Comment on this Open Sight article:

.45-70 Pile-Drivers! (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21)

Marshall,
The link takes us to "The Sportsman's Bible". Not sure if that was your intention or if you have a 45/70 article prepared.

Good deal...more weight...big straight case just seems to be better at driving heavy bullets than light ones.

Think I may have to re-think my BP only 45-70 status.

Thanks Dave, the link's fixed.... just got carried away trying to get things formatted properly!

God bless,

Outstanding bullet Marshall! Guess I'm going to need to try it in my 450 Marlin...

Hmmmmmm....................

My 1895LTD1 just might have to try a few with the H4895 (have lots of it on hand) and see if my shoulder is up to 525 gr PILE DRIVERS!!!!

I figure they might be just the ticket for some of the boars I've been capturing with my trail camera!

Hey Marshall...

Would you verify the H4895 load? My RSI software indicates that the load is compressed to 144%!!!

Michael,

Many thanks for the catch! Guess that's what happens when I am typing late. The data for the 4895 loads should read 52.5 grains! Indeed a typo.

The chart in the article has now been amended to reflect this correction, and last night I added some photos of the first critter hammered with the Pile Driver bullet!

Thanks for the catch! And yes, it is quite a peice of lead for the .45-70 and .450 Marlin!

God Bless

Wow! That's quite a critter..... congrats, Matt!

Like MikeG said... WOW! Great trophy Matt. Great work on your part Marshall!

Thanks gents - I can't say enough good about this big 525 for those of us that enjoy such slugs! I wanted a 500 grain plus slug for this hunt but was not happy with what I was finding out there for designs, as most were really more target style bullets rather than broad-meplat hunting designs. Or, for the few broader ones I did find many would not chamber well in my relatively short-throated Sharps without deep seating past the crimp groove. Fortunately, a call with Marshall revealed him coming out with this beauty at just the right time to develop some good loads (mostly with 4198 and 3031) and be the first to try it out on a large critter. The fact that it shoots quite well in my Shiloh Sharps is an added, but really not unexpected bonus! I'm happy to see it finally made it to the Beartooth "storefront".

Great stuff as usual from Marshall - I took my first deer with a handgun over 10 years ago with a Beartooth slug, and I'm happy to also report I've been using them ever since!


Matt

Marshall,

EXCELLENT! Finally a heavy bullet with a properly designed meplat! The big flat meplat is the key to any cast hunting bullet. I'd even go so far as to say for any medium to big hunting bullet period based on my personal experience comparing pointed, RN and FN bullets of equal weight over the same exact load in the same gun. The FN's will make a larger wound channel every time.

Since I rarely hunt with smokeless anymore, I'd really like to see these offered in a flat base made from 30:1 lead/tin alloy, they'll surely be the ticket for the BP loading in my highwall.

Hmmmmmm....................

My 1895LTD1 just might have to try a few with the H4895 (have lots of it on hand) and see if my shoulder is up to 525 gr PILE DRIVERS!!!!



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Kdub:

I am Marlin 1895 (45-70) shooter myself, and I would be very interested in hearing your feedback on the H4895 loads with the 525 grainers. There is a load prescribed by the author on using H4895 @ 52.6 grains for obtainable velocities of 1800 f.p.s. To my knowledge, this is the only data available for handloading the 525's. Please let me know what you find out.

Thank you,

Joe

Marshall

Well done ..

The 525 Grain .. Pile Driver seems to be the answer for the 45/70
For over 40 years i have been making jacketed Bullet's and
it seems to me that you have hit on the right combo/ for weight
and design with the Pile Driver.

I should let you know that there are alot of us that own bullet compays that are now green with envy.

So i hope you don't mind if we start talking behind your back :D


PA Bullet's

Marshall

Well done ..

The 525 Grain .. Pile Driver seems to be the answer for the 45/70
For over 40 years i have been making jacketed Bullet's and
it seems to me that you have hit on the right combo/ for weight
and design with the Pile Driver.

I should let you know that there are alot of us that own bullet compays that are now green with envy.

