I was thinkin about the evolution , or de-evolution for you CAS shooters, of the deer cartridge. With todays super-magnums and laser like trajectories, the older cartridges have fallen to the way side. Now with these magnums, the opinions of adequate deer cartridges have become skewwed. What was life like before the 300RUM and Weatherbys? Wasn't there a time when the 30-30, 32WS, 40-82, 38-40, 44-40 and 32-40s were more than enough to feel confident in the woods. Back then a 45-70, with blackpowder not doubt, was a buffalo cartridge. Today it would be scoffed at in some circles as a deer cartridge with such loadings. How could such a reliable killer of bear and buffalos be down-graded to a marginal bear gun. Let the guide carry the 375H&H just in case. I myself embrace the "vintage" cartridges and can never see myself up-grading or rather up-dating. I don't want to stomp on any toes, but doesn't these new cartridges give hunters a sense of sniper-fever? Do these new cartridges teach hunters to be more of a shooter and less of a hunter? Lets revive the older cartridges and de-evolve a little, don't get caught up in the hype of 4000fps. Gentlemen go out and buy an old Model 94 and have a vintage hunting day. But be careful, you may never view hunting again the same.


Just my thoughts spilled out

Bill

Why not just go back to sticks and rocks?

Personally, I like my 338, but I also like my 30 WCF. I do know when I'm in bear country I'd rather have my 338 instead of the 30 WCF. It isn't up to peer pressure or anything else to teach people hunt responsibily, it is an ethical question each has to answer for himself/herself, and for the teacher (father, brother, uncle, mother, whatever) to help instill in the new hunters.

Blaming magnum cartridges for unethical hunting is the wrong path to take. Just because the older, short range cartridges are right at home in the thickets doesn't mean those that hunt more wide open places or bigger game should give up the advances that make us more effective.

You make an excellent point, and I love the old guns too,

But hunting has changed since the 1900's and it ain't just the cartridges and guns.

Despite the proliferation of nuisance whitetails, there's alot less game and a lot more hunting pressure than there was 100 years ago. Or even 30 years ago out west.

And now with the ban on hunting bear and cougar w/ dogs were giving up even more of our elk and mule deer to these predators every year.

Game regs limit what can be harvested so some could argue that if they only see a legally shootable animal once every three years, they **** sure want their shot to take it down hard and fast.

I hunt an area that has produced mulies and elk for generations, but game has gotten very scarce in the last 5 years and seasons seem to be set for the archers and muzzleloaders benefit. The modern rifle hunters get the dregs of the season between the rut and the onset of winter.

I haven't seen a legal elk since 2001...maybe I need to relocate, but I gotta say I'll take my 300 wsm over a 30-30 these days in case I get a shot over 150 yards.

I hoped that this post wouldn't step on any toes, but it appears to have already with only 2 responses. Remember that the primary game that I am talking about is deer, not bear or elk. I only used the 45-70 as an example for killing power. I am not sure how much hunting has really changed? A man, a gun, and nature. Being in WV I'm not sure how hunting with dogs for cougars and bears affects adequate game cartridges? Why does hunting pressure force one to use a super-magnum to kill deer? Longer shots? But anyways, this post was simply about the deteriorating opinion of killing power of the vinatge cartridges.

Bill

Bill ...

I think the difference may lie inbetween the lines. More specifically, I'll use computers as an example. When the first personal computers came out, everyone freaked... how could a machine calculate things so quickly? Then, slowly but surely, we got used to it... and they improved computers ... and then next "screamin demon" came along, and it wow'd everyone with how fast it was ... Well, that cycle has continued, and computers that were once so unbelievably fast are now so slow you wouldnt give them to a turtle to use!

It is my humble opinion that the same thing has, in a way, happened with a lot of cartridges. Why would I want to carry a heavy octagon bbl 45-70 around that only has limited range when I can carry a "modern" cartridge in a rifle that handles the same or better, and offers me more opportunity to bag my game? Unless you are really looking to challenge yourself more than most ... and unless you care more about the challenge than bagging the game you paid so much for the opportunity to bag (ie: hunting cost, tag cost, transportation and/or lease fees, camo clothing, bullets, rifle, scope, etc.) ... well then, you're going to make dang sure you get that deer, even if the only one you see is 300+ yards away!

