.0 grains gave us 2145 fps with an E of 21 and SD of 11 fps.
24.0 grains gave us 2270 fps with an E of 6 and SD of 3 fps.
25.0 grains gave us 2385 fps with an E of 8 and SD of 4 fps.

The 24.0 grain load really looks like a shooter to me. This load shot into one hole. All of the other groups were very small (considering the fifty yard distance I don’t want to get excited yet ).
The 25.0 grain load does not appear to be a maximum load. I measured three cases that had been previously fired and full length resized. The largest case measured 0.4119" at the pressure ring. After firing the pressure ring measured 0.4125" for 0.0006" expansion. The primer is just starting to show a good sharp corner where the firing pin struck. There were no extraction difficulties. I believe the 24.0 grain load is plenty for this rifle. I need to look a little closer at Benchmark.

William, sir,

In a previous post you had asked about the "new" 86gr 25-20 bullet... www.gmdr.com/levern/2520-86grDiffVers.jpg the one on the left is an example of a 1980's-mid90's bullet; the one on the left is the "new and improved" version (with the two crimp grooves)... and the one in the middle is what happens when a protobullet gets into a final swaging machine, backwards.

As you can see: the new bullet is quite different from the historic one - the old one was/is designed for a slow twist barrel, a la the 1:16 of a 25-20 [wide meplat, short radius ogive] The new one, the radius of the ogive is significantly greater (5s vs 3s??) and as such is more for a 1:12 barrel. [Which may be why is shot sooo much worse than the rest of the 25-35 data.] Actually it almost looks like they used a 87gr sptz final swaging die.

So: if one has a source of the old (good ones) - buy them up. If someone would share their souce, such would be appreciated [midwayusa is now selling the "new" ones] - we're looking for 2k bullets.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

Greg,
I have about 800 of the old bullets left.

I have a new camera but have not been able to make small enough pictures to post yet! This one will focus up very close.

If this new Remington bullet will not shoot for us we will sttle on the Speer 75 grain. The only drawback to that bullet is price! If Speer will make the 100 grain bullet I think I will settle on it for all of my jacketed bullet needs.

Watching Dr. Who in the Green Death, Drinking Irish Breakfast Tea and measuring brass. If it was not so muggy it would be a nice day!

Greg,

Looking over the Benchmark data this weekend. I graphed my loads over yours and was surprised to note the velocities from my 20” fast twist barrel were higher than those from your 22” slow twist barrel. There are not many differences in our loads that I can see other than the outside air temp was above 90 degrees when I was shooting. I am wondering if the combination of higher temperature and the resistance of the faster twist are the cause.
My 21.0-grain load was only 4 fps faster than yours. The 23.0-grain load increased to 37 fps faster. The 25.0-grain load was 59 fps faster and the 27.0-grain load was 26 fps faster. My screens were set up at 10 feet from the muzzle.
The difference could be due entirely to temperature. Looking back at .30-30AI data air temperature had a visible effect on velocity and visual pressure indications. This may not be a good comparison as the .30-30AI loads were running closer to maximum pressure than these 25-35 loads.

Greg, William, Dr. A,

Interesting thread. I do not own a .25-35, but perhaps, someday ...........

William,
In answer to some of your questions:

Does anyone have an example with the small primer?

I have a few examples. U.M.C. used small rifle primer pockets up until about 1910. W.R.A. CO. .25-35 cartridges used large rifle primer pockets but used a small rifle primer in a cup (#5 protected primer) until about 1920.

The loaded cartridge list has seven 117 grain cartridges for sale with one 87 grain load. Two of the 117 grain loads have boat tail bullets, some of the are Open Point Expanding (OPE) or hollow points. Does anyone have a .25-35 cartridge in their collection with a boat tail bullet? Does anyone have a .25-35 with a OPE bullet?

I am fortunate enough to have examples of these cartridges in my collection. Also have a few of the neat lead bulleted "short range" cartridges.

