I went out and did some shooting today and my S&W Model 19-7 broke on me. I bought this gun used about 8 or 9 years ago. I got it from a friend and it was as new when I got it. I estimate I have put around 1500-2000 rounds through it since I have had it. Most of the rounds have been my own reloads except for a few boxes of factory rounds. I never go above the max load and most of the time I load below the max. The problem that has developed is a fracture starting at what I understand is the forcing cone and travels from 1/8" to 3/16" into the barrel. It is on the bottom. The cylinder will not close into the gun. That is how I discovered the problem.The rest of the gun looks to be in fine shape. I have a few questions I would like some help with.
1. Is this model of S&W a lighter duty model?
2. Is this something that could have been caused from too high of pressure?
3. Could this problem be caused from metal fatigue?
4. Is this area a weak spot on this model of S&W?
5. Can this gun be repaired or should just I scrap it and get a new one?
I stopped at a local gun shop on the way home from shooting but found out the shop had just went out of business recently. Bummer.
Thanks in advance for any information or advice you could give me on this problem.
Cary

I went out and did some shooting today and my S&W Model 19-7 broke on me. I bought this gun used about 8 or 9 years ago. I got it from a friend and it was as new when I got it. I estimate I have put around 1500-2000 rounds through it since I have had it. Most of the rounds have been my own reloads except for a few boxes of factory rounds. I never go above the max load and most of the time I load below the max. The problem that has developed is a fracture starting at what I understand is the forcing cone and travels from 1/8" to 3/16" into the barrel. It is on the bottom. The cylinder will not close into the gun. That is how I discovered the problem.The rest of the gun looks to be in fine shape. I have a few questions I would like some help with.
1. Is this model of S&W a lighter duty model?
2. Is this something that could have been caused from too high of pressure?
3. Could this problem be caused from metal fatigue?
4. Is this area a weak spot on this model of S&W?
5. Can this gun be repaired or should just I scrap it and get a new one?
I stopped at a local gun shop on the way home from shooting but found out the shop had just went out of business recently. Bummer.
Thanks in advance for any information or advice you could give me on this problem.
Cary


I to killed a beautiful model 19 a long while ago. I'll try to answer some of your questions and I'm sure other folks on this forum will help some too.

1. Is this model of S&W a lighter duty model?

Yes. The model 19 was the K frame 38 special gun with heat treated cylinder and frame designed to handle .357 full power loads. The problem was full power loads digested regularly would cause the problems you discribe.

2. Is this something that could have been caused from too high of pressure?

It's not because the loads were to high a pressure it's a cumulative thing caused by firing to many loads of standard .357 pressure.

3. Could this problem be caused from metal fatigue?

If you had fired the number of standard 38 special loads as you've done with the .357 loads you probably would still be shooting. Another factor is you may not know how many of the .357 loads had been fired from that gun before you bought it. That total number could contribute to the metal fatigue causing your problems.

4. Is this area a weak spot on this model of S&W?

Yes. If you want a revolver that will digest bunches of full power .357 loads you need to move on to a larger frame gun such as the N frame or L frame Smiths. The L frame Smith was brought out in fact to address the problems the K framed 357 had.

5. Can this gun be repaired or should just I scrap it and get a new one?

You have two options at this point.

a. Have a gunsmith whom is familiar with S&W revolvers take a look at it.

b. Send it to S&W and have their repair department take a look at it.

These are nice revolvers and it may or may not be cost effective to repair it if it is repairable. If you really do much shooting with full power 357's you might want to look at a revolver built a bit heavier.

I to killed a beautiful model 19 a long while ago. I'll try to answer some of your questions and I'm sure other folks on this forum will help some too.

1. Is this model of S&W a lighter duty model?

Yes. The model 19 was the K frame 38 special gun with heat treated cylinder and frame designed to handle .357 full power loads. The problem was full power loads digested regularly would cause the problems you discribe.

2. Is this something that could have been caused from too high of pressure?

It's not because the loads were to high a pressure it's a cumulative thing caused by firing to many loads of standard .357 pressure.

3. Could this problem be caused from metal fatigue?

If you had fired the number of standard 38 special loads as you've done with the .357 loads you probably would still be shooting. Another factor is you may not know how many of the .357 loads had been fired from that gun before you bought it. That total number could contribute to the metal fatigue causing your problems.

4. Is this area a weak spot on this model of S&W?

Yes. If you want a revolver that will digest bunches of full power .357 loads you need to move on to a larger frame gun such as the N frame or L frame Smiths. The L frame Smith was brought out in fact to address the problems the K framed 357 had.

