Hello again,

Don't mean to annoy ya's but
I have a few questions to ask you more experienced shooters. forgive me I'm a greenhorn. Was thinking of putting together a Jaeger with a 32 inch 1 in 28 inch twist barrel. I noticed (while lookin' through the cabela's catalog), that most inlines are like 26 to 29 inches in barrel length. I don't know why ths is so. It may just be a fad for all I know. My question is this..
Is a 32 inch barrel realistic for saboted bulets? I discovered the green mountain barrel in.50 caliber 1"x32". I'm thinking "yea now I'm set!", but I'm unsure about the length. Should I cut and crown it shorter or should I leave it be?
I'm wanting to shoot conicals and sabots and since the barrel is in .50 cal. ,I'll have much more options to choose from to find perfection. I've read alot but have little experience. can someone help me here?? ....Please. This project will cost me about $700 and I want to get it right. Also I wonder about how to secure the barrel. Should I use keys or screws thru the ramrod guides like on my pedersoli? I don't want to pin it because that is pretty much a permanent thing right? I want to clean my rifle to preserve it. Keys, pins, or screws ....which is best?

Thanks

IIRC, you want a fast twist flinter? Why not try a Lyman Great Plains Hunter for half the money first and see how it works for you.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/rifles.htm

Bye
Jack

Think you know this...but will state it anyway. Lenght of the barrel has nothing to do with the spin of the bullet/ball. It's just longer....just like a long bolt vs. a short bolt...the nut is going to spin the same RPM's.

Think the short barreled In-lines are just for ease of carry. BP rifles do show some gains with long-long barrels...not a whole lot, but somthing.

Have been some sabot's that show melting/ersosion from the mega-powder charges some in-lines use...and I'd guess a longer barrel time would increase that effect. Some sabots have been re-configured to protect from this melting/erosion...so it will pay to try different versions.

Looking over the 2nd edition Lyman BO handbook, some of the in-line loads are generating pressures in the middle 30K range...they are made for it, don't try those loads in guns not recommended for them.

Would use two wedge pins, as on the originals...set up correctly and evenly, they'll take the force of recoil and still let you easily remove the barrel (assuming a hooked breech) for cleaning.

Really...the Lyman fast twist is a pretty good deal in today's market...authentic enough to please traditionalist with the faster twist bullet-shooters need.

Thanks,

I was not thinking of using megaloads anyway. I just wondered if a longer barrel would create more pressure with a fast twist is all. I had been thinking about buying dixie gunwork's Jaeger (pedersoli). I went off on a tangent thinking i could go one step further and make one.
I read in dixie's site a comment about the product from a customer. Stating ,"shot thru the same hole at 50 yards, 1-1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with the iron sights"
I realize this might just be an advertising ploy.... lol.
When i looked at the pedersoli catalog i noticed that there was no specifications about target shhoting/big game/reeenacting etc. yet there was for the model with a tang sight. A tang sight on a jaeger? Wondered why.
I did my homework and I agree that a Great Plain Hunter model would fit my need. I been interest in this gun kit since I was a kid. Looked good to me back then.. not expensive but seems to be of high quality. I believe I read somewhere these guns are italian made like pedersoli firearms. May be mistaken
here.
I'm just not that crazy about Hawken style rifles. Thanks again for the input. Guess if i do build a gun i will use barrel keys

Rich

Hey,

Don't mean to flood the board with nonsense here. I remember the feed back comment about the (dixie) pedersoli jaeger now. the load mentioned was 348 grain conical .....I assume this was a powerbelt bullet..... with 80 grains of goex fff by the way.
I've read negative things about the powerbelt but also good things.
I've also read negative thing about the GPH rifle somewere in a forum from one gentleman.
one more question here......
I wont blow myself up if i try shooting a .36 caliber sabot with a .32 cal (312 Dia) 71 grain auto pistol bullet..... in my .36 cal (39 inch 1 in 48 twist) barrel (cabela's blue ridge) pedersoli frontier rifle........will I???

lol.... i know "try it and see dude ". hehe

I saw in the new cabelas catalog that they now have a kit for a .50 caliber frontier for $300= dollas. kinda makes me mad since I paid about $500 several years ago for the assembled gun. Can't say this rifle is historically correct and like i stated before i cant hit my barn with it but,that's might just be me.
i wonder how cabela's can afford to send new catalogs every six weeks. Heck it's been 8 years since I ordered from them. never much in there now as far as blackpowder rifles but lots of cap and ball pistols.


