XXClaro, Chris Cash and some others are having an interesting discussion on Leverguns.com about the difference in case capacity between the .358 and .356 Winchester cases. I have looked at this a little and found very little significant difference between them. I dont know how to post pictures over there so I thought I would start another thread over here.
I trimmed some cases and have weighed them with a spent primer to see the difference.
A W-W 356 case weighed 192.0 grains.
A W-W Super .358 Winchester case weighed 176.8 grains.
A R-P .444 case formed and trimmed to .356 weighed 189.7 grains.

Filled with water to the case mouth the W-W .356 case weighed 246.2 grains.
The W-W Super .358 Winchester case weighed 233.0 grains.
The reformed but unfired R-P .444 case weighed 244.7 grains.
Fire forming this case increased the total weight of the case filled to the mouth with water 0.4 grains.

I loaded five each of the cases with 39.0 grains of Hodgdon 4198 behind a Speer 220 grain bullet and used Winchester LR primers. All cases were trimmed to 2.016”. A Lee factory crimp die was used, the COAL for all loads was 2.55”. The rimmed cases were all loaded into the magazine and fed through the action. The rimless cases were loaded in the magazine individually and feed through the action for each shot.

Fired in my 20” Winchester Model 94 Big Bore Rifle I got the following results.
W-W .356 case - 2296 fps.
W-W Super .358 Winchester case – 2289 fps.
R-P .444 case – 2281 fps.

The bottom line is ammunition loaded in the different cases have a different point of impact and must be kept segregated but it appears that our load data is interchangeable between cases.

I have attached a picture to give an indication of the ease of forming these cases. From the left is a reformed .444 case, a .358 Winchester case, a .444 Marlin case after one pass through a form trim die and a .444 marlin case. More information on case forming can be found in Myron Rockett’s good article on the .444/.308 on page 177 of the 1979 Gun Digest.

Anyone else with similar experiance?

Thank you Slim! You really shocked me with your post....you are fast sir...kind of like a ballistic 9-1-1 ;) The way I interpret your water results is:

356 Win. held 54.2 Grains Water

358 Win. held 56.2 Grains Water


Pretty darn close. Then again...I was never very good at math...hope I got that right. Thank you for clarifying this and for the load work. That is what makes all of this interesting.....to be able to take our "opinions" into the real world and trying them out. Fortunately, in the absence of any real time to do any of this, I have you! :D Many thanks again.

Chris,
your figures are corect.

It just happened that I have tried this.
now I need to get a .35 Remington so I can play with that brass!

Great info!


now if we only had some pressures to go with that info. I sensed something fishy about the Hodgden data when I called up the company. They were totally unconcerned about using max data even when the velocities were way over their listed velocities.

Thanks, Slim

Chris,
your figures are corect.

It just happened that I have tried this.
now I need to get a .35 Remington so I can play with that brass!

Slim

I am very intersted with the pressure work that Ranch Dog is going .

Just shows what I thought for some time . The 356 is a renamed 356 with a rim

As most people know the 336/35 as well as the bolt action rifles chambering the 35 Remington can be safely loaded up near the pressure of the 356W. If I am correct in this then we are talking short of 200 fps
Some shooters were reaming out the 336/35 to 356 W, for more power , others that were reloading thought 200 fps did not warrent the converstion , other than factory ammo could then be bought if one did not reload.

Then we heard ofthe 358 rimless , which is the 358 loaded to 356 Pressures I understand.

To my thinking the 356W wasa way for winchester to chamber the 358 for the 94 lever as they introduced the 307 as a rimmed 308W. Not far in difference other than a rimmed case and the need for a blunt bullet for the tube magazine.

Why the 307/ 356/358/375 never caught on is a guess , as the 35 remington held it's own over a hundred years.
The 358 bought out in '55 along with it's sister the 243, quickly got lost when we were being pushed in the super speed ,need the Mag chambers theme that till lives on today.
The 243 W took over for the 250 Savage I understand
Now that Cowboy shooting has bought back the lever to many shooters who before held the bolt , you think timing would be there to bring back the chamberings to those that would like a 35 chambering between the 35 Remington and the 35 Whelan that could be used in a lever gun.

