Hello folks...new to this forum and will be new to reloading.

I'm trying to decide whether to purchase a .444 Marlin or a .45-70 Gov't Marlin lever gun. Part of my decision will be based on availibility /cost of relaoding supplies...so I am interested to hear your opinions. Both calibers seem to be fairly comparable ballistically. I also have questions about reloading in general. I have a book on order, but thought this forum might provide some good info while I wait for it to arrive.

It seems there is not a shortage of supplies/loads for the .45-70 ... what about the .444?

Does anyone know who supplies brass for the .444?

What are the pros/cons of shooting jacketed bullets vs. cast bullets? Does one foul the barrel more than the other? Is there a difference in wear on the barrel?

I have seen multiple sizes of bullets for the .45-70, from 300 - 500 gr...what about the .444? I have seen 240 and 265 gr only?...any other sizes? and if so, who supplies them?

Is there a significant difference in cost for these two calibers?...reloading, that is.

Thanks for any responses.

- Gringo_loco

Dig into the Tech Notes and see Marshall's .444 articles. They'll open your eyes.....

If you're handloading, both will work just fine. Up to you to decide how much recoil you can stand :D That's about it, in a nutshell.

Thanks MikeG ... found the tech articles, and looks like I have something to chew on for a bit. I see there are three articles with a fourth in the works I take it.

For that matter, having looked through some of the threads now, I feel somewhat foolish, as I can see that some of my questions have previously arisen and been answered.

In particular, disregard the nickel vs. brass casing question everyone.

gringo_loco

Welcome Gringo, glad to see another Texan on the site... especially another Texan interested in the 444. Don't see many 444s in my part of Texas but you do see a few 45-70s.

Basically, I think you will do well with either rifle. There are not many choices of factory bullets for the 444. I think the original Remington 240-grain SP would be the better offering for our Texas whitetails. I've only shot one whitetail with the 265-grain Hornady. I shot the deer through both lungs and didn't get any expansion. I think it is a fine bullet but it is just intended for tougher game. Might be the same story with the Speer 270-grain Gold Dot.

Cast bullets are another story and I've killed many a hog now with Marshall's Beartooth Bullets. This led me to casting my own and I have killed quite an assortment of critters in our home State. I do a lot of yacking about casting here but it is hard to beat the BTB. I think Marshall's 290-grain LFN is simply outstanding!

I do get a few funny looks from hunters here as most haven't even heard of a 444! I think those that have see it as a Northeasterner's rifle. I call it my Sendero Rifle. What you shoot with it stays in the sendero! I would not hestitate one second to shoot out to 300-yards at one of our whitetails but my hunting style is to get very close.

As far as all the different models of 444s past and present go, Marlin's (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigBore_levrAction/444.htm) current production model offers a perfect balance of features offered over the years. I use Lee Precision (http://www.leeprecision.com/) products for my reloading and home casting. Most of these I purchase through Boses' (http://www.bosesguns.com/). Brass is easy to come by. I've purchased a bunch of it through eBay but pretty much now just buy from Boses.

Michael - Do you REALLY like the .444? :D

Gringo_loco
Something else you have to consider when looking at the 45-70 vs 444 question. Which of the cartridges is the smarter and is more experienced of the two?
The 45-70 was nearly a hundred years old when those folks at Marlin invented it.
With that one consideration, the length of time and experience, the 45-70 wins hands down. :D

Jim

Thanks for your response. The information and link to Boses is much appreciated. That .444 definitely has an allure to it, and I had already made up my mind that whichever load I go with, it will be one of the current 22" barrel Marlins. I have an old octagon barreled .22 marlin rifle and have really enjoyed it over the years.

gringo_loco

Welcome Gringo, glad to see another Texan on the site... especially another Texan interested in the 444. Don't see many 444s in my part of Texas but you do see a few 45-70s.

