Yesterday I was at the range and noticed some of my 30-30 casings were cracked after firing. The crack is at the shoulder left from my sizing die. This is about half an inch or so above the rim.

I use moderate loads of H322 (30.0 grains) and 150 gr bullets. I figure these Remington casings have been reloaded SIX times.

Is this fairly typical for the rest of you?

That isn't normal from my experience. Any chance there is some crud in your sizing die that may be scratching the brass?

Yesterday I was at the range and noticed some of my 30-30 casings were cracked after firing. The crack is at the shoulder left from my sizing die. This is about half an inch or so above the rim.

I use moderate loads of H322 (30.0 grains) and 150 gr bullets. I figure these Remington casings have been reloaded SIX times.

Is this fairly typical for the rest of you?

Crack runs vertically (along the long axis of the case) or radialy (around the case)?

In the seoncd case (radial) cracking is not a sizing die fault...it's a warning that either (1) the rifle has excessive headspace (2) the siZing die is pushing the shoulder back...even on a rimmed case, pushing the shoulder back and blowing it back out each firing will case this kind of radial crack (if it goes all the way around it's a seperation) or (3) both.

Longitudinal cracking is usually a brass problem or a sizing die problem...but to make a case crack, the sing die has to leave a pretty deep scratch.

The cracks are radial along the web of the casing.

My Lyman manual indiates, among other things, excessive headspace, or faulty dies.

The dies are LEE and I don't think there is a problem with them.

Might be the headspace as this rifle is a 1948 336 model. I'll locate a NO-GO gage and check it.

These cases might be soft too, last time I had a lot of trimming to do to bring them down to specification.

I have a newer 336 that I can use for a while to see if I get longer case life.

Go / No Go ages won't necessarily tell you anything, with a rimmed cartridge. On a .30-30, it's the rim that's the only thing which officially counts for headspace. The rim recess can be in spec, and you can still be pushing the shoulders back too much when resizing.

You may need to set the sizing die up a bit in the press so it doesn't set the shoulder back. A tool like the RCBS Precision Mic, or even a homemade job (see http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/50 ) will tell you what is happening.

Most dies will in fact size a case more than it needs to.

Agree with Mike...with a rimmed case, can be in spec. for headapsce and still ruin cases in short order...many .303Brits. have correct headpsace, but still chew up full length sized cases in just a few loadings. Your 30-30 may be one as well.

Neck size and see how long new cases last.

The other question is how old was that brass...just becasue it was fired in that chamber only a few times, wre the cases used before this rifle? Bradn new cases that only last a few firings are a big red waring flag...but used cases from who-knows-where may just have been ready to die before you touched them.

New brass is about the only real diagnostic test....true once fired brass (REAL once fired...not the stuff the local gun shop claims is once fired) is pretty good (unless it was once fired in a chamber with problems). Brass polishers are common...and with some care, can make well worn cases look resoanbly presentable.

Well, I guessed wrong on that one. I pictured the cracks running lengthwise and didn't think to ask otherwise. Glad to see someone is thinking.

The casings in question are "once-fired" Remington’s that I bought on Ebay.

I have been resizing the whole case rather than just the neck so this may be part of the problem. I am relatively new to rifle cartridge reloading having done a lot of straight wall pistol reloading where I always would resize the full length of the casing.

Some of the casings may have been reloaded and full length resized SEVEN times, I lost track of some of them when I was playing around with cast bullet reloads.

Last night I looked at the remaining unfired cartridges of this same lot and some of them show a “bright ring” around the web that indicates insipient case head separation.

I will start sizing the neck only to see if this affects my case life. However, since I have two Marlin 30-30’s I’ll size them so that they will fit both rifles.

Question, couldn’t I take a spent casing and see if it will fit both chambers? If it does, doesn’t this mean I should be able to resize the neck only and be on my way?

ALSO, the primers from this lot are slightly “cratered” which my Speer manual tells me can be caused by too much clearance between the breech face firing pin hole and the firing pin. In addition, a week firing pin spring can cause this. This rifle has a new one-piece firing pin installed to clear up a “Marlin-Safety” problem but I do not remember any excessive clearances or dimensions when I compared the new pin to the old.

As far as NO-GO and FIELD gages, I guess I don’t understand why they would not tell me if I had a headspace problem. The Forster gauges for the 30-30 have a rim on them, which seems like it would test the headspace since they are machined to MAX SAAMI dimensions.

Maybe there are some websites that describe this measurement better?

Thanks.

