Hi,
JP has got me interested in acquiring a 10mm. Does anyone have any preferences on a GREAT 10mm? JP likes his AO but they aren't made the same since Kahr bought them. What then? Any info on the Glock 20 since that seems to be the only 1 I can find available?
Thanks,
Greg

Kimber Stainless Target II

I don't know if they are still making them, but they are out there. Typical price will be $8-850. Dan Wesson Razorbacks are also out there in the same price range. DW was purchased by www.czusa.com and the autos are the first handguns that are being sold, revolvers to follow hopefully. I have a Target II and it is an excellent pistol. These are full feature, no compromise, pistols. Buy it, shoot it, and be happy type of deal. Trigger is in the 4-4.5lb range which is a little heavy for my taste, but it is clean. A 3lb trigger on a 10mm might not be such a good idea anyway as there is some substantial, not unpleasant or unmanagable, recoil with the full power 200gr loads. I'm not talking magnum revolver recoil, but a bit more than a .45.

Depending on what you want to use it for I don't consider the Glock to be a GREAT choice...good maybe, especially if price is the main factor and you are content with it the way it comes out of the box. You could buy one and put the trigger parts in it, change the barrel so you can shoot lead, put on some non-existant match grade sights, and whatever else folks do with these things. After you've done all that you'll have spent more than a good pistol would have cost in the first place and you'll be stuck with a sorry plastic excuse compared to a good 1911, which will have no resale even close to what you've got into it. That's my opinion, and just that, so no offense to Glock fans.

EAA has the 10mm in it's Witness model, full size and compact, as well as a special "hunting" model. I can only speak for the compact that I had, it was a piece of crap, as was EAA's customer service on the matter. Took a bath on that pistol, but it was a cheap lesson on not doing business with the company ever again. They told me the pistol was only suitable for the 40 S&W level loads and that they where not interested in having any kind of look at the Jam-O-Matic POS they had imported. Lots of guys have the full size ones and give favorable reports, so take it for what it's worth...one instance of poor service and product.

Absolutely concur with kciH. This is a match grade pistol that is up to the task for hunting and personal defense. Hopefully they are still out there.

I have no idea why the 10 cartridge has become such an orphan, as it is really the "30-06" of the handgun world, for the same reasons mentioned above.

One man's opinion.

Steve

Depends what you plan on using the pistol for. I love my Glock 20. It takes a beating and can dish one out when it needs to. The 1911 frame 10mm's are prettier, a bit more accurate, and a great platform overall.

My 10mm is my go anywhere, do anything gun. If 15+1 rounds of 700fpe (+/-) won't do the job, then I really needed to evaluate the situation a lot better than I did, and might deserve to have my dna removed from the gene pool.

Double Tap Ammunition makes some outstanding ammo, that loads the 10mm up to its full potential. If you reload you can come pretty close to their specs. On the other end of the spectrum, you can load ammo the is equal to 40 short and wimpy (S&W) power levels, or even lighter if you so desire.

I really like the comparison to the 30-06 of the rifle world...it does everything for the pistol world that the '06 does for the rifle world.

Decide what you want the pistol for, how much money you want to spend, and go from there. You have picked a grat caliber and no matter what you choose, you should be happy.

rhino57,

The Kimber would be a good choice as mentioned by kciH. If time is no issue and some large gun shows are up and coming nearby, consider a S&W 1006, either used or if you are real lucky, new.

The 1006's are full sized stainless autos, ambidextrous, some had Novax sights or adj., DA/SA. The single action needs to be cleaned up slightly, Brownell use to sell the third generation jigs for trigger work. They function well with all types of ammo, fully supported case/barrel.

Another oldie is the Colt Delta Elite in 10 mm, although Colt had problems with early production. But it is a good 1911 platform.

The 10 mm is too good of a cartridge to let go.

Hoopie,

www.gunsamerica.com
www.gunbroker.com
www.auctionarms.com

There is a plentitude of the Kimbers, Dan Wesson, Smith and Wesson, and Colt pistols on these websites.

