Comment on this Tech Note:

Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61)

Comment on this Tech Note:

Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61)
Marshall Stanton
I can tell sir that you are a thinking man. I read your article and printed a copy for further review.
My first impression is that you are right on the mark. I would have to re-crunch the numbers to find any fault with with your view on the subject. I can tell that you learned from your mentors and have expanded on that.
I am a small man and have no trouble shooting a large frame revolver while hitting my mark to 75 yards. My experince is limited up to .44 mag and heavy .45 Colt loads.
They are as effective as they need to be. If I need more, I would look to the rifle rack.
You did a very good write.
Cheezywan

Well said!

Accuracy, controllability, and correct bullet design = gut pile.

How's that for a summary? :D

Marshall Stanton,
I have now read your review for the third time. I will not even attempt to recrunch the work that you did here. MikeG said alot with his post.
You worked hard on this one. You now have me thinking harder than I want to on the subject.
Thank you for your hard work. I will continue to re-think all of this.
You asked for critique, right? I would have liked to have seen the Federal .41 magnum 250gr. Castcore load included.
Only because it was there for the other availible loads.
Thanks for keeping me from thinking about my job,
Cheezywan

Hey Marshall,

Excellent article! So much of hunting success is first about being able to hit the target. After hitting the target it is all about the bullet. Time and history have proven your bullets get the job done and great velocity is simply not a positive component in the successful harvesting of deer size game.

Like you, I have studied Elmer Keith's approach to handguns. In the latter years of his life, the big boomers were comming into the market. He even wrote about some of them. Yet when he went to the field, it was with a handy 4" revolver loaded with a mid weight bullet at around 1100 fps or a bit over. The only thing that has really changed is the bullets are better now.

Bill

Having done a lot of handgun hunting for white tail deer, I must agree with the information as presented.My favorite cartridge (revolver) is the .41 mag and while I have used the .44, .357 .45 colt and others there really does not seem to be a nickles worth of difference between any of the over .35 magnum revolvers , on deer.

Actually, I don't see myself hunting anything with a handgun that needs more power than the .41 mag
prefering insyead to use a rifle for grizzlies, cape buffalo and the like. (they are fairly scarce in the midwest.)

Good article.

Regards,Gene

Marshall
A thumbs up on another of your excellent articles. I have enjoyed all of your articles you have posted for us. I like your practical approach to things. Keep up the good work. Someday I would like to see you compile your writings into a book.
Cary

Marshall,
Excellent article! I agree with a previous poster, you HAVE to write a book on handgun hunting! You obviously have too much experience and too much knowlege not to write a book on the subject.

Jim

Interesting Reading Marshall. I don't do as much handgun hunting now as I used to. Was into the metal target competition for a number of years and plunking those Rams at 200 meters required heavy 44 mag loads to knock them over.

I've killed a bunch of black bear with both the 44 mag and 41 mag along with a pile of deer. I eventually went to the 44 with a 255 grain kieth style bullet at around 1350 fps from a 7.5 inch bbl and 1250 from a 5.5 inch bbl. This has been my standard load now for over 25 years. It has graduated from the old Smith model 29 to a 7.5 inch Super Redhawk and a 5.5 inch Redhawk.

I could not tell the difference in killing between the 210 cast 41 mag bullet and the 255 Kieth style on bear or deer.

I have read with interest the gun writers lauds of all the new super magnums coming on the market and often wondered (at least for the lower 48) just what was the necessity of so much power or recoil for deer and black bear sized game.

I know that as far as killing power for the distances I can shoot a handgun the 41 and 44 mag seems to fill the bill and the locker pretty well.

Of course there is tha argument that "you can never own enough guns" and for those that like to collect and shoot the latest big boomers the market has all that could be desired. I have a friend that over the last 30 or 35 years has killed his elk with a different new rifle every year.

Anyway I hope you realize that promoting this kind of commen sense probably won't gain you any laurals.

Thanks for the good article.

Good work, Marshall. Facts and experience vs. irrational fantasies.

