Comment on this Open Sight article:

Practical Hunting Rifle Accuracy (http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/24)

Another great article Marshall... good job!

This is one I totally agree with....that's kind of rare for a COB (cranky old b.)

An excellent article. I agree with the premise completely. This is why I have tried never to take shots on game (in the past) beyond 250 yards. Now, as I only shoot an-iron-sighted rifle (I've gotten more traditional in my old age)....I won't consider shots beyond 150 yards (and usually, no more than 125 yards...in actual practice).

A 2.5 inch group at 100 yards means the bullet will hit within 1.25 inch of where you are aiming. Thats close enough for me. I carry small binos and use a 2 and 3/4 power scout scope. If it looks too small in that scope, its too far for me.

ironhead,
I'm right there with you on this. If I can get consistent 2" - 2.5" groups at 100 yards.....I'm quite happy with that. Sometimes, on off days, I can't quite manage it (a few fliers). But, that's ME, not the rifle.

Yes a great article. I remember seeing a similar one on Chuck Hawks site. I think the problem with many hunters today and in the age of super magnums, they believe since their new 300 super ultra mach magnum has enough energy to kill an elk at 1000 yards, that's how far they can shoot. They seem to forget the weak link is them as the shooter.

I was at an ammo sale last year at a local sporting goods store and an older gentleman was asking the clerk how far a certain 30-06 load would shoot. I asked him how good of a shot was he (I was ignored of course) and the clerk replied 600 yards. The man bought the ammo. My problem was this guy if he shot at all before the season was to sight in his rifle. At most, maybe to verify his zero before the season. Now he goes out to the field believing he can take a deer out to 600 yards. And that IMO is a problem that is getting to be worse and worse is hunters not knowing their or their equipments limits and staying within them. Again, great article.

M1 hit the nail on the head. Sure see a lots of folks at the range with those monster magnums sighting their rifles in a a hundred yards and never actually firing at the ranges their talking about shooting game at. They usually never shoot from field positions either.

I'm not putting down the monster mags, I still shoot my Rem 8 mag, but relying on ballistic tables to shoot living creatures at long range seems to insure wounded animals.

I have two friends whom shoot a 300 RUM and a 300 Winchester Mag whom I helped sight in their rifles. Both were sighting in one inch high at a hundred yards, not realizing how much drop this dials into these high performance cartridges at longer range.

Both of these fellas are supurb shots and excellent hunters, but are not using the trajectories of their rifles to optimize hits out to the 350 yards plus these rifles are designed to shoot with out having to worry about holdover.

I also know that as Marshall said I've ended up in the crosshairs of other hunters a few times and have had friends whom were shot at. Perhaps it was better they had such poor shooting skils at long ranges.

Marhall,Great article.I could never put together an article like that but I have always felt the same way as you. I an ad that,hunting in the woods,Iv'e had rifle sights pointed at me at less then 100 yards.
My personal limit is around 200-250 yards,but I rarely see any game at that rnge.My personal limitation is 'Running Deer' I rarely shoot at them because I'm not that good a shot offhand.
I would much prefer eating 'store bought'meat then worry about a possible wounded deer.
Frank

I also don't have anything against the magnums, and I'd love nothing better than a good old 8mm Rem Mag. I just don't get the guys who get them and figure they can take potshots at game they have no business shooting at.

I can relate to rounds flying my way as well, I've had it happen twice. Both were several years ago. I'll keep both brief but once while hunting the farm, I was walking to my blind while a neighbor was already in his (problems with another neighbor shooting deer on our property was why I was out) and a small buck was bedded on a hill between us. Well the buck stood up as I approached my blind and was almost in a direct line between us. He was about 100 yards from each of us with the neighbor on the far side about 200 yards away. Well the neighbor decided to start shooting and I hit the dirt. I have to say I almost felt like sending a few his way I was so mad...but I didn't.