Rich

Flinter,
Looks like a couple of your posts doubled, so I removed the duplicates.

80 grains of Goex triple f? Are you sure that isn't double f or single?

Sorry

I did mean ffg not fffg. My mistake . My hands aew damaged from pneumatic tools Make alot of typos.

edit ne as you see fit ok.....

Flinter, I've been doing the front stuffer rock lock thing for quite some time and also did a lot of research on Jaegers too.

First, are you sure you want to use sabots and or conicals? I almost fell into this hype myself until I found I could get 2" or less groups @ 100 yds with PRB's in my .50 with the right loading.

The slower the rifling twist the more powder you could put to a PRB to increase velocity w/o getting the RPM's too high and loosing accuracy.

I tried conicals in my .50 and got very good accuracy to 65 yds but it fell off considerably from there on out. I did some wound channel testing too and I was not at all impressed with what I saw. Even driving these fast with a 120gr charge of 2F, there was little to no expansion and the wound channel was half that of the PRB. Pentration was deeper but it can only be likened to shooting FMJ's. Another disturbing thing was when these contact a rib (5/16" wooden dowel for test) they readily change their direction considerably, one turned about 75 degrees. I tried several different brands of sabots with all lead and jacketed bullets, cast conicals and power belts. The only one that produced a worthy wound channel was the "Lee Modern Mini" that looks like a wad cutter, perfromance of these was admirable. None of the others produced any kind of consistent results.

I've come to the conclusion that if you already have a .50 and want to hunt bigger game, they you should look at working a load for the Lee modern mini. If you are looking to buy new, then there is no reason not to go for a .62 and especially in a Jaeger. 325gr PRB going down a slow twist of 1:66 to 1:104 with a healthy charge behind it will out do any smaller bore conical.

As for your barrel length, you can pretty much go with whatever your heart desires on a Jaeger. Most stay in the 24-29" length but some originals from Germany had longers barrels upwards of 34"

BTW, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just trying to make sure you get what you want and not what you think you want based on sales hype.

One more thing, if you're looking for an awesome custom barrel, give Long Hammock a call at 352.748.7373

Thanks,

Now I have changed my mind again. I've changed my mind so many times its not funny. My original Idea was to build a rifle with a Long Hammock .54 caliber barrel 42" long a chambers lock, and a wolfgang haga strong roman nose stock. It would cost near the same maybe cheaper than the other ideas I had.
The only problem would be having to order parts from several places.
I've got it covered tho. Reading rifle would look good on my wall too.

Don't fear getting parts from several places, just adds to the fun of the whole thing. Just be sure and get what you want even if it costs a little more, settling for something you're not particularly happy with won't do you any good.

I'm going to be building a Jeager myself with a longer barrel. .62 cal with a twist of 1:104" and 32"-36" length (depends on the feel of it). Lock is going to be a Chambers Germanic. Making my own stock for it but I've not chosen what wood yet. Most Jeagers were made with local wood be they here or in Germany but while doing research on the Jeager design, I've come to find out the Germans used wood from all over the world which opened up a can of decision worms for me. I like a heavy dense wood stock, something that is strong but also has some weight to it. Getting more weight on the butt end helps me get a better balance in the rifle and the additional weight will help quell some of the recoil. I had originally thought of using hornbeam (ironwood) which is super strong & heavy but is very plain. I've found Jeager stocked with everything from maple to teak to some kind of spiny something from China (bright red colored wood, kinda pretty but didn't turn me on for a rifle stock) even found one done in mahogony. Good thing is I don't have time to work on the rifle for a while so I can keep looking!

i had a German mauser once that was stocked in mahogany. That was one heavy rifle. I was thinking about how i used to use persimmon wood to make stakes when i trapped years ago. Its really dense and wouldnt splinter when i hammered the stakes in frozen ground. I have no idea what a stock of persimmon would look like but its heavy and real tough. Theres persimmon planted all back on my property but they arent even old enough to bear fruit yet. There is a nice old tree along the roadside near here. Its pretty common around here.