Seriously ... if the 30-30 and 45-70 worked 'back then' ... they will still work now. It's not like the deer have developed armor these days... it's just simply that there is more to be had with many modern cartridges than with the older ones ... Technology has a way of providing us with better products ... that's life. If you enjoy hunting with your older cartridges in older rifles ... great! But dont get angry with the 18yr old that has the newest 300 'wizzum' in a new-fangled A-Bolt w/ a BOSS and a fiberglass stock and a scope with an illuminated reticle ... that's HIS choice. You both get to choose your way. Be happy about what YOU do ... don't worry about the other people so much that it lessens your pleasure.

ps. you didnt step on my toes ... I hunt with traditional chamberings in traditional guns ... a CZ 550 blued steel mauser bolt action and walnut stocked .30-06... a Marlin 30-30 with no checkering on the wood ... I like it that way.... and I could care less who else is using whatever ... I'm happy with my decisions.

Sure didn't step on my toes. I may have missed your point so I could go into one of my favorite rants against current game management by voter initiative.

I guess ammo's like any other developing technology. My folks had some great 78 records, but it's tough to compare to a CD. Technology progresses and yesterday's successes are ho hum today. The 30-30 was a techno leap at the time and sure beat hunting w/ a muzzleloader or single shot 45-70.

There's sure a lot to appreciate about the older rigs, so you won't hear me complain about you hunting w/ a 100 year old cartridge as long as you leave the bayonet off.

Leverite

While I prefer to hunt with the old guns and calibers (and having pulled the trigger on game with anything else in the last 3 years) do realize that it's just a personal preference that linked to the close up /thick cover hunting I've come to prefer. Some people collect barbed wire....others spend theiur time gardening...and I like to hunt with old guns in obsolete calibers.

I do not think they are "better"...do think that most of the old calibers are at their best with cast bullets, and that if that's your prference, then you are not at a serious disadvantage over modern shooters using cast bullets.

Local hunting hasn't just changed over the last 100years, it's drastically changed over the last 20 years. There is MORE opportunity for long shots than before (as there is a LOT more deforested land) and a lot less time spent in the field; we don't usually have that kind of time....if you only count hunting by the meat scale, then the old guns are probably not for you.
-------
Wait...I lied...killed game last year with a .401WSL, and that one dates to 1910, so it's a little "modern".

Glad to see that people are beginning to understand what I meant to do by posting. I really like the computer analogy. Also I failed to think about the money some people invest in a quality hunt. Hunting is a great sport, try different things from time to time to spice it up . I once too was caught up in the velocity race, but something just gives me a greater satisfaction using termed "obsolete" cartridges. After I get comfortable with the vintage hunting I may go more primative with a flintlock. Heck even if you dont have time to hunt with vintage guns, get out and shot one sometime. Challenge yourself, I myself got tired of seeing the bullet always go where I put the crosshairs.

Bill

I enjoyed everyones comments and have become a leverhunter myself.

I received my American Hunter today with a picture of a Marlin 1895 on the cover with the by-line of "Deer Rifles, The Evolution of American Classics." They went on to call that Marlin and others "Classic Rifles Reincarnated". I haven't read it yet but basically I quess they've demotted the 1895GS to deer duty. Though outnumbered by models chambered in the 30-30 Winchester, the classic Marlin hunter is the 336 in 35 Remington and not the deep woods killer of elk and moose!

I like that modern cartridge, the .35 Rem!!! :D

Many hunters change from their youth to middle age. Perhaps starting out with a Winchester carbine but eventually hunting deer with a bolt action 30-06. Years pass, and the hunter realizes his scoped 30-06 makes the hunt "too easy". Archery, black powder, or hand cannons may seem more challenging to this hunter.

Some guys get hooked on these close distance weapons and never go back to the scoped 30-06.

In contrast, I never had a bad experience with the 30-30 carbines. My main upgrade has been telescopic sights. But still hunting the same places with the same short carbines of my youth. I like hunting very much the "old way".

Some of the old black powder cartridges were amazingly lethal. I once read about a market hunter of the 1890's in thumb area of Michigan. He killed and shipped over a 1,000 whitetailed deer. All shot with his 44-40 carbine.