Why the 35 calipier never caught on , when so many are reaming out the 35 Remington into something else is a question I have .
Yes the 35 bullets cost more than the 30 cal,but there is a gain.
Does every one want a 307/356/375 because they are no longer made?
I think we have a market unfilled with the eastern bush changing to becoming more dense with under growth .
Our forfathers preached to us that we did not need the big bolt action rifles with all that speed .
We needed a big bullet some where in the 2000/ 2400 speed and the game would be ours .
I learned the hard way after seeing the old timers in our camp take a deer every year while "WE" with the super bolts some times came dry.

I dropped the bolt action rifle for the trusty ol' lever .
You know , our kills per shot has gone up .

The 30/30 and the 35 Remington live as they are being rediscovered .
Now would be good timing for the 356-375 cartridge
Just a bit more range.
Oh we need to call it a new name in order to sell it , maybe chance the case a bit . Put it on a semi rim and call it the 35 super or the 35 Marlin or something to generate some interst in something new.
How many times have we fallen for that one?

My 02 cents
Happy

Harry,


"Then we heard of the 358 rimless , which is the 358 loaded to 356 Pressures I
understand."

Right, the required shorter COAL is what really limits the cartridge ability to equal the .358 Winchester. The .356 Rimless was a very good idea.

"Why the 307/ 356/358/375 never caught on is a guess , as the 35 Remington held
it's own over a hundred years."


We discussed this in-depth on the Beartooth Forum a few years ago. The reasons the .307 and .356 did not catch on are very clear. The Gunwritwriters and Winchester killed the cartridge before it could get a start. Edward Matunas took every opportunity to short change the two cartridges and the rifle they were offered in at every mention. Mr. Matunas was perhaps the worst offender in this but he was not alone.
On the up side, Layne Simpson, C. E. Harris, Ken Waters and Rick Jamison were right out front praising both the cartridges and the rifles. Layne Simpson and Ken Waters both stumped long and hard for the cartridges in print. Both men wrote more than once," the .307 Winchester was the best cartridge ever offered for the tubular magazine lever action rifle." Rick Jamison put out one of the first in-depth reviews of the rifles and reloading for the cartridges in a two part Shooting Times article. I should add Mike Venturino as he wrote the first and perhaps only cast bullet article on the .307.
Al Miller and Clay Harvey both stumped hard for the .356.

Winchester did not really try to sell either cartridge. I have written Winchester and suggested they consider dumping their advertising agency. It is a shame there are not more men like L. R. Wallack.

I have written several times about Ken Waters early stumping for increased power for the lever action rifle. One of the first serious mentions of this is in the 1958 Gun Digest. Took him awhile to get Winchesters attention! If you look this up you will see the beginning of the thoughts that led to the 7-30 Waters.
P.O. Ackley, Dean Grennel, Robert Hutton, Frank Hemstead and others discussed more power for the lever rifles in the American Reloaders Bulletin during the 1960's.
Myron Rockett leaped up and put his money on the table for the first .444/.308 wildcat. Mr. Rockett recently posted on the Leverguns Forum that his rifle was still going strong. I have pointed out several times that Rockett used what is now current loading data for his top eject Winchester.
Ken Waters came up with the wildcat .350 Main Guide cartridge to help save some older rifles the indignity of being rebarreled. This fine wildcat still has considerable merit and I do not understand why it is not more popular.

I could bore you for quite awhile with all of this! I have not mentioned Dr. Henry Stebbins yet!


"Does every one want a 307/356/375 because they are no longer made?"

This may be the motivation for some but I prefer to think that Magazine Editor Dave Scovill has done more than anyone else to promote the modern, powerful, lever action rifle for todays hunting. Scovill has written and I believe encouraged his writers to pen many good words on the modern Lever action rifle. Rifle magazines special edition "Legacy of Leverguns" is still a lot of fun to read. No other Editor has invested so much time to the modern lever rifle in the non-cowboy action shooting arena the Dave Scovill.


"I think we have a market unfilled..."