If you are going to buy a 1911 I would stay very far away from anything that says Colt on it in 10mm unless you are going to buy one for investment rather than quality. The Deltas don't compare to the Kimber in features, quality, or price. You could buy a delta for $600-1000+, then put another $1000 into it and you'll have a Kimber with a nicer trigger that's worth about $700 if you go to sell it.

I saw this thread and it really piqued my interest. I'd considered getting a Glock 20 for quite a while, but never got around to it. What was/is the 'AO' mentioned in the first post? Also, I wasn't aware that Kimber made a 10MM. I've been drooling over a Kimber Raptor .45 that my local dealer recently got in. They are a Master Stocking Dealer, so if Kimber makes it, they can get it.
Thanks in advance for whatever info you can pass along.
Lee.

I'd go with a S & W 1006 series (used) or the Kimber for a new pistol. Both will give you the best flexibility as far as bullet choice, reloads, or high performance ammo. I couldn't find the 10 I was looking for, so I bought a .40 S&W. I love it. Right after I bought mine, two beautiful matched used Smith 1006s came into the shop... if I had the dough, I would have a nice 10, but I'll have to keep looking... oh well...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=36600842

Don't know the seller, but the price is right on that pistol. Probabaly $25 shipping and $25 transfer fee from your dealer.

Rhino, I guess you asked the right people! Best of luck on your choice. There are allot of nice handguns out there. JP

I saw this thread and it really piqued my interest. I'd considered getting a Glock 20 for quite a while, but never got around to it. What was/is the 'AO' mentioned in the first post? Also, I wasn't aware that Kimber made a 10MM. I've been drooling over a Kimber Raptor .45 that my local dealer recently got in. They are a Master Stocking Dealer, so if Kimber makes it, they can get it.
Thanks in advance for whatever info you can pass along.
Lee.
Auto Ordnance, Mine is tagged Thompson also. JP

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=36600842

Don't know the seller, but the price is right on that pistol. Probabaly $25 shipping and $25 transfer fee from your dealer.


kciH,
The reserve hasn't been met @ $800. Who know what it will go for. What do you think it is worth? It's not going for $850 with a reserve of over $800 and the $25 and $25.
Thanks,
Greg

I saw that exact same pistol (well, you know...) at the gun show today for $575. It may have been fired but was in superb condition... I wouldn't move on the auction pistol.

Local gunshop has/had one for $850 NIB. Next time I'm there I'll see if they still have it.

I've seen them going for less than that but it was when they where in production, which I don't believe is the case currently.

They also made an Eclipse version of the pistol but I never saw one. The checkered frame would be a nice addition on the 10mm and the adjustable night sights are sweet. I'm not sure if the 10mm variation had all the same features as the Custom Shop .45's though.

I guess I haven't seen the 10mm Eclipse yet because they are "new".

Eclipse Custom II 10mm

The powerful 10mm cartridge is known for its tremendous energy and flat trajectory. When chambered in a 1911 pistol it becomes a wonderful defense/carry cartridge. Some even swear by it for hunting. Based on customer requests, Kimber is producing a limited number of Eclipse Custom II pistols in this great cartridge. With all the standard Eclipse family features but with a traditional (internal) extractor, the Eclipse Custom II 10mm is a full size 1911 with a stainless steel slide and frame. The striking, two-tone Eclipse finish, gray/black laminated grips, three dot (green) Meprolight night sights, black small parts plus match grade barrel, trigger and barrel bushing make this pistol something special. Availability is limited and suggested list price is $1,208.


http://www.kimberamerica.com/pr.php#eclipsecustom10

I was piqued by both the capability and the semi-rarity of the 10mm cartridge. After doing some research on the forums and the gun auction sites, I made a trade for a S&W 1006 in great condition. I suppose I put $450-525 into my trade, so I'd say I got an average deal. Wasn't really looking for a stellar deal so much as I was an affordable 10mm in good condition in a platform other than Glock.