Basically, I think you will do well with either rifle. There are not many choices of factory bullets for the 444. I think the original Remington 240-grain SP would be the better offering for our Texas whitetails. I've only shot one whitetail with the 265-grain Hornady. I shot the deer through both lungs and didn't get any expansion. I think it is a fine bullet but it is just intended for tougher game. Might be the same story with the Speer 270-grain Gold Dot.

Cast bullets are another story and I've killed many a hog now with Marshall's Beartooth Bullets. This led me to casting my own and I have killed quite an assortment of critters in our home State. I do a lot of yacking about casting here but it is hard to beat the BTB. I think Marshall's 290-grain LFN is simply outstanding!

I do get a few funny looks from hunters here as most haven't even heard of a 444! I think those that have see it as a Northeasterner's rifle. I call it my Sendero Rifle. What you shoot with it stays in the sendero! I would not hestitate one second to shoot out to 300-yards at one of our whitetails but my hunting style is to get very close.

As far as all the different models of 444s past and present go, Marlin's (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigBore_levrAction/444.htm) current production model offers a perfect balance of features offered over the years. I use Lee Precision (http://www.leeprecision.com/) products for my reloading and home casting. Most of these I purchase through Boses' (http://www.bosesguns.com/). Brass is easy to come by. I've purchased a bunch of it through eBay but pretty much now just buy from Boses.

IF you are planning on reloading 300gr. bullets (which seem a popular choice for some 45/70 shooters as they "go fast"), then either one of them will give about the same results..the .45-70 having a bit more size and the .444 having a bit more sectional density...the 45/70's big advantage comes with heavier weight bullets.

tend to reserve the 45/70 for low pressure cast bullet loads or black powder....for hot smokless will take either the .444 or (for the .45 fans) the .450Marlin. The 45/70 can do whtat the .450Marlin does, but i won't accidnetly slip a .450Marlin into a Trapdoor.

My name says it all

My name says it all

I'm in trouble.....

I choose the 45-70 Guide Gun and I'm happy I did. As I gaze into my crystal ball I see a single shot in my not-too-distant future.....another 45-70.

.444? Let me see. I seem to remember.Something reguarding a .44mag.Mag ;) .Were'nt they a rifle developed so .People who had never thought about 45-70s.Could realize,their mistake & quickly upgrade to 45-70s from .444s :confused: .No but seriously .Here in AUZthe .444 took off like a lead balloon.People either loved em or hated them. I always found them to be hard kicking beasts that did'nt come with in a mile of the 45-70. So far as bullet choice or knock down power :)

Flashhole,

Is your Guide Gun ported? I know for sure that some of Marlin's Guide Guns are, but as I look at their website today, the picture of the stainless 1895GS, does not show ports, neither does the barrel description mention them. Or , for that matter, none of the others do either (1895M or 1895G). I wonder if they have changed that about them...?

Incidentally, I'm still "sitten on the fence" trying to make up my mind which load. And I'm now considering whether to get one of the shorter barrels. I guess I've got time though. Currently offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, and this hitch still has plenty of hole left to it (gas well offshore LA).

- gringo_locoI'm in trouble.....

I choose the 45-70 Guide Gun and I'm happy I did. As I gaze into my crystal ball I see a single shot in my not-too-distant future.....another 45-70.

Dave,

Have you read Marshall Stanton's tech notes on the .444? They're rather compelling with thorough attention to technical detail. Does the .444 kick harder than the .45-70? Seems like they'd be rather comparable, with the .45-70 probably harder given it's larger grain bullets. I've never fired either one of these calibers, so I'm completely going by examination of technical literature and a rudimentary consideration :rolleyes: of the laws of physics.

Incidentally, I appreciate yours and everyone else's input here. :D Glad to see that us gun-loving Americans are in good company around the globe....and lest I forget, beer-loving too :D. Foster's not a bad brew, and oh what I wouldn't give for an Octoberfest in a frosted mug right now.