John Witzel has a nice collection of .25-35 cartridges. You can see examples of these at:

http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/2535/2535.htm

here's a UMC small primer cartridge
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/2535/25c_UMC_3_SP_FN_Sn_275_ss.jpg

here's a Western 100 gr. OPE
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/2535/25c_SX_1_OPE_276_ss.jpg

here's a W.R.A.Co. .25-35 with the #5 protected primer
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/2535/25c_WRACo_3_SP_FN_1_Sn_268.jpg

.25-35 Short Range:
http://www.armorypub.com/Witzel/2535/25c_WRACo_1__SR_FN_Pb_231.jpg

Sincerely,
John

John,
Thanks for the links! I should have remembered John Witzel’s pages as I have lusted after the WCF books for some time. I have spent quite a bit of time looking at his .30-30 pictures.

I have several protected primer .25-35’s in my collection. I interpreted Matterns comment about small primer pockets to mean the case had a small pocket.
Mattern seemed to feel the 100-grain bullet was a good compromise in the .25-35. The more I look at the cartridge I believe he had it about right. Ken Waters wrote along similar lines.
Dr. Mann used the .25-36 marlin for some of his tests, and it appears for chuck hunting also. My earliest Shooters Bible is a 1940 edition. There are a number of loads listed by various makers with various bullets. In my looking around it appears that by the early 1920’s the .25-35 and the .25 Remington were obsolete. There is very little writing about these two cartridges from then until now. F. C. Ness in his Practical Dope on the Big Bores speaks well of the .25 Remington. Ness mentions several other varmint hunters. Paul Estey and Townsend Whelen used the cartridge woodchuck hunting and they speak favorably of it in The Woodchuck Hunter. Short mention is made in the Angier-Whelen book Mr. Rifleman. Major Charles Askins Sr. wrote about the cartridge in his little 1912 Outters book, Rifles and Rifle Shooting. Kenneth Fuller Lee and Dr. Henry Stebbins had a few good words for the cartridges but they were obsolete by the time their books came out.
What I cannot locate is writing from the pre-1920 period that discusses the three cartridges in any detail. Capt. Paul Curtis, E. C. Crossman etc. were all writing about the .30-06 and the .270 in the 1920’s. Truesdell in his The Rifle and its Development for Big Game Hunting does not list the cartridge as having been used by any significant hunters. There must be contemporary writing about the cartridge and loading for it. The cartridge was popular or it would not have had so many varied loadings. I really messed up by not buying the bound reprints of the Arms and The Man that were available a few years ago. That was probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I get a great deal of pleasure from collecting, measuring and reading about cartridges. If you are a young person reading this thread – Start Your Cartridge Collection Now! Don’t be in a hurry, just keep collecting. It is amazing how your knowledge and interests grow and change as you collection grows. Keep your eye out for the basic books by Logan and Datig. Don’t be in a hurry. I have been collecting cartridges for over 40 of my 52years. My Father has a nice collection. Dad started collecting cartridges in the 1930’s. I have a pretty general collection, my goal was to get one of everything. My only area of specialization has been with the .38 Special, .25-20 and .32-20 cartridges. At the time I began collecting it was easy to get these with different head stamps and bullets. I have also collected old articles on these cartridges. I do not collect boxes, only individual cartridges. You don’t see the cartridge lists much anymore, it all seems to be Internet auctions, and I don’t get into bidding wars for cartridges. Fortunately, I have no idea how much money I have spent on cartridges over the years. James (?) Tillinghast was a great guy to help out low-tech collectors like me. He would always send an extra cartridge or two with my order.

I put the six 100 hrain bullets together.
I will take apicture of my protected primers and post that.
I have been looking for a bar prisim so I can take a picture of my cartridges and the headstamps at the same time. Anyone know where I can find one? They used to be common at every office supply store. I have been to all of them in my area and have looked at a dozen special order catalogs. No bar prisim in any of them. Any ideas?

Here are some of my .25-35 headstaps. I only have the one protected primer. I have several bullets stamped with a small W. The prisim would sure make it easier to takes this picture.

William,

I have spent a bit of time as well, looking over John Witzel's extensive .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 cartridge collection. Very interesting specimens! I have corresponded with John over the past 10 years or so exchanging historic information about this famous Winchester cartridge.

According to the copies of old Winchester catalogs and Shooters Bible's that I have, ammunition for the .25-35 has been factory loaded from it's inception in 1895, up to present day.