Interesting, to say the least!
Marshall, It takes a brave man to go against the hot air blowing from today's rag writers!
Having used a handgun on game since 1956, I can only agree with your findings. I think Meplat Area times Velocity equals Tissue Damage........Period. Weight come into play with Penetration. In most cases there is too much Penetration and not enough Tissue Damage. Whether today's handgun shooters like it or not........we had to trail up with dogs a lot of deer and hogs shot with the #429421. In our part of the country, unlike some other areas, if an animal ran 100 to 150 yards it could be lost. Another problem was blood trail, worst on wild hogs.
When the Meplat Area moved up the at least 73%, we began to see a difference.
Having shot the .44 Magnum for most of the time since 1956, a few years ago I had quite a few bones in my hand replaced. I moved down to the .357 Magnum Smith & Wesson 6" 686 that Smith tricked out for me. I now use a .357" 180 gr. hard cast (heat treated) bullet with a .300" meplat @ 1400'/" MV.
Quite frankly I can see little difference in Tissue Damage for my old .44 Magnum with a 250 gr bullet. If I was still shooting the .44 Mag........I would go with your 250/265 gr with the largest meplat at 1200'/"........but we have discusssed that before!
Keep putting out Facts!.........James

Comment on this Tech Note:

Handgun Hunting Loads-A Critical View (http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/61)


Marshall

It's interesting that you came up with 1100fps as an optimal mv for handgun hunting. So did I, accidently.

Hunting in Alaska to feed my family I developed a load, 20gr 296 under a cast 320gr pb bullet. I had some loading data and tried various loads, backing off to the 20gr charge and finding the recoil negligable and the accuracy optimal.

I gave some handloads to another shooter and told him that those loads were hammers on deer. He chronoed them and was sneering when he told me "they were only around 1100 fps, and I should use 24gr under that bullet to get some velocity."

Seriously, that's an overcharge, don't try that one at home kiddies.

Funniest thing about it is the deer didn't know the mv and all died pretty much instantly.

'Course this was BEFORE THE INTERNET, maybe the deer have better information now.

Regards,

Grizz

I have what may seem to be a simpleton type of question. Would not the same 1100 fps apply to long guns also? I'm making the assumption here that if one prefers a long gun or doesn't own a handgun of hunting status, and doesn't need the velocity , hence the flatter trajectory. Wouldn't this make the rifle a real pussycat to shoot while still retaining all the power needed for adequate close range hunting??

Yup. You are exactly correct.

Hmmm, a 1100-1200 fps bullet in a rifle. Maybe like these Beartooths in the middle of the photo?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Paul5388/360DWwith357and44Mag.jpg

They shoot about 1" at 100 yards loaded in .360 DW brass, but loaded in .357 brass, like the second from the right, there isn't much difference in group size.

Good article Marshall. A real thought provoker, that is sure to complete my conversion from "light and fast" thinking!

BTW, the one on the right is a .44 Mag and the three on the left are 180 gr XTPs in .360 DW brass.

I should have added the OAL for those Beartooth 250 gr RNFPGC in .360 DW brass is 2.15" with a taper crimp using 800X and CCI 400. That's longer than what most .357 Max chambers can handle. Since I loaded those, I have pushed the bullet farther into the case and use an OAL of 1.935" now. The OAL of the 250 gr in .357 Mag brass is 1.77".

Thanks Marshall,
You and I are on the same sheet of music here! ;)

Marshall, I came to the same conclusion this past season. Now, no matter what caliber I'm shooting, if it doesn't get the job done at 1200 fps I'll go up in caliber rather than increase velocity. Thanks for the info! -- Greg

[B]I registered just to tell Mr. Stanton how much I enjoyed and benefitted from this article. I'm new to handgun hunting and have been dazzled by all the ,44mag loads available.

Does this thing have spellcheck?

Does this thing have spellcheck?
Unfortunately, no, the software doesn't have a spell check. I think everyone has slipped up on more than a few occasions, though, so no worries.

There is an edit button for your posts though, if you want to go back and fix something.

I too have observed the mild shooting penatration of cast bullets. I shoot your 250g GC .41 in .41RemMag revolvers. My hunting is loaded to 1150-1250fps depending on the gun I use. To date I have never recovered a bullet from a game animal, be it deer, hog, goat/sheep, bison, or feral cows. Granted I keep my shots to/inside 30 yards, but the bison was at 67, broadside. The bullet broke both shoulders, took out the aorita gang and is still going. I have no need to go with a heavier bullet or faster load when I'm already shooting through bison. The BearTooth Techinical Guide was the smartest $14.00 I've spent in a long time.

Marshall,

You and Mr. Gates have converted me.....1100 to 1250 fps is my target for velocity with a nice, heavy/wide hard cast pill. Didn't happen over night, but the more I listened and thought about your/Gates input, the more it made sense.

So maybe you can teach a old dog new tricks?

Dan

Thanks so much for your research and the excellent article. Not being a silhouette shooter, this makes complete sense, and shooting my 4 5/8" Super Blackhawk should be a lot more fun.

