Whenever a bullet strikes your intended target - like deer - if carefully observed, (9 times out of 10) its reaction will tell you if you hit your mark or not.

Heart or Lung Shot
Upon being hit in the heart or lung area, most deer will usually jump or bound forward - kicking out with their hind legs. This shot produces a bright red frothy blood trail with pink or white flecks of lung tissue in it.

Liver Shot
No deer can survive a shot to the liver. Reactions include running a short distance with its head high or well forward before dying within 100 yards. Blood trails tends to be very dark red / thick and glutinous.

Stomach or Gut Shot
Gut-shot deer usually hunch-up and stagger away into nearby cover with their head held low. This poor shot usually produces a lot of green-like splashes of rumen from the stomach - content that sometimes has a lot of pines, acorns, or hair, but with very little blood.

Found the following links that hopefully will be helpful to everyone:

Deer / Elk Anatomy Overview: http://www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/elk2.html

In looking at a deer or elk's circulatory system and bone structure, there appears to be two good spots to shoot for:


http://www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/blood.jpg

1. Heart and Lung area slightly behind the front leg / near the top of the shoulder.


http://www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/bones.jpg

2. Spine / Base of Neck Area. Following the forward portion of the front leg 1/2 to 2/3'rds up to where the neck meets the spine. There are a lot of major support bones in this area that when broken, should anchor the animal very quickly.

147 Grain.......I tested some of those Nosler Accubond bullets and they averaged between 53% weight retention, (180 gr. bullet out of a 300 Win mag) just in case others would like to know. I believe these bullets to be very accurate at longer down range distances but I want something with a little more in the weight retention area. I use Trophy Bonded Bear Claws or my elk hunting and they have gotten 84% weight retention in my tests. :cool:

What velocity, distance, and medium did you shoot the 300 Win Mag AccuBonds into?

I used to do the heart lung thing on elk, but the last few years do a shoulder shot. I've completly blown out an elks heart and had it run 200-250 yards before dropping.

Problem is they usually run downhill over deadfalls and off cliffs and make it living heck to recover them. The last three I shot with a shoulder shot lost all interest in running anywhere and in living any longer at the same time.

I just hate trying to get one of them big fellas up out of a place a termite would have trouble crawling up.

Takes a well constructed heavy bullet, but I usually break both shoulders with the old Rem 8 mag and a 220 grain bullet. I may loose a little meat, but it anchors them solid.

Bob,

I'll have to agree with you! Once hit, if they are at all mobile, elk have this nasty habit of going into the most unimaginably thick tangle of brush and dark timber, at the bottom of the deepest drainage to die!

If given the shot, I'll nearly always choose the shoulder shot for anchoring an elk. As you say, they stay where they are hit, and that precludes any extra uphill packing! I've had them go close to a quarter of a mile with the lungs totally wrecked! Shoulder shots eliminate that problem.

Deer are a different story, they are a pretty fragile critter for the most part, and any boiler room hit generally makes them give up very quickly, and without much spunk left to them.

God bless,

I have to agree with you gentlemen on the shoulder shot issue! One reason I went to the .338 Win mag 15 years ago or so using heavier bullets. It is no fun chasing after an animal the size of an elk through dark timber and over the other side of the mountain.

I have read over the past 6 years, being on internet hunting forums, how so many hunters have taken that lung shot and drop the big bull in it's tracks. :rolleyes:

Well, all I am going to say to that is this: IT AIN"T NEVER HAPPENED TO THIS HUNTER ON ANY BULL ELK YET!!! Not even when I used a .375H&H 30 years ago once to hunt elk!

If you place that shot with a well constructed bullet into the shoulder, chances are in your favor, that elk will not go but a few yards. However, if you use a cheap factory bullet at 300 yards and hit that shoulder, it is going to be a long day for the hunter who made the shot. Hunters best test out their bullets far in advance of any such hunt or shot taken. It will save you a lot of grief in the long run.

.................................................. .....................................

