Hi,

In my hunt for higher performance capabilities of the .357 magnum, I'm thinking about a .357 maximum. Can you all help with feedback?

What case is necked down for this? I've never necked down a case, but would be willing to buy a case trimmer, if that's what I need.

Will the cases last as long (if not loaded too hot for their size) as a "normal" case?

Will the resulting cartridge case be "straight-walled" like the .357 magnum so that I can use the same dies (adjusted for the increased length, of course)?

Is there a down-side to this plan of attack?

Thanks for your help,

1x2

It doesn't come from another case. You buy .357 Max cases.

My Hornady .357 dies are labeled ".38 / .357 mag / .357 Max".

Other than buying less common cases, and more powder, I don't see a downside. In fact I think that one of these in a smaller lever gun would be neat!

To start with if you are going with a lever gun the best bet is to research for a firearm. The next logical step is to buy some brass as the availability is sometimes hard to come by.

Super-hot magnums of this class exhibit phenomenal velocities and substantial energy characteristics. Flame cutting properties of such rounds can produce accelerated barrel and top strap erosion in revolvers. While some insist on advocating the .357 Maximum, problems associated with the cartridge resulted in rapid decline of its short lived popularity.

Discussion:
Sixguns.com (http://www.sixguns.com/range/beyondthe44.htm)

Cartridge diagram:

Handloads.com (http://www.handloads.com/images/cartridge/357max.htm)

Approach this cartridge with careful thought.

Viewed from the perspective of its original purpose as a single action revolver round, the .357 Maximum held the promise of being a performance envelope extending contribution. This role has since been surpassed by newer and far more successful revolver chamberings. When re-examined in the context of Contenders and rifle applications, the .357 Maximum is is just another of countless cartridge choices, including all sorts of superior bottleneck rounds. Thus, in light of its originally intended application, the .357 Maximum was essentialy a major flop.

Bob

Aside from the aforementioned top strap flame cutting associated with revolvers it is an excellent round in a Contender or even a Handi-rifle. As was mentioned standard 38 sp. / 357 mag dies work for reloading, you can buy brass albeit from Remington. I have a .357 max carbine and it is just a fun gun to shot. Powerful enough for most deer and easy to work with. From most 180 gr. bullets I can get around 2000 fps, 200 gr. bullets 1800 plus

Thanks, folks! This is Excellent! Thank you very much!

Armalube, many thanks for the links. Really interesting article; it's really good news.

skb, thank you for the velocity and bullet data. Do you think you're "really stretching the envelope" to get the 2,000 fps with this cartridge? Do you shoot all jacketed, or do you also shoot lead bullets?

Thank you, thank you,

1x2

I have a 21" TC barrel in .357 Max that is a real shooter. Great fun.
If you will look back at older magazines you will see that early on, the gunwriters of the day were not Silhouette oriented and they simply did not know what to do with the cartridge. Early G&A tests of the Ruger Maximum show the writers loading 125 grain bullets with ball powders and trying for ultra high velocity. There are also pictures of early top strap flame cutting. Those who were "in the know" immediatly tried to inform the gunwriters and the public about what the cartridge was and what it was designed to do, but the real damage was already done.
The .357 Maximum was designed from the outset as a heavy bullet silhouette (and a secondary hunting role) cartridge. Treated this way from the begining the cartridge would have had a much different history.

This is my favorite cartridge in the contender platform, .223 runs a close second.

SKB2706's velocities are not pushing the envelope at all. I can get close to 2000fps out of the 14" tube with a Hornady 180gr SSP, it doesn't take much powder space.

I primarily shoot 200gr lead FPGC, SAECO #356. I have never had any trouble finding brass for this from the mail order places, but you typically won't find much of it in local shops. I'm trying out a new set of Hornady dies, but have been using RBCS .357 carbide dies for many years to load it. It's a great shooter to 200 yards in the TC. Note that the standard bullet seating stem in many die sets is NOT useful for the Hornady 180gr SSP.

In the Contender, unless you go to a massivley larger casing(.35x444), you will get little performance gain using a bottleneck casing. A .35 Rem or .357 Herret are running full steam to surpass it by insignifigant levels in a 14" barrel. All this with no case lube and one case trim when the cases are new. Pretty hard to beat. Especially when the brass is usually around $11-13/100 and less in bulk.

