I just get my 5 round mag. in order to be legal for hunt here in florida but my question is can I get a deer or a hog whit may bushi .223 rem 50 gr. bullets ?

Legal in Texas as well, and modestly popular.

No question it'll kill small Florida deer... Hogs..... ah, I can't really recommend that. Sometimes they get mad :eek:

I have seen some hogs taken with the .223 .... I would strongly suggest the Winchester 64 grain PowerPoint load (recovered bullets have held together OK), or anything with a Barnes "X" or the 60 grain Partition. Other than that... it isn't an ideal hog cartridge, by any stretch. In fact for hogs, I'd rather have a magazine full of FMJs than typical softpoints (excluding what I've listed), which may not be legal to take hunting, anyway.

If you are going to take it hunting, either leave the hogs alone, or wait till you can get a good solid head/neck shot, and then give them another behind the ear before you grab a back leg with one hand, and a knife in the other.

I know in the south many use the 22 centerfires for deer hunting but personally I don't believe they should be used except by the most experienced hunters. Too much room for error and for the most part I think you're undergunned with the 223. Hogs, definately not as they have fat, grisle and wallow in mud which you may have to shoot through a dried layer of.

Legal in Arizona, also. Would be a suitable cartridge for our little Coues whitetail - if you could get close enough!

As MikeG suggests, the heavier bullets would work best, especially the Barnes or other heavy jacket soft points.

My father said that a lot of guys used 223's to hunt hogs in Georgia. All of their shots were in the forehead. Draw an X ears to the eyes and aim for the middle of it. It must have worked since they had some pork BBQ's. Obviously, you must be a good marksman and choose your shot carefully.

Otherwise, get a bigger gun and shoot for the vitals like most guys do.

amndouglas

Which you wouldn't, but it is legal and thare are hunters that have killed deer and hogs with the .223...one of two tyeps, the guy who can pass up all the offered shots but the "perfect" one, and the guy who shoots a lot of deer but only comes out of the woods with one.

Certainly do not encourgae the .223...and certainly not 50gr. varmint bullets on bigger game. Guess it has a place if you are in poor health, too febile to take the recoil, or are otherwise handicapped and can't shoot a more reasonable deer rifle.

Here it would be legal to hunt deer with a .22 Hornet (or any other .22 centerfire)...or a .25acp handgun from the way the laws are worded. Wish they'd change that.
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100% politically incorrect honest truth:

When I hear of a .223 shooter going after bigger game...1st though is "generous"; that the shooter has had an injury and can't stand any more recoil than that (have a buddy that is a heart transplant patient...he isn't allowyed much recoil). That's about the3 only good excuse for voiding the rules of good sportsmanship.

Second thought (assuming the first is not the case), "What is a healthy normal person doing with a .223...can someone be that recoil shy?".

Third is more a suspision...comes from the rapid fire echo you hear sometimes when hunting...some guy running through a 20round mag. double time...suspect that some of the .223 shooters plan of this kind of behavior.

Ho9wever way ti goes, either crip, whimp, or idiot....but I dgenerally do not think good thoughts when .223 shooters talk about medium and big game hunting.

Sorry...but it's the truth, and from talkign to other people who hunt the same areas as myself, am not alone in these thoughts.

If it is legal you certianly can hunt with a 223 and any bullets you want to. The question is it ethical? The 223 does not give enough energy to kill deer sized animals really well.

If your going to hunt game you plan to eat you owe it to the game to make clean kills. Unless shot placement is perfect your going to wound more game than you kill and Hogs can be tough animals. Lots of folks here on the forum use 444's, 35's and such to anchor them.

The 223 makes an ideal varmit rifle for small game up to including coyotes out to 300 yards, though I have seen yotes shot and not recovered with the 223. I've went to the 243 Winchester for varmits also.

See if you can find something from the 243 Winchester on up for deer hunting. You will like the results much better.

I've never figured out why some states allow guns that don't deliver the energy required to effectively kill big game.

Most states in the West have calibre and energy limits on big game rifles and pistols, but many eastern and southern states don't. They leave it to a hunter's common sense. Use yours and listen to the good advice of the folks on this forum.