My 1006 is in as close to new condition as one can get without spending an extra 100-200 on the "NIB" label. It shoots pretty good, but I do have to say that I much prefer the single action trigger on my ParaOrd P14 Ltd. However, I really like the decocker DA/SA functionality of the 1006.

In a perfect world, I would have a spare $900 to spend on a Kimber 10mm, but I'm perfectly happy with my 1006, and I think if you can find a nice one in the $400-500 range, you'll be plenty happy.

Given the limited options of firearms in the 10mm caliber, it will pay in the long run to take your time and pick the weapon that best suits your needs.

Enjoy!

Hello again fellows,

Good to see a few more members from the tribe of ten.

kciH mentioned it as a hunting cartridge, and I confess I must agree, I think with a little imagination that it has a great deal of potential, espiecally if you give the good folks at Beartooth a call regarding the excellent 200 grain hard cast bullet.

I honestly have not shot it over the screens, and have only fired twenty of these, but was impressed that they shot into a tight cluster taking out the center X. I imagine that a bullet so chambered at 1150/ 1200 fps would be fairly decisive in the field, fired from a platform that I practice with more than any other.

Load development is on hold this minute, until I make it back to the world, so if you all get busy, I expect that you can have this one figured out before I come home, reckon? I'm using Blue Dot.

When I was hunting bear in Maine, the rules say that a fellow has to unload his guns before he exits the woods, and I was real good about that. I did, however, keep my Kimber in my right hand with the action open, magazine in my left hand, ready to load that dude in the slight chance that I happened to stumble between a sow and her cubs in the dark. Reckon I could have been in action in about a second, and that option would not nearly be as fast with my Ruger Blackhawk. Big comfort for me.

Well fellows, you all take care of yourself, and get out there and shoot those 10s!

Steve

If it's primarily hunting your wanting the gun for, there was an unususal RUger Blackhawk convertible made in 38-40 and 10mm.

The cylinder is long for a 10mm, so you can load the bullet of choice out a ways and get more powder in the case. I'm just starting to work up some loads for this 10mm. I've easily pushed 180 gr Hornady jacketed HP to 1265 fps. Have not tried lead yet.

These convertibles are a great platform for the 10mm, if you can find one.

If you're going to carry a Blackhawk for hunting you might as well make it a .41, .44, or .45. Lotta gun to carry to shoot a 10mm. Besides, the real power out of that revolver comes with handloads and the 38-40 cylinder, not to difficult to get 1600fps with a 200gr bullet.

This revolver is pretty much a diversion from what we have been talking about, but they where a special run made for Buckeye sports. 32 H&R/32-20, 10mm/38-40, and 44 Mag/44-40, I believe. In addition to the chamberings there is a symbol on top of the frame. Another distinctive feature is that the grip frame is all steel, as opposed to aluminum on most Blackhawks.

These are the .32 and .40 cal variations.

If you're going to carry a Blackhawk for hunting you might as well make it a .41, .44, or .45. Lotta gun to carry to shoot a 10mm. Besides, the real power out of that revolver comes with handloads and the 38-40 cylinder, not to difficult to get 1600fps with a 200gr bullet.

This revolver is pretty much a diversion from what we have been talking about, but they where a special run made for Buckeye sports. 32 H&R/32-20, 10mm/38-40, and 44 Mag/44-40, I believe. In addition to the chamberings there is a symbol on top of the frame. Another distinctive feature is that the grip frame is all steel, as opposed to aluminum on most Blackhawks.

These are the .32 and .40 cal variations.

Your right, but I've never gotten a chance to try the 38-40 as that cylinder got lost before I bought the gun at an estate sale in Phoenix. I'm sure someone in this world has the loose 38-40 cylinder and doesn't know what to do w/ it.

If you're out there w/ my lost 38-40 cylinder...please let me know!