- gringo_loco

.444? Let me see. I seem to remember.Something reguarding a .44mag.Mag ;) .Were'nt they a rifle developed so .People who had never thought about 45-70s.Could realize,their mistake & quickly upgrade to 45-70s from .444s :confused: .No but seriously .Here in AUZthe .444 took off like a lead balloon.People either loved em or hated them. I always found them to be hard kicking beasts that did'nt come with in a mile of the 45-70. So far as bullet choice or knock down power :)

Have to admint, I use to reserve the .444 for one specail situation. Have 45/70's, but the .444 was at it's best for me with a well constructed 240gr. bullet blasing along at max. speed (and you could get 2400fps in that original 24" barrled/Monte Carlo stocked version...and could change the odd looking butt stock). Reserved it for hunting our small whitetail deer on crowded wildlife managment areas...places where you had better slap that deer down right now 'cause if it runs, antoher hunter will shoot it.

Lots of people cussed that 240gr. loading...but on swamp whitetail, it did a very good job of slapping them down. Was trading penetration for lmore immediate expasnion...these deer aren't that thick.

Could the 45-70 do jsut as good a job? Probably, but it would need a fast expanding JHP bullet to do it.

Gringo .Ive fired both cals out of Malin 1894s,as I own a 45-70 & one of my best mates (whom I belive was dropped on his head at birth :D ) owns the .444 (although with really good theropy ,Prozac & electro shock treatment .I'm sure he'd see the error of his ways & buy a 45-70 ) Having shot a variaty of rounds through mine & the 2or is it 3? out of his .I have always found the .444 to be the harder kicker of the 2 :D

Does the .444 kick harder than the .45-70? Seems like they'd be rather comparable, with the .45-70 probably harder given it's larger grain bullets. I've never fired either one of these calibers, so I'm completely going by examination of technical literature and a rudimentary consideration :rolleyes: of the laws of physics.

Hey Gringo...

Loaded to the max for a given bullet weight, they all kick pretty much the same. I've put a grind to fit LimbSaver pad on all three of my 444s and the 1895MR in 450 Marlin. I've shot as many as 60 heavy 444 loads in one sitting with no problems and my shoulders are pretty sensitive as I've had them both cut on for a torn and seperated rotator cuff.

How long do you stay offshore on a shift, 7 days?

Gringo...loco

Yeah, mine is the ported version. It's my favorite gun to shoot. I handload and the 350 grain Hornady bullet is a super performer in this gun, I bought a box of 1500 bullets. I put it atop 58 grains of Varget and use a CCI 200 primer, no reason to use a magnum primer.

I had it scoped with a Burris 2.5 - 8 X 33m Signature Series scope and could easily put 5 out of 5 shots inside a 2" Shoot-N-See from 100 yards. I have since removed the scope and put it on my 300 Win Mag and just recently installed the Williams Firesights, green dots rear, red dot front. I like this combination better for the kind of gun it is. I gave up some accuracy, my eyes, not the gun, but I can consistently hit 5" Shoot-N-See targets from 50 yards off-hand and the gun is more fun. The gun is a more accurate gun than I am a shooter and it's really impressive to see large holes in the target.

Recoil - it kicks but not near as hard as my 300. I'm 5'8" tall 205 pounds. The recoil is not unmanageable at all, especially when standing, and with factory loads its actually pretty tame. Some powders are sharper than others and that has a lot to do with felt recoil. For example, Reloader #7 is sharper than Varget and with the same bullet at about the same velocity the RE#7 powder has more felt recoil. I don't get good accuracy with RE#7 so I stopped using it. Another good powder is Accurate Arms MR3100, I use this with lead bullets and it works really well. Really well = accurate.

I resigned myself to the fact the gun is a 150 yard gun max and the loads I have developed work well inside that range. It drops too much at 200 yards to take an accurate/sure shot. I practice with it every time I go to the range. I have it outfitted with a sling and that helps a lot with off-hand shooting. I think Marlin discontinued the ported version but they are still available from on-line sources. When I bought my gun I had the ported and nonported versions sitting on the table in front of me and went the ported route. No regrets. The short barrel makes the gun real handy to tote around all day. My next 45-70 will be a single shot with a long barrel (28" or longer), probably a Browining High Wall.

