Quick question as referenced:

Does re-finishing a collectible firearm deminish or otherwise depreciate it's value to the collector?

For example, I have just acquired a Winchester 71 that was pretty badly beat up. My intent is take my time and refinish the gun from butt to muzzle. But, not if it means rendering the gun worthless.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

EMC2

Quick question as referenced:

Does re-finishing a collectible firearm deminish or otherwise depreciate it's value to the collector?

For example, I have just acquired a Winchester 71 that was pretty badly beat up. My intent is take my time and refinish the gun from butt to muzzle. But, not if it means rendering the gun worthless.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

EMC2
EMC2,
Refinishing an Antique will not render it worthless.but will definately depreciate it's value.
Go to www.trapdoorcollector.com site.People there can tell you exactly what you can and cannot do to your rifle.They can also tell you exactly how to do it.
Frank

It really depends on the quality of the firearm in question. The Win 71 is a very desirable piece.

I would first have it appraised as it is. you need someone who knows Winchester rifles and understands the colectable business. Yes, refinishing can detract from the value of a colectable firearm. This is hard to determine without haveing the rifle in hand.

I did a rehab on a Marlin model 36ADL a couple of years ago. The rifle had been stored behind the seat of a pickup truck for several years as a haul around rifle. The rifle wasn't in good enough condition to be colectable at that point so refinishing and repair only made it usable again.

I don't know if that helps? I suggest having it appraised and if it's not in collectable condition rehab it and enjoy shooting.

Good Luck, Alan

How beat up is it, and has it already been modified/gunsmithed out of original configuration? 'Pretty beat up' has a differnt meaning for differnt people...how much of the original finish is left, if the wood original and possible to save?

IDeally. the price reflected the condtion. HAve been some great hom-restorations, but the average guy is more likely to reduce collectors value rather than increase it.

Personally, if it is in good shooting condtion, would NOT try to make it look like a modern factroy new gun....would spend the $ to repari any internal faults, but limit my external rebuild to lceaning and perserving.
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Went to one of the on-line sites.

Two good Winchester 1873's as eamples. An original good internal shape with a good clean brore. Nearly no original metal finish, gray with age, stock unblemished, stock dull with little orignal finish...but no splits, dings, or bumps in the wood, no big dings or buggers on the metal. No signs of ever being refinished. Asking $1650.

A refinished 1873...actually, the gun was pretty well done, better than most home-brew jobs...the bluing is like today's modern rifles, a black rather than a blue...stock is complete and without cracks, but stick is finished like a modern commercial rifle. Bore and internal condition are equally fine. Asking $895.

Now on a guess, that site will sell that refinished rifle first..that's a shooter...the non-refinished rifle has the same good bore and internal workings so should be just a good a shooter, but will probably sell to a collector. And over the years, he'll probably re-sell it to get part of the $ needed to move up to one with more original finish. The goal of most collectors is to end up with the best conditon example they can (or one with a documented history).

Well, the wood itself is in decent shape. There are two moderate claw marks, but nothing that can't be sanded out. The inletting is true and not cracked or split anywhere. There is sign of over-oiling, but nothing too dramatic. The finish is for crap and would need to be done over completely

There is no butt-plate. I ordered a checkered steel plate from Numrich tonight.

The checkering is looking pretty good. It is well worn by the hands of hunter, and there is one dent, that looks like it could be re-done.

The internal mechanisms work through the action smoothly, but the lock-up is weak. The lever will drop out of battery if I shake the rifle. I do not have any .348WCF on hand, so I cannot tell how it feeds. The trigger is probably the best I've ever seen on any levergun, modern or not.

The metal blueing is severly worn on the bottom of the action especially. There are some superficial scratches and fading as well. It appears that this is all from being carried throught the woods for 50 years.

The outer barrel has many superficial scratches, with one possible deep scratch by the front sight. and a ding on the front ramp. But, the crown is unscathed.

The bore looks worn. I'm sure there is some degree of throat and muzzle wear, but again, I don't have guages, so I cant really tell. Also, with the help of a flashlight, it doesn't appear to have any rust at all. I do not have a full length bore scope.

The rifle was built in '53

I have it apart now, but would it help if I posted pictures?

Thanks

EMC2

Well, the wood itself is in decent shape. There are two moderate claw marks, but nothing that can't be sanded out. The inletting is true and not cracked or split anywhere. There is sign of over-oiling, but nothing too dramatic. The finish is for crap and would need to be done over completely

There is no butt-plate. I ordered a checkered steel plate from Numrich tonight.

The checkering is looking pretty good. It is well worn by the hands of hunter, and there is one dent, that looks like it could be re-done.

The internal mechanisms work through the action smoothly, but the lock-up is weak. The lever will drop out of battery if I shake the rifle. I do not have any .348WCF on hand, so I cannot tell how it feeds. The trigger is probably the best I've ever seen on any levergun, modern or not.

The metal blueing is severly worn on the bottom of the action especially. There are some superficial scratches and fading as well. It appears that this is all from being carried throught the woods for 50 years.

The outer barrel has many superficial scratches, with one possible deep scratch by the front sight. and a ding on the front ramp. But, the crown is unscathed.

The bore looks worn. I'm sure there is some degree of throat and muzzle wear, but again, I don't have guages, so I cant really tell. Also, with the help of a flashlight, it doesn't appear to have any rust at all. I do not have a full length bore scope.

The rifle was built in '53

I have it apart now, but would it help if I posted pictures?