5. Can this gun be repaired or should just I scrap it and get a new one?

You have two options at this point.

a. Have a gunsmith whom is familiar with S&W revolvers take a look at it.

b. Send it to S&W and have their repair department take a look at it.

These are nice revolvers and it may or may not be cost effective to repair it if it is repairable. If you really do much shooting with full power 357's you might want to look at a revolver built a bit heavier.
Thanks for the prompt reply. You have confirmed my suspicions on this gun. This gun is not designed to do what I want it to do. I want a gun that can take the 357 mag load and and not break on me. I payed $200.00 for it when I bought it eight or nine years ago and I figure it would probably be that much to fix it. I would still have a gun that is too weak for the 357 mag. I like the 4" barrel on this gun. What would be a compairable gun to replace this one with made by S&W or Ruger. This gun is not stainless but stainless does have advantages.
Thanks,
Cary

sometimes you can find a good used Ruger. I think the older ones were called the Security SIx and then they changed them a bit and the name, too.

Look at Tuarus. They make some knock off's of SW at a lower price. Quality is variable, but if you're going used any problems would likely be sorted out already.

the other RUger I was trying to remember is the GP-100

It can be had in a 4" barrell.

If you want to go single action the Ruger Blackhawks are tough.

5. Can this gun be repaired or should just I scrap it and get a new one?CaryIf the fracture doesn't involve the frame, it is repairable and should be sent back to S&W for a new barrel. These are still popular guns regardless of the fact that they do not like a steady diet of full charge .357 loads so under no circumstances should you scrap it. Suggest you get the barrel replaced and sell the gun to get something more to your liking. ;)

Mr Kane is absolutly right, at least have S&W check it out. As for a replacement there are several on the market that like a steady diet of max 357 loads.

Smith and Wesson makes the L and N frame revolvers, Ruger makes the GP 100's and I think the Redhawk in 357, not sure about that one. The Smiths have the best factory triggers on the market, the Ruger's are tougher than heck. Someone mentioned Taurus and I own one of the Trackers in 41 magnum that seems to be holding up well.

One thing you want to keep in mind the heavier a revolver is the easier it is to shoot and usually the longer it will hold up. I've got thousands of rounds thru my Ruger Redhawks, but if I'm carrying a gun for a fishing partner the 41 mag Taurus Tracker at 30 oz goes with me. It doesn't get shot a lot so I'm not worried about shooting it loose. It does pound you pretty good being so light.

If you do look into new revolver try to find a gun in the 40 oz range (plus or minus a little) if you plan to put a lots of high performance 357 rounds thru it.

Well I don't know if I've helped you much, good luck in your search for a new gun. I switched from the 357 to the 44 mags years ago. With light 44 mag loads you have much more energy than a hot 357 and less recoil with the bigger gun and heavier gun is much nicer to shoot.

For hunting the 44 is an excellent choice and gives a bunch more energy and range. I've killed deer and bear both at ranges to 100 yards with no problem.

my son shoot a 5.5 inch Ruger Redhawk and with the short barrel he carries it on his hip with not problems. If I'm hunting I carry a Ruger Super Redhawk 7.5 inch with an Aimpoint red dot sight. On a good day I can keep five shots in a ten inch circle at a hundred yards.

If the fracture doesn't involve the frame, it is repairable and should be sent back to S&W for a new barrel. These are still popular guns regardless of the fact that they do not like a steady diet of full charge .357 loads so under no circumstances should you scrap it. Suggest you get the barrel replaced and sell the gun to get something more to your liking. ;)
Thanks for the reply. This gun was designed to shoot 357 mag rounds and when you do on a regular basis this is what happens? Has S&W stood up to the plate and made any allowances for repair of these guns? It looks to me that this is a design flaw on their part and they should stand behind it.
Thanks,
Cary

Everything wears with use. Your car/truck wears out. Use them harder and drive them faster, they wear out even quicker. Guns are no different. The K frame Smith, model 19, is a well made revolver for it's intended purpose. Carry one on your hip all day and then borrow one of Bob's big 44s to carry for a while. I guess you could say it's a compromise between strength and weight. I agree with earlier posts, the Smith is worth fixin...or at least to me it would be if I were in your shoes.