Nothing at all wrong with the 444 but my vote goes to the 45-70, especially if you intend to handload.

I've owned both the .444 and .45-70. Bought the .444 when I first came to Alaska in 1976. I never could match the factory ammo performance by reloading, and there wasn't much choice in bullets back then. I didn't spend a great deal of time on it, as my grandfather had purchased a Marlin in .45-70, when they were reintroduced in 1972, and he gave it to me. (He bought it on a whim because it reminded him of his childhood.) Like Flashhole, I've found the 350 gr Hornady RN the best choice for reloading. I too limit my shots to no more than 150 yd, but am using open sights. Neither rifle is something you go out and casually plink with, unless you wear a recoil pad. I think either would be an excellent choice for thick brush and short ranges.

Hey Gringo...

Loaded to the max for a given bullet weight, they all kick pretty much the same. I've put a grind to fit LimbSaver pad on all three of my 444s and the 1895MR in 450 Marlin. I've shot as many as 60 heavy 444 loads in one sitting with no problems and my shoulders are pretty sensitive as I've had them both cut on for a torn and seperated rotator cuff.

How long do you stay offshore on a shift, 7 days?

Ranch Dog,

Apologize for not responding sooner. I don't work a normal shift in terms of days or hours...I typically work for as long as the job takes...I am a Field Service Engineer. Last Summer, '04, I worked 60 days straight about 20 miles from Pecos, TX on a land job. While that was going on, my wife took a trip back to Venezuela to visit with her family, which made it easier for her while I was away. The currrent job I am on started on Feb. 16, '05 and I was on the rig for about a month...then went back to Houston for about 3 days while the rig set casing, then came back for another month...and so on and so forth. It just depends how the job goes.

I have a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from U.T.-Austin. I used to work for a semiconductor firm there in Austin. I may go back into that industry...who knows what the future holds :cool:. I don't think I will stay in this position for much longer...good money, but not a way to spend your life.

OK, back to shooting...what kind of range do you consider your 450 Marlin good for? It's really just a commerical hot load 45/70 with a belted case -- right? I ask because I recall earlier you mentioned that you wouldn't hesitate to shoot 300 yds with your 444 except you like to hunt close. I know most people consider these loads good for only about 150 yds. Just trying get opinions from those with experience as opposed to just the general literature available. My only rifle experience are the 30-30, .257 Roberts, .30-06 and of course the sweet little .22

- gringo_loco

Gringo...loco

Yeah, mine is the ported version. It's my favorite gun to shoot. I handload and the 350 grain Hornady bullet is a super performer in this gun, I bought a box of 1500 bullets. I put it atop 58 grains of Varget and use a CCI 200 primer, no reason to use a magnum primer.

I had it scoped with a Burris 2.5 - 8 X 33m Signature Series scope and could easily put 5 out of 5 shots inside a 2" Shoot-N-See from 100 yards. I have since removed the scope and put it on my 300 Win Mag and just recently installed the Williams Firesights, green dots rear, red dot front. I like this combination better for the kind of gun it is. I gave up some accuracy, my eyes, not the gun, but I can consistently hit 5" Shoot-N-See targets from 50 yards off-hand and the gun is more fun. The gun is a more accurate gun than I am a shooter and it's really impressive to see large holes in the target.

Recoil - it kicks but not near as hard as my 300. I'm 5'8" tall 205 pounds. The recoil is not unmanageable at all, especially when standing, and with factory loads its actually pretty tame. Some powders are sharper than others and that has a lot to do with felt recoil. For example, Reloader #7 is sharper than Varget and with the same bullet at about the same velocity the RE#7 powder has more felt recoil. I don't get good accuracy with RE#7 so I stopped using it. Another good powder is Accurate Arms MR3100, I use this with lead bullets and it works really well. Really well = accurate.

