I would like some opinions on the subject, as I have heard two schools of thought:

1) Super-clean the bore before the range, fire a few foulers and have at it all day long;

2) Super-clean the bore before the range, fire a few foulers and swab once with a hoppes patch and dry patch in between each differently charged 5-shot group.

I haven't decided which way to approach this yet.

Thank you
EMC2

I normally clean after the charge groups (5-10 rounds) when I'm testing loads. I don't know how much of a difference it makes in my case, it's just something I've gotten used to.

Depending on the condition of the barrel (whether it had been properly broke in) the type of projectile used, etc. accuracy will begin to be affected at some point; I've heard that some begin to see this after just 20-30 rounds.

I guess the biggest question here is what do you plan to use the loads you are developing for. Hunting or a shooting competition? Hunting loads are probably not as critical as far as accuracy goes, but you want have the terminal energy to cleanly kill whatever you're aiming at (I'm not concerned if at 200 yards the bullet went 2" to the left of where I was aiming for lung shot).

Of course if your shooting competition, you will want to get the best results out of the loads so they can be evaluated.Cleaning between will bear this out. Normally as you approach a certain charge the groups will get tighter, and then begin to spread out. So I think it's better to clean so the results aren't biased. Also, it only takes a few seconds. Beats scrubbing endlessly to get all the crap out after you've fired a few hundred rounds...

Just my two cents worth...

Also a quick cleaning between groups will give your barrel a little extra time to cool, or at least give you something to do. I know i always find it hard to wait while the barrel cools.

While developing a load, I simply run a cotton patch through the barrel after each five shot string. It's more to clean the powder debri out than anything. I save that patch and compare it with the patches from the other shot strings. Often, the cleaner the better!

When I shoot a group I shoot a consistant two minutes between shots and fifteen minutes between strings.

My approach is a little different -

Starting with a pristine clean bore, a couple of rounds from a previously determined not desired loading are fired as foulers.

Then, one round from group A, one round from group B, another from group C, and so forth until one round from each representative group has been fired - allowing a bit of time between each round by manually recording the velocities and POI's on a note pad, along with visual pressure signs. A bare hand is used to determine barrel heat and length of time between stages. Usually bring enough rifles along to set the test rifle aside and let cool after all the first shots have been fired from the representative groups (usually have 4 to 5 groups).

Then, will again fire the second shot from each group in succession. This goes on until all the groups of 5 rounds in each group has been fired. This means each group has been exposed to the approximate amount of fouling and barrel heat as the next one. Don't clean between groups. Most rifles will continue accurately with 20 - 30 rounds (some won't even begin to stabilize until a dozen or so rounds have been fired), so don't worry about decaying accuracy due to fouling. Normally don't test more than five or six 5 round groups, anyway.

kdub...

I like your method.

I don't clean the guns before heading to the range, I clean them when I get home before I put them in the safe ;) When I get to the range, I'll shoot a couple of known good rounts to check POI before I start checking the work up sets. I run a "bore snake" through the barrel between groups. They are quick and easy to use. I tend to take 3 rifles with me and rotate them between groups to allow pleanty of cooling time. If I'm only checking a rifle or two, the "extra" will be my 10/22 :)

If I'm doing load development I start with a very clean barrel flushed with Gun Scrubber (I think it's CarbonTet) and I'm finding that if the barrel is cold, clean, and dry (NO residual oil or solvents) the first group will most often be my best group of the day.

I too run a Bore Snake down the barrel 3 times between different loads. I'm not so fussy that I use different snakes but cleaning between different loads does make a difference.

On the next subsequent range outting I will first try and duplicate where I left off the time before. That helps me to validate what I did earlier was done correctly.

I'm in the process of working up some loads for my 25-06. I have one very good load using a Speer 87 grain TNT bullet over 62 grains of Retumbo with a CCI 200 primer that is my "calibration" load. I have a master cartridge (bullet seated in the case and crimped but no primer or powder) that I use to adjust the seat die for this combination of components. I will shoot 3 of these at the beginning of a new load development session just to verify everything is OK from the start.