Has S&W stood up to the plate and made any allowances for repair of these guns? It looks to me that this is a design flaw on their part and they should stand behind it. CaryThe model 19 was the brainchild of the legendary Bill Jordan of the U.S. Border Patrol and S&W. Introduced about 1962, it was an instant success with the LE people. As failures like your gun began to emerge, gun writers made it clearly known that a steady diet of full charge .357s were not conducive to longivity. As far as I know, there has been no factory recall or warrenty work to correct this defect. Still, the 19 is a very popular gun, it is accurate, light to carry, will handle .357 on a limited basis and has some of the prettiest lines of any revolver ever made. By now, parts should be readily available so your local gunsmith would be able to rebarrel this for you at nominal cost if you don't wish to return the gun to S&W. I hope you will not scrap the gun as it is a classic and good luck in finding something more to your liking. :)

Bob, you've said it all. Nothing more to add. :D

I believe it to be incorrect to call this a defect. When Jordan began working with Smith and Wesson to design the 19 he wanted less weight but still retain full power. Jordan and Smith knew up front that the gun was too light for a steady diet of full house loads. The 19 did exactly what it was intended to do.


This is a quote from John Taffin
"Jordan originally devised the K-frame Magnum as one to be practiced with using .38 Specials and fed .357's for serious business. When shooters started pushing thousands of rounds of Magnum ammunition through the 19/66 some problems developed with forcing cone wear and guns shooting loose"

I believe it to be incorrect to call this a defect. Perhaps I should have said "condition" or something to that effect. I have senior moments and this was one of them. Thank you for bringing this up. ;)

Mr Kane, I understand completely. Have a senior moment myself sometimes. I shot a model 19 to death years ago, mostly because I didn't know any better. It wasn't the guns fault, it was mine. Cost me a few bucks for a lesson learned but it didn't make me not like the model 19.

The question w/ the model 19 is not is it capable of full power .357 loads, it's what load was it designed for! This handgun is designed to shoot 158gr or heavier bullets. The stress load that is put on the frame using 125gr bullets is multiplied significantly. 125gr bullets faster velocity, plus increased powder charge create to much stress on the frame. This is a direct result of increased pressure. I have received this info direct from S&W many years ago. I only shoot 158gr bullets out of my 19-4. S&W will repair/ replace if all guide lines are followed. JP

When the M19 came out I dont think there were any factory metaljacketed loads. The jacketed loads allow some blowby when the powder burns and this erodes the forcing cone. The smaller barrel heats up more rapidly and that makes the problem worse. When the hot light bullets loads came out and the police started using full loads for qualifing and practice, the problems really showed up. The result was the L frame series which has a bigger barrel. The model 19 is fine with the right ammo. 2000 rounds of any ammo should not split the forcing cone. I would send the gun back for a new barrel. When I was at the Border Patrol Academy, I helped with a test in 3 in barreled revolvers. We shot 3000 rounds of 158 grain SP ammo through each of a M65 S&W and a fixed sight GP100 Ruger. We had a number of people firing 150 rds each as fast as we could. At the end of the test The Ruger was polished a little bit at the forcing cone area and did not show a difference in accuracy in a Ransom Rest. The M65 forcing cone area was washed out and accuracy was poor with twice sized groups at 25 yds. The guns were burning hot during the test and without taped up hands we couldnt have fired them. Im not sure this was a fair comparison for the S&W because that gun was never designed for that type of continued abuse. It does show what the Ruger can take and I was impressed. The M19 is really a compromise gun. Its fine if you use 38 for practice and save the heavy stuff for serious use. I think its just the right size for the 357 cartridge because if you go to a heavier gun its going to weigh as much as a 44 so you might as well get a 44. Just my .02 cents.

I wouldn't ask S+W to fix it, I'd demand they stand behind their product as their reputation for doing so is well established.

I wouldn't approach the issue like I did anything wrong, I'd simply state the gun failed and you want it repaired.

JMHO

AzQkr

I have the Security Six much lit Faucettb's photograph had have fire hundreds of .357 factory rounds with narry a sneeze. An excellent revolver that you can find at reasonable prices. Check gunbroker.com or other gun auction sites. Change the springs and you will be delighted.

Good luck

I have the Security Six much lit Faucettb's photograph had have fire hundreds of .357 factory rounds with narry a sneeze. An excellent revolver that you can find at reasonable prices. Check gunbroker.com or other gun auction sites. Change the springs and you will be delighted.

Good luck
Guys I just wanted to thank you again for your help on this issue I have with this pistol. I wanted to let you know I have contacted S&W about it and will update you on their response when they give me a reply.
Cary

I would like to wade in here and put my two cents worth in. As a former gov't small arms test director my job was testing weapon systems and ammunition. Our motto was,"You make'em we break'em.

I have done 10,000 round 357 Magnum tests on Ruger Security Six and S&W Mod 65( k frame stainless) and new model L Frame S&W. I witnessed 10,000 test on GP 100.
158 grain magnum ammo was used. It was a stinking dirty job but some poor slob had to do it.