Harry, you are right about that. Note that I cut off the Eastern brush part of the sentence. The .307 and the .356 suffer no serious handicap under any reasonable shooting condition. I have never been one to believe that I just could not get with two hundred yards of my deer. While I have not done so (no luck in the drawing) I have seen antelope killed with the Model 94 .30-30 and it made a good job of it.

I believe Chris Cash and a few others could give us some insite on todays Eastern hunting.

The UPS man just dropped off my Dixie Gun Works order so I am off to play!

Slim and Harry.
Thank you for that re-cap....yep...those were the guys that got us into this! I have enjoyed very much the ones you mentioned Slim....especially Waters and Scovil. I didn't know Venturino did an article on the 307. I wish I could be more informative on Eastern Hunting. Since being back here, I have had 2 small boys, 1 with special needs, and that has changed the game somewhat. Mainly, I escape to the range and getting little shooting sessions in, but have had little luck with getting into the Deerfields. I can tell you what I have experienced Turkey Hunting and jumping Deer. Most of the Deer I've jumped have been from 10 to 30 Yards away and the shots would have to be quick. I don't like the idea of a Scope and have installed a Williams Rear with a larger aperature. Friends have taken 100 yard shots shooting from one hill to another. The most open terrain is the fields, and sitting on the edge of one is just not a good place to be. I get nervous during Turkey season at the thought of another hunter shooting toward me, much less Deer rounds coming at me. Anyway...I hope to get into the field with the 356 this Fall and will keep you guys posted.. I am also plugged in with my Dad for the AZ Elk draw...hopefully we'll get drawn and I will get to report some good results. We went after Piggies this past Feb. but no luck....just about got rained out. Will keep you guys posted and thank you for great posts!

Slim
I find it every intersting what information you share on your posts.
I do not know the writings of the people you speak of and doubt if we can access the Material they wrote.
So it is up to you to share your experiances and referances with us .It all makes very good reading.
The little I know about the 356/ 358 I have learned from you as well as my interst in the 30/30 AI . I also now look what is said about the 25/35.
I have also learned a lot from Ranch Dog and Remington 35. Coyote Hunter was a great help with reloading the 45/70.
I thank you all for the time your willing to spend in front of the tube sharing what you know , your experiance and expertise .
I am sure we are all learning from all this, and many like my self enjoy every word. Happyness is gained through Knowlege
Happy

Gentlemen -

I'm duly impressed with the knowledge and forethought that has gone into these posts.

Not much of a levergun buff, although I do own a couple of them (.22 and 45-70). Always admired my FIL's pre '64 Mod 94 in .32 Spl (BIL owns it now).

Please continue the discussions - believe all the board members have something to learn from the amassed experience/knowledge contained herein.

I'll hunt up a few links to those older posts
There is at least one Board member who knew Frank Hemstead and has posted on his life some.
Myron Rockett lurks on Leverguns and has posted at least once.
Did anyone know or meet Francis Sell or Dr. Henry Stebbins?

Chris,
your figures are corect.

It just happened that I have tried this.
now I need to get a .35 Remington so I can play with that brass!

William,

When you speak of "now I need to get a .35 Remington so I can play with that brass." Are you talking about converting your .35 Remington over to a .358 Winchester?...or something different. I read an article about such a conversion...sounded pretty cool.

As far as I know, the only current lever gun in production chambered for the .358 Winchester, is the BLR. Browning chambers that rifle in a beautiful array of cartridges...but I sure wish they'd change the finish on their gun...kind of ugly.

Or even better, I wish Winchester would resume production of the Model 88. I bet they'd see good demand for it.

Gringo Loco

When you speak of "now I need to get a .35 Remington so I can play with that brass." Are you talking about converting your .35 Remington over to a .358 Winchester?...or something different. I read an article about such a conversion...sounded pretty cool.
Gringo Loco

That is my thought. I thought I would work with it as a .35 Remington first and then convert. We have two .356 Winchesters in the family and the Marlin with slower twist rifling would make an interesting comparison.

Have three projects in progress at the moment so it will have to take a back seat to the .25-35, .36 Cap & Ball and the last part of the .307 - .30-30AI shoot off.

That is my thought. I thought I would work with it as a .35 Remington first and then convert. We have two .356 Winchesters in the family and the Marlin with slower twist rifling would make an interesting comparison.