The gages will tell you if you have an excess headspace problem. But even if you don't, you still do not have the tools to deal with setting up your reloading dies.

With two guns, odds are that fired brass won't interchange, at least not more than a time or two. You really need some sort of gage to measure the shoulder position, and adjust your dies accordingly.

Either that, or separate the brass for the guns, and neck-size accordingly.

The gages will tell you if you have an excess headspace problem. But even if you don't, you still do not have the tools to deal with setting up your reloading dies.

With two guns, odds are that fired brass won't interchange, at least not more than a time or two. You really need some sort of gage to measure the shoulder position, and adjust your dies accordingly.

Either that, or separate the brass for the guns, and neck-size accordingly.

Please don't take this as a flame. I'm just confused about something.

Here's how I think the FL-resize works:The 30-30 has a gradual shoulder and a tapered body. The outter part of a resize die reshapes the neck and body, perhaps down to the casehead, but it doesn't touch the shoulder. The expander plug brings the neck back to size.

So if the shoulder begins at the wrong place, because of fire forming in a gun with excessive head-space, you can't bring the shoulder back. You can either fix the gun, or make up some special brass that has been "lightly" fireformed to that rifle, and neck-size exclusively. This brass then becomes the only brass for that rifle.

OK, now if I'm wrong, be gentle :)

So maybe what I can do is obtain fireformed cases from my OTHER rifle and take measurements of both and compare. Although I am not sure I can measure the shoulder angle directly, only indirectly like with Trigonometry.

Ther 30-30 uses the rim to headspace...so no matter where that chamber locates the shoulder, it's not headspace. Some rimmed chambers are very careless about that shoulder's location...evidently some chambers take the philosophy that more is better, moveing the shoulder forward (it doesn't change headspace) to insure chambering even dirty/cruddy/crusty cartridges.

So even with dies tha are a p[erfect match to what the base to shoulder dimention is supose to be...and brass cases that start out life mathing this dimention...if the chamber lets that shoulder blow forward and youi puish it back to "standard" dimentions, will evnetually weaken the brass at the web and produce radial cracks. Blwoing that brass forward at each firing and moving it back at each resizing will (1) make teh brass grow in length and require trimming and (2) weaken the web area.

Your description for a sizing die is pretty good. What does happen when you squeeze just the base is that the shoulder moves forward a bit...kind of like squeezing a banana at the bottom, it will make the top move forward....so they often set the die for shoulder contact to put the shoulder back where it is supose to be.

Please don't take this as a flame. I'm just confused about something.

Here's how I think the FL-resize works:The 30-30 has a gradual shoulder and a tapered body. The outter part of a resize die reshapes the neck and body, perhaps down to the casehead, but it doesn't touch the shoulder. The expander plug brings the neck back to size.

So if the shoulder begins at the wrong place, because of fire forming in a gun with excessive head-space, you can't bring the shoulder back. You can either fix the gun, or make up some special brass that has been "lightly" fireformed to that rifle, and neck-size exclusively. This brass then becomes the only brass for that rifle.

OK, now if I'm wrong, be gentle :)

Nope.... F/L die pushes back the shoulder, as well, at least if it's all the way down in the press.

Trick is to set the die to only bring the shoulder back 0.002" or so shorter than the chamber. You can't do that eyeballing it or with a yardstick, you have to have a tool or gage of some sort. That's one of the things a Precision Mic will do.

Well here is a question for a question. Why doesn't someone make steel cases for the 3030 since the brass ones are such a problem?

Well here is a question for a question. Why doesn't someone make steel cases for the 3030 since the brass ones are such a problem?

Think they'd like to...is a much cheaper metal. In WWII we tried it (whish is why those colletor steel pennies from the 1940's)...Germans got it to work (probably becasue they didn't have a choice), but reloading wasn't part of the plan...steel reloades less well than brass, giving even shorter case life. Lot of x-communist ammo is steel cases, and it works pretty well, but the people who try relaoding it find out that cracks necks even faster than brass.

IDea is brass contracts after it expands...contracts enough to let it get back out of the chamber. Steel doesn't contract as much...not a problem in loose sloppy military chambers..and thbey tend to coat the steel cases with eigher a plating or a chemical cloating to (1) stop corrosion (2) ease extraction.

Now how do you break a steel coat hanger? Bend it back and forth a few times and it snaps. That bending back and forth is a good representation of resizing and reloading a few times.