Here in MT it's legal to shoot big game with a .223 Rem. Used to have a Sako sporter in .223 and killed a few muleys with it. I forget the particulars but I used either 55 or 60 grain Sierra softpoints. Both deer were under 100 yds and dropped on the spot. With both lungs destroyed.
A few years later tried the same shot again on a very nice muley buck, one of the larger bucks I've ever seen. Range was 50 yds and I aimed for the lungs. Hit a RIB and the bullet broke up on the outside. Deer ran off and what ensued was a two hour up and down the hills search. Then we heard a shot a ridge over and a worker on the Ranch had seen the deer in an open field, drove up on it and shot it. Had he not killed it we would have LOST IT. That was the end of my flirtation with varmint calibers on big game. The buck BTW was a very nice 5x5 muley that I would have mounted on my wall in a heartbeat.
I have seen several hunters here in MT who use .223's routinely on deer, antelope and even elk. There is a common thread with ALL of them; They lose an animal from time to time. Some of them wound a LOT of animals.

IF You want to try it YOU need to answer a few questions. Can you pass up shots that are rushed, the wrong angle, or too far? Do you have the ability to really place your shot 100% of the time? Cool and calm with your shots when hunting?

The X bullets, the 64gr WW powerpoint and the 60 gr Nosler partitions would be what I'd recomend. I would also try for pass through lung shots. Or better yet move up to say a .250 Savage, .260 Rem or a .257 Roberts. Very pleasant to shoot and surely adequate for deer.


FN in MT

I would have to echo what has been said: Can it kill deer?- YES. Would I use it?- NO. Here in Missouri the .223 is legal if the ammo has expandable tips. Have seen a few guys try the .223, but most were after meat (ie does and small bucks) and not trophy class.
One guy shot 6 times with a .223 (hit the deer all 6-I'll say nothing about his choice of shot placement)- took him 3 hours and over a mile tracking before he found the deer down. Had to put one more shot into the base of the skull to keep it down.
In my opinion- not enough wallop to get the job done effeciently for me.

I would not want to try .223 on any but the smallest species of deer; and then I'd think twice... But that's just me. I'd want to feel confident that the caliber I've selected will have enough downrange kinetic energy and mass to humanely kill whatever it is I'm hunting. Here in Minnesota it's illegal to hunt deer with anything under .23 caliber.

Thought comes to mind...would the .223 be as attractive to the hunters that want to use them if it were in a single shot format?

While none of us would willingly find ourselves in this situation, it is only a mental exercise,...but what if you had one single round of ammo...that's it, all there is between you and starvation...would the .223 seem such a good idea then?

Even a .223 in the above situation would work but you'd have to work a lot harder to make that happen. By the same token, think if I was motivated enough by hunger, could sit in atree stand with a cinder block over a salt lick and eventaully could collect a deer that way.

Porabably a percentage of hunters never could get up the nerve to pull the trigger on that one round...knowing it was their only choice, would be some folks that choke...but if you were to hunt with a .223 as if that one shot was all you had, would probably (1) have to pass on all iffy shots (2) get close (3) be precise in that one bullet's placement.

I try to get that mind-set every time I go out for eating game...will take the long shots on varmints, but my #1 thought each time I see a deer is (1) can it get closer (2) can I make this one shot as clsoe to a 100% certainty as humanly possible.
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Have hunted with men who though the 22/250 was the cat's-rump for deer. Two used BLR's in 22/250, one with the Sierra 63gr. SMP and the other with the Speer 70gr...and they both killed deer just fine. In at least one case, that was the only rifle he owned...not really an excuse, asn he would well have afforded a room full of rifles, it waws just that that one did all the shoting he needed to do (large soybean farm).

But both of them hunted their own land, knew it and the deer on it like they knew their livestock, and would just set up to collect one where they knew it would likely be...if it didn't show up, or offered a bad shot, no problem...they were on that land 24/7 and would have as many chances for the right shot as they wanted.

On teh other hand, I wass out there prehaps 3 days a year...becasue of that, would take along a larger gun (and they'd comment about cannon fire from the back 40 when I sighted in) that had the perfromence to take those quartering away shots that needed the penetration..the shots they'd pass up.

Here in Idaho when I was growing up my dad and grown brothers were loggers. We were not on the higher end of the earning spectrum. I was six years old before I ever tasted beef. Dad and my brother were over in Montana logging and mom ran out of deer. She had went down to the local grocery store and had bought some hamberger. It was nasty tasting stuff. I couldn't believe folks actually ate it.

Point is both dad and my brother fed us and his family on deer, most of it killed with a 22 long rifle and it didn't matter if it was in season or not. The game wardens we had never seemed to bother folks whom subsisted on the local deer population. Keep in mind this was in the 1950's.