Harry Caldwell, a Christian missionary to India was presented with a Savage 99 in 22 Hi Power chambering. Essentially 30-30 case necked down to 22 caliber and firing a long 70 grain jacketed bullet. Harry killed many man eating tigers with this rifle. Roy Chapman Andrews visited Harry in 1926 and critisized such a small bullet for such dangerous beasts. Harry was unconvinced. He remarked that the 303 Savage rifle Arthur Savage had originally given to him did not kill as well. I'm not making this up, you can research it yourself.

My point is that a careful hunter who is a good shot with his rifle will place that first all-important bullet in the right spot. Size of bullet before expansion is not as relevant as many people would suggest.
TR

Growing up in the mountains of CO we pretty much hunted the same way our fathers hunted. Didn't matter whether it was deer or elk or whatever else....my buddy used his Marlin 30-30 and I had a Win. Mod. 64 in 32 WS. We didn't know at the time that these were minimum....at least by the standards of the current forum experts for our purposes. We killed our quarry...not always with excellent marksmanship but we got the job done.
As I grew older I made that monumental decision to get a 'bigger gun' then of course the next go round 'an even bigger gun' ..........all the while thinking I was in some way improving my odds and extending my limits. Took my about twenty years to figure out that I had failed in my quest to do either. Now I am working my way back down the power ladder and finding I still get the job done and I am a whole lot more comfortable in the preparation and 'sighting in' than I was during my "magnum - itis" years.

Why would I want to carry a heavy octagon bbl 45-70 around that only has limited range when I can carry a "modern" cartridge in a rifle that handles the same or better, and offers me more opportunity to bag my game?

Let's see, those old heavy barreled 45-70's with the right load and right shooter can hold thier own quite well against any of the "new super imporved hi-tech magnums" of today.

Lest we all forget the "new super magnum improved hi-tech" chokes hyped as "mega space age advanced" back in the late 1980's were nothing more than re-invention of the wheel, or in this case, the choke...upon closer look these alleged super chokes are nothing more than "jug chokes" tha came about in muzzleloader times about 130 years prior to SKB, Browning and Ithaca who were the biggest hyper's of this allegedly "new" thing.

So, what is the distance limit on the 45-70? Seems as a lot of folks are still driving 400-500 grain cast lead slugs 1000 yards or more and doing so quite accurately as well. I know a lot of folks who have some of the new super magnums on hi-tech poly stocks and can only brag if they can put 3 rounds under 2" @ 100 yds let alone 400, 800 or a 1000.

I'm not stoping anyone's toes either, well maybe a little but it's not meant in an ugly way, just shedding a little light on this. I primarily hunt with flintlock but occasionally carry a BPCR and very extremely rarely something burning nitro. I also don't wear camo, climb trees or hide in a blind. I've sat in the woods and picked up camo-clad hunters as well as if they had complete blaze orange suits. Personally, I feel that 99% of the products hunters now carry into the woods are designed more to fool the hunter out of his cash as opposed to fooling the hunted into becoming dinner.

I'm not a full blown traditionalist hunter either but I firmly believe there is a lot more to the hunt than just bagging game, although that is a definite plus! I grew up in a family where the scoped 30-06, special clothes and such were the order of the hunting business. I just find it much more appealing now to squeeze the trigger on the flinter and place a perfect boiler room shot on a deer at 100 yards with a patced roundball and iron sights. I also find it more appealing shooting beautiful groups with BPCR at long ranges.

Then again there's the certain level of appeal that comes with putting a few hundred rounds down range from the M48 or 91/30 too!

To answer Billy's post... anything from 32-40 through the 45-70 is fine for deer and loaded with blackpowder and a bullet you cast yourself makes them all the better. Personally, I wouldn't think twice of carrying my .62 flinter on any hunt and would prefer it for a dream hunt... of course with the 45-70 highwall just in case the rain was too severe.

Modern stuff is great to some extent especially when hunting game of the two legged variety but one has to consider seriously its limitations and be prepared to toss it aside and be proficient with the old reliable iron sights in day or night.