I have a G20 that I bought new in early '96. I am nearing 45,000 rounds thru the factory barrel. No, that's not a typo-45,000 rounds!
I shoot factory ammo, handloads, jacketed, hard-cast, DoubleTap- you name it! No leading, no fouling, no FTF or FTE, except for 1 problem mag that I quickly discarded.
My G20 has been the MOST accurate of any of my several Glocks. Also the most versatile, and usually my daily CCW. I guess you could call it my "go-to gun".
My 1st generation- pre Enhanced- Delta Elite took considerable time for break-in before accuracy met or exceeded my G20.
But it still does not come close to my Glocks(any of them) for reliability.
I also own a S&W 610 (scoped) that I have hunted with. Good gun!
My kimber Target II is a range queen-decent weapon, but far too pretty to use in the field!

The best idea I can offer you on a 10mm purchase is to choose the purpose for it, and tailor your decision to what will meet those needs.
Also, start reading the 10-Ring on www.glocktalk.com. That's the place to get education about the 10s!

I just bought a Delta Elite and it's awesome. Hard to find up here anyways.

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that other than a few rare 6" plus long slide 1911 model handguns the Glock 20 was/is the only handgun out there with a heavy slide designed for the 10mm pressures.

One of the problems that people with the 1911 style guns chambered in 10mm have is the slide velocity is to fast to reliably feed the next bullet. This slide weight problem can be compensated for by installing heavier recoil springs in the 22 to 24lbs range though. It's not a perfect fix but it does help alot.

So when considering which 10mm too buy the Glock20/29 are renouned for their reliability and the other guns aren't.

I have a highly modified Colt Delta Elite with a 6" Barsto barrel and a G20 with a 5" KKM barrel. For reliability/durability I'd pick the Glock everytime.

Not to start anything... I won't buy a Glock anyways... but I've always heard that the G20/29 is the one you don't run reloads/hotter loads in, or lead anyways... is the KKM barrel the fix for this? Does it have the Ballard type rifling or the polygonal style?

I had probably already shown this S&W 1006 here. I got it in 1991. A week or two later I got one for my son for his return from Desert Storm. His took a few days for my FFL friend to find. They were already fading from production in favor of the 40 S&W. My below SIG P226 still has not been fired. I added the 357 SIG interchangeable bbl. and loaded several rounds for both(40 & 357). I got 1400 once fired 40's from a friend. Most(all Winchesters) I have sized and primed, some loaded, and some necked down and loaded for the 357. I'm waiting on delivery of some 147 grn Hornady XTP BT's for loading for the 357 and will then head for the range. Deer hunters should be clear of the ranges by then.

The 10mm is still KING. 10mm Auto, 40 S&W, and 357 SIG reloads are shown for comparison.

Not to start anything... I won't buy a Glock anyways... but I've always heard that the G20/29 is the one you don't run reloads/hotter loads in, or lead anyways... is the KKM barrel the fix for this? Does it have the Ballard type rifling or the polygonal style?

Your not starting anything everyone has different tastes. I personally prefer the looks and feel of my Colt Delta Elite over my G20. I'm also realistic in that I don't care what it looks like because of the G20's excellent performance and ammo capacity. I'd trust my life to my G20 before my Colt D/E.

All of the Glocks including the G20/29 have the polygonal rifling and unsupported chambers. So the answer is yes an aftermarket such as those made by KKM Precision or Barsto with standard rifling, supported chambers and a heavier recoil spring is the fix that is needed to handle the top loads.

I got bit by the 10mm bug a while ago, but finally got one recently. In the past, I had thought about the Glock, but I have sold/traded all five of the Glocks I owned previously. I liked their reliability (except for my G19), but my love for them ended there. Poor ergonomics, unsafe chambers with high pressure loads, and inability to safely shoot cast bullets. Yes, I know everyone will argue those points, but those are my beliefs. Don't try to change my mind and I won't try to change yours!

Anyway, I stopped by the S&W Factory Store, and they had eight 10mm's there. The manager said they were from the Armorer's Course. They looked like they had a few scratches on them from being disassembled, but barely shot, if at all.