147 Grain........ The velocity was 3060 fps out of a 26 inch barreled model 70 Super Grade "300 Win mag" rifle, using a 180 grain Nosler Accubond bullet. The test media was a combination of front to back: 1/4 inch conveyor belt, 1 inch seasoned Ash Wood, 14 gauge piece of flat steel, 3/4 inch plywood backed by 1 inch Oak & 3/4 inch plywood again, backed up by 50 lbs of modeling clay. All shot at 100 yards off the bench.

I have a hard time trailing wounded game because I am color-blind. It is very difficult for me to distinguish red from the green and brown.

I use a neck shot when I can on all large game. the 180 grain and 200 grain Accubond work very well in my 30-06 Springfield.

Break the neck just foward of the junction to the chest and he's going down right there. It can be a tough shot but it pays off with no tracking or long hauling.

The game does not care what you shoot them with it's where yuou place the shot that counts.

I had a bull elk go about a mile after taking 3 180 remington round nose core lokts to the chest. The first shot dropped him in his tracks...... for about 10 seconds. When he got up I punched him again and he went down again!! This time swinging his left front leg. He was standing with his right side towards me. After clearing a 5 wire bob wire fence I shot him again and he stumbled but kept right on going. He came to another fence but was to far gone to clear it so I jumped back in the truck and drove over and shot him in the head with my .223

After some field forensics I found any of the shots should have killed him. The three entrance holes were within a palm size area and all three penetrated completely with 2 of them under the hide and one passing clear thru. (probably the first one) The first shot was bout 100 yds and the last shot was close to 300 yds. Dad always told me "Don't quit shootin' 'till they're down and dead."

The first picture is a 180 grain Rem round nose cor lokt out of the '06 from the affore mentioned elk weighs 130 grains
#2 is 150 grain Sierra game king boat tails from the 7 mag weighing 60 and 65 grains. Note the lead core is gone. Both bullets from the same elk.
#3 is a55 grain Nosler boattail out from my.223 that killed a 4x4 muley the bullet weighs 38 grains.

I was going to add a picture of a 35 Whelen bullet after it killed an elk but I've never recovered one. They always pass clear thru.

Great advice 2bits

Lots of folks talk about using small calibre guns on elk, but like Craig Boddington I've found that after killing elk for 45 years that bigger is better. the 300's, 8mm mags, 338's, 350 mags, 375's just work better. I know there are folks whom have killed elk with smaller, but I also know a lot of horror stories about the one's whom got away.

Elk can be a tough animal and though I have made some one shot kills, I've also had to shoot more than once. Since I've went to a shoulder shot I've not had to pack any animals out of places a man shouldn't go.

.
#3 is a55 grain Nosler boattail out from my.223 that killed a 4x4 muley the bullet weighs 38 grains.

I was going to add a picture of a 35 Whelen bullet after it killed an elk but I've never recovered one. They always pass clear thru.
.223 on a muley, Was that in Colorado?

No that was in MT. Up around Chinook. It's gotta be 6mm or bigger in CO.

I'm no expert on forensic pathology, but I supect that the reason animals are able to travel so far after taking a solid hit to the heart is due to automaticity (fancy word for meaning the heart can beat without outside influence) its the reason hearts transplants are possible. With out getting to marred down in scientific mumbo jumbo, the heart is made up of individual nerves that fire in a graduated responce across the hearts surface. What does all that mean? That portions of the remaining heart can keep right on beating, allthough ineficiently for a short leangth of time. Sort of like a moter w/o oil. It will evntually lock up, but it will run for awile. As long as the brain is receiving oxygenated blood it can still receive and transmit instructions to the body. Again I'm no expert, and I only got a B in phisiology, so please understand this is just my theory. I still shoot for the heart/lung area because what ever is hit in that location will surely die in a matter of seconds. I'd only go for the shoulder bones if I absolutly had to put them down where they stood, and when taking that shot I'd aim for where the scapula makes its point. I've witnessed this shot on several deer and elk and its as if the the earth just swallows them up. I suspect its because it seperates the brachial or some other major nerve, and of course its highly likely to severe th espinal cord.