If you have to survive and are careful most any rifle will kill. I know my dad's box of 22 shells lasted a long time and that was including shooting hawks and other virmin after the chickens.

If you have to survive you can, but I would much rather have a cartridge that I don't have to worry about doing the job. I know for sure if it was a 223 or even a 22 long rifle and I had only one shot I would sure make it count. I also know I would much rather have a 30-30 or any centerfire rifle cartridge bigger than even a 243 and that is a proven deer rifle.

Another way to look at this game hunting is look at the folks whom do the bow and arrow thing. They are using killing tools that, at least to me, are not near as efficient as most rifles. Same goes for folks in the pistol hunting business which I did for a lot of years til my eyes made me go to scoped rifles. When your working with killing tools that are very margenal you have to be much more careful of your shots, range and bullet/arrow placement.

If your that kind of hunter, then the 223 with the proper bullets would be OK. If your just starting out with the hunting business, find a weapon/cartridge combo more forgiving bad shot placement.

I think we have to separate wives' tales told over the years with what does work and is practical. And then, what's best?

We've all been told that .223's are only good for prairie dogs. And they do blow up quite nicely indeed. However, an awful lot of men have been killed in battle with them as well. Considering that most of us are shooting man-sized deer, please 'splain it to me Lucy why it isn't considered adequate on deer? When the breadbasket of the deer explodes like a prairie dog, he's dead. So much for the old tales.

Now, practicalities. A rather famous webhost and boardposter, tho' not here, exclusively hunts mulies/hybrids with two other partners, and the only guns they use are .22 cf's...and they've killed a lot of deer. A lot. That's the practical.

Now, what's best? I agree that a .223 wouldn't be my first choice. Why? No good reason, other than I've got better choices. Some of the same folks also suggest, btw, that the 7.62x39 isn't adequate for deer, then tout the .30-30 as the greatest deer killer of all time. In spite of flat bullets, etc. So I'm kind of in Ribbonstone's camp. If it's all you got, and you're not being stupid about your shots, enjoy. If you can't handle recoil, pick a .243 with some Hornady SST's.

The .223 is used by the military but I personally saw that unless the shot was ideal, it didn't put them down. With the shorter barrel as in the M-4, it was even more pronounced, hence the development of the 6.8 SPC. If anyone's read the book Blackhawk Down ( I think that's the one it was in) some of the guys in Somalia had the same problems with the .223 while I think it was Delta Force had 30 cals and were planting the enemy.

I also think that deer are tougher than people with a very strong will for self preservation. I've seen deer with three legs broken with compound fractures crawl several hundred yards into a field and still moving as she was trying to get away. My brother last year shot a buck at close range with a .308 through both lungs and he ran 100 yards. A bowhunter I know took a large buck and found a broadhead that took off part of the left lung and lodged in the far shoulder and had healed with a growth of cartilage around it. Show me a human on earth who can do any of that.

I read a lot of hunting and shooting books and while a lot goes in one ear and out the other, I pick up good pointers from some of them. I remember one author describing what he thought was the ideal trophy buck caliber and his criteria was being able to hit and cleanly kill a big buck over the widest possible ranges up to 300 yards and being able to drive that bullet into the vitals from difficult angles within that range. I didn't think that was too bad a description. And while I believe in the importance of shot placement, the round also has to be able to penetrate the vitals and as FN in MT found out when he hit a rib, the .223 may not always do that esp if you're shooting at a mature, heavy bodied buck.

Ribbonstone mentioned why would a normal healthy person use a .223 for deer? I agree totally, why not a .243 Win, .257 Roberts, 7mm-08, .260 Rem, 6mm x 55 or any number of other rounds that give much more punch without any significant increase in recoil? Unless you're a very experienced hunter who knows the rounds limitations and can pass up a less than ideal shot (which many can't), it shouldn't be used for deer hunting. And while many have been successful, I have to wonder how many deer have been wounded or lost when had a more adequate caliber been used, this wouldn't be the case as with them, there's a little more room for error.

I know the argument can be you can still kill a deer, well they also killed elephants with the 7 x 57 but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

We've all been told that .223's are only good for prairie dogs. And they do blow up quite nicely indeed. However, an awful lot of men have been killed in battle with them as well. Considering that most of us are shooting man-sized deer, please 'splain it to me Lucy why it isn't considered adequate on deer?