Well, I understand the reloading drawbacks. Shuck the reloading if the steel cases are cheap! They are stronger and would let us crank up the 30 30 round a bit more - in bolt action guns or the stronger levers at least.

Well, I understand the reloading drawbacks. Shuck the reloading if the steel cases are cheap! They are stronger and would let us crank up the 30 30 round a bit more - in bolt action guns or the stronger levers at least.

Limiting factor for traditional leverguns has always been pressure...a stronger case won't change that. Brass cases live fine at 55k pressures...above what a tradtional lever gun should be run...so a steel case in a 30-30 wouldn't be all that helpful.

Might lessen the chance of a case seperating (at least with non-reloaded ammo), but belive the forece exerted on the action would still be limited by the same peak pressure.

To tell the truth, 30-30 barss is pretty cheap...if all you get are 6 reloads, then load them 5 times and pitch them.

Im with Ribbonstone on that - five times is not bad for 30-30 cases. You could try partial sizing. By that I mean start out with the sizing die about 2 turns out from the shellholder. Size a case and try it in the rifle. If the bolt wont close then turn in the die 1/2 turn and try it again. Keep sizing and trying until you get the case to chamber easily. Turn the die in 1/8 turn more. Then run a case in and leave it at the top of the stroke. Tighten down the die's locking ring. Then size 4 or 5 more cases and try them in the rifle. If the bolt closes ok on them, then the die is set to size the minimum amount for the rifle's chamber. The other thing you could do is start using a cast bullet with a lighter charge for practice. The brass probably would last longer and you will save money on powder. The 30-30 is a great cartridge for cast bullets.

Shooting a single shot 30-30 (old H&R "topper") or a Savage 340 bolt action, will just neck size when possible...usually it's possible for 4-6 firings before having to full length resize to make chambering a bit easier. Using cast bullets of jacketed loads in the lower pressure range, will go through about 20-25 firings before being retired...could anneal them and keep on going, but belive that after brass has been trimmed three times, it's time to pitch it (the stuff trimmed off didn't teleport there, it migrated from the areas best left full thickness).

Have no complants abut 30-30 brass,,,but sizing full length for most of the sloppy chambers/springy actions will cut your case life drastically....getting that last 100fps probably reduces case life by 1/3.

"The 30-30 is a great cartridge for cast bullets."

Personally I don't use cast bullets in anything over about 1300fps. I have had a couple of bad experiences with heavy lead deposits in the throat and barrel that are very difficult to get rid of.

"The 30-30 is a great cartridge for cast bullets."

Personally I don't use cast bullets in anything over about 1300fps. I have had a couple of bad experiences with heavy lead deposits in the throat and barrel that are very difficult to get rid of.

PRobably 90% of my cast bullet shooting is at that level; no gas check and simple basic alloy...just looking for accuracy in a load that is not so close to the "edge" that some minor variation makes it fall apart.

To get those max. effort lead reloads, have to use good alloy...to make them repeatable time after time, best to stay with known pure mixes that can be re-created at will. Even then, temperature variations can make a great load at 50 degrees into a horrible one at 95 degrees.

Think the simple rule for brass life is:
The more you work the case, the shorter it's lifetime.

(Pretty good rule for gun barrels as well.)

I bet the problem is that those cases weren't actually once fired ones. I bet they threw some old cases into a polisher, threw them in a bag and called them once-fired so someone would buy them.

Think they'd like to...is a much cheaper metal. In WWII we tried it (whish is why those colletor steel pennies from the 1940's)...Germans got it to work (probably becasue they didn't have a choice), but reloading wasn't part of the plan...steel reloades less well than brass, giving even shorter case life. Lot of x-communist ammo is steel cases, and it works pretty well, but the people who try relaoding it find out that cracks necks even faster than brass.

IDea is brass contracts after it expands...contracts enough to let it get back out of the chamber. Steel doesn't contract as much...not a problem in loose sloppy military chambers..and thbey tend to coat the steel cases with eigher a plating or a chemical cloating to (1) stop corrosion (2) ease extraction.

Now how do you break a steel coat hanger? Bend it back and forth a few times and it snaps. That bending back and forth is a good representation of resizing and reloading a few times.
I would recommend : Buy new unfired brass, keep brass for each rifle seperate - obviously, the chambers are very different.
Neck size only, checking every few loads for overall case length not to exceed the max.

This should solve the problem easily.
I used this methodt with .303 Brit ammo in several SMLE's, and was able to load the ammo very hot and got quite a few reloads out of the brass with no problems.

Good luck

Mark