I talked to a lot of people over the last 18 months since I got bitten by the Jeager bug. Every one of them said the old world imigrant German gunsmiths used whatever they could get for stocks. I did find accounts & examples originals stocked in just about every wood imaginable; white oak, birch, beech, maple, white ash, alder, walnut, yellow pine, chesnut, ect... Without a doubt, the prettiest two had to be the ones I found on a German museum web site (sorry, lost the link in the last system crash) that were done in super curly cherry and a fine piece of african fruitwood with both curl and stripes. Interesting thing is both of these sported rather long barrels, one being a 33" long .62 cal. and the other 36" long I think .58 cal. (memory failing).

I also noted that most did not have much for inlays but emphasis seemed to be more on caving of the wood and graving of the metal. Inlays are usually limited to a coat of arms or other identification. The other interesting things I noted on those made in Germany are:

The placement of the sights, the rear sight is located much closer to the lock than what is normally seen on original domestic made rifles. Perhaps a photographic trick on the eyes but they really appear much closer to the lock.

Many have brass/bronze ram rods rather than wood.

Butts are wider and have less drop than most domestic repo's I've seen. Could not tell how much if any cast-off from the pics but it does not look like much.

It seems to me that there has been a cross-over between domestic long rifle design and the original Jeager design here in the US. It also seems that barrels generally got shorter here too.

I'd really love to investigate this in depth since most of what I've found has produced more questions than answers for me.

I talked to a lot of people over the last 18 months since I got bitten by the Jeager bug. Every one of them said the old world imigrant German gunsmiths used whatever they could get for stocks. I did find accounts & examples originals stocked in just about every wood imaginable; white oak, birch, beech, maple, white ash, alder, walnut, yellow pine, chesnut, ect... Without a doubt, the prettiest two had to be the ones I found on a German museum web site (sorry, lost the link in the last system crash) that were done in super curly cherry and a fine piece of african fruitwood with both curl and stripes. Interesting thing is both of these sported rather long barrels, one being a 33" long .62 cal. and the other 36" long I think .58 cal. (memory failing).

I also noted that most did not have much for inlays but emphasis seemed to be more on caving of the wood and graving of the metal. Inlays are usually limited to a coat of arms or other identification. The other interesting things I noted on those made in Germany are:

The placement of the sights, the rear sight is located much closer to the lock than what is normally seen on original domestic made rifles. Perhaps a photographic trick on the eyes but they really appear much closer to the lock.

Many have brass/bronze ram rods rather than wood.

Butts are wider and have less drop than most domestic repo's I've seen. Could not tell how much if any cast-off from the pics but it does not look like much.

It seems to me that there has been a cross-over between domestic long rifle design and the original Jeager design here in the US. It also seems that barrels generally got shorter here too.

I'd really love to investigate this in depth since most of what I've found has produced more questions than answers for me.


Have onely seen a couple of originals, but those two did have a metal ram rod and barrels of the 30-34" length (incomparsion to colonial arms of the day, that would be claased as "short"). Believe teh metal ram-rod comes from the old Eruopean custom of not using a patched ball, but using a tight fitted ball...one that really needs to be rammed hard to get down the bore.

Both were "aggrressivly" rifled by US standards...big tall lands and deep groves at the muzzle (didn't OWN them, couldn't de-breech them to take a look, so can't speak of the rifling or bore diameter at the breech).

Stocks wee fuller than US rifles...not as thick as Muskets, but no where near as thin as the colonial longrifle, Brass was minimal, but wood carving seemed to replace color as the decoration.

Boith were in goiod enough shap to be shot, but worn over time...one showed some silver inlays (mostly out-line type thin lines) but the onwer suspected it was added AFTER the gun was built.

that about sums up my first hand knowledge.