Having cut my teeth on the super high velociy ParKer Ackley mindset, it took quite a few Gut Piles before the real facts dawned on me. There was a setback early (1956-1960) using hard cast 4's with small meplat area. We shot deer and hogs.....and most just ran off, only to be trailed up with our dogs.
Then....field tests with wide flat nose cast bullets (pre-expanded!) finally convienced us that those worked!
Add to that a balanced load of weight, meplat, moderate velocity, milder recoil....and now we had a real game load.
I believe it's a waste of time with the .44 Magnum handgun to have any weight over 265 gr (with a minumim 78% meplat), hard cast heat treated, and at a velocity of 1200'/" .....I have just killed to much game (hogs and deer) with that load to be convinced otherwise!
Regards, James

Mr Gates,

Got a question for you. You have the perfect background for this. Let's say we take the 265 gr BTB with a .340 meplat and drive it a 1200 fps. As you say, it works very well on piggies. If the velocity is increased to 1400, 1600 or 1800 fps, will it work better, the same or worse? Forget recoil and the human factor for a moment. I am wondering if 400 fps (up close) really buys us anything in stopping power to put the pig down. I am really wondering if tht 400 fps extra velocity acutally does a poorer job of putting the pig down? I have a suspicion that more velocity only buys us a better trajectory until velocities start running over 2000 fps. Does the lower velocity give the bullet a longer dwell time in the animal and cause a greater reaction than the one going 400 fps faster?

Thanks for your thoughts James.

Excellent Bill! I'll throw another factor in to really stir to pot. By increasing velocity on the hard cast with big meplats you my increase cavity, but decrease penetration!
That factor turned up at the John Linebaugh Seminar, when testing the Dixie Terminator and other hard cast loads..
Regards, James

James,
Was there a definitive speed break where if you added fps the penetration was reduced? Also, was the reduced penetration contributed to yaw, bullet deformation or other factor?

They found a few incjes less penetration between 1200'/", 1300'/", and 1400'/"....but as I said the cavity was bigger. The Terminator (730"-730 grs) has an almost flat point. It appears that the pressure on the huge meplat was building up as the velocity increased. There was no yaw, bullet and alignment of cavity still straight. I do not think this would have happened on a round nose solid????? Records show the it wad within a couple inches of the 416 with a Nosler Partition bullet.....see report on the forum. or tech note, of Dixie Slugs. There was no deformatiom of the slug/bullet. I designed the big flat point to give the maximum of cavity and still get deep penetration. It opened some eyes, to say the least. I ahve another design, .727"-600 gr slug/bullet we are testing now with our new powder that will have additional velocity. If everything works out, it will give over 1600'/" from a 20" Hasting rifled barrel. It is, more or less, a copy of the 600 gr Greener load. We hope to have ut ready for testing at the Kinebaugh Seminar.
All in all, what this does prove is that these big flat nose slug/bullets produce large cavity and penetrtion very consistant. If one took time to look over the results that Todd Corder got when he put down that 2000+ pound Angus bull....you will be able to see what I am talking about.
Regards, James

Thanks James. Any thoughts on a cup nose changing that pressure bubble, if deformation can be mitigated?

I just don't know about that. I do know that a truncated cone nose of 45 angle does charge the direction of the pressure to 90 from the axis of the bullet and reduce the pressure build up on the flat nose. If fact that is the design we are testing now.
Regards, James

Mr Gates,

Got a question for you. You have the perfect background for this. Let's say we take the 265 gr BTB with a .340 meplat and drive it a 1200 fps. As you say, it works very well on piggies. If the velocity is increased to 1400, 1600 or 1800 fps, will it work better, the same or worse? Forget recoil and the human factor for a moment. I am wondering if 400 fps (up close) really buys us anything in stopping power to put the pig down. I am really wondering if tht 400 fps extra velocity acutally does a poorer job of putting the pig down? I have a suspicion that more velocity only buys us a better trajectory until velocities start running over 2000 fps. Does the lower velocity give the bullet a longer dwell time in the animal and cause a greater reaction than the one going 400 fps faster?

Thanks for your thoughts James.



I was at the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Miss. last year and we shot my 500 Linebaugh with the 525 grain WLFN at 1096 FPS and it got 50" of penetration. The same bullet (525 grain WLFN) shot from the 50 Alaskan revolver, at 1570 FPS penetrated the same 50". More speed does not neccesarly mean more pentration.