Just rattling the cage a little with no offense intended. Just ask yourself, what really makes the hunt for you? Are the so-called "limitations" real or simply imagined as a manner of sales hype? Goes back to my thoughts on the short mags, if they are so dang good, why would you need a quick follow-up shot anyway since they are hyped as all powerful and all accurate? Given the hype, you should just about be able to stay home in front of the TV and still get a trophy buck.

Please don't take this out of context either, one must choose a round that is reasonable for the game being hunted as well. While the .22lr is more than capable of being mortal to an elephant, one cannot expect to purposely hunt elephants with it.

Someone looked up some articles written at the time the .30-06 was introduced. One hunter or gunwriter said the .30-06 killed deer about as well as the .40-65 Winchester.

Bye
Jack

I have a very nice 7mm/06 in my cabinet but since I shot a nice buck with my 94CB in .357 it is hard to pick up another rifle, unless it is one of the other lever guns I own.

HAve shoot black powder rifles at 1000, but that certainly doesn't make them 1000yard bhunting guns...perhaps if you nailed the critters feet to the ground, painted them black, cut all the grass/weeds arround them, and made sure they were 1000yards out (not 945yards or 1053 yards), I could dial them in and toss a 500gr. bulelt somewhere between the intake and the exhaust and make them fall down....but critters not hit in the right spot tend to get back up again and run....and I don't know of any 1000yard running boar competitions.

Spent a good amount of time seeing what the .22LR could do at 200yards...and if the wind is nearly perfect, a good match .22 can do some wonderful things ot at that range...but it don't make it a 200yard varminter.

Long range and low velocity is not a great combination...the old tiers did some wonderful work, but what choice did they have? We do have a choice, so if you intention if to lob bullets at animals way out there, best pick a modern rifle to do it with.

I think the older cartridges are fine if that's what you want to shoot or hunt with.Yes you may have to be alot closer to shoot at deer or elk, but I don't think that because I'm shooting a modern day cartridge make's me any less the hunter or does it replace the excitement of the hunt. I still get excited to this day when I hunt and it does not matter if I 'm using my 38-56 WCF or my 300 Ultra Mag. It's not about the gun it's about the love of the sport , kill or no kill. Just my take on the subject.

Hoeram :D

I think ... it's about the love of the sport , kill or no kill.


Precisely! That's my point from earlier when I simply said "Be happy about what YOU do ... don't worry about the other people so much that it lessens your pleasure." ...

What was said above holds true for any round and or rifle for that matter. Taking a shot beyond your capability, the capability of your rifle or the capability of your round is completely irresponsible no matter how you twist it.

Say you have a .338 ultra mag that you know will put lead on target at 800 yds in perfect conditions, 70 degrees F, sunny and no wind... now you find yourself with 25 Mph wind gusts with a light snow and 15 degrees F .... do you take the shot on the trophy mulie at 800 yds or let him walk away?

I've passed off many shots on game including what should have been an easy one on a whitetail buck at a mere 85 yds because I was not convinced I could place the PRB correctly from my .50 flinter thanks to the strong cross wind. Someone else got him a few minutes later after putting 5 rounds in his guts with a .243 then finishing him off with one to the head. This "hunter" took his first shot at less than 20 yds, last shot at 35 yds with a scoped rifle and still failed to place any of the rounds properly. At that range and with that rifle, there was no reason in the world why the first round could not have been to the head.

Same season, another "hunter" and his wife, perhaps related to the above one, managed to rapdily snap off nine or ten rounds at several deer. They took one home, left one lay not more than 10 feet from where it was shot through the boiler room, left another one to go about 100 yards with a high lung shot and another to go about 500 yds with a gut shot. Unfortunatey I did not know this slaughter took place or I would have recovered those deer they left lay to waste and definitely pressed charges with the game commission.

Sorry, bit off course but my point being that the bullet nor the rifle nor the scope make the shot, it must be a combination of all of these in addition to common sense, ethical choices and skill in the shooter.

I'm with some of the others in that it's my love of the outdoors why I hunt. I've taken enough deer that I enjoy just being out and watching the wildlife whether it be deer, birds or whatever else. I've passed on many smaller bucks as I know one of my younger brothers will take one and I will still have venison. However if that bruiser comes along... :D

Markkw, I know the feeling, unfortunately there are far too many "hunters" who are like this. Many seem to have huge problems knowing their and their guns' limitations and staying within them. An example is the "hunter" who doesn't shoot other than to maybe sight in his rifle. Some don't even do that. And then they try a 300 yard shot and wound an animal.