In l983/4 time frame S&W factory rep told us the K rame was good for 3000 rounds of magnum and the described failure (crack in forcing cone) would occur. Have seen this on number smiths. also seen gas shields with slits burned in them, broken hammer pivot pins, broken trigger pivot pins, egg shaped alignment holes for cylinder, egg shaped hammer nose holes, broken hammer noses, broken hammer spurs, top straps blown off etc.

I cannot confirm that because again if memory serves me correctly we never got a K frame Smith beyond 1200 rounds and had it stay in time. We rebuilt K frame at 500, 1000 and at 1200 rounds was beyond rebuild as it would not time up with largest hand made. Again l980s time frame.

Smith L frame went 10,000 rounds, Rugers all but one went 10,000.

My estimate is the Security Six would need a hand replaced at 12,000 rounds, about same for new L Frame. The GP 100 might go 15,000 rounds.

Now here is the rub, to regain timing on S&W you need new extractor star (factory only retrofit) as they wore down on the K frame. On the Ruger the hand takes the wear and the extractor star is the tough part. Last I priced a Ruger hand/pawl whatever you want to call it, it was 4.00 for so.

I suspect if you check weapon to make sure unloaded, pull the trigger double action very slowly, if the cylinder stop is not fully engaged prior to hammer fall you have a gun that is out of time and in need of rebuild. Not to say it won't fire but think about it, if it is not locked up prior to hammer fall there is nothing controlling the location of the primer in front of the striker.
An off center hit .020" out will start to increase the odds of your experiencing a misfire. This is why they call them center fire handguns with the operative word being CENTER.

Frankford Arsenal tested millions of rounds for misfire probability and determined once you go beyond .020" offset you are getting into gray area. If I remember correctly allowable misfire rate for Remington, Winchester and CCI last I heard was one in a million with their actual misfire rate being even less. There is no more reliable ammunition made than US ammo.

Most people that experience a misfire blame the ammo. If ammo has not been wet/oil exposed and you get a misfire, 99.9999 percent of the time it can be traced to the gun if you have the right tooling.

Chances are if you send that piece to S&W and tell them to put in A1 condition you are going to have sticker shock. I had a friend send them one for a new extractor star 20 years ago and it was 75.00.

After the above testing in 80s I dumped most (about two dozen 10s, 15s, 27s, 28s, 29, 36s, 60s, 19s, 66 etc ) of my Smiths. Still have a couple K22s (they hold up great but were discontinued I understand ) a Mod 10 2" I rarely shoot and a Mod 36 that is at least 35 years old, never a round fired. Having attended the S&W Armorer School I know how to keep them going and have the tools/gages to do so.

I now own a GP100 with 8" custom barrel & scope, two GPs with 6" barrels, two GPs with 4" barrels and two GPs with 3" barrels. Three security sixes, one speed six, two Redhawks, one Blackhawk and one convertible 22. Only one problem with any of them. Factory paid for shipping both ways and had it back in two weeks. If you want a gun you can take to the range and run 500 rounds a day of 357, the GP is the gun IMHO.

For what it is worth.

I AM In Awe. Semper Fi! J Patterson Model 19 is STILL the most accurate .357 made, just 2 cents, w/ 158 grain ammo, and iron sight's.

Well I got a reply from S&W concerning the problem with my S&W model 19-7. They said they can not repair the gun as they have no more new barrels. Unless I can find a barrel someone else may have in stock I can not have the gun repaired. I think what ever money it would take to get this gun repaired would be better spent on a new one. I think I see a new Ruger model GP-100 coming my way in the future. I want to stay with a 4" barrel model as it seems for me to be a good middle of the road length. My broken Smith is a blued model and this time I plan to go the stainless route to make the gun more versatile. I am now leaning towards the Ruger KGP-141 which is the 4" stainless model. Anyone out there have one of these? Thanks to everyone for your input on this.

Well I got a reply from S&W concerning the problem with my S&W model 19-7. They said they can not repair the gun as they have no more new barrels. Unless I can find a barrel someone else may have in stock I can not have the gun repaired.There is a blued 19-3 6" barrel with a post front sight available on ebay for another two days. If this will fit your receiver, you will have a complete gun to sell. Suggest you check with your gunsmith first. In any event, things like this come up for sale on ebay every so often. Hope this helps you find a barrel. :p

Thanks for keeping my problem in mind. I have decided to put my money into a new gun that will do what I want it to do. By the time I bought a decent barrel for my old gun and paid a gun smith to install it I think I would be over the $200.00 mark.
Cary