I sure agree! There is a balance of velocity, bullet weight, and Meplat Area that gives deep penetration and cavity. we are still learnig about that combo! As the Meplat Area increases, all other being the same, penetration is less, but cavity is larger. I do not think it can be calculated, only observed for actual tests on game.
Then we come back to how much penetration is needed on game, large and small? Standing there, calm and collected, shooting test targets is not the same as delivering a death shot on dangerous game....no matter how powerful (or over-powerful the gun may be)....recoil and follow up shots must be taken into consideration!
At the sake of being thrashed about the head and shoulders....I do think many of these handguns are too much!
Now, Bill M is not a little fellow (bigger than my 6' 3 1/2") and I saw him work on the Gorilla Gong befire we tried for that big noar hog!....and I am convinced his gun and load was more that adequate...and he could control it in the shoot-step left-and shoot again. That drill was for him to be clear if I had to light off a Terminator.
Linebaugh testing is great to compare one load against another....but the final choice of what to use on dangerous game requires some thought!
I still say that control is he final factor! That's why I carry my Rem 870/Hastings rifled barrel with Terminators!...and I have been shooting/hunting with handguns since 1956.
Regards, James

Per James Gates previous post, that hunt in the thick brush for the big hog was one of the most exciting things I ever did! Thank you again James for an awesome experience. For the record, I was shooting my 5 1/2" ported 44 mag Redhawk with a 325gr BTB LCMN gc bullet running at 1330 fps out of the muzzle. The bullet nose was annealed for somewhat of a Nosler Partition effect. Accuracy and control was not a problem. A mean 400lb hog was though.

The more I read and study on what actually happens in game, it strikes me that (assuming LBT type hard cast bullets) we are looking for 1000 to 1200 fps striking velocity our of our handgun loads. More velocity demands tougher bullets and becomes a monumental issue to 100% control the load unless you've had a lot of practice at it. I think that velocity beyond 1200 fps mostly buys you trajectory but little in stopping power. That is beyond 1200 fps as a striking velocity. If you need more penetration, that is then controlled by increased bullet weight, adjusting meplat and alloy... but not by increasing velocity. I have had some interesting converstations with Marshall Stanton and he knows some very good handgun hunters that feel 1000 fps is the top striking velocity that's ideal. I really don't know but am trying to "connect the dots" and make sense of what we are observing. (ok... now I'm scared. I'm starting to talk like James Gates!).

Back to my previous post, I suspect too fast is just as bad as too slow for taking tough game with a handgun. I do not know where the magic velocity is because there are so many varations in game and cartridges. I am pretty sure though that seeking maximum velocity as an end unto itself does not mean tough game taking ability. Sometimes it's the opposite. If we factor in recoil and blast, it might be the worst possible combination for dangerous/tough game.

All this said... how much meplat is enough? How much is too much? How much of all these factors (and others not mentioned) give us "enough"? It would have to vary by the game. When it comes to 400 lb hogs with an attitude, maybe we only reach "enough" with something like the Dixie Terminator since just harvesting the animal is not the issue. I suspect the same is true with the great bears. Never willingly give them an even break! So in handguns, maybe we are mostly trying to make the most out of less than "enough". Not sure. I am just thinking out loud. What do you guys think?

After a great deal of testing, we begin to realize the importace of meplat area....no mater if it the complete area of an expanded bullet....or in the design of non-expanding bullets....it works the same.
We are now testing another big game slug/bullet called the Dixie Tusker. The is a .727"-600 gr truncated cone with a .450" meplat. With the new powder we have reached close to 1700'/" within the allowed presure of the 12 3" mag. Unlike the Dixie Terminator with a full caliber meplat....This new load will not created the massive cavity the Terminator does.....but should drive much deeper. Because the weight is 130 grs less the recoil is the same....and can be controlled. The frontal pressure should not build up as much as the Terminator.
Now...this new load does not fly in the face of our thoughts of 1200'/" or so! The new load is designed for one thing.....to flatten out trajetory, maintain cotrol (recoil) and drive deeper than Terminator. The angle of the truncated nose with direct fluild from tissue at 90 degrees to the path of the bullet. I feel this is very important in non-expanding bullets. I also feel this is important in handgun bullet design! The 44 Truncated Nose Wadcutter, that I was involved with, is the same design.....and has proven an outstanding design.
As I have said before....all this can not be calculated! But, we are approaching the ideal design that will penetrate deep, not tumble in tissue, and create a good cavity....and still be able to control.
All this is not that important in thin skin game, but is most important when dealing with large and/or dangerous game. I direct your attention to the actual report posted on Dixie that covers the use of a Terminator on a 2000 pound Angus bull. I do not have a clue as to how a handgun would have performed?
Again...there is a balance to seek, whatever you are shooting!
Remember that penetation is a product of retained weight and impact velocity....where tissue damage is a product of retained Meplat Area and impact velocity! Somewhere between is the ideal!.....but that ideal is based on whether you are hunting thin skin game....or large and/or dangerous game.
After all, just what are you trying to prove and for what?
Regards, James