I resigned myself to the fact the gun is a 150 yard gun max and the loads I have developed work well inside that range. It drops too much at 200 yards to take an accurate/sure shot. I practice with it every time I go to the range. I have it outfitted with a sling and that helps a lot with off-hand shooting. I think Marlin discontinued the ported version but they are still available from on-line sources. When I bought my gun I had the ported and nonported versions sitting on the table in front of me and went the ported route. No regrets. The short barrel makes the gun real handy to tote around all day. My next 45-70 will be a single shot with a long barrel (28" or longer), probably a Browining High Wall.

Nothing at all wrong with the 444 but my vote goes to the 45-70, especially if you intend to handload.

Flashhole,

Have you ever fired the short barreled version without ports?... I was thinking to get a 22" barrel Marlin, but the idea of the 18.5" barrel is appealing from the standpoint of toting in the field. I also like the idea that the Guide Gun is available in stainless.

- gringo_loco

OK, back to shooting...what kind of range do you consider your 450 Marlin good for? It's really just a commerical hot load 45/70 with a belted case -- right? I ask because I recall earlier you mentioned that you wouldn't hesitate to shoot 300 yds with your 444 except you like to hunt close. I know most people consider these loads good for only about 150 yds. Just trying get opinions from those with experience as opposed to just the general literature available. My only rifle experience are the 30-30, .257 Roberts, .30-06 and of course the sweet little .22

GL...

I haven't shot my 450 Marlin enough to have the confidence out to that type of range. I do consider myself to be a short range hunter and will work hard to shoot an animal at a minimum distance. Range is also defined and limited by the sights and proficiency of the shooter. Of course, this you know.

I have been on hog hunts where all three of these calibers are being used and they all deliver the same terminal results! I simply can't see where you would go wrong by choosing any one of the three.

I have both.
If you want the gun for 'lower 48' hunting go with the 444. It will shoot flater and have more than enough 'whack' for anything there and the recoil is less.
BUT if you are going to hunt BIG BEARS or Buff I would go with the 45-70 or 450!!
I have a trip planned for Kodiak this fall and the 45-70 is the one for that, but for general use I like the 444, but I would not sell one to buy the other, like the 270 vs the 280 thing!!! ;)

One thing I like about the 444, is that they can shoot the same bullets as my 44mag.
When I found myself shooting quite a bit I decided to get into casting to save some dough. (Not sure i saved much, but it is fun though.) I can cast a veriety of bullets that will shoot great in my rifle or pistol since they both like .431s.
Im not sure if this is possible with the 45/70 and 45 colt as i think one is .458 and the other .454.

Gringo,
In case you haven't figured it out, you really struck a note with this post. You'll see many people argue Winchester versus Marlin, but this .444 versus the .45/70 really brings things to the boiling point. The old Marlin Talk site's Big Bore forum was chock full of some very strong counter opinions on just this subject.
Personally I like them both, and don't think you'd be disappointed by either. I've owned the Marlin 1895G, ported .45/70 guide gun. I own a single shot H+R .45/70, and a Marlin .444 ported barreled Outfitter. Of these three the .444 has better accuracy, the .45/70 has a bigger and better choice of bullets. I have two bits of advise for you, first if you can, buy both. Secondly, unless your hunting the biggest and baddest out there, go for the .444. Mine shoots the Hornady 265gr. jacketed bullets the best. They were developed just for the rifle in .444. My 45/70 prefers Hornady 350 gr. Jacketed RNSP bullets. Cast bullets work well in both calibers.
Hope this helps!
Don