I have a 21" TC barrel in .357 Max that is a real shooter. Great fun.
If you will look back at older magazines you will see that early on, the gunwriters of the day were not Silhouette oriented and they simply did not know what to do with the cartridge. Early G&A tests of the Ruger Maximum show the writers loading 125 grain bullets with ball powders and trying for ultra high velocity. There are also pictures of early top strap flame cutting. Those who were "in the know" immediatly tried to inform the gunwriters and the public about what the cartridge was and what it was designed to do, but the real damage was already done.
The .357 Maximum was designed from the outset as a heavy bullet silhouette (and a secondary hunting role) cartridge. Treated this way from the begining the cartridge would have had a much different history.

See any lesson there for the .460SW?

In a carbine length barrel 2000 fps is very doable w/180 gr. jacketed bullets. In fact I am sure exceeding this mark would be no risk. My favorite bullets for the max are the 180 gr Hornady SSP, 200 gr. Sierra RN and for cast I use the most excellent Beartooth 185 gr. FN hardcast.
My barrel is a VVCG Shilen blank 1-14 twist 21". I won't tell you how accurate it is....I will say I have used it to shoot prairie dogs and ...within its range limitation 200 yds. or so it is very effective.

I have a 10" Contender barrel in .357 Mag that I had reamed out to .357 Max. Using WW 296 and 180 gr Nosler Partitions or 180 gr Hornady XTP's, I'm getting just under 1700 fps. Using iron sights I can shoot into 2" at 50 yards and just over 4" at 100 yards from a sandbag rest. Recoil is alot more manageable than the same gun/barrel length in .44 Mag. I believe that the problem in a levergun would be COAL, at least in the Marlin 1894 series. I think that the .357 Max is a great cartridge that will give you good accuracy and plenty of power for deer size game.

If you're just looking for that illusive 1000 ft pounds of energy, the standard 22" .357 Mag Handi rifle will shoot .360 DWs. I load 11.0 gr 800X, CCI 550, 180 gr XTP/HP (seated in the top cannelure) in 360 brass for 1645 fps at 15' and a ME of 1081 ft pounds. It will shoot faster with Lil'Gun and H4227, but I didn't get as good of accuracy with them. This load shoots around 1" at 100 yards.

The Handi rifle also allows use of 180 gr SSP bullets and others of the pointed variety.

The Beartooth 250 gr LFNGC will produce 1200 fps out of 357 brass using 7.5 gr 800X and CCI 400, but the ME is only 796 ft pounds.

I forgot to add, Midway has 357 Max brass and Starline .360 DW brass. The 357 Max is cheaper. You can shoot .360 DW in a Max chamber as well as .38 Special and .357 Mag. The .357 Mag brass is 1.29", .360 DW is 1.42" and the Max is 1.60".

Had a 10 in Contender barrel for the 357 max. Easy to load and was accurate. I think the 180 gr Hornandy XTP was designed for this round and should be a good deer getter. MIne would shoot into an inch and a half at 100 yrd with a scope and rest.

This is sounding better and better. I can plink with .357mags and be more serious with the maximums. I didn't see a couple weeks ago where Midway had the max. brass, that's good to know, thanks. This thing seriously sounds like fun, and not overly difficult- we move on to contemplate hardware venues....

Thanks again!

1x2

1X2, you have reminded me of wanting a 357 Max when the cartridge first came out. I remember thinking of what a great shooter it would be but like most, I got scared off by the gun scribes and experts of the day when the flame cutting issue hit print. I would think it still has good potential but I didn't know any manufacturer was chambering anything for the Max. Who is building guns in this caliber? I noticed the Contender mentioned but can't find the cartridge listed as an offering from TC. Are we talking custom barrels for the TC or is the Max making a comeback? At any rate, thanks for reminding me about a cartridge that never really had a chance to prove it's worth.

By the way, were Ruger and Dan Wesson the only companies building revolvers for the 357 Max?

luberjak,
The TC custom shop makes barrels for it. www.foxridgeoutfitters.com

The barrels are not ourageously expensive, basicallly just a TC barrel but you get to have it your way. You can get them in whatever length and finish you want, Contender/G2 or Encore.