So i hope you don't mind if we start talking behind your back :D


PA Bullet's

Thanks so much for the encouraging words! The field reports are beginning to trickle in this year already, and the accuracy and sheer terminal thump of this bullet are amazing!

Hey, talking behind my back is fine..... so long as you share with us here too! :D Thanks again!

God bless,

Is there a load that I could use in my Uberti high wall?Something in the area of 28000c.u.p.?

Great bullet Marshall! I've been shooting .45-70s for about 40 years, and have to say this is THE bullet as far as I'm concerned. Best penetration of ANYTHING I have ever fired. I'll be buying more.

Great story...

I have bought and been loading the Pile-Drivers in my Marlin 1895GS rifle for sometime now my load gives me 1650fps at 10' from the muzzle.

I haven't shot any big game with this bullet yet but did have an experience that in a way I basically put my life on the line depending on the performance of this bullet.

On June 1 2008 @ app 9:15pm I shot an app 1000lbs interior mountain grizzly in Northern British Columbia with my 375RUM with 300gr Partitions the distance was app 230 to 250 yards.

About 20 minutes later we got to the spot that the bear ran into the thick bush and after only going about 10 yards into the thick stuff and due to how late it was we decided to stop and come back in the morning.

When we returned early the next morning I had my Marlin 1895GS loaded with 5 rounds of the Beartooth Pile-Drivers and my son had a short barreled 12 gauge 870 shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs.

Along with our dog we started to trail the grizzly the bush was so thick that it was almost impossible to see my son who was only 8 - 10 yards from me and if we were lucky we could see up to 20 yards thru little windows in the bush.

Fortunately after only 75 yards we came onto the grizzly laying on it's back my shot the evening before had been as good as I could have made it and resulted in both lungs being destroyed and the off side front leg turned into a useless mess.

What made it so easy to go in after this bear for me was my total faith in the Pile-Driver bullets design and the smooth functioning that I have with it in my Marlin.

Thanks Marshall for the peace of mind that you gave me in this situation.

CC

Here is a pic of the bear the size of the bear is deceptive in the picture though it actually measures app 8' from nose to tail and if it were to stand up on it's hind legs it would stand app 11 1/2' tall.

You can see a couple of the Pile-Drivers on the butt stock of the rifle. :D

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Ice_Cream_with_Jaiden_Grizzly_Bear_Pic_s_June_2_20 08_047.jpg

Nice kill, congratulations!

Hi

I bought a bunch of 525 WLNGC pile drivers for my 45-70 Marlin 1895GS. I am going to use RL7 powder to load some up.

I recently bought a copy of QuickLOAD, and today I worked up a theoretical load:

Caliber: 45-70 Government (SAAMI)
COAL: 2.550"
Case length: 2.105"
Seating depth: 0.835"
Bullet length: 1.280"
Barrel: 18.0"
Bullet diameter: .458"

Powder charge: 44.3 grains Alliant Reloader 7 (per the load data published by Marshall in the main article)

The max chamber pressure according to QuickLoad shows 73,000+ PSI. This is over twice the SAAMI spec for 45-70. Now I know that the 1895GS will handle more than SAAMI spec, but will it truly handle this much pressure?

If you seat the bullet farther up the case, say to a COAL of 2.900" like you can do when shooting out of a single-shot rifle, the pressure drops to 42,000PSI, which I would be much more willing to shoot. Problem is, with the lever action guns, a 2.900" COAL is probably not going to feed well.

Maybe I'm just a noob at Quickload. I compared some of the recipies in Lyman's 48th edition with the QL Lyman bullet data. I didn't see an exact match between Lyman's recipes and the QL estimates on pressures, it was pretty close on the muzzle velocity.

Update-- the authors state in the QL readme file that "In certain small-caliber cartridges, those types with relatively small combustion chambers and in some big-bore cartridges, those types with almost cylindrical cases (which often require the same types of propellant), QuickLOAD often significantly deviates from suggested published reloading data. ... (Candidate cartridges include the following and similar chamberings: 45-70 Government, .458 Win Mag, .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine, .416 Rem Mag, and all the old Nitro Express cartridges.) ... To correct predictions is possible to enter a somewhat bigger cartridge case volume, compared to what actually exists. This causes a corrective effect. For example, in the .416 Rem Mag, misrepresenting case capacity about +7% often results in good correspondence with published loading data."