Have three projects in progress at the moment so it will have to take a back seat to the .25-35, .36 Cap & Ball and the last part of the .307 - .30-30AI shoot off.

Busy fella you are William.

Question for ya...How is it that you know you can change the chambering without altering the pressure rating of the receiver? I'm presuming there is a little boring of the chamber involved...I'm not an advanced student of this stuff, so please excuse any obvious ignorance on my part...looking to add a little wisdom :).

- GL

Question for ya...How is it that you know you can change the chambering without altering the pressure rating of the receiver? I'm presuming there is a little boring of the chamber involved...I'm not an advanced student of this stuff, so please excuse any obvious ignorance on my part...looking to add a little wisdom :).- GL

I am a duffer compare to some guys on this board! i need to get busy!

I cannot change the pressure rateing of the reciever. I am interested in all of this because of the discussion that is going around on the subject. I have a Marlin 336 chambered for .30-30AI and it has been a very satisfactory conversion. Our Winchester Big Bore rifles in .356 are very flexible load wise with no surprises when switching bullet and powder combinations. The cartridge is very predictable. The indications are the Marlin 336 will have no trouble with the conversion. Certainly others sunch as Ron Carmichael (SP?) had no difficulty with the conversion.
Experimentors such as forum member Greg Mushial have barreled the Marlin 336 to all manner of high intensity cartridges. Greg has worked with the .450 Alaskan on the 336 action without difficulty. Greg, Used should post your picture!
On the other hand, smaller bore cartridges such as the .307 Winchester have given me a few surprises on warm days with certain powder and bullet combinations. It could be that an Improved cartridge shape such as used by Layne Simpson with his 7mm STE would be an advantage. It is a matter of expansion ration and the .35 calibers have the advantage here. The only thing at risk is a barrel and they are not terribly expensive.

I am a duffer compare to some guys on this board! i need to get busy!

I cannot change the pressure rateing of the reciever.

The indications are the Marlin 336 will have no trouble with the conversion. Certainly others sunch as Ron Carmichael (SP?) had no difficulty with the conversion.

Experimentors such as forum member Greg Mushial have barreled the Marlin 336 to all manner of high intensity cartridges. Greg has worked with the .450 Alaskan on the 336 action without difficulty. Greg, Used should post your picture!


William,

Again, forgive my ignorance....are you saying that the pressure rating of the 336 action/receiver is the same for all 336 Marlins, irrespective of the caliber it is chambered for? I.E., that the 336 action is standard/identical for all Marlins including the big bores? I take your point that others have made conversions to other calibers before without ill effect.

Also, do you know what Greg's 336 was chambered for prior to switching to the .450 Alaskan?

Appreciate your time and previous responses. Incidentally, I've done some searching on the web, and have turned up little regarding any quantified specifications on the pressure rating of the Marlin 336 action. And of course, in this litigious society we have today, it is no surprise that Marlin states on their websites, that they do not make any recommendations regarding reloading. I may just have to go do some basic research on this...cause it's tickling my curiosity.

- GL

"are you saying that the pressure rating of the 336 action/receiver is the same for all 336 Marlins, irrespective of the caliber it is chambered for?

No. I cannot say that. Below is a link to a very insiteful article by Joe at Real Guns. Take a look at it.
What I am sayins that my experience with the Marlin 336, which is not as much as others on this board, is that I do not anticipate a problem with the conversion of the Marlin 336 -.35 Remington to .356. A friend had a Marlin 336 bored out to .44 caliber and chambered for the .444 cartidge before brass was available for the cartridge. He had no trouble. I have had no trouble with my Marlin chambered for .30-30AI. With careful loading I do not expect any problems with a Marlin chambered for .356.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

"Also, do you know what Greg's 336 was chambered for prior to switching to the .450 Alaskan?"

Watching Gregs posts indicates he has had several barrels on this rifle. Greg is a careful handloader and does notseek highest velocities in most of his loading, but he is looking at the full range of velocity for each cartridge. If I remeber correctly the .450 Alaskan took out a tooth or two!

Thanks for your insight and the link Slim. :)

- Gringo Loco