Dan Wesson was purchased by CZ and is not currently making revolvers, only pistols, but they intend to return to production soon.

I believe there where some Handi-Rifles chambered for it, but I'm not sure on that.

If anyone ever builds one of these on a Marlin or Winchester lever action I would really like to hear how it turned out and the expense involved.

A Dakota mini Sharps or custom Ruger #1 would be interesting, very interesting.

Thanks KciH. The Contender seems like an ideal choice for the 357 Max. I think my wish list just gained an entry. And thanks for the update on Dan Wesson. I hadn't heard about CZ taking them over.

Well, alright! Welcome "back" to a cartridge I'm just starting to fall in love with, lumberjak. Gotta be one of the greatest things is forums like this and the greatest people who pop in and help out pilgrims (me) who are discovering what some of you have been enjoying and snickering about for years, and you have the patience to periodically and individually re-explain the ins and outs and pros and cons and what works for you and what doesn't- way cool.

I'm dreamin' of a ---- levergun in .357 max. I know from other good guys out there that there's reamers to run the .357mag out to .357max. I think the next step is to see if the COAL will navigate the angle from the loading gate into the mag tube. I believe it will eject, but the timing of the carrier and whether the carrier needs an angle change to carry up and chamber. A guy needs some max dummy rounds and a 357mag levergun to start testing. Even better if it was (unfortunately) wrecked and had no barrel, or one that needed a new bbl anyway which could be removed for testing.

kciH, I know a fellow shooter who bought one of the few .357 ruger #1s they put out and had it rechambered to .357 max. He says it's an awesome shooter, and I've watched him shoot .357mags through it indoors, albeit at only 50 ft.- tiny offhand groups. He loves it. I really like what I've seen of the Dakota's (beaucoup bucks) but never owned one; maybe E.A. Brown would also chamber their falling block in this caliber. I'm thinking I'd really like to chase the levergun idea first.

1x2

1x2,
just keep in mind that you'll need a full length action lever gun for this. No Win M92's or Marlin 94's.

I'd really love to have one of the #1's in .357 rechambered. Seems as though the only ones I have ever seen where the California Highway Patrol commemoratives...which people want a premium for...god knows why.

quote "I think the next step is to see if the COAL will navigate the angle from the loading gate into the mag tube. I believe it will eject, but the timing of the carrier and whether the carrier needs an angle change to carry up and chamber. A guy needs some max dummy rounds and a 357mag levergun to start testing. Even better if it was (unfortunately) wrecked and had no barrel, or one that needed a new bbl anyway which could be removed for testing."



I would be willing to "pony up" the sacrificial dummy .357 max round for trials.

Several of the guys over at Graybeard's NEF section have reamed their 357 mags to max. They say it's about 5-10 minutes worth of hand reaming with lots of cutting oil.

Leftoverdj has a reamer he will rent out for like $15 and shipping costs

I had thought about reaming mine, but just figure I would use a barrel chambered for something bigger, like 45-70, instead.

just keep in mind that you'll need a full length action lever gun for this. No Win M92's or Marlin 94's.

kci,

Is the bolt on the revolver cartridge models for-sure too short? Rossi/Pumas, Marlins, and Winnies?

I think the Henry Golden Boy .357 loads from the muzzle, like a .22LR- that might be an option if the only trouble is loading through the loading gate.

A levergun chambered for .357 would be much easier than rebarreling or reboring a Marlin 336, for instance.

I've read over and over again, though maybe it's just an old wive's tale, that a reason why some winnies don't cycle revolver ammo well is that Winchester built the revolver model 94s based on their shouldered cartridge version of the rifle- if true, it indicates to me that there might be enough room for the 357max cartridge. What do we think?

Hi Paul, I've heard that single-shots are not that tough to ream- we're lookin' for this in a levergun!

1x2

1x2,
I'm not sure, I've never done the exact measurements, but I am pretty certain of it. With the M92 there is no way that I can see it working, but I'm not that knowledgable on what can be done with the actions. It would seem to me that a M94 in .357 would be the logical starting point, but you're going to have to talk to a lever-gunsmith to find any real answers.