One of the interesting variations of the .25-35, is the Winchester "Superspeed" loading introduced in 1925. Winchester's catalog of that year shows this new cartridge using a 87gr. hollow point bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,700 f.p.s.

Winchester said "Eight of the popular sporting caliber cartridges, designed especially to meet the requirements of those shooters who desire a higher velocity, which, also, gives the flatest trajectory, are now made in this series of Winchester Superspeed smokeless cartridges. These cartridges have hollow point, non fouling bullets, and give maximum shocking power for their weight and size."

The other Superspeed cartridges were .25-20/ 60 gr., .25 Rem. auto/87 gr., .30 Win / .30 Rem - 110 gr., .32 W.C.F./80 gr., .32 Win Spec. / .32 Rem. auto. - 110 gr.

Sorry, that I don't have any books that would give you any insight for it's use prior to 1920. I do have copies of most of the Ideal Handbooks from the late 1800's until the 1950's. Unfortunately, there are no hunting stories in them, just technical data.

Fortunately, I do have Volumes I and II of the W.R.A. CO. Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations published by WCF Publications. If you need any information from them, please let me know.

You have been collecting cartridges about 30 years longer than I have. My focus has been primarily on the .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 and .44 W.C.F. / .44-40. At this point, I have most all of the variations that I am aware of. Along the way I have picked up a fair number of other lever action cartridges. Most of mine have come from Cartridge Collector Shows and a few individual collectors.

One neat series is the Winchester W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) series. I have at least one example of each from the .32 W.C.F. to the .50-110.

Catridge collecting definitely is fun and historic as well.

Sincerely,
John

John

"One of the interesting variations of the .25-35, is the Winchester "Superspeed" loading introduced in 1925. Winchester's catalog of that year shows this new cartridge using a 87gr. hollow point bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,700 f.p.s."

Considering the difference in barrel length this load can be duplicated quite safetly in my 20" barrel. John has some similar cartridge pictured on his site. I note they all have a deep case cannalure on the neck. It may well be as Mattern suggested that these short bullets have problems due to so little of the bullet being held by the neck. The COAL is important if we want them to feed from the magazine without difficulty.

I have a number of Super Speeds in my collection. I wil have to study them a little more.

"Fortunately, I do have Volumes I and II of the W.R.A. CO. Headstamped Cartridges and Their Variations published by WCF Publications. If you need any information from them, please let me know."

I think I may just have to buy Vol.1 to have a look. The book looks well worth the money.

"My focus has been primarily on the .30 W.C.F. / .30-30 and .44 W.C.F. / .44-40. At this point, I have most all of the variations that I am aware of."

I too have a number of .44-40's. I'll take a picture or two and start another thread. Do you have a .44 Game Getter?

"Most of mine have come from Cartridge Collector Shows and a few individual collectors."

No cartridge shows near us. I used to go down to San Antonio to the Convention Center Guns Show. They were very good shows and often had a serious cartidge collector selling there.
I have been to Wanamakers in Tulsa several times and bought a few cartridges there. Great show!


"Catridge collecting definitely is fun and historic as well."

Yes, Any shooter can learn a great deal about rifles and cartridges by reading about them. There is NOTHING truly new in cartridges or rifles. Just repackaged!

I forgot to mention. I down loaded all of the .25-35's and split them into folders buy manufacturers headstamps. By far the most interesting cartridges in the group are the 100 grain fn bullets and then the hollow points, actualy Open Point Expanding I would think, the very shallow hollow point. Then the Remington 117 grain half jacket bullet. The cannalures on the light bullets and the varying amounts of exposed lead tip on the 117 grain flat nose bullets reflect a different intended use I think. But I need to fond a little more contermporary writing!

William,

In looking at the WCF Publications book regarding the .25-35, it shows two different hollow point styles on the ink drawings. One is open across the complete lead portion of the nose of the bullet and abou 1 1/2 x's deep. The other is much less wide and deep with another cannelure about 1/8" forward of the case mouth.

The table indicates that the factory 87 gr.Superspeed cartridge was last listed in 1929. I wonder why(?). Many of the other Superspeed cartridges lasted until the mid 1940's.

The table also indicates that the #5 protected primer was replaced by the 24NF (Non fulminate) in 1925. Then beginning in 1929, the 115 Staynless primer was used.