I picked up a 1006, and a friend got a 1076 (shorter barrel, frame mounted decocker). I use a 170gr cast bullet (only .40/10mm mould I have right now) over a max charge of Unique. This gives me outstanding performance and accuracy, while the all SS construction makes the recoil feel less than that of a polymer framed .40.

I sold some leftover Glock mags from the last sale at the last gunshow and picked up a few spare mags for the S&W.

Sometime, I'll pick up a 200gr mould and see what accuracy I can get from that. But, when I do finally go on that boar hunt next year, the 1006 will be the handgun I bring along with me.

OK,
Sill looking at the 10mm'. Opinions please.

I've eliminated the Colt Delta Elite...never buy used!

Eliminated the S&W for the same reason above.

Eliminated the EAA Witness as I can't find anyone that sells them and some bad reviews from others here.

That leaves 2 choices that I have not eliminated.
The Kimber and the new Dan Wesson 7 pointsman or something.

Thoughts on these 2 in 10mm please.
Thanks,
Greg

Don't have anything bad to say about my Kimber.

I own a few DW revolvers and they are top notch shooters, but I don't own any of their autos. My only downside to the DW would be if they are going to be around, who will own them, etc, etc. CZ is at LEAST the third owner of Dan Wesson, and I believe they are the fourth in actuality. I wouldn't let that stop me from buying one, but it might be a concern for you.

A good friend has a Dan Wesson Pointman 3 .45 ACP and it is a dream to shoot. I don't know what kind of price you are looking at spending, but you really can't go wrong with either gun. They are based off the most popular handgun of all time... Neither company has quality/reliability issues. Kimber has been traded around at least as many times as Dan Wesson....

I agree with kciH & Matt that Kimber & DW should be great choices. I have four Kimber 1911's & couldn't be happier. While my personal experience with DW is limited to revolvers, from having looked at their 1911's and talked to owners, I'd buy one. ...and I'm really picky!

OK I went the cheap route. I purchased the Witness 10mm. If I like the round I will add other more expensive weapons even though the ammo is expensive compared to others. Does anyone know who sells holsters to fit the Witness and magazine carriers, looking for waist carry style.? I can't find any Fobus but I do have a shoulder rig that will accommodate the 10 and 1 spare 14 round mag.
Thanks,
Greg

You should be looking for holster for a CZ, that is what the Witness is a clone of...will probably open lots of options for you.

Pays to handload for the 10mm in a big way.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

There's a link to a maker of 10mm ammo that might save you some money on your shooting.

or go with a 38 Casull if you like high velocity. Do a yahoo search for Casull firearms. The 38 is a .45 ACP, necked down to 9mm, and is 115 grs at 1800 fps in a 5" barrel. Why spend the extra money for 10mm ammo, components, mags, slides, barrels, etc,, when the .45 Super can do the same thing? All you need is heavier springs, a shock buff, and a fully supported barrel, and you can get 185 gr jhp's to 1400 fps, no problem at all. If you want lots more power, do a search for Clark Custom Guns, and check out the 460 Rowland, which in a 5" 1911, gets 185 gr jhp's to 1500 fps, beating the 10mm all hollow.

I'm looking into a wildcat rd, using cut down .45 Win Mag cases, necked to 9mm, for 90 grs at 2000 fps in a 5" barrel.

How is 460 Rowland, 45 Super, 45 Win Mag, or 38 Casull ever going to be cheaper than 10MM ammo?

Its sad to see the 10MM in such decline, I really wanted one before I bought my .40, for the cost of reloading, the 40 is cheaper only in cases and small volume of powder.

I'm just sorry CZ doesn't make a 10mm in the 75 model. I had one in 9mm and I don't recall a jam at any time, from brand new to trade-in. Yes, I know, shoulda kept it.

I'm just sorry CZ doesn't make a 10mm in the 75 model. I had one in 9mm and I don't recall a jam at any time, from brand new to trade-in. Yes, I know, shoulda kept it.