Thanks

EMC2

Hold off on the sand paper...may be what you will do in the end, but may be some ways to minimalize sandings effects..To get to the bottom of a deep cut you'd need to cut the whole stock down that amount or you'll "dish-out" a hollow area that can be more distrubing than a couple of cuts.

Is the metal work pitted...or does it show signs of having been refinished in the past? Those signs can be the rounding of what should be sharp edges, or a wavy look to flat areas when held at an angle to strong light. Is the metal just bright, or gray, or spotted, or a mud brown?

Does sound like it needs a little work on the inside...the lver shouldn't self-activate for shaking...but it also sounds like smallish problems that can be repaired. The good news is that the opins and the screws that the parts run on are softer than the parts they run through...so MOST of the wear over time is on the easy to repalce screws and pins, not the hard to replace major internal parts.

PROBABLY safe to shoot as it is, but would certainly get a professional opinion on that.

It is a modern made gun...so right now collectors are only after the better non-modififed and non-refinished examples...10 or 20 years down the road that can certainly change.

About five years ago I sold a Spencer that was in a lot worse shape than what you describe...but I was very gald no one over the years had the urge to sand it, buff it, blue it, or other wise improve it...of course, that's an antique collectors piece. But I also had a nice Pre-WWII Winchester 70 that someone had restocked (poorly in a mail-order pre-fit), had reblued at the local gun shop, and cut the barrel to 20"....gun not too much older than yours.

Ribbstone,
I don't want to mis-represent with a poor description, but it really looks like my co-workers grandad was the original owner. He passed on a number of years ago, but hunted heavily and this was his main gun. I'm bleary eyed and working early tomorrow, but I will post picks tomorrow night.

Thanks for your help. You folks are great.

EMC2

If you do decide to refinish the metal, try soaking it in vinigar, in some prior posts they indicated vinigar will float the blue without the damage to lettering etc. It would at least be worth a try to avoid damaging the lettering.

Pictures aren't ready. I was a bit optimistic on my timing. It will take me a few days to clean this thing up.

Thanks
EMC2

Okay,
The pictures are taken and now I just have to wait for the missus to load em up on the PC.

I took the action apart and gave it a good bath. The weak lock-up was fixed by gently filing the lever pin spring "thing" to a more acute angle. No further issue.

How about just a little wet sanding with Tung Oil? Will that be so bad?

It is killing me to not be able to make it all pretty and sexy.

Thanks folks - Stay tuned for the photos

Pictures aren't ready. I was a bit optimistic on my timing. It will take me a few days to clean this thing up.

Thanks
EMC2

You own it, can do anything you want to with it...but if thoughts of future value are in mind, I'd tread lightly. Clean and adjusted, it's going to function adn shoot as well as it ever will...why make it look like any other new rifle?

[QUOTE=EMC2]



How about just a little wet sanding with Tung Oil? Will that be so bad?

Instead of sand paper try 0000 steek wool. super fine and doesn't leave any scratch.

EMC2
A refinished firearm will always be worth less than an unaltered gun in the same condition. From the condition you've described I would be hesitant to start polishing and sanding. The nicks and scratches on your rifle would be considered "character" to a lot of collectors. I know someone referred to your rifle as "modern manufacture" but '71s are snatched up pretty fast. Even guys who wouldn't look twice at a '94 will stop and handle a '71. If your rifle has been refinished before then that's a different story. Look for washed out screw holes and letters in addition to the dips and sharp edges on the receiver. The only time I reccomend restoration at the shop is when the condition of the firearm is so poor that the restored value is greater than the value of the gun as is. Examples would be broken or missing wood, severe pitting, exessive rust, etc. If restoration is the way to go for your rifle then take care to make the finish as original as possible. Examine other rifles of the period to make sure polishing marks run the same direction and the metal surfaces are brought to the same luster as original.

Thanks hog.
Ya know, the funny thing about bluebook values and 'personal' values are funny. For example, the 1953 Mod 71 is worth $650 in 75% cond, and $650 in 10% condition.

I suppose that this was not purchased as an investment, and even at 20% less the going rates, I would still break even if I decide to sell it.

I'm going to take the advice above about it being my gun, and I'll do what I want to it. I'll be careful to match the original as best I can, but I'm going to move forward with it.

I can't get the pictures posted. There 1.75mb jpeg file and it just aint working...I have to try lowering the dpi on my camera.

Thanks!
EMC2

I just redid the stocks on a Winchester shotgun that belonged to my Grandfather. The Varnish was chipped and thin in places, but the stain was in pretty good shape. I used Formby's Varnish Remover(from Lowe's)to get all the gunk off...little light rub of fine steel wool dipped in the formby's....so amazingly easy. It melts away like cotton candy. It does not attack the stain at all but removes every trace of Varnish. Then, I gave the old dry stock a drink of about 10 coats of Linseed, followed by 2 coats of True Oil. Turned out real nice and all the "Character" marks are still in the wood.....they are just protected now. It brought out the beautiful wood, hidden for years by the thick Varnish. Previously, I had worked on the metal too. The gun sat under a Swamp Cooler all the years my Grandfather had it, and there was a light rust all over...used Fine Steel Wool on it with some Hoppe's....rubbing very lightly. It has a red patina in places if you look at it under the light, but you wouldn't notice it otherwise. I think I won't go any further than that, as it is an old farm shotgun that earned the right to look like it does. TxGun was a great help on this one(he goes by that title over on Leverguns, not sure here)