Gringo,
In case you haven't figured it out, you really struck a note with this post. You'll see many people argue Winchester versus Marlin, but this .444 versus the .45/70 really brings things to the boiling point. The old Marlin Talk site's Big Bore forum was chock full of some very strong counter opinions on just this subject.
Personally I like them both, and don't think you'd be disappointed by either. I've owned the Marlin 1895G, ported .45/70 guide gun. I own a single shot H+R .45/70, and a Marlin .444 ported barreled Outfitter. Of these three the .444 has better accuracy, the .45/70 has a bigger and better choice of bullets. I have two bits of advise for you, first if you can, buy both. Secondly, unless your hunting the biggest and baddest out there, go for the .444. Mine shoots the Hornady 265gr. jacketed bullets the best. They were developed just for the rifle in .444. My 45/70 prefers Hornady 350 gr. Jacketed RNSP bullets. Cast bullets work well in both calibers.
Hope this helps
Don

Big Blue,

No doubt I hit a chord, and I've enjoyed listening to every note played so far :D. Tain't nothing wrong with stirring the pot once in a while. Seriously though, seeing all the different opinions and individual experiences provides the kind of information I've been looking for. There is no doubt that the .45/70 has the best choice of bullet selection. A concern I have about the .444 is availability of brass. I don't intend to build my stock on purchasing factory loads at retail prices...Ouch, that hurts just thinking about it. Not a wealthy man as yet. Still haven't made up my mind yet, but once I do, I'll post to let everyone know. However, I agree with a number of posts made...it sounds like splitting hairs comparing the two and I won't end up a loser no matter which way I go ;). I have to say, that I'm really glad I stumbled onto the Beartooth Bullets website. There's a wealth of information here, and no shortage of good folks attending the forum :p.

- gringo_loco

I have both.
If you want the gun for 'lower 48' hunting go with the 444. It will shoot flater and have more than enough 'whack' for anything there and the recoil is less.
BUT if you are going to hunt BIG BEARS or Buff I would go with the 45-70 or 450!!
I have a trip planned for Kodiak this fall and the 45-70 is the one for that, but for general use I like the 444, but I would not sell one to buy the other, like the 270 vs the 280 thing!!! ;)
Jim,

Based on the representation on this page, it sounds almost inevitable, that if one makes its way into the gun cabinet...the other eventually will follow. I don't honestly know if I will ever get the privelege of hunting in Alaska...it's a place I'd like to see someday. I've mentioned moving up that way for work in the oilpatch to my wife a time or too....she puts her foot down quick. I believe it is fear of the unknown...and maybe the cold. She's from down by the equator in Venezuela, and her first Texas winter was a rude awakening. No doubt, it surely does not compare to what an Alaskan winter would deliver :p.

- Gringo Loco

A concern I have about the .444 is availability of brass.

I buy once fired Hornady brass for both the 444 and 450 Marlin for $20/100. It's going to last a long, long time. New brass runs about .32/each. There is no end to brass on the horizon.

The 444 was designed to be like one of the old express cartridges. These were mostly around 45 cal black powder rounds with light for caliber bullets and a heavy charge. The idea was to have a point blank range of 150 yds so a hunter wouldnt have to hold over much making hits easier. Take a look at the drop tables for both rounds. With the 265 Hornandy you can almost get a 200yrd point blank, would have to hold only a little over at that distance. The only other difference is the cost of bullets. You can get cheap 44 cast bullets for a light practice load. You can also get bulk 44 jacketed bullets a lot cheaper than any 458 cal rifle bullet. If you cast your own, then the cost is about the same. Had a 444 back in the 70's. When I took it to the range the guys with the 300 mags and 7mm mags would laugh until they saw the groups I would get at 200 yds using a 4x scope. I dont know about the 45/70, but it is fairly easy to get good groups with the 444 using regular 44 jacketed bullets. All that being said, I dont have a lever gun right now and would be hard pressed to decide between these two. Good luck.

I buy once fired Hornady brass for both the 444 and 450 Marlin for $20/100. It's going to last a long, long time. New brass runs about .32/each. There is no end to brass on the horizon.

Ranch Dog,

Are you getting it from Boses? I've checked their page and cannot find any new or once fired brass for the 444. A general search on the internet does not reveal much...some, but not much.