I appreciate thisthread;with contrasting ideas,without rancor.
My own hunting isrestricted to Whitetails in various Eastern mountain woodlands.
I started out with the venerable 30;06 springfield,and got my first few deer with it.Even as a green kid,I saw that I had much more gun then was needed.
I switched 'down'to the 39/40 Krag Springfield,which I made shorter and lighter for my use.I got one shot kills at 10 feet and 250 yards.Average distance was 50 yards.For my typeof hunting,it is every bit as good as the bigger 30'06.
Upon reflection,I realized that 90%of the deer that I got,could be taken with a 30/30 Win.I now hunt with the Win'94,in that caliber. I got 2 one shot kills so far,ad see noreason to use anything bigger.Be advised thai although I'm a Pothunter,I don't take any low percentage succwss shots.
FYI Another hunter in the same woods that I hunt uses various small caliber wildcats for the same deer.All of his groups are less then i minute of angle accuracy.He unts from a tree,and is one ofthe mostsuccessful hunters in our forest. You must adapt your gun to your hunting style.He does better because he IS better at it.The smaller cartridge is plenty powerful enough.A more powerulcartridge may be more comforting,but won't kill any better,
Frank

It's because most shooters have fallen for the advertisements and the push of the ad man nothing else.If the ad companies hid the origins of say the 30-30 and pushed it as a new super close range deer killer they would empty the shelves in nothing flat.

Glad to see that people are beginning to understand what I meant to do by posting. I really like the computer analogy. Also I failed to think about the money some people invest in a quality hunt. Hunting is a great sport, try different things from time to time to spice it up . I once too was caught up in the velocity race, but something just gives me a greater satisfaction using termed "obsolete" cartridges. After I get comfortable with the vintage hunting I may go more primative with a flintlock. Heck even if you dont have time to hunt with vintage guns, get out and shot one sometime. Challenge yourself, I myself got tired of seeing the bullet always go where I put the crosshairs.

Bill
Bill, I am really enjoying this. I have shot numerous deer in PA mostly with a 257 improved that is a tack driver. Out of close to 25 deer only two have been farther than 75 yds. I really enjoy and have faith in my old Mauser 257 improved. I have been raising a family for 20+ years and now that one is out of college and the last one in college I have more weekend etc. to myself and guess what I have been doing for the last year? I have dug out the old rifles in my collection and have been reloading and having a ball shooting them. I'm shooting a .32 Win, a .32Rem, a .35. Rem, a 45-70- trapdoor and several old 30-40 krags. I am using the original sights on most and reciever sights on several. I was in a panic when I first tried shooting them becase these old 55 yr old eyes just don't handle the old sights the way they did 30 years ago. But you know after practicing I have gotten much better and have the confidence I can carry one for deer hunting as long as I keep it within my limitations. I am looking forward to hunting deer this season with one of the old timers. Whether I shoot a deer with one won't really matter because I am still having a ball loding for them and shooting plates at the range with them.

Mike Buchanan,I to have a .32 spl, .35 rem, 30-30,.44 Mag.and 45-70, my most modern high speed center fire is my .270 Win. and a 30-06 sprfld.my rifle with the most kills is my Marlin 30-30 I've had for thirty three years .My toughest decision is which one of my Marlins to use for hunting that day.I have so much fun with the old ones that I have no use for any new wonder cartridges .My old cartridges do everything for me the gunwriters ''suggest'' that I need a new, short ,fat super magnum to do.I guess I'm just to ignorant and to old to know anything!Shootrj2003

Hey Kragman, I lurk over here between Pine Bush and Walker Valley. Nice to know someone is in my area.Shootrj2003

This is awesome. I thought I was alone in not buying into the hype of every new shell that comes out. Especially when the new cartridge is no better than an existing one. I might try this one this season as well, no camo, no sent-lock, no do-dads of any kind. (I don't recomd this on public land, every year we get our stories in the news of how a guy thought another guys head was a turkey.) Well again I'm glad I'm not the only one. Practice Practice Practice.

Bill