"I too have a number of .44-40's. I'll take a picture or two and start another thread. Do you have a .44 Game Getter?"
Yes, fortunately, I have several. The rarest .44-40 that I have seen were the ones made by U.M.C. in the late 1800's.
They are headstamped ".44 C.F. Magic" and were mostly shipped to Australia. The Colt Lightning rifle was referred to as "Magic" by the Aussies and U.M.C. decided to incorporate it into the headstamp on a special run of cartridges. The singe specimen I saw sold for $200(!).

Sorry to hear that there are no cartridge collector shows near you. The one I attend is held 2x's / year about 2 hours away. Only 25 tables or so but there is usually lots of interesting stuff.

I have purchased a number of cartridges or cartridge lots from William A. Dibbern, 615 Morton Street, Stoughton, MA 02072. He runs several cartridge auctions a year. I haven't sent for any of his list's for a year or so, but the last one I rec'd had about 180 pages! Took awhile to go through that one!

John Scott in the Pittsburgh, PA is a big dealer in cartridges. I've purchased a number of cartridges from him. When I picked up a Marlin 1892 on .32 Colt last year, I gave John a call and asked if he had any U.M.C. headstamped cartridges. He replied, "How many do you want?". I ended up with 50 for about $.20 each. It's nice to have period correct cartridges for a vintage rifle.

I also was able to obtain a quantity of W.R.A. CO. .44 W.C.F. headstamped cartridges from John with the small primer pocket (pre 1929). I have dissected most of these, annealed the case necks and use them in my original '73 Winchester. The older 7 1/2 Remington primers are copper in color and are similar in appearance to the original WInchester #1 copper primers used in the .44 W.C.F. Using bullets made from an original Winchester .44 W.C.F. mold completes the cartridge. It sure is neat using the original cartridge casings in my '73 Winchester, just like its owner did in 1882.

John

John,

I think the answer as to why the Super Speed .25-35 is not listed after 1929 is due to the gunwriters all jumping on the .270/.30-06 cartridges with such enthusiasm. The few gun books I have from the 1920’s do not give much mention the lighter cartridges such as the .25-35, .30-30 and .32 Special. Cartridges such as the .32-40 and .38-55 are not mentioned at all. Ten years or so later we see these cartridges mentioned in books and magazine articles.

I will check with both Dibbbern and Scott and see if I can get their lists.

There is not a lot of writing on the Open Point Expanding and Mushroom bullets. Elmer Keith did two articles for the American Rifleman on hollow point hunting bullets. Generally speaking there are several different styles of hollow point. I have attached two poor pictures from E. C. Crossmans Book of the Springfield. Crossmans book has some of the best descriptions of factory bullets and loaded ammunition from the 1920’s and ‘30’s. Crossmans descriptions are far more detailed than Mattern, Keith and Curtis. Even Whelen did not give real detail on bullet construction in this time period.
I have seen examples of the extra cannalure on a bullet jacket as you describe. I suppose this was intended to slow or stop expansion at that point to assist in penetration.

John, William - an interesting conversation, especially to someone that's just coming up to speed on the 25-35 (and someone that's coming to wonder why the 25-35 disappeared given it's usefulness [probably obvious answer - with the bolt actions and the '06 and its wildcats: "who needs a levergun?"])

Anyway: let me throw some more data into the mix - got to the range yesterday and took 6 powders using speer's 87gr tnt-hp (will take the last 6 powders for that bullet friday or this weekend... then onto the 75 gr'ers). Given that the velocity as a function of powder weight graph is almost identical to the 86gr sp graph I have not made up a new one (when all the 25-35 data gets formally installed on our website - then there will be graphs for each bullet). The data .htm is at www.gmdr.com\levern\2535-87tnthp.htm Of note: Don't understand the 26gr BnchMrk load and its ugly stats (other than groupsize) - have looked at the brass, looking for a split neck or something... found nothing. May have to reshoot that datapoint to see if it's a honest ballistics phenonena (in looking at the chrono data: all 10 datapts are scattered, ie, we're not looking at a single out of line data point screwing up the stats... go figure).