Another was just off some property we used to own in northern MI, my cousin and I were stalking a ridge on a cedar swamp and as we entered state land, we heard shots that sounded like they were right on top of us. We started yelling so whomever knew there were people nearby and an old guy comes out and asks if we saw that six point. No we said but you were shooting in our direction. We found what he was shooting at and it was a yearling doe, and of course he had no doe tag. I believe we drove that young deer by the guy and I guess I'm kinda glad because the guy could've opened up on us..who knows. I just have a hard time comprehending why "hunters" have such a hard time ID'ing their target (or beyond) before shooting. I'm kinda surprised there aren't more hunting accidents from what I've seen.

Some of the reasons for buying the super magnums follows these trains of thought:

Advertising says these guns shoot raygun straight for long distances. I know that when I was younger I always wanted the hottest, baddest, fastest and so forth. Wasn't any real reason for it, but you always envied the guy with the hotrod with the most power. One-up-manship is kind of an American Tradition and it takes some growing up to get over it.

Just because folks don't have the latest whiz-bang magnum does not mean they won't take shots that folks with more game sense won't. You see it in the woods all the time. Lots of times these same folks have just sighted in their rifle at that big white rock at an indeterminate distance, Yup right on, lets shoot that deer over on the other side of the vally.

There are lots of beginners whom just don't know any better. Thats why websites such as this one is so important. It allows us to mentor new hunters and shooters all over the country instead just in our local area.

On the reverse side there are lots of sportsman whom are careful with their rifle, cartridge, shooting distance and shot placement selection. Those folks know there is more to hunting than pointing the gun and going bang.

These are the hunters sharing their knowledge on forums like this and to hunters and folks just getting into hunting. When they do this lets just pray that it's presented in a way that those folks listen.

Thank you Mr. Stanton for a great article and giving us the means to discuss it.

Well said Bob.

I can do nothing but agree with you gentlemen on this post !It is one thing to shoot of a bench under controled conditions Vs going out in the field ! At the end of the day how many shooters can really say for sure what range their shooting at once it gets past say the 100yrd mark?I learnt by long & expensive experiance ,that long shots are not always paying shots & I feel this post is once again renforcing the fact that although your rifle is capible of taking game at 300yrds+!Dose'nt mean that you have to try & hit that far out!This is a valuble leason for Newbies & seasoned hunters as well ;)

Dave

Great artical Marshall

Many do not practice with proper sized animal targets before going afeild.

No matter what I'm useing I limit the length of shot that I am willing to take. Even with the flattest shooting magnum I would not take a shot past about 200 yards. Why? Because too many things can happen, and a blood trail can be difficult enough to find under some conditions.

I use to shoot varmints past this point but stalking and actually hunting the animal have become more important to me lately.

As always your primary concern should be safety and harvesting the animal cleanly. I think that your prmary concern should be accuracy. You don't know what shot you may need to take in the feild and extra power, flat trajectory and all the other stuff goes right out the window if you miss, or worse wound the animal your shooting at. True the bullet must have enough power to do the job but once that is accomplished you have to hit the target.

Hitting a paper plate at 150 yards from the bench is a lot different proposition than in the feild with the target in different relative position to the sun, snow flying, wind, hunter excitement a makeshift rest. With all the variables it is a wonder that as many animals are killed each year. theres no such thing as too much accuracy.

Have you ever heard the excuse"I didn't get my buck cause my rifle is too accurate".
Regards
Gene

I enjoy my varmint rifles but when i recently decided to build a "new" hunting rifle, I went with open sights and a .308. Sighted in at two inches high at 100 yards, a hold on the fur at any reasonable range will do the job.

Comment on this Open Sight article:

Practical Hunting Rifle Accuracy (http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/24)
an excellent article! For deep woods hunting, I am planning on hanging up my scoped rifle's and will likely hunt exclusively with a 336 chambered in 35 Remington. If I ever needed to make a 200 yard shot it is certainly capable of doing so, although I have never had a shot over 100 yards in the woods in 25 years of hunting. I am tinkering with the rifle a bit to refine the sites, shoulder weld etc.. And will likely have to load a hundred rounds or so to practice with this setup before I really feel confident with it. The textbook 200 yard trajectory is about 8 inches low with a 100 yards zero. Shooting at long distances is definitely a technical challenge, but that's not the reason I'm out there anymore.