I'll second that, I'd snap one up in a hearbeat.

OK a review of the Witness 10mm that I bought 2-12. Well the first one was shipped with the wrong magazine, a 10 not the advertised 15. More importantly the firing pin didn't function. Thanks to a great dealer who swapped it out for me.
This one had the right mag and shot well. No jams, Shot low and to the left but that was me I am sure. Shot 200 grain PMC. Hey for $415 I really like it. The 10 is really nice but now I need to shoot 1200 to 1350 FPS rounds out of it. The Wonder finish is nice too. Now if I can find a conceal carry holster and double mag holster I will be all set. ASC the gun range I belong to here in Houston even has about 5 brands of assorted shells in this caliber around $18 to $20 a box of 50. With the 10% discount it's still a whole lot more than 9's, 40's, and 45acp. But the round is nice, it takes down easily for clean up and I would recommend it to anyone with larger hands, not for the small wristed fellows.
Greg

Here's a link to some testing of a Model 21 Glock, .45 ACP, which might be of interest on Glocks in general?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658

As for the 10mm: have had one for 9 months now,
it's worked fine, even though being an older/earlier version.
10mm ammunition is somewhat underloaded by several of the ammo makers out there, but, full power loads are also obtainable as well. The 10mm is nipping on the heels of a .41 magnum (not saying it is as good or the 'exact' equal of a .41 magnum, but it is right up there just the same, with full power ammo).

Have recently obtained a Glcok 21, like it most well also.

to new here to know how to have the above come up in blue so it can just be clicked on, but here's the location just the same. Now watch that web site come up in blue when I post this!! oh well
Hope this adds something here... regards to all

I have a glock 20 and have had it since 1991 when they first came out. Glocks aren't pretty but they are sure shooters. A great source for hot factory ammunition is Double Tap. They load all different bullet weights to about 760 ft. lbs. 15 shots of these sure gives you alot of firepower.

Doubletap is a great source for wild 10MM ammo... I believe Winchester is the only major manufacturer loading the 1200 FPS 200 grain bullet...

I briefly considered the Witness when looking for a 10, the one I handled felt very sloppy and didn't fit very well... it had decent sights and a good balance though...

Guys,

I noticed nobody mentioned my beloved S & W Model 610 Revolver. A super piece, if I must say so. It uses half moon or full moon clips(which are faster than speedloaders in experienced hands) and I can shoot .40 s&w's out of it too. It was a bit pricey to acquire, being that it is an original run 610. Can't use my Glock 20 legally for deer here in PA., so I had to get a 10mm wheelgun.

Doc Holidude

Guys,

I noticed nobody mentioned my beloved S & W Model 610 Revolver. A super piece, if I must say so. It uses half moon or full moon clips(which are faster than speedloaders in experienced hands) and I can shoot .40 s&w's out of it too. It was a bit pricey to acquire, being that it is an original run 610. Can't use my Glock 20 legally for deer here in PA., so I had to get a 10mm wheelgun.

Doc Holidude

Fine looking gun!

Now if I can find a conceal carry holster and double mag holster I will be all set. ASC the gun range I belong to here in Houston even has about 5 brands of assorted shells in this caliber around $18 to $20 a box of 50. With the 10% discount it's still a whole lot more than 9's, 40's, and 45acp. But the round is nice, it takes down easily for clean up and I would recommend it to anyone with larger hands, not for the small wristed fellows.
Greg

Mine are used in the Galco sholder riggs for the S&W Model 39/59. They fit verry well, and are easy to put into action.

Lee L.

Thanks leverite...though I stand corrected! I see on page 2 of this thread, pawnbroker mentioned the 610. :o My bad.

Doc Holidude

I've got the Kimber Stainless Target II in 10mm. Someday I'll take me a deer with it. Great gun and great gun to shoot. I also have a Glock in 10mm. I just wish the ammo was cheaper.