Hi,

I read Marshall Stanton's Tech Notes article on "Savage 24 Over-Under Combination Guns" and was so intrigued that I went out and bought a Savage 24B in .30-30/20 gauge and had it rechambered for .30-30 Ackley Improved.
After fire-forming some brass, I next wanted to work up a deer hunting load using Laser Cast's 170 gr RNFP gas-checked bullet, which is actually a Lyman 311041.
Marshall recommended a starting load of 35.0 grs of H-335 powder, using only brass fire-formed to my chamber and Winchester LR primers.

I shot 2 rounds of this starting load before I noticed some problems with the brass and immediately stopped shooting. The primers were flattened and there was visible swelling at the case head pressure ring about 0.25" from the case rim. When measured, the case head expansion was 0.005" and one case had a definite ring that I could actually feel.

I started with brand new brass that was fired once to fire-form to my chamber, then used this fire-formed brass for the above starting load. Obviously, there is too much pressure as evidenced by the case head pressure ring and the flattened primer. But why?

I seated the 170 gr Laser Cast lead bullet to engrave the rifling in an attempt to improve accuracy. I suspect this may have increased pressures too much.

This is my first Ackley Improved rifle so I can use plenty of hints and advise. When handloading for the .30-30 Ackley Improved does one use the same COL as for the .30-30 Win or can one seat the bullet out a bit longer?

My plan at this point is to seat the lead bullet deeper so it is off the lands, plus I'll reduce the starting load down to 32.0 grs of H-335 powder. Also, I'll send a fire-formed case to Stoney Point and have them make me a modifed case for use with my OAL gauge. That way, I'll be able to precisely regulate the free travel.

I've been handloading about 36 years (target and hunting loads) and this is the first time I've seen brass with signs of excessive pressure at the case head ("pressure ring").

The only loads I can seem to find for the .30-30 Ackley Improved are max loads and they never say what firearm was used (lever action, bolt action, over/under). If anyone knows of some safe starting loads for a Savage 24B combination rifle/shotgun, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Likewise, advise on bullet seating depth and COL for a .30-30 Ackley Improved would be greatly appreciated as well.

Thanks,
helenajoe

Hi,

I found a thread where the Registred User, axlenut, explains his opinion for primers that protrude when fire-forming cases.

He said that one must use full powder loads to fire-form brass. If light powder loads are used, the firing pin drives the case forward, the body expands and grips the chamber, but without enough force to lengthen the case back against the bolt face --- thus the case actually shorten up and can leave the primer protruding substantially.
He goes on to say that these cases have excessive headspace and can separate with the next firing.

Wow! That sure seems to be what happened to me. I used new brass, fire-formed it once using a light powder load and noted a slightly protruding primer that was rounded not flat.
Then, I loaded a starting load of 35 grs of H-335 with a 170 gr lead gas-checked Laser Cast bullet --- and got a flattened primer with a visible pressure ring at the case head, which expanded 0.005".

Today, I went back and measured a fire-formed case (with light powder load) with protruding primer removed and it measured 2.013" as compared to 2.029" for a brand new unfired .30-30 Win case. That means the fire-formed case shrunk a whopping 0.016".

When I measured the case with the visible pressure ring at the case head (starting load of 35 grs of H-335 powder), it was 2.016" --- thus, it stretched 0.003".
Interestingly, I measured a fire-formed case with a protruding primer and it measured 2.016", the same as the starting load case with the visible pressure ring at the case
head.

Therefore, it looks like the Registered User, axlenut, was correct with his reasoning for using full powder loads to fire-form cases.

This is my first experience with an Ackley Improved caliber so hints and advise will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
helenajoe

I have no experience with the improved round. When you load for fireforming, it is still a 30-30 winchester. My data shows 35 grains as more than a starting load. 33grains is maximum. I have some older manuals that show bigger charges though. Start load is 28.5grains.
Be careful out there.
Cheezywan

One thing that can help with headspace when fireforming is to seat the bullet hard against the rifling so that the case cannot move foreward. However, if you do this you will definitely need to reduce your powder charge from max!!!

You are correct in your guess that flattened primers can be caused by firing a case with excess headspace - the primer backs out and then is flattened when full pressure is reached. Primers truly flattened by pressure are not likely to show up with ANY 30-30 load.

As for the pressure ring - it doesn't necessarily mean high pressure. It could just mean that the brass is expanding to fill a generous chamber. But then again...

I don't know how much pressure your loads are generating - it is impossible to tell without pressure testing gear. You could get a pretty good idea from a chronograph, but only if you compare your load to a pressure tested load using the same bullet, etc. You would really need to find published data for your bullet.

If it were me, I would 1) fireform using a method that minimizes headspace issues 2) fire "full power" starting loads and measure the expansion ring, recording the measurement for each individual case. Then fire those same cases with the same load and see how much they grow compared to the first firing. 3) chronograph the loads. If they are developing the expected velocity, then you can be pretty sure you are in the ballpark.

Bottom line is, when you are dinking with a wildcat, you are on your own, and only you are responsible for the safety of your loads. Be safe and have fun!!

“Laser Cast's 170 gr RNFP gas-checked bullet, which is actually a Lyman 311041.
Marshall recommended a starting load of 35.0 grs of H-335 powder, using only brass fire-formed to my chamber and Winchester LR primers.”

What velocity level are you looking for?
My experience with ball powders and cast bullets has left me less than satisfied. I would prefer H4895 – which powder I believe you were using for fireforming?

”I shot 2 rounds of this starting load before I noticed some problems with the brass and immediately stopped shooting. The primers were flattened and there was visible swelling at the case head pressure ring about 0.25" from the case rim. When measured, the case head expansion was 0.005" and one case had a definite ring that I could actually feel.”