I could consider a bull at 800 - 830 yds. with the .340, IF he was lying down and I was sure of the wind (all the way from me to him) and absolutely sure of "everything" between, beside and behind where an errant shot could go, BUT WHY end a "hunt?" like that just because I can consistently hit a 12"X 16" plate at 1000 and my rifle is "on" to the 830 by using the bottom dot ........ far better to close the gap to less than 100 and test my skills v. a critter with much better ears, nose and generations of RNA opposed to being predated on; my binocs will help level the playing field for sight.

Longrange Rifleshooting - I love it, but it isn't hunting.

I always try to hunt where I am alone or with a good friend - I truly hate being "scoped" and being shot at (or near) makes me want to show them what longrange shooting can look like, but exiting is better.

I believe that if you can't see the critter with the naked eye, you shouldn't shoot at it, use binoculars for seeking information, and unless you can positively id it do not even point the firearm at it.

I really appreciated the article.... LRB

We're at least 2 generations forward in time away from good hunters because we just don't value quality time (as a population) with our elders. So, today's hunters have not had the advantage of dad, or mom, coaching them. I believe my interest in guns stayed dormant until I got out on my own because my dad was simply too busy with his career. As a child of about 5-6 (?) I witnessed my dad use a .30-.30 to shoot a soda can thrown in the air about 10' high. It made a lasting impression on me, but unfortunately we never discussed it or did father/son shooting. People do wizzbang because they believe what they read as there was no mentor to guide to them. As for me now, I'm comfortable with dead animals without a sore shoulder with my easy carrying lever action. And, my daughter and son both have been exposed to shooting. Their interest in shooting comes and goes, but at least my family does spend good quality time with each other outside. A well grounded article to me.

Weelll. I didn't read all the replies to your post. But, they all seemed positive. My reaction is a bit mixed. You certainly made a good point about the human part being the limiting factor in a set up.

But, Then you went on to illustrate how you had once been a long ranger but had "come full circle". Made mistakes, gained in wisdom, and now see a better way. You further gave examples of a few idiots doing stupid things to validate long range hunting being dangerous and unethical.

I have two hunting passions. One is bowhunting. The other is long range rifle huntng. I understand the intimate nature of bowhunting, and love it. I also enjoy the challenge of long range hunting. Which I will define as, long range shooting at game.

I think the examples you gave illustrate nothing more than the fact some people shouldn't be afield at all. I'll suggest a couple scenarios. You tell me which you'd rather have in the field with you. Let's take Jim and Dave for our first example. Jim and Dave spend a couple evenings a week shooting. They make meticulous handloads. They test thier loads, rifles and equiptment constantly. They scout carefully and plan thier hunt carefully. The plan is to set up in a remote canyon. Jim will shoot first and Dave will spot. They set up thier equiptment carefully, shoot off of solid rests, and know the behavior of the local game.

Bob and Joe on the other hand don't shoot much, don't scout much, and in short are more "typical" hunters. As Bob and Joe walk along they hope to jump a deer and get a shot.

Who's more likely to make a mistake? Who's more likely to wound an animal? Who's going to be taking snap shots?


I don't like the things your article implies about long range hunting. Reminds me a bit of some articles Zumbo wrote recently. Now, I love woodcraft, and the intimate nature of stalking close, and the hunting ethics my dad and grandad taught me. If you think long range hunting can't be done with those same values in mind, you are sadly mistaken. The different types of hunting / shooting appeal to different natures. It is that simple. It is NOT an ehtics/ safety issue any more than any kind of hunting and shooting is.

There is no need to turn up your nose when you hike past the guy who is sitting on a vantage point with a bipod, laser rangefinder, spotting scope, and a partner. They just like to do things different than you. Ask 'em what they saw.

Good hunting.

Marshall - Having been shot at from long-range I greatly appreciate your observations. I was fortunate he wasn't any better a shooter than he was a hunter.

Good article Marshall, and thank you.