We had commented previously that to our eye it looked like the groupsizes for the 86gr sp were being hobbled by the lack of bullet uniformity - as we had said: great bullet for the 1920's or 30's... but has become long in the tooth. The median group size for our 86gr data is ~ 1.8" (10 at 50y); for the 87 tnt (*) that dropped to 1.2"... will be interesting to see what happens when we get to choice bullets? Under 1" median groupsizes?

... now back to the shop to get ready for the next range trip.

do shoot straight,
greg
www.gmdr.com

(*) a seriously suboptimal choice given our 1:16 barrel [took the data to find the "knee" in the velocity/groupsize graph, ie, how slow can one fly the 87 and have it stabilize.]

There always has to be someone to ask the dumb questions (I guess it's my turn) : but, why "25-35", and not "25-30"? By necking a 30-30 down did somehow the "powder capacity" increase by 5 grains (of blackpowder)? Or was the name 25-30 already in use (???); or is the "35" an early example of "marketing"??, or is this a case of where the 2nd 30 in 30-30 represents 30 grains of an unspecified smokeless or semismokeless powder, and if it was labeled in the nominal manner (grs of FFg), would have been a 30-35, and hence the 25-35 makes sense?? or.... ?? Given the impressive knowledge level of the group...

Sorry, had to ask...

greg

Greg,

I am surprised by that 139 fps extreme spread with Hodgdon Benchmark. This is unusual in my experience, and I think it is unusual for your results also. Group size does not indicate anything out of the ordinary.
IMR 4064 demonstrated its typical dislike for bullets that are on the light side for the caliber. I have had better luck using the 117-grain bullets. The group sizes leave little room for complaint though!
I expected Alliant Reloader 10 to give you a little better showing. I have several different loads ready for my next session loaded with the 100-grain Remington bulk bullets. I am expecting good things from RL10 with the 100-grain bullet.
I do not shoot my smallest groups with RL7 and bottleneck cartridges. RL7 works fine and gives acceptable accuracy, but not the smallest groups nor the highest velocity for indicated pressure. Different story for straight wall cases.
The V.V. powders are a surprise here. Not optimum for the bullet weight?

What is the OAL of this bullet? I wonder if it will shoot a little better in the faster twist barrel?
I have shortened my 100 grain loads to a 2.770" COAL

Personally I want to play with the 25.5 grain Reloader 10 load and this bullet. The graph says this load should do better than your results indicate. The 25.5-grain load indicating 30% efficiency and the 27.0-grain load working out to 31% efficient. The .30-30 and the .30-30AI seem to deliver best accuracy at or above 30% efficiency for any given powder type. The straight wall cases also demonstrate this trait.

The 25.0-grain charge of Reloader 7 is 30% efficient and this load shot your smallest group, but did no give the lowest extreme spread.

This will all be very interesting to play with. The heat has slowed my shooting a little. I just saw your last post. I will do a little looking and we’ll see if my explanation matches every one else’s!

Greg,
Home a little late...
Logan says the Winchester catalogs of the mid and late (18) ‘90's state:
.25-35 Winchester smokeless loaded with the 117 grain bullet and Winchester No.5 primer and 35.0 grains of smokeless powder for a velocity of 1960 fps.
The Short Range smokeless load uses 35.0 grains of smokeless powder to propel the 86 grain bullet

Logan says the Winchester No. 5 primer was developed specifically for the .25-35 and .30 Winchester smokeless cartridges.

In Europe the .25-35 is known as the 6.5 X 52R mm and the DWM No. Is 519.

Townsend Whelen in his 1918 book, The American Rifle says: “ This is a very popular cartridge and deservedly so. It is extremely accurate, perhaps the most accurate of all our sporting cartridges.”

Whelen goes on to describe his Winchester Hi-Wall with 14-inch twist made up by A. O. Neidner. This rifle was made up with a tight chamber and throated for the 86 grain bullet. Whelen recounts his use of the 86 grain spitzer bullet ahead of 22.0 grains of du Pont Military Rifle Powder No. 20. Whelen says this load would shoot an average group of 1.77" at 100 yards. Whelen used a scope sight and said his sight setting was the same for 50 and 100 yards.
Whelen went on to say the 86 grain spitzer bullet would not stabilize in the 14" twist at 25-20 velocities and he had never been able to work out a successful reduced load for the rifle.