Because, ideally, we'd like to find the deer after we kill them....

Good point. I've lost more than one trailing. I like 'em to drop right where I shot 'em, which is what I'm getting with the SST's in .308, 165 gr running near 2700 fps. That's why it's hard to talk me out of the SST's. So that's probably the best point of all, along with MIGarand's field experience (tho' you're using FMJ's right?). Get something that'll anchor 'em right now. And that takes either a sniper caliber shooter, who can hit necks regularly, or a better bullet.

Nothing is guaranteed to 'anchor them right now', other than a brain or spine hit, or taking out both leg bones on one end or the other.

If you've had them all drop, great - but that will come to an end one day, you'll have one run 100 yards or more with no heart or lungs, maybe even on 3 legs. It will happen. I've had a deer run when it's heart was literally no longer attached to anything. I've had hogs run on 3 legs, with their lungs just shredded to pulp. I've had a hog run after being hit with a .458 Win Mag, I kid you not.....

Someone always drags the military's use into the picture...really doesn't relate all that well.

Are many in the military less than thrilled with .223 type perfomance..these are the ones that usually actually have to shoot hostiles.

We don't get to use full auto fire..or three round brust fire...that more controlable full auto fire is one reason the military has stuck by the little round so long.

Nope..is no 100% sure fire deer dropper....nothing....but there are definaetly rounds that perform better than the .223 on deer.

Mike G, all I know is that if someone was shooting a .458 mag at me, I'd be running, too!

Yeah, we've trailed a lot of deer, several on three legs, which they seem esp. able to do. Just haven't lost one yet to the SST's. It'll happen, I'm sure. Unless I retire from hunting....nah.

Winchester's 64 grain soft tip bullet is designed for deer. That is, no bullet blow-up issues as common to lighter constructed prairie dog bullets. Using Sam Fadala's bullet catch box design, I've tested a number of bullets with simulated big game medium. This medium involves placement of cattle bones, soaked newsprint, and cardboard. Shooting at a distance of 100 yards the fore mentioned 64 grain bullet out-penetrated 30-06 with 150 grain bullet. Although "wound channel" was narrower, it was deeper.

Does this mean the .223 is better for deer hunting than 30-06? No. Does it mean this particular bullet has the capability to break through hide and ribs to inflict destructive damage to vital chest organs? Yes.
TR

It seems constructed more so for deer but the Winchester site does not list it for CXP2 sized game. Sure, it has the capability to break through hide and ribs, but as has been already discovered, it also has the capability not to esp on a big mature buck. That's not a gamble I want to take if I see the buck of a lifetime step out..

When I still lived in MT I used my .223 to kill several brown tasties. Both whitetails and mulies. I don't think I ever had one goe over 50 yds after it was hit. Most of them dropped where they stood. Shot my biggest mulie and whitetail both with the .223.

Again it's all about bullet and bullet placement. I used the old Nosler 55 grain boattail not the new ballistic tip.

Watched a 15 year old girl in Florida take her first deer with a .223 at about 75 yards three years ago. It was a nice fat Axis doe, and it went slap down with one round in the head. That convinced me that a .223 can do the job if the shooter is cool and smart. The load was a handloaded 55 grain soft point.
LLS

I agree, bullet selection and placement are very important but you also have to account for the unexpected and variables that may occur. I don't think the .223 can cover all scenarios that may occur like a more adequate round can. Not to mention at the least knowing the rounds limitations and staying within them which may "hunters" nowdays seem to have problems doing.

If you were hunting with a .223 and see B & C buck step out at 250+ yards quartering towards you at a difficult angle and you know you have to get good bullet placement and penetration for a clean kill. The 223 doesn't have the bullet weight or velocity at that range to reliably do it. (well maybe on them small southern deer :D ) That's asking a lot of it when any number of rounds can do it without any significant increase in recoil.

I think the 223 is a great round just not my choice for deer or hogs. For deer size critters I like the 25-06 or 257 Wby or 280. As for hogs I've never hunted them ,but a 223 would not be my choice of hog med's I'll take a 25 0r 7MM or 480 ruger, 45 colt. This is just my take on it.


Hoeram :D

If you want to hunt with a "black" rifle, the AR-10 would be a far better choice. You can get about any .308 based cartridge, as well as the WSM cartridges. Be a lot better choice than a .223 in my opinion. I can see shooting the dog sized deer in Fl with a .223 with good bullets, but it doesn't seem like a very good plan for larger and/or tougher game.