I'm no expert on forensic pathology, but I supect that the reason animals are able to travel so far after taking a solid hit to the heart is due to automaticity (fancy word for meaning the heart can beat without outside influence) its the reason hearts transplants are possible. With out getting to marred down in scientific mumbo jumbo, the heart is made up of individual nerves that fire in a graduated responce across the hearts surface. What does all that mean? That portions of the remaining heart can keep right on beating, allthough ineficiently for a short leangth of time. Sort of like a moter w/o oil. It will evntually lock up, but it will run for awile. As long as the brain is receiving oxygenated blood it can still receive and transmit instructions to the body. Again I'm no expert, and I only got a B in phisiology, so please understand this is just my theory. I still shoot for the heart/lung area because what ever is hit in that location will surely die in a matter of seconds. I'd only go for the shoulder bones if I absolutly had to put them down where they stood, and when taking that shot I'd aim for where the scapula makes its point. I've witnessed this shot on several deer and elk and its as if the the earth just swallows them up. I suspect its because it seperates the brachial or some other major nerve, and of course its highly likely to severe th espinal cord.

Only problem with this is when your getting that heart shot elk out of a hole 300 yards deep steeper than a cows face with blow downs four foot high all the way to the top.

I've killed a lot of elk over the past 45 years and I got to tell you that though a few have done the drop where you shot them, most have traveled from 100 to 500 yards even after they were stone dead. Elk seem to be one of the toughest critters I've hunted. I've never used a light rifle, started out with a 308 Norma mag and went to a 8mm Rem mag with 180 Noslers in 30 cal and 220 grain seirras in the big 8.

I'm careful with my shots and most everything I've killed was a boiler room shot (heart lung area). Over the last few years I've went to a shoulder shot on elk. Know what? the last five I've killed decided not to go anywhere. It's hard to run when your runnin equipment is out of order.

I know that only five may not be a descriptive enough survey, but it sure seems to work. I do tear up a little meat in the front quarters, but as I get older I'm getting to hate to dig a dead elk out of a nasty steep place. I don't know why, but they all seem to run downhill after being shot, and they go thru places a tick would have a hard time crawling thru.

I did enjoy your description of how a heart works and from my hunting experience it seems to very accurately describe what happens.

Same with hogs. They aren't as tough as people make them out to be, generally, but they're a lot easier to find when they are dead right where the bullet hit!

Too much brush with thorns on it here.... the fewer legs that are operational, the shorter the distance traveled after they've already expired.

Deer can be lung shot. Hogs, it's a bone-breaking shot if possible....

Especially when trying to drag a hawg up a snot slickened gully bank, eh? :D

Ah.... I knew that was coming!!! :D

Faucettb, your 45 years of expieriance on elk certainly stomps the snot out of my limited trigger time on em. I agree that smashing the running gear on any critter is the most surest way of taking them down hard and fast. That said I still have been impressed with the use of the rear point of the scapula as point of aim. Ive used every since an old gentleman from northen Arizona told me about it, and its yet to have failed me if I did my part. Again I think it seperates either the tri-geminal or brachial nerves, which if it does, then its the same as suddenly cutting the legs out from under a fat mans chair. Meaning things hit the floor fast! Not trying to change anyones mind about their favorite aiming points, just telling about what I've seen.

Faucettb, your 45 years of expieriance on elk certainly stomps the snot out of my limited trigger time on em. I agree that smashing the running gear on any critter is the most surest way of taking them down hard and fast. That said I still have been impressed with the use of the rear point of the scapula as point of aim. Ive used every since an old gentleman from northen Arizona told me about it, and its yet to have failed me if I did my part. Again I think it seperates either the tri-geminal or brachial nerves, which if it does, then its the same as suddenly cutting the legs out from under a fat mans chair. Meaning things hit the floor fast! Not trying to change anyones mind about their favorite aiming points, just telling about what I've seen.

It sounds like you've got a good killing point to shoot at. One of the things I try to do is use a big well constructed bullet. heavy 30, 32, 33, 35 and up bullets break bones well and do not tear meat up as bad as lighter 270, 7mm and light 30 cal bullets at high velocity. I've seen a lot more meat distroyed with a 270 than I ever tore up with my 8 mag.