It was late when I read the article last night. So, I took another look at it. I think the underlying message is sound. "Don't take shots you aren't qualified to take". Or perhaps, " Be sure of your target and backstop".

However, I still found the article a bit abrasive. You've made a general inferal long range hunting is dangerous and unethical. I highly dissagree. I further submit your qualifying examples do nothing of the sort. In each and every example of "long range hunting" being dangerous or unethical an idiot is described doing something foolish.

Long range hunting takes dedication. It requires a substantial investment in time and equiptment. You aren't talking about the kind of people who make this investment. Your examples are all about people taking shots they simply shouldn't. Wether they are unsure of thier target, or backdrop, or they don't have the skill and equiptment necessary to do what they attempt. Safety rules are simple. Be sure of your target and what's beyond!!!! Don't shoot at skylined game...

Come on!

If anything, long range hunters are safer. I'm talking about the guys who invest the time in building skill, testing loads and drops, and shooting in varying conditions. I know where every bullet I shoot is going to land. I have time to check my target and backstop. And usually have a partner checking the same things. I am calm when I shoot. And, I'm shooting at undisturbed game.

When a deer jumps to its feet at one hundred yards, the shot has to be made NOW. With pounding heart and shaking hands and no time to examine the backdrop. What are you folks carrying fast handling lever actions for? Quick shots in the woods. And a quicker follow up shots on a now running animal.

My point is there's loads of ways to be stupid with a firearm in your hands.

Picking out one facet such as long range and saying this particular one is more dangerous, more unethical is silly.

I agree everyone should be sure of thier target and beyond. I agree there is a great deal of satisfaction and excitement in stalking close. However, I wholeheartedly dissagree with the premise long range hunting is dangerous and unethical. It's all about the way we aproach it. And, the self discipline each of us should employ while hunting, however we choose to do it.

It was late when I read the article last night. So, I took another look at it. I think the underlying message is sound. "Don't take shots you aren't qualified to take". Or perhaps, " Be sure of your target and backstop".

However, I still found the article a bit abrasive. You've made a general inferal long range hunting is dangerous and unethical. I highly dissagree. I further submit your qualifying examples do nothing of the sort. In each and every example of "long range hunting" being dangerous or unethical an idiot is described doing something foolish.

Long range hunting takes dedication. It requires a substantial investment in time and equiptment. You aren't talking about the kind of people who make this investment. Your examples are all about people taking shots they simply shouldn't. Wether they are unsure of thier target, or backdrop, or they don't have the skill and equiptment necessary to do what they attempt. Safety rules are simple. Be sure of your target and what's beyond!!!! Don't shoot at skylined game...

Come on!

If anything, long range hunters are safer. I'm talking about the guys who invest the time in building skill, testing loads and drops, and shooting in varying conditions. I know where every bullet I shoot is going to land. I have time to check my target and backstop. And usually have a partner checking the same things. I am calm when I shoot. And, I'm shooting at undisturbed game.

When a deer jumps to its feet at one hundred yards, the shot has to be made NOW. With pounding heart and shaking hands and no time to examine the backdrop. What are you folks carrying fast handling lever actions for? Quick shots in the woods. And a quicker follow up shots on a now running animal.

My point is there's loads of ways to be stupid with a firearm in your hands.

Picking out one facet such as long range and saying this particular one is more dangerous, more unethical is silly.

I agree everyone should be sure of thier target and beyond. I agree there is a great deal of satisfaction and excitement in stalking close. However, I wholeheartedly dissagree with the premise long range hunting is dangerous and unethical. It's all about the way we aproach it. And, the self discipline each of us should employ while hunting, however we choose to do it.
Grit,
Enjoyed your posts.
I also, am a long range hunter. In Texas, where I hunt, I set stands about 150-200 yards away from the food source. That means that shots can be up to 300 yards or so, and that to me is considered long range. I do not for any reason feel disconnected from the wildlife. In fact I enjoy it more because at that distance, I get to see more animals, and am not as concerned with animals scenting me. This is important when you hunt the same general area week after week. If I hunted close in, then my presence alone would effect the hunting area.