finally someone turned on the lights.I always wondered why the old timers were able to kill anything with their pipsquick loads.now I feel better,no I havent done much but I load my 30/06 with 13 gr red dot at 1680fts.and my ruger 45 colt to 980 fts.man I dont want any more bang than that.my 30/30 gets 311291 and 32 gr of 2520 and I am sure the deer will never know.all my military rifles get the red dot treatment and lead bullets.:rolleyes::confused::D

It only took one deer season for me to switch to a WLN and WFN from jacketed bullets. The dismal penetration of expanding bullets was my reason even though they killed the deer. More velocity meant worse penetration.
That was long ago and with more revolver killed deer then I can remember, it was the right decision and I agree with all that has been posted here.
As far as velocity, I have another way, the right way to load for deer. I leave the chrongraph in the basement and ONLY work for the most accurate loads. I don't care how slow or fast they are as long as the boolit goes to the sights and gives me tight groups. I might then check the velocity, etc just for fun. I will not up a load because it is slower then what someone else shoots. I don't care how much more powder a case will hold.
Accuracy and the proper alloy and meplat size will do whatever is asked.
Some of my boolits and calibers require a little more velocity to reach the accurate point while others are slower. Makes no difference in the field.
It works so well I sold my deer rifle LOOOOONG ago and don't miss it.

when i was living in iowa and handgun hunting for deer i kinda( for whatever reason, i don't know) settled on the 1100 fps range with heavyweight cast bullets in my 44mag and 45 colt. i guess my thought was that 1) it's a deer 2) most of the places that i hunted it would have been hard to shoot much beyond 60-70 yards anyway 3) if you can't shoot it you cant shoot it.
i've always been a gun nut and love to read everything that i can get my hands on, anyhow, when one of the guys asked what i thought of him getting a raging bull in 454 for deer. i told him that it was overkill and offered to load some extra 45 colt loads for him to use. he bought the gun and passed on my offer, funny thing tho, year after year i put deer down with one mabey 2 shots and you'd hear john empty that crazy thing, more than once he blew the fingertips off his gloves and once it was warm enough that he wasn't wearing gloves and darn near burnt a finger off... not to mention having to wear ear muffs, meanwhile my loads are pushing a 265gr wfngc bullet along at a bit over 1100fps are wonderfully accurate, are no louder than a 12guage trap load and are so enjoyable that you could shoot them all day if you wanted too. and they will dump a deer!!
sorry for getting long winded but i guess that what i'm trying to say is that velocity is not everything, even an extra 300fps won't kill a deer any deader! sure it will shoot flatter but i rarely shot much over 50yds with an iron sighted revolver anyway.
in reading a couple of the recent posts on this thread i thinki'd rather give up a little velocity than have a bullet with a smaller meplat... the "splash" effect of that nose displacing tissue and sending shockwaves thru the tissue is what puts a critter down, that's why manufacturers of bullets such as beartooth are so important to the handgun hunter.

being an extremist in the curiosity department I connected the weight vs velocity dots toward the other extreme. I've now got a load that runs sub-sonic, penetrates like a 45/70, and is proven gong-accurate out to 116 yards. this report was the first effort:

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?p=55839#55839

I upped the charge slightly and got velocities in the 950 fps vicinity with a load that recoils barely more than 44 special from my 5.5" redhawk. I consider this the best woods carry load in the world. I'm pretty much done experimenting by now. I'll fool around with different charges just out of curiosity, a smaller charge would reduce the recoil, but I'm sold on the sub-sonic load.

this report was the new improved version, my goal was to get the results at 50 yards that the original load got at point blank range. I achieved that and got the trajectory up enough to make it a practical hunting load as well as the best stopper job I've found.

http://empresspublications.com/xyz/report.htm

I'll be curious to see if anyone else pursues this direction. So far I can't think of a single downside, unless it's the fact that the round will only fit in redhawk length cylinders. I'm going to customize my B92 to feed this load, and then I'll have trapdoor performance from the handiest carbine on the planet. happy camper syndrome...

Regards,

Grizz