Another advantage shooting these larger bullets is as our elk populations here in Idaho have dimenished sometimes your faced with a shot that is not optimal, such as that nice six point bull running up the trail away from you. I like to have enough power to reach all the way thru from it's back to the front shoulders.

I also like to have a big as target as I can to shoot at and though a behind the shoulder shot is good sized the front shoulder is even better and bigger. I've shot elk out to 250-275 yards and sometimes you end up shooting offhand and with not much time to shoot. That large aiming point makes those shots much easier and has put a lot more meat in my freezer.

I know I've shot a few elk that were running as fast as they could out of the area and those bigger bullets can make the difference between harvest and nonharvest.

Deer on the other hand give up life much easier and I know that I am overgunned for them, though they don't seem to mind. I just picked up a Remington 700 mountian rifle in 280 Remington for deer hunting around the homestead.

I try to limit my big game ranges to 250 yards or less simply in appreciation of the game I hunt. I've killed coyotes out to 500 yards and beyond.

I find it sad that hunters are buying some of the new super magnums thinking that the guns will allow them to kill animals far beyond the ranges they can accuratly shoot. I've seen hunters shoot at game at long ranges, then simply leave because they think they missed the animal. It's leaving wounded animals in the woods to wonder off and die. Such a shame.

It's not really the gun (within reasonable velocities) that kills, but the ability of the hunter.

faucettb, overall meat destruction is one of the reasons I'm in love with my 45/70. You can eat right up to the hole as my favorite uncle was allways fond of saying. Ive known some Montana boys who swore by their 8mm Rem mags for elk as you do, I've never used one myself, but based on all of its supporters would love to someday.

faucettb, overall meat destruction is one of the reasons I'm in love with my 45/70. You can eat right up to the hole as my favorite uncle was allways fond of saying. Ive known some Montana boys who swore by their 8mm Rem mags for elk as you do, I've never used one myself, but based on all of its supporters would love to someday.

I built a siamese 98 mauser in 45-70 quite a few years ago. Straight grip fagen stock, 20 inch bbl, Peep sights, Great elk gun out to 175 yards, very little meat damage. Could be loaded up to almost 458 Win mag loads. Got to where I really needed a scope and was traded off. Sure wish I had kept that gun.

Your right about how well it kills in relation to how little meat damage it does. Wonderful old cartridge.

I built a siamese 98 mauser in 45-70 quite a few years ago. Straight grip fagen stock, 20 inch bbl, Peep sights, Great elk gun out to 175 yards, very little meat damage. Could be loaded up to almost 458 Win mag loads. Got to where I really needed a scope and was traded off. Sure wish I had kept that gun.

Your right about how well it kills in relation to how little meat damage it does. Wonderful old cartridge.

----------------------------------------------------
SOunds like a great gun. Wandering off the thread a bit, but...did the original 8mm (or whatever the SIamese cal. was)bolt face need to be enlarged to handle the 45-70 case. Where'd you get the barrel?

I have a old 8 mm Mauser action that I was thinking of building a rifle around. Your 45-70 is something I wouldn't have thought of on my own. Great combination...Mauser action/legendary US cartridge.

This gun was originally chambered for a 43 Rimmed case and the action was designed to feed those rimmed cases. I doubt that a mauser action designed to feed rimless cases would work without a lot of work.

That gun is some 35 or so years in the past so's I'm not exactly sure which cartridge it was chambered for originally, but it sure made a nice rifle.

This gun was originally chambered for a 43 Rimmed case and the action was designed to feed those rimmed cases. I doubt that a mauser action designed to feed rimless cases would work without a lot of work.

That gun is some 35 or so years in the past so's I'm not exactly sure which cartridge it was chambered for originally, but it sure made a nice rifle.


Sure does sound fine.


I noticed that if you changed just a few words in that last sentence you could have been talking about an old girlfriend...

We understand.