By 1940 Whelen wrote in his book: The Hunting Rifle, “This cartridge today would be regarded as of rather obsolete type were it not for two characteristics. Next to the .25-20 W. C. F. Cartridge, it is probably the most accurate cartridge in a lever action rifle, and it will probably excel the .25-20 in accuracy over 200 yards, and in windy weather.”

“It is not an excellent deer cartridge, but over a period of 40 years it has in the main killed deer quite neatly when the bullet is placed well into the chest cavity and the range is not too long.”

It’s late so more tomorrow. I believe Whelen, Sharpe, Mattern and Naramore all had comments on smokeless powder for early loading of the .25-35. My early copy of the Ideal Handbook also has powder information. I have several turn of the century ammunition catalog reprints from Europe that will shed some light on their loadings.

Greg,
A little more information
The Ideal Handbook No. 15 published after 1900 makes a reference similar to Logans about the Winchester No. 5 primer. Ideal says: “The No. 5 Winchester Improved Primer made especially for the .25-35 Winchester, .30-30 Winchester and .32 Winchester Special Smokeless Cartridges.”
The UMC No. 81/2 primer is listed as useful for the same cartridges.
Mattern describes the Winchester No. 5 primer as having an extra battery cup (protected primer). Mattern pictures this primer with protected cup and W stamped on its face. I was under the impression the W stamped on these early primers indicated the primer could be used for both black and smokeless powders.

The Ideal Handbook has a chapter: “Popularity of the .25 Calibre.”
“There has worked into the good grace of the smallbore crank no cartridge equal to the .25 calibre.”

“One would think the above four .25 calibre cartridges (.25-20 SS, .25-20 Marlin and Winchester, .25-25 Stevens, and .25-21-86 Stevens) would stop the crank on that calibre, but he never tires and it was his increasing labor that compelled the manufacturer of still more powerful cartridges, .25-35 Winchester and .25-35 Marlin.”

In the chapter: “Smokeless Powders.”
“The .25-35 Winchester has one turn in 10 inches while the .25-36 Marlin has one in 12 inches.” The slower twist is preferred by many for use of black or lower velocity smokeless powder and cast bullets.”

The above is interesting as later in the twist tables the Ideal Handbook lists the .25-35 Winchester twist as one in 8 inches with the .25-36 Marlin as having a one in 11 inch twist.

In two places in the Ideal Handbook there is special mention of the fact that the .25 caliber barrels have remained a constant diameter which has helped to standardize bullets for that caliber.

Du Pont Powder Company listed short range loads with their No. 1 powder as:
.25-36 Marlin 12.0 gr using the 86 grain bullet.
.25-35 Winchester 11.0 gr using the 86 grain bullet.

For High Power loads using the 117 grain bullet:
For both the .25-36 Marlin and the .25-35 Winchester a load of 21.0 grains of .30 Calibre Annular Smokeless Rifle Powder.

Laughlin and Rand Powder Company list loads of:
For “Full Service loads used with metal cased bullets”:
For both the .25-36 Marlin .25-35 Winchester a load of 19.0 gr of Lightning is listed.

5.0 grains of Sharpshooter in listed for both cartridges using lead bullets. “Sharpshooter for miniature loads for all high power rifles with lead bullets which should not be softer than 1 in 10.”

Phil Sharpe in his Handloading book mentions the .25-36 Marlin was designed by William V. Lowe and named the .25/37. Marlin adopted it in 1897 as the .25-36. Winchester followed shortly thereafter with the .25-35. Sharpe lists no loads for the .25-35 using the 117 grain bullet using 35.0 grains of any powder. I have not yet found old .25-35 Winchester load data calling for 35.0 grains of any powder with the 117 grain bullet. I admit I have not look through Gregs data base in RCBS load yet!

Harvey Donaldson has a lot to say about .25 Caliber cartridges in his writing but not a lot of specifics on the .25-35 Winchester. Dr. Mann used the .25-36 Marlin and the .25 Krag for his experimenting. I believe he chose the .25-36 Marlin for its slower twist. Dr. Mann was a chuck hunter.