One of the higher powered chamberings for the AR-15 would likely be better as well. They make all sorts of different uppers for your Bushmaster. The .50 Beowulf comes to mind as something that would SLAM a whitetail or hog at reasonable ranges.

I just get my 5 round mag. in order to be legal for hunt here in florida but my question is can I get a deer or a hog whit may bushi .223 rem 50 gr. bullets ?

Well, I'll play devils advocate with this thread.
Yes, you can kill hogs and deer with your .223.
I'm on my third 223 rifle.
The best for the money was a little H&R single shot that I could reload as fast as a bolt action.
I use a 55 grain bullet. And I don't get that technical about it, just a good soft nose bullet that you would find in a Remington or Federal load. I've probably killed 75-100 hogs up to about 275 lbs with that cartridge and numerous doe. Just get the bullet behind the shoulder and don't try to go through same. Once it enters the chest cavity, it blows everything up. At least that's what Doctor Tom has found.
I would do the same with my regular hunting rifles on pigs.

There is a very popular magazine down here called Texas Trophy Hunter and there is a section called game poll where everyone shows off their kills. Without fail, 75% of the animals that kids shoot, are with a 223 that their Dad has bought them to use or for use as a second gun. The pigs in those pictures look pretty dead to me.

I hate recoil! My big gun is a .270 Win, my regular gun is a 7MM-08, and my favorite gun is a CZ 223 with a 4.5 x 14.

I shoot a lot, and kill my share of animals, and in all of my hunting years, I've only killed three deer over 200 yards.

I think as long as you stay under 200 yards, any 200 lb animal is going down with that round.( Including Islamic Jihadists)

Would I rather be using my larger calibers come deer season... I don't know, I'll let you know after deer season.
All I know is that little CZ is a tack driver, the bullet doesn't drop much, and I don't want to walk that far to pick up another dead animal anyway.

Good Luck with your hunt

Well said Tom.

It should be noted that a great deal of hunting in Texas, in fact the overwhelming majority, is done from a fixed blind. This alone will do wonders for marksmanship, having a steady rest for your gun! Also it doesn't hurt that you have time to familiarize yourself with the surroundings and get comfortable with the range.

Much the same can be said of European hunting - and they like small, easy-to-manage calibers as well.

Sitting on top of a mountain in Colorado, looking for elk or mule deer across a canyon, is just so far removed that there is almost no comparison. Neither would jump-shooting big 'ol stinky, hairy pigs at rock-throwing distances in the brush & swamps compare to shooting them from a stand.

Anyway.... sometimes the lighter calibers are the correct choice for the hunter & situation.

As for me.... I think I'll drag my .458 Win Mag along on a deer hunt or two next fall! :D

Well said Tom.

It should be noted that a great deal of hunting in Texas, in fact the overwhelming majority, is done from a fixed blind. This alone will do wonders for marksmanship, having a steady rest for your gun! Also it doesn't hurt that you have time to familiarize yourself with the surroundings and get comfortable with the range.

Much the same can be said of European hunting - and they like small, easy-to-manage calibers as well.

Sitting on top of a mountain in Colorado, looking for elk or mule deer across a canyon, is just so far removed that there is almost no comparison. Neither would jump-shooting big 'ol stinky, hairy pigs at rock-throwing distances in the brush & swamps compare to shooting them from a stand.

Anyway.... sometimes the lighter calibers are the correct choice for the hunter & situation.

As for me.... I think I'll drag my .458 Win Mag along on a deer hunt or two next fall! :D

Ah yes, the deer stand. In my favorite stand , I have a year supply of toilet paper, vienna saugage, granola bars, bug spray, propane heater, and I've gotten to know the distances pretty well after 15 years.
By the way, I'd love to hear that thing go off one morning. It's probably an unmistakeable sound.

Wasp spray... the most indispensible hunting accessory for the Texas deer hunter! I'd go without a gun, before I went without a can of wasp spray... :D

OK, you two - knock it off!

Been cleaning and oiling rifles already cleaned and oiled in anticipation of the mid-November hunt. Don't need too much more talk of lease/stand hunting! :eek:

I'll bring my 1895LTD1 along this fall and we'll have a contest so's TPV can appreciate the ruckus! Might encourage him to pop a cap or two, just to see how much fun we're having! :p