I completely agree with all the other shoulder shooters here. I started with the shoulder shot as a kid because dad told me knock em down to save on packing. I started elk hunting with a .280 Remington handloaded with 160 grain home made bonded bullets made in the Ackley controlled expansion bullet style. I shoulder shot bulls and had them go down fast. Never recovered a slug to weigh. We shot them anywhere from 30 feet in black timber to 300 yards on meadows and it just plain worked. I know shoot them with either a .338-06 or 9.3x62 Mauser with 250 and 286 grainers respectively. Shoulder shots put them down and you can eat "up to the hole." The only elk I have shot that went more than 20-40 yards I shot with a 300 grain Hornady from a .375 H&H at 60 yards. He was quartering toward me and stepped as I shot; I hit him behind the should and most of the bullet exited behind the last rib on the far side. I shot him again at 20 yards, 20 min and 100 yards later, in the lungs with a 235 grain x-bullet and he ran another 50 yards before falling. The saving grace was he was running the direction I needed to pack him (downhill). I also have shot a lot of deer in Montana and the Midwest with a .22-250 and 55 grainers and it works well, because deer are cream puffs compared to elk. My two cents anyway.

Idoc

Wow! I wish everyone who holds an elk tag in 2005 could read this thread.

I have never "dropped" an elk where it stood at the shot, with one exception. I shot a bedded cow right in the back of the neck at the base of the skull with factory ammo in a 280 Rem. at about 50 yds. That one didn't twitch.

Otherwise, elk often take off without any visible sign of a hit. And I hasten to add that I have never shot an elk over 100 yds. away with anything but 280, '06, or 35 Whelen. Even the Whelen with Federal 225gr. Trophy Bonded Bearclaw through the lungs did not drop a spike bull at 75 yds.

Elk, in my experience, are very tough to drop. I will be using Rem. factory ammo with 250 gr. PSP when the season opens this Saturday morning.

Because of all of the info provided in previous posts, here is my best "elk advice":

Yes, keep shooting until the elk is down and dead IF you are sure you are shooting at the same elk from shot to shot.

However, if you feel your first shot was good and you lose sight of that elk, DO NOT shoot again UNLESS you ARE CERTAIN it is the same animal. Otherwise you can end up with more than one dead elk on your hands when the dust settles. :(

Shoot straight and be safe! :)

I have personally only had 3 elk drop in their tracks. All 3 elk had no clue I was there. I'm not trying to brag up my Injun sneaking abilities either. I've seen 2-3 other elk drop dead that were shot by someone else and again the elk had no clue we were in the area.

nauman That's the same thing my Dad told me about killing an elk only he said "Don't quit shooting until the elk is down or you are out of shells" I haven't ran out of shells yet but I did shoot 14 times (12 were misses at over 400 yds :rolleyes: ) at a rag horn bull that took one in the guts from someone else. I was glad I didn't have to tag that one. YUCK! It was almost past legal light when the idget shot him the first time and I didn't want to spend half the night tracking the poor thing. As it was we had to come back the next day and drag him out.

I shot a 5 pt raghorn twice in the boiler room with the 35 Whelen with 250 grain hornadys. The entrance holes were about 2 inches apart and the exits were about 4 inches apart. Both shots "killed" him but he didn't start to act sickly until after the 2nd one. The first one didn't even make him flinch. He was with another raghorn that had been spooked by some other hunters a few minutes before. Adrenillen must be some powerfull stuff.

I have one more data point to add on the 35 Whelen.

About 27 hours ago I got the drop on a 5X4 (raghorn?) that was strolling up hill as I was moving down. He was oblivious to any danger. I was lucky that we didn't meet nose-to-nose. I am sure the results of that scenario would have been in favor of the elk.

At any rate, I had an undisturbed broadside shot at 60-75 yds. I must have punched it because my shot centered the spine at the third rib rather than the shoulder where I intended.

Result: elk down, no mad dash, no trailing job.
Ammo was Remington factory 250 gr. PSP. (Obviously, no bullet was recovered.)

Finally, tomorrow is pack-out-the-meat day. According to my GPS it will be just short of 2 miles, one-way, cross country. I love it! This is real hunting: find 'em, shoot 'em, deal with it! ;-)