- Gringo Loco

Well now,

I have had the opportunity to load both and while I did not have problems obtaining either one really, I did notices that there are a lot fewer loads available for the .444 than for the 45-70. There are several variations even of the .45-70 since the gun was made in breech and lever and bolt action rifles. The speeds differ from around 1600fps to 2400 fps with the different gun types and loads for each. The .444 is a little different case and, tends to lean toward a lighter weight bullet most of the time say, 245 to 300 grain. The .45-70 tends to lean toward the heavier bullets, the 350 grain and the 400 grain and larger.

If you are only going to hunt deer and elk and not really going to do much else, the .444 is fun and will certainly handle all of that. The .45-70 to me is more when you want to hunt anything out there and, some may say that it is too little umph to kill a bear but many a big bear has been downed with lead bullets in .45-70 and the new barnes x bullets in the .45-70 will take any animal that you want to shoot at. You may find the cases to be cheaper with the .45-70 just because it is like the 30-06, very popular for a long time and there are lots of cases out there to be purchased reasonably priced. The .444 seems to be a bit higher priced due to it not being as popular and widely used. The other thing to keep in mind is that if you are toying with the idea of getting a .444, the .44 magnum may be better suited. There is very little difference ballistically between the two and the .44 magnum rifle is very accurate, very light, and the casings are less costly and the powder charge is less as well. I have two now and both the marlin and the ruger are extremely good firearms. Just a bug in your ear since you were wondering. The .45-70 marlin I have is extremely accurate as well however, since it is light it takes an experienced shooter to take the pounding the 400 grain bullet will give you in the light weight rifle to keep it on target.

Are you getting it from Boses?

I get it from Safari Supply (http://stores.ebay.com/Safari-Supply_Riffle-Brass-100-pc_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQtZkm) which is an eBay store.

gringo_loco,
you still here? Location on a practical point of view would be par for the lever guns as mentioneed. 444 cal. down south and .45-70 for parts like unto where I live. I too read the "Marshall" article on the triple 4 and found it to be a very good read. I have the ported guidegun 1895G in the .45-70 chambering and reload only hardcast of 405gr up to 460 and Kodiaks 350&405 bonded FP-understandably why. I've worked the "oilpatch" for years as both a roughneck and derrickhand and it is "enviromentally and weather tough", think you're wife is wise to keep things going around the equator :D I've still have yet to put on a grind to fit Simms SLV on my pet-she rips pretty darn good. Oh buy the way my barrel was slugged at 3 places @front sight "area" .457.5", @midbore .459", @reardovetail cut .455.5" - I've dbl. and triple checked my readings and they are as such. I will be ordering Marshalls lapping kit today to clean up this barrel. Figure to share that with you cause you're rifle may need surely to be slugged.

I shoot a 444 loaded with 210 gr HPs. It shoot flat and hits like a freight train. I have NEVER had to 'track' a deer. Pure lightning. I went with the triple 4 because after reading all the research I could find, I figured it could do everything the 45-70 could do and without the rainbow trajectory. Granted, it won't shoot the 350-400 gr bullets, but I don't need to worry about grizzlies where I hunt. The triple 4 will knock an elk or deer off his feet and should I go to where the griz live, I'll carry my 300RUM

I figured it could do everything the 45-70 could do and without the rainbow trajectory.

When loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't can shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin and deliver more energy to the target and recoil to the shooter while doing so.

I call it my Sendero Rifle. What you shoot with it stays in the sendero!

Geeze Ranch Dog, that sure is a scary lookin' critter in the attached pic! Does that mean part of your stompin' grounds includes the King Ranch? ;=]

Put it down w/ the .444?

Flashhole,

Have you ever fired the short barreled version without ports?... I was thinking to get a 22" barrel Marlin, but the idea of the 18.5" barrel is appealing from the standpoint of toting in the field. I also like the idea that the Guide Gun is available in stainless.