Aha, so we can expect QL to overestimatethe pressure and MV of the 45-70. I will adjust my case volume and/or powder profile to match the Lyman data for known Lyman cast 500+ grain bullets and RL7, then see how it goes. This should allow me to get a better estimate of the pressures with a lower bullet seating depth. It's likely it won't be 73,000 PSI -- probably more on the order of 50 kPSI with the 44 grains of RL7.

Wish I'd seen that readme file before purchasing QL! I wonder if the online reviews for the QL software were based on bottleneck rifle or handgun load comparisons. Oh well, I guess I can still use it for estimating my handgun loads. Seems to match that data pretty well.

Oh what I wouldn't give for a good lab with all the ballistic pressure testing equipment.

See attached screenshot for the uncorrected QL estimate.

What the software is showing you is the number of variables that influence actual pressure and velocity results. It's a real-world issue as each manufacturer's case has a different volume, and the same charge will produce different pressures.

This is why it's necessary to back off of the published load by ten percent and find out the actual results in your guns. For example, I backed off of the Marshall's published H322 load for the 45/70 PileDriver and came up with a 39g powder charge.

This charge has been tested in numerous rifles and hand guns with great results. I've chronoed the load from barrels ranging from ten inches to thirty-two inches. I've never advanced the powder charge toward the published max because of the spectacular results I get with my starting load.

As another example I loaded some 425g piledriverJr rounds to various steps and chronoed the results. The velocities I was getting informed me that I don't want to use the max loads in my Marlin, but they are perfectly suited to my H&R Buffalo Classic single shot and my Browning 1886, a much stronger action in the range of Ruger No 1s...

Only pressure equipment for each gun will inform you of the pressures in that gun. It's necessary to extrapolate data, and this is why we download and test and measure and slowly develop loads. And as I've pointed out, loads perfectly suitable for some guns are not suitable for every gun.

As far as software predictions are concerned, I'm very doubtful that they are accurate unless customized by actual pressure data as Ranch Dog's data illustrates...

Hope this is helpful..,

Grizz

Grizz

Thanks for the very thorough reply.

In fact, I did get a response from the people at Neconos (who sell QuickLoad). I called Ed Dillon there today and he told me about the 7% case capacity tweak that needs to be applied when calculating the pressure with straight-walled cases like 45-70. QL was in fact originally designed to simulate loads for bottleneck cases like the .308.

At lunch, I went home and played with QL some more. I adjusted the case capacity to +7%, and then compared some loads based on the QL Lyman bullet data with actual load data recipes from the Lyman 48th edition reloading handbook, using several different powder profiles. The QL estimates are now only a few percent off of the Lyman data, which is good enough for me to get some ballpark figures.

I plugged in my Beartooth 525grain WLNGC bullet again, at the 2.550 COAL, but the pressure still shows 56k PSI (which is about what I figured the adjusted value would be in my previous post).

So I'm going to do like you did with your H322 loads, and start my RL-7 load down at about 35-38 grains @ 2.550 COAL, and chrony and check for signs of pressure on them. I'm sure the 44 grain load would work well at safe pressure in a single-shot action that could handle a 2.9+" COAL, but the Marlin just won't chamber that long.

Well I just shot 5 rounds of the piledriver loaded with 34.5 grains of RL7. While it sure demonstrated some serious knockdown power on car battery-sized concrete blocks, the recoil was nothing like I expected. Let's just say there would be absolutely no flinch factor with this particular load. My M44 Mosin Nagant with 182gr heavy ball FMJ ammo kicks as hard. Course it's pushing them smaller bullets at 2000fps, but it's a heavier gun.

I'm still waiting for the new RCBS chrony to come out, so I'm chrony-less for the moment. Based on Quickload adjusted for straight-walled cases (+7% case volume), the MV should have been around 1450fps out of an 18" barrel. Estimated recoil was approx 30 ft/lb.