I found a link about Hessian Jaegers and a couple about wood.
I read somewhere before that some Jaegers had folding leaf sights. Here it states there's an extra leaf.



http://home.ica.net/~claus/Jrifle.htm

http://green-alan.tripod.com/TimbersAtoM.htm

http://www.thecrossbowmansden.com/woods.html

http://www.americanlongrifles.com/WorkShop_frame.htm

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/

http://www.three-peaks.net/

http://www.prbullet.com/

http://www.flaminharry.com/amrifleschools.html

http://possibleshop.com/hammock.htm

http://home1.gte.net/tmmh/firstgun.htm

http://www.sarcoinc.com/guns22.html

http://www.northwestloading.com/

http://www.mmpsabots.com/index.html

http://www.airbum.com/NeatShtpix/HainesPart3.html

http://www.ozonemountain.com/catalog1.htm

http://www.seldas-rudel.at/Herrchen/Longrifles/

http://www.ricebarrels.com/chart.html

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/jaeger.shtml

http://www.airbum.com/NeatShtpix/LongRifle.html

http://www.firelocks.com/page44.html

http://www.parkerfirearms.com/marshall.html

http://riflestocks.tripod.com/50cal1.html


http://www.shootersolutions.com/mol12ozkit.html

May be of use to someone.

OK,

now it seems I'm obsesssed with building a Wolfgang Haga rifle. I have resisted the urge to order the parts since I may change my mind again. I found the buttplate, heavy sideplate, toeplate, patchbox, and precarved stock (which is slightly oversized so I can do some carving). I've always liked the looks of those roman nose stocks and I figure the extra weight wouldnt hurt because I'd like to go .52 or .54 caliber... plus It might put the center of gravity closer from the muzzle a bit; if I decide to go with a straight octagon barrel that is.
I guess I should go to the library and find reference photos and reading material about these rifles because I dont know how long the barrel should be. The custom jobs I've seen for sale online all had 42' barrels in .50 caliber. I'll post these later for reference in case anyone wants to take a look. That is if it's not against the rules here.
Found a place that sells Long Hammock barrels but only straight octagon. I understand that straight octagon barrels are correct only after 1800 or so. I want a swamped barrel but not from Colraine or Green Mountain. Found another place that sells swamped long hammock barrels but only up to "C" weight.
This type of rifle is normally wearing a heavier barrel so its ideal for my purposes. Cant find anyplace selling Rice barrels or Getz barrels alone instead as part of a kit. I thoght maybe a 15/16 42" in .52 might work. I dont want the thing weighing like 13 pounds.
Thought about a 1'x42'.54 but I'd rather have a swamped barrel if at all possible...... complications!
Not certain about the lock but it seems a Chambers "Early Germanic" might be a good choice.This is the only thing that bothers me. I dont know whether it sould have a single or double set trigger. I initially read somewhere that the trigger in the Track Of The Woods catalog (tr-dst- 6) was excellent. This made by L. E. Davis. I'm not sure it would fit into the triggergaurds attributed to wolfgang haga i found there. I'll post these later too if its ok. I just dont want to get into a mess with a triggerguard that either wont fit the trigger or
a trigger that wont work well with the lock.
Dang! I'm running out of space here. Not certain about which if any nosecap is right as well. I just wanted everything to go smoothly when and if I put this together. Would like the rifle to be correct as possible. historically and functionally. I also want it to be very accurate.
Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. Any advise would be accepted. Now I'll find those links for reference.

Thanks

The links I was reffering to....\

custom jobs for reference


http://allenmartinrifles.com/html/berks.html

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976308535.htm

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAA-797

the trigger i read as being excellent somewhere online

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=156&styleId=706&partNum=TR-DST-6

double set triggers

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partList.aspx?catID=14&subID=156&styleID=706

single set triggers

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partList.aspx?catID=14&subID=156&styleID=708

The trigger guards I was looking at

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partList.aspx?catID=14&subID=155&styleID=1042

I now know that the correct way is to pin the underlugs instead of using wedge keys but I dont see why one couldnt put a wedge key through a inlay such as a star. Unless it would be not as stable. I did find the type of tennon that goes through a hole in the thimble and is attached by a screw like on CVA firearms or my Pedersoli. I would go with pins in this case even though i would worry about fouling or liquid getting under the barrel.
I guess it would be just as easy to remove the ventplug when i clean the barrel, but then the threads might get worn and the ventplug becoming a projectile.


too much time on my hands

HAve a couple of guns with pinned barrels...you really don't take them out of the stock to clean them very often. Helps a whole bunch if (1) the wood to metal fit is tight (2) the inletting of the fore end is well sealed (3) the metal is portected by an anti rust agent (they sell varios ugly gunk sprays in marine supply houses that may NEVER give up, but it's too ugly a coating for use on the visible areas).