My rifles are set up for this range with most wearing 4.5-14x scopes. I can generally put a bullet between the third and fourth hair on a hogs shoulder if I so desire.
Recently I bought an older Ballard style Marlin 30-30 and put a Lyman Peep receiver on it. just to play with. On my first 100 yard shot at a pig, I found that the peep sight covered up most of the shoulder. I hit the pig, but not where I wanted. That's alright with me, I knew that would happen because it is more of a challenge to go with the open sighted weapon. But I don't think that folks who use the lever action only put one shell in the magazine. They are designed for fast follow up shots. In my area of the world, the first shot is all you get.

We all enjoy shooting, we come from different backgrounds, and hunt different areas with totally different cover. I'm sure there's a good reason for what ever we do.

I actually bought the 30-30, just so I could start loading the Beartooth Bullets and try something for a change. It is fun to shoot. I would recommend it to anyone.

However, when I finally get a 150 class Whitetail 250-300 yards away from me and its getting dark, I want an accurate long range rifle, a good scope, a good rest, and the results will be predictable. There will be no lucky shots, or snap shots blasting away in hopes that I will hit the animal. The bullet needs to go between the third and fourth hair on the shoulder.

I'm not trying to stir up anything, especially after the long winded PA deer hunting posts, but I think we just need to respect others hunting form.

I am also a bow hunter with arthritis. That's another way of saying I don't bow hunt anymore but for about 20 years (including owning one of the original Allen Compound bows)
I did much of my deer hunting that way and learned what hunting was about. Now that I know, I want to cover as much ground as possible in order to kill a really big buck.
While I am sitting on the side of a hill, or field, I will be enjoying my hunt as much as the next guy.
Good luck to all and have a Holy Easter week.
Peace

Fellows, I just noticed that these posts were put in the "open sights" heading. In that respect, I probably shouldn't have even commented, since it is about open sights.

As far as my Marlin, I really like it, just disregard all that other stuff in the post and we'll get along fine!

TPV,
Thanks for the kind words. I agree with your post wholeheartedly. As for it not applying because of the open sight heading, why? Long range can certainly be done with open sights. Take High Power and Palma for example. These folks shoot smaller groups at 600 and 1000 than most of us can offhand at 100.

The issue I take with the article is it serves to allienate folks who like to do things differently than the author. I am constantly amazed by the endless little clics in the hunting community who think they're the only folks who know what hunting is and how it ought to be done. Folks who choose to look down thier noses at those who don't share thier particular idiosynchrasies. Then give a bunch of examples of stupid people doing stupid things, and say, "See".

I don't see. The fundamentals of firearm safety apply across the board, whatever your weapon and range of choice! I can build a case against every form of hunting, especially using faulty analagies and hasty conclusions. Hunting is all dangerous. All forms kill, ultimately. Follow the safety rules! Respect the game!

I think it stems from fear. Fear the antis will use "sniper" guns or "black guns" to take our guns away. The second ammendment has NOTHING to do with hunting! And, fear of competition. We are all losing our hunting grounds. Costs are going up! We have to apply for permits for crowded hunting, pick limited areas, choose between species, study boundaries and dates. It is easy to be resentful. Easy to think we could do without those folks, and those ones, and those ones.... They're the ones ruining it for us!

The population is growing. It will continue. Hunting opportunities will be fewer as the competion grows. There is no way to avoid it. Still, we are all hunters. We are all gun owners. We are all a team. Granted, there are stupid people among us. Unfortunately, stupid is not an act. There is also a constant crop of youngsters who make mistakes. But, the rest of us can help. We can share our ideas and values. Welcome folks. Ask questions, and listen.

There's a lot of folks who say this way or that way can't / shouldn't be done. There's a lot of others who learn how to do it. Not disregarding limits, but with greater understanding of them. Refined skills, refined equiptment, and a lot of experience and judgement. The average view is just that. There are whole other worlds in any direction you want to explore.

Outstanding Article, glad you made these points.
I know what I call hunting.
Think I'll go do some!