Cases show some bulging near the web, but primers are pretty round still.

I think I either need to bump up a few grains of RL7, or switch to one of the slower powders like H322. I hear that's a great powder for bigger 45-70 bullets like these.

MistaSpakuru,

I wish I has spotted your posts earlier. I am a long-time QuickLoad user. You have a couple of issues. One is the straight wall case estimating 7% add-on to case volume. That works pretty well at around 28,000 PSI and up. It does not work at lower pressures like CAS loads and .45 ACP loads of fast powders. For those the actual case volume comes much closer.

The other problem is that peak pressure depends on the volume the case expands to when firing, and not the resized volume of the case. Keep in mind that pressure test barrels, like those Lyman uses, have SAAMI minimum chambers that will be tighter than your chamber and will come closer to being accurate with a standard case volume than your gun likely will. For a bolt gun you need to measure the case water capacity of a fireformed case that comes from your chamber to get accurate predictions. Go to my file depository (http://www.drop.io/unclenick) and download the Excel file for instructions on determining case water capacity. That file is also compatible with the free open source Open Office Suite (http://www.openoffice.org/) program called Calc, if you don't have MS Excel?

The lever action gun poses yet an additional problem. The locking lug is at the rear of the bolt. When the chamber pressure rises, the bolt thrust pushes back on the lug which is bearing against the receiver, stretching the sides of the receiver back. A bolt gun with locking lugs up near the case head does not stretch back nearly as far. As a result, you see more case volume expansion with a lever gun during firing than with a bolt gun. It is not uncommon, as load pressures get very high, for the lever gun shooter to feel a kick in the lever on firing and find he cannot re-close the action on the fired case. That is because it was stretched back beyond the elastic limits of the brass and when the receiver steel springs back it actually compresses and partly sizes the case in the chamber, but just not 100%. This is the lever gun equivalent of a bolt gun's sticky bolt. The Marlin 1895 is more resistant than most to this, but Winchester lever guns chambered in .307 Winchester get a bad dose of it even at normal pressures for that cartridge. The other symptom you see is the case has grown significantly more than with lower pressure loads. M.L. McPherson has written on this extensively and would be worth your time to look up.

Bottom line is the case gets bigger during firing a lever gun than you can measure as fired water capacity because the receiver has partly squeezed the case back down to size. This explains why loads that look way too high in QuickLOAD turn out to be within tolerance in actual lever guns. It is also why chronograph readings of actual higher pressure load performance in lever guns will sometimes be several hundred fps lower than QuickLOAD predicts, but not so in a bolt gun in the same chambering. Your best bet with a lever gun is to learn to read pressure signs well. The deluxe approach is to buy an RSI Pressure Trace (http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm) instrument and learn to measure pressures. You can then develop a curve for your gun showing how result error increases with pressure, and then use QuickLOAD to predict the fixed chamber size pressure and adjust case volume to get matching actual pressures to your readings. With that data you can chart how a predicted peak pressure will err.

A word of warning about that kind of mathematical game is that results will change with components, brass in particular and may even change some as brass work-hardens with re-use. You would want to repeat the experiment with several different powder and bullet combinations to be sure you'd correctly identified the compensation trend line.

A couple of additional hints with QuickLOAD: Measure your bore dimensions and use the Cartridge Data window (click on the button with the case and caliper icon) and in the middle of it use the bore cross-sectional area button to insert your actual bore dimensions and calculate your bore's cross-sectional area. That improves result accuracy. Click on the options and select to setup long barrel friction for the big bore straight wall case chamberings. It affects them with a lot shorter barrel than it does a high speed bottleneck case. It will default to the start pressure. Leave it there unless you see results to the contrary on your chronograph. It helps tune things for you. Finally, read this white paper (http://www.the-long-family.com/Tuning%20QL%20to%20achieve%20best%20results.pdf) by Chris Long on tuning QuickLOAD to your actual gun using a chronograph. Chris Long's whole site (http://www.the-long-family.com/) and optimum barrel time theory are worth a read, too.