I have found all new unfired .30-30 brass I have measured to be about .4175” at the pressure ring. Firing and full length resizing will bring it down to some where around .419”. Our personal stop points are .422” for the .30-30AI in all of our rifles. This is high pressure. The majority of our loads and our day to day loading have a stop point of .4217”.
What that means is you will see a bulge at the top of the case web where the case wall starts. You will see this on the .30-30 and the .32 H&R Magnums cases as well. A majority of the factory new 25-35 Winchester cases I have measured will be .4215” at the pressure ring. These cases will also show a “bulge” at the top of the web. Full length resizing will reduce but not eliminate this. I have had no case life problems with brass that exhibits this.
Ken Waters in his first Pet Loads article on the .30-30 suggested .001” pressure ring expansion for the standard lever actions of that time. In later years his .30-30 Pet Loads Update raised the bar in modern lever actions another .0008”. After working with the .30-30AI quite a bit we settled on the .422” pressure ring measurement as providing both a significant performance increase over the standard .30-30 and yet still providing an apparent margin of safety, even on warm days.

“I started with brand new brass that was fired once to fire-form to my chamber, then used this fire-formed brass for the above starting load. Obviously, there is too much pressure as evidenced by the case head pressure ring and the flattened primer. But why?”

From the descriptions of your fireform loads and you subsequent H335 load, I do not think you have experienced any high pressure situations. We have discussed pressure ring measurements and case life in other threads on this forum. In general terms, my observations have been that you cannot begin to use pressure ring measurements until you have fireformed the cases with at least a maximum standard .30-30 load and then full length resized the case. This is due to the factory new brass being undersize.

”I seated the 170 gr Laser Cast lead bullet to engrave the rifling in an attempt to improve accuracy. I suspect this may have increased pressures too much.”

I have shot quite a few of Beartooth Forum member Greg Mushials (GMDR.Com) lead loads in my .30-30AI’s using the Lyman 311291. This round nose bullet cast from my soft alloy is a press fit into the leade and rifling in both the Winchester and Marlin lever action rifle. I shoot these at full power (1950 to 2000 fps) in the standard .30-30 and have shot them above 1900 fps in the Improved cartridge with no difficulty.

”This is my first Ackley Improved rifle so I can use plenty of hints and advise. When handloading for the .30-30 Ackley Improved does one use the same COL as for the .30-30 Win or can one seat the bullet out a bit longer?”

I use the same COAL as for the standard rifle when loading the 170 grain bullets – 2.55”.
Some of the lighter bullets require a shorter coal due to their reduced lengths. I often load the 150 and 130 grain bullets to 2.500”


”My plan at this point is to seat the lead bullet deeper so it is off the lands, plus I'll reduce the starting load down to 32.0 grs of H-335 powder. Also, I'll send a fire-formed case to Stoney Point and have them make me a modifed case for use with my OAL gauge. That way, I'll be able to precisely regulate the free travel.”

I have found Hodgdon 335 and Hodgdon 4895 to be interchangeable grain for grain in the .30-30AI cartridge. I have not shot less than 36.0 grains with 170 grain bullets. Between 36.0 and 38.0 grains I have had good results with both powders and all of the commonly available commercial flat nose bullets.

.
”Then, I loaded a starting load of 35 grs of H-335 with a 170 gr lead gas-checked Laser Cast bullet --- and got a flattened primer with a visible pressure ring at the case head, which expanded 0.005".”

As said above, I believe it is entirely possible to have a .005’ pressure ring expansion measurement difference between a new unfired case and a case fired at full pressure. It is not likely to happen on the first firing though.

“Today, I went back and measured a fire-formed case (with light powder load) with protruding primer removed and it measured 2.013" as compared to 2.029" for a brand new unfired .30-30 Win case. That means the fire-formed case shrunk a whopping 0.016".”


That is about right by my memory, I will have to look it up in my load notes.
I would suggest measuring the pressure ring on a full length sized fireformed case and then firing that case with what ever load you have chosen. I would be interested in the measured difference on the case.
Personally, I do not look at the .30-30AI as a cast bullet cartridge. The case will shoot cast bullet well but requires a bit of careful handling. I prefer the standard .30-30 for cast bullet use.
I look forward to seeing further posts as you work with the .30-30AI in your rifle. 22” barrel? I have some loads in the Load swap section on Beartooth. I could post some more. I would suggest the 110 grain bullets for fun shooting. The 130 grain Speer bullets are a lot of fun also. With your single shot you can enjoy the boat tail 150 grain spitzer bullets. We have shot several boxes of the Hornady A-Max bullets in our rifles and they perform very well.

Just a thought.

Being a rimmed case, wouldn't the rim keep the case from moving forward from the firing pin blow and shortening the case? Assuming the headspace was set correctly when the chamber was cut.

I have never trifled with an A/I, or any other wildcat, but I was under the impression that a rimmed case would not shorten. However a bottleneck case can shorten on firing with light loads in this manner.

SSB

The .30-30AI moves the shoulder forward just a little further than is normally associated with the Ackley Improved cartridges. The case is also blown out straight (er) and is quite a bit larger at the case-shoulder juction. The case gets a little shorter.
When fire foriming AI cases from brass which has been reloaded several times as a standard .30-30, the case will show considerable stretching in the pressure ring area just above the web. You can feel this inside the case with a bent wire. If these cases are loaded to high pressure many will crack in the pressure ring area and some will fail. I believe it is best to usefresh brass for fireforming or factory loads. Others have had better results using old brass than I have. I figure brass is cheap.

I have both a 7x57 and a 7x57AI. I discovered long ago that the best fireforming load for the 7x57AI was the same load that I shot in the 7x57. The greater chamber volume of the 'Improved' reduces pressures to what would be a moderate 'full power load'.