Is this much trouble about nothing?

I'm looking at attaining 1,000 ft/lbs of energy @ 100 yds. Is this a waste of time with the .357? Perhaps the bullet energy doesn't translate adequately to knockdown power.

I like the profile and what seems to me to be stability potential of the 170-180gr .357mag, as opposed to that of the 240gr .44mag bullet. Perhaps someone can address some comment towards this, like sectional density.

It's possible that 2,000 fps is especially tricky to load in the .357mag, or load accurately/consistently, or that 2,000 fps is simply too fast for this bullet. I'd like 250yd accuracy (and egg in my beer, and my cake and eat it, too, of course).

Maybe achieving this velocity would require a compressed load or very near max pressure (neither of which I want to be anywhere near).

Are the XTP and FPGC bullets inherently poor performers given that muzzle velocity when they hit at 125 yds and 250yds?

If I use the .44mag 240gr bullet, of course, I wouldn't have to run as fast, and I'd be closer towards "using enough gun", but this isn't a decision I want to make based on ignorance or vague rules of thumb.

Thank you for reading,

1x2

The XTPs I am using 158s seem to shoot well at 100yds. I do use a very stout load of 2400 an old standard for mag handgun cartridges. For what you want to do the 180 will be a little harder but I do believe attainable. To start with I would go with something unconventional, ie rifle primers and a slower than normal powder (less pressure but more fps) with a rifle bbl length and pressures you can load it to, I think it will work. Powder wise there is many choices all starting with faster burning rifle powders such as 4227 and 4198, but for your purpose I would go with a ball powder as you will get more in without having to compress it. With that 180gnr it may help. Take care and have fun. Swany

Swany,

Thank you very much for the thoughts and range of options.
Lots of test loading in the future.... :)

1x2

1X2:
What is your application, and why do you need that velocity and energy?

Darrel

I think you're premise of 180 gr. at 2000 fps is flawed. I don't, can't, get more than 1700 fps using a GC bullet.


Sometimes one can be penny wise, pound foolish. I'd suggest that you re-examine use of GC bullets.

There is Marshall's older load of the 185gr. WFN with GC and 16gr. of H110. In my gun, it only brings 1780fps on a cold day. With this powder, it woud seem a little unreasonable, as a Hornady XTP 180gr. will max out on powder considerably below this. If you need that much power, it may be prudent to get a bigger gun.

Hobie,

I don't need to reexamine the use GC bullets- this IS the examination- there is no premise. It's a question. I've read elsewhere that GCs are good for 2000+ fps, but I don't know enough about the potential of the .357. I appreciate your feedback, though.

Tio, it's for hunting elk, and 1,000 ft/lbs @ 100 yds is the lawful minimum in at least one state. It's also the consensus/opinion I've come across, but don't know what it's founded on. I don't know that 1,000 ft/lbs is necessary inside of 150 yds, but it's a lot of hurt to put on an animal if it's NOT enough gun.

This is meant to be an innocent investigation. There's lots to like about the .357 and I'm sure the 158gr will take deer, and the 170-180gr should be even better, but it may not be enough gun at its "safe" peak loading.

It just seems too easy to think "Just use enough gun"- so I could be retarded and say, Ok, how about a bazooka? Well, what about a little less? Ok, a .50 BMG. Well, what about less? Ok, so how far down can I go? If someone honestly posted "oh, I've downed three elk with three shots @ 125-175 yds with a 180gr bullet @ 1700 fps" I'd really have something to consider. So far, s'not happenin'.

I've read the story about Elmer Keith (IIRC) shooting elk with the .357mag handgun, but he's only one guy, it's one story, and I'm too late to quiz him about it.

On the old MarlinTalk, the .357 was "generally" thought to be not enough gun for elk, but I never read what I considered to be hard evidence either way, just opinion. It didn't matter to me much at the time, as I was invested in .44magnums, but that's not true, now- the .44s are all gone and I'm looking for a rifle to buy- for fun and hunting. If I could safely and consistently get 1950 fps at the muzzle out of a .357 mag 180gr bullet, I'd consider it enough gun, regardless.

Hobie's input is great, albeit sobering.

Any more thoughts and experiences?

Thanks,

1x2

Go to www.gmdr.com (http://www.gmdr.com/) check the lever rifle and then check 357. Found two loads that exceed 2000 velocity one with AA9 one with H110 and 125 grainers.
Lots of load data. Lot of variables.

Hi Sure-Shot,

It's been a couple years since I looked there. I found the two loads you mentioned from the 125gr bullet. I don't think a 125gr bullet has enough knockdown power downrange. The longer 170-180gr bullet will take up more space in the case, leaving less space for powder, is my fear.

1x2

I'm pretty sure Marshall capped an elk or two with a .357 Mag rifle.... if so, he almost certainly was using the Beartooth 185gr. bullet. Food for thought!

Hi Mike,
Can we get his attention for some feedback here?

I'm also starting a new thread on the .357 maximum.

Feedback highly desired!

1x2

1X2:

I think that you have two separate questions going, simultaneously:

The first, can you get 2000 fps from a 357 mag. carbine, using 180 grain bullets? Probably not, within standard pressure limits.

The second question is, the suitability of a 357 mag. carbine for elk. The answer seems to be: maybe, and I would like to think so, but I don’t have the experience to give you a definitive yes or no.

Darrel

Sure you can use the .357 Mag on Elk, heck you can use a .22 Mag as well, as long as you place the bullet correctly, but the question is should you? IMO no. Pushing a .357 Mag in a carbine to 2000 f/s in a search for some 1000 fp minimum is like a dog chasing his tail, fun but pointless. I think I'd invest in a bigger rifle. If you like leverguns, try a .45-70 or even a .375 Win or .38-55. Most people would not consider using a .30-30 for Elk, so why would you use something less powerful?

You might want to check here:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/357colorado.htm

It is a lower energy requirement but the process used may be of interest to you.

Kanuck,
Thanks. Yup, very interesting article. The bottom of the article notes 1900fps doing the job from a 20" Rossi barrel- just what I had in mind. My calc with a 170gr wanted 1950fps. I asked about 2000fps to give a usable margin of error for any one load (especially if fired to bring down an animal or to "prove" the 1000ft/lbs).

I do sort of have two separate questions going here; one is the progenitor of the other. I think the .357mag CARTRIDGE is the limitation, so I started the .357maximum thread to continue to pursue. The bullet is not the problem IMO, it's being able to VERY SAFELY load a .357/.358 bullet in a straight-walled cartridge to "usable" velocity (and resultant downrange energy).

Thanks, folks, this feedback is GREAT!

1x2

I have a couple of .358" loads that produce more than 1000 ft pounds of ME. I shot them out of a 22" Handi rifle.

09/05/04
.38 Special brass
170 gr Keith LSWC seated in the crimping groove
13.5 gr Alliant 2400
CCI 500
5 shot average 1698 fps at 15'
1088 ft pounds ME
Taylor KO 14.0

02/13/05
.357 brass
125 gr Sierra JHC seated in the cannelure
13.5 gr IMR SR 4756
CCI 400
3 shot average 2057 fps MV
1175 ft pounds ME
Taylor KO 13.11

The .357 load can go all the way to 14.0 gr (Speer #8 & 3rd Edition Handloader's Digest), but I backed down .5 gr just for safety. 125 gr Golden Sabers may be a little faster due to its design. The 125 gr Sierra is the same bullet I have been using since 1973 in this 14.0 gr load.