Can seal the "seams" (metal wood contact points) with plain Johnson's Past floor wax and leave it there during a hunt...cleans right up after the hunt, but does a pretty good job of protecting the area.


Your gun...if you want to use keys, go right ahead....if you want to use screw mounting you could hide it under the ram rod and put fake pins in for the "purist".

I take the berrel out of my pedersoli frontier and clean it wih soap in a bucket. It has the screw in underlugs. The area I am concerned about is around the flashpan. The barrel has pits just under the wood. Anyway I decided to
pin the barrel of my project solid. Maybe bed the stock at the breech and muzzle first. I'd have to take that in consideration when i drill out the vent of course.
My dog chewed the heck out of the bottom of the butt and the muzzle area of the stock on the pedersoli. I went to the sporting goods store and got some brownells bedding compound and repaired it years ago.
I thought maybe a freefloating barrel might be the way to go but im not sure. I dont know if that would do any good with a heavy barrel. Can see the practibility of a nosecap and toeplate now......
Bad Dog!!

Don't free float.

Long barrel..long fore end...without the support of a fully beded barrel, are asking that skinny thin sided fore end to crack at the first chance. Evee when unpinning a long rifle, be extra carefull with that empty stock. Full contact bedding for long stock life on a thin long fore end.

Besides, a free flated barrel puts all the force of holding the barrl up on the action...and muzzle loaders (at least traditional ones) don't have an action.

HAve seen a some old guns (some well over 200 years) taken down possibly for the first time in a life time. External metal may have been free from pits, but the stuff hidden under the wood usually has a few pits. The ones that didn't had some kind of protective coating...looked a lot like varnish, what it started out as I have no idea...could have been varnish for that matter; if the metal is dry and sealed from air, it won't rust.

Usually they get a line of pits right were the barrel contacts the fore end...makes that 90degree angle that a rag won't get down into and the sweat of a hand will.

Hello again,

Don't mean to annoy ya's but
I have a few questions to ask you more experienced shooters. forgive me I'm a greenhorn. Was thinking of putting together a Jaeger with a 32 inch 1 in 28 inch twist barrel. I noticed (while lookin' through the cabela's catalog), that most inlines are like 26 to 29 inches in barrel length. I don't know why ths is so. It may just be a fad for all I know. My question is this..
Is a 32 inch barrel realistic for saboted bulets? I discovered the green mountain barrel in.50 caliber 1"x32". I'm thinking "yea now I'm set!", but I'm unsure about the length. Should I cut and crown it shorter or should I leave it be?

Thanks

Here is my summary of 25 years of smoke pole fun,

shooting modern 22" high twist through older 32" low twist smoke polls. I have one that is a medium roll 28" Hawken (1/48) that does fine with patched balls and really super with moderate (395gr) lead conicals. This is the only one I have worked with that will do several loads acceptably well. The other rifles like their own recipe, to the distain of all others. Only one rifle I tried never found it's pleasure, made in China - shoud'a known. Another is still looking, an Omega with the Thompson barrel- go figure. Theoretically, it's 28" high twist SS barrel is a happy median for hunting and for accuracy with sabbots or conicals. I find it no more accurate than a 22" CVA in-line, so far.

In my experience, the lightest accurate rifle, easy to carry and hunt with is my 24" Traditions SS Lightning in-line (1/32), which loves 295 gr Powerbelts. If you are a hunter, 24" to 28" is the range of barrel lengths to consider. If you are a traditionalist or target shooter, my 28" Hawken will print clover leaf patterns at 50 and 100 yards using 395gr maxiball conicals. I have not found the 32" rifles (1/66) to be more accurate than the Hawken unless both are firing patched balls.

So far, I have not found the magnums to give any advantage. Yes, they can shoot harder and farther - but the Deer don't seem to care if you miss them at 2100 fps.