- gringo_loco

Been on the road.....sorry for the delayed response.....No I haven't had the opportunity to shoot a 22" barrel version of the gun. Seen a few at the range and also the cowboy model. That's an interesting configuration for the 45-70. Nothing bad to say about a 444 and have never fired one but I were going to do the two big-bore lever gun thing I would take a serious look at the 405 Winchester. Since I already own a 45-70 it makes more sense to me to consider a 40 caliber bullet. A 405 is on my wish list too.

Geeze Ranch Dog, that sure is a scary lookin' critter in the attached pic! Does that mean part of your stompin' grounds includes the King Ranch? ;=]

Put it down w/ the .444?

I met up with the nilgai on the Yutturi Ranch which is North of Raymondville and East of US77. Yeap, took it with the 444 and a cast bullet.

gringo_loco,
you still here? Location on a practical point of view would be par for the lever guns as mentioneed. 444 cal. down south and .45-70 for parts like unto where I live. I too read the "Marshall" article on the triple 4 and found it to be a very good read. I have the ported guidegun 1895G in the .45-70 chambering and reload only hardcast of 405gr up to 460 and Kodiaks 350&405 bonded FP-understandably why. I've worked the "oilpatch" for years as both a roughneck and derrickhand and it is "enviromentally and weather tough", think you're wife is wise to keep things going around the equator :D I've still have yet to put on a grind to fit Simms SLV on my pet-she rips pretty darn good. Oh buy the way my barrel was slugged at 3 places @front sight "area" .457.5", @midbore .459", @reardovetail cut .455.5" - I've dbl. and triple checked my readings and they are as such. I will be ordering Marshalls lapping kit today to clean up this barrel. Figure to share that with you cause you're rifle may need surely to be slugged.Grizz,

Yeah, I'm still here, although truth be known, I thought this thread had died down and so I haven't checked it for a while. A derrickhand, eh?...I bet those cold winds cut like ice while tripping pipe. You have my respect ... and my envy if you are working a rotation, since you then have a paradise hunting arrangement being in Alaska.

Thanks for mentioning the barrel slugging/lapping. I have read several threads mentioning this besides Marshall's excellent tech note, and it surely warrants attention. I'd be interested to hear how your fire lapping turns out.

I've noticed that Marlin does not appear to be porting their guide guns any longer, and I do not see the .444 being offered in 18" barrels either..., only the 45/70.

Hey gang this thread is great hope it keeps going. Neat to see(hear) from guys around the world with the same love for both calibers. I have both 444s and 45-70govt. Love both,but I have not met a gun I have taken a dislike to yet! Maybe one that won't have a drink of scotch with me may be the first.

I admit a bias in favor of the T4 because that's what I own. Bullets that have gone through this rifle include BTB 405s, BTB 330s, BTB 300s, BTB lapping bullets, and Speer .44 300s from mild to wild. It delivers awe inspiring power you have to feel to appreciate. The power factor encouraged my 16 yr old son to explore guns other than EBRs. In all fairness, I must say 45-70 commercial ammo seems more readily available in central Texas than does T4. Might be a concern if you don't reload. Remington and Starline T4 brass is readily available off the Internet, but so much at my local gun stores.

Gringo,
In case you haven't figured it out, you really struck a note with this post. You'll see many people argue Winchester versus Marlin, but this .444 versus the .45/70 really brings things to the boiling point. The old Marlin Talk site's Big Bore forum was chock full of some very strong counter opinions on just this subject. . . SNIP SNIP . .


To add to the discussion, there are some of us who claim the Winchester version of the 444 is better than the Marlin flavor. Winchester built thier big-bore 444 to a higher pressure specification that Marlin and has a higher twist to the barrel allowing them to shoot cast bullets better.

Having said that, I own both a Marlin 45-70 (smooth as melted butter) and a Winchester Big Bore 444. They're both great weapons but I enjoy the 444 more.