Most recently I have been trying some 100 grain Match King bullets over the same kind of powder playing with charge and seating depth. No luck so far. I was also trying some AA MR3100 powder and some H 4831 powder with both types of bullets. You have to be careful not to introduce too many variables at one time. I have determined my Ruger #1V does not like the Match King bullets regardles of powder type, charge, or seating depth. I get good results with the same powders with the Speer TNT bullet but Retumbo has surfaced as the clear front runner powder. The Match King bullet has a very different ogive than the Speer TNT bullet. I have ordered some 100 grain Speer Spitzers with a very similar ogive. I'm thinking this will work better than the Match Kings.

Just be consistent and pay attention to detail.

I test new loads with 50 rounds (10 5-shot groups). After each load tested (50 rounds) I clean the barrel with three swipes of a bore snake. --Mykal

EMC2 since you asked and the topic is one that probably interests all of us why not do some testing using each of the methods and then give us a report on which works best, worst, or if there is any difference at all. Since we are heading into the summer months I may have to give it a try myself.

I think I may try kdub's method - makes sense to me.

Thank you gents for all your input.

Yes, I do agree that it is all usage dependant. For my hunting rounds, I do need to clean between shot strings, and have a cool barrel, as I doubt the game would allow a few foulers and a warm-up group before presenting a shot to the vitals ;) So I'll try to reproduce the "Just out of the safe and into the woods" condition as best I can.

I only have loaded for one target gun (.308 bolt action) and I still need to learn how to re-size once fired brass from my M1-A and AR-15. The last time I tried to FL resize brass from my M1-A, I nearly ripped the press out of the lag bolts on my bench:eek:

However, the bull barrel .308 seems to prefer warm and dirty, for at least 50 rounds before accuracy drop off.

Thanks again
EMC2

PS, Yes, If I do discover anything interesting, I will post it, but developing a complete test and reporting results would just take time that I really don't have yet.:)

After finding the "sweet spot" load combination for my hunting rifles, the bore is cleaned to pristine condition. Prior to a hunting trip, five to ten rounds are fired to assure proper POI, then left fouled for the remainder of the time until the hunt is over. This gives me the fouled, but cold, barrel for best accuracy.

The M1A and AR15 do require careful attention to resizing because of their semi-auto actions. Small base dies are usually recommended, but as you say, resizing can be a chore with these dies. Imperial Sizing Die Wax is a terrific lubricant for this purpose.

Also, might try backing off the sizing die a bit in the press to not completely resize. Experiment some to find what your chambers will accept short of FL sizing - may find that a partial resize will work.

That's a capital idea. I always get nightmares about putting away a dirty rifle, but I guess for the short amount of time it needs to be 'hunt ready', I can get over it.

Do they sell special dies for the mil spec chambers? I was really shocked at the brass expansion.

Also, has anyone tried this electronic bore cleaner?

Tech notes on this forum shows how to make one, I think.

I guess I'm the odd ball of the bunch. I dont clean my rifles, maby once or twice a year. When cartridges were corrosive you needed to clean a rifle each time it was shot. Not any more. I have found that accuracy drops off after I clean a rifle and it usually takes quite a few rounds to get it back. I may run a dry patch down them every now and then just to see what it looks like. I shoot a lot and clean very little. The accuracy of the rifles speaks for it self.

Okay so I went to the range. THe results were mixed, but trying to keep with the request to explain a methodology, I decided to clean in between each 5 shot string for the following reason:

If the fouling is compounded with each 5 shot group, how could I be sure that it was the load that made the acuracy, and not the fouled barrel? Normally, the accuracy of my rifles gets slightly better as I increase the amount of shots through it, up to a point. Well, if I have a different charge in each 5 loads, then I will be operating with 2 variables, not one.

Anyway, I was astounded at how much the difference of 1 grain of powder made. In my Browning A-Bolt Medalian .300 WSM, The difference between 61.5 gr of IMR 4350 and 62.5gr was literally 3 MOA.

I'll never buy a box of factory ammo again:D

The joys of handloading! :)

One of the things I have found a lot is that the group size may be tight, open up then tighten up again, or be just the reverse. All this can happen in the one to two grain area. It pays to work up a load.

Seems to me somebody does make "smaller" dies made for semi auto rifles. I think I saw them in Midway's catalog.
A sfor cleanig? I don't think you can over do it. When I go gopher hunting I take my 2 big 22's and my cleaning kit. After about 20-30 rounds they tend to get hot and dirty so I clean them just like I was going to put them to bed, let them cool off and have at it again.
My 788 in.223 has hadover 8000 rounds put throughit and it still shoots better than I can hold it.