I just got my new shotgun (Mossberg 500), and for the present it's gonna be a home defense gun since I don't know anybody to hunt or shoot skeet with or anything. What are some good commercial loads for this application? I don't know anything about shotgun ammo terminology, so if you could briefly explain what you mean if you recommend one kind over another I'd be much obliged.

My primary desires for the ammo are, in order:

-that is does the job

-that it endangers my neighbors as little as possible since I live in an apartment complex; that's why I got a shotgun for home defense in the first place rather than a handgun, because I'm told it'll penetrate the walls less.

-that it has little recoil, if possible. But if it's a choice between a hard-kicking round that stops the intruder in one shot and a light-kicking rounds that stops him in two, I'd probably take the harder one.

-cost won't be much of an issue, I'd hope. I don't plan on having regular shootouts, even if I do live in Houston. ^_- I very much hope that I'll just get a few boxes, ever--a couple for the range and a couple for home that will hopefully never need to be used.


Also, what's a good choke recommendation?

(Btw, I plan on getting the 18" barrel as soon as possible. I realize the disadvantages of relying on a long gun for self-defense.)

Thanks guys!

Walmart sells some Federal shotshells that come 100 per box for about $15. Its 12 gauge so it will do the job, and it is #7 1/2 shot size, so it is less likely to take out your neighbors. Also, it is not so overly powerful that you will not want to shoot it. I am a skinny runt, and I can handle it just fine. And it can also be used for skeet/trap shooting.
Hope this helps.

rt

Walmart sells some Federal shotshells that come 100 per box for about $15. Its 12 gauge so it will do the job, and it is #7 1/2 shot size, so it is less likely to take out your neighbors. Also, it is not so overly powerful that you will not want to shoot it. I am a skinny runt, and I can handle it just fine. And it can also be used for skeet/trap shooting.
Hope this helps.

rt

Yes it does, thanks much! ^_^

3" waterfowl loads would probably do a good job for your wants. I think a person might continue aggression with 71/2...might want at least 6 shot copper plated pheasant loads. Improved cylinder choke would give you a massive pattern in your future 18" so pattern it with different chokes to find what you like...big or small. The improved cylinder would probably be best for the closer ranges you'll probably encounter, but a modified would provide a tight pattern for more pellets on target and 1 big hole.

Measure the longest shot you'd likely have to take inside your home, then pattern the gun at that range and again at about 1/2 that range. In my old house, the max. was just at 24yards (back of the best room, down a hall, to the front of the den)...in real life, the shot would be at a max of about 18yards as neither of us would have our backs pressed up to those two walls.

SO i patterend at 18yards and picked my loads from those results. Wanted nice even paterns, not too tight (and at that range, patterns are pretty tight even from an improved cylinder choke).

Most apartments are smaller than that; you might be surprised at how tightly that gun patterns at such close range.

A lot depends on the walls of the house...typical apartment type walls won't stop much of anything, but at least the smaller bird shot tends to slow down.

Don't use birdshot unless you are expecting to be attacked by birds. You need buckshot to reliably shut down a determined attacker. For your reading pleasure:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Don't use birdshot unless you are expecting to be attacked by birds. You need buckshot to reliably shut down a determined attacker. For your reading pleasure:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Yeah...read that some time back and kind of agree with the #1 buck solution. Hovever the loading compaines keep switching componets and I'd not bet that the specific maker recomendations are still valid.

In the end, the gun tells you what it likes and doesn't...and barrels can be mighty particular. Pattern the gun at the range it's intended to be used and pick your poision from those results. So it costs a few dollars to buy various rounds, and it takes some time to set up pattering sheets and analize the results, but self defence is too important to follow anyones recomendation blindly. Test.

I've often found where someone is remodeling a house and has scrap bits of wall in teh junk pile...ask first, but usally they don't mind if you root through. A few 2 or 3 foot replicas of the walls of your home will so for some testing.

At across the room distances, bird short seems to strike in a mass and does a good job...once it starts to sepearte out into a pattern, the penetration become severly limited....at longer distances (still inside of a typical house) will pepper him with indiviual shot that goes in a couple of inches.

Don't use birdshot unless you are expecting to be attacked by birds. You need buckshot to reliably shut down a determined attacker. For your reading pleasure:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Thanks very much for that link. I never realized wound ballistics was being studied so thoroughly, at least not in the civilian sector. That was excellent reading and gives me more ideas what to look at in the future.

Yeah...read that some time back and kind of agree with the #1 buck solution. Hovever the loading compaines keep switching componets and I'd not bet that the specific maker recomendations are still valid.

In the end, the gun tells you what it likes and doesn't...and barrels can be mighty particular. Pattern the gun at the range it's intended to be used and pick your poision from those results. So it costs a few dollars to buy various rounds, and it takes some time to set up pattering sheets and analize the results, but self defence is too important to follow anyones recomendation blindly. Test.

I've often found where someone is remodeling a house and has scrap bits of wall in teh junk pile...ask first, but usally they don't mind if you root through. A few 2 or 3 foot replicas of the walls of your home will so for some testing.

At across the room distances, bird short seems to strike in a mass and does a good job...once it starts to sepearte out into a pattern, the penetration become severly limited....at longer distances (still inside of a typical house) will pepper him with indiviual shot that goes in a couple of inches.

Thanks for the tip on using scraps to make a simulated wall. I'll definitely use that sometime if I can.

For now I've just got the box of Federal #8 shot that rt4567 recommended; I needed SOMETHING and Wal-Mart had 'em cheap, plus it'd be great to get into some skeet shooting. I'll be looking around for either #1 or #00 buck I guess (possibly to load behind the #8 in the magazine as recommended in the wound ballistics link) and reading up in the meantime. Thanks much for the tips!

If you want buckshot, and because wall penetration is a factor you are worried about, you might want to get a managed recoil load from remington express ammunition to make some difference in damage to your neighbors stuff if pass throughs occur, and for fast follow up shots it's great. In the words of R. Lee Ermy (mail call) "It will deliver a world of hurt."

2 3/4" #4Buck & Cylinder Choke

3" waterfowl loads would probably do a good job for your wants. I think a person might continue aggression with 71/2...might want at least 6 shot copper plated pheasant loads. Improved cylinder choke would give you a massive pattern in your future 18" so pattern it with different chokes to find what you like...big or small. The improved cylinder would probably be best for the closer ranges you'll probably encounter, but a modified would provide a tight pattern for more pellets on target and 1 big hole.

I doubt anyone would continue aggression when getting hit with any type of medium sized shot....

I dont know about u, but if i took a round of 7.5 shot, i would be looking for the nearest exit if i could even still see...that shell will definatly take out eyes if u shoot them in the face

Of course if ud like to prove me wrong, come on over, ill shoot ya and if u can get to me...ill let ya kick my a$$

:cool:

Not trying to start a fight...just my .02

One of the light recoil buckshot loads is probably best. I think one of the makers has a low recoil #4 buck load and that is what I would use. The smaller buck penetrates a lot less. If you have a handgun, then the frangable rounds would be preferable for defense rather than a shotgun. I use a S&W 38 with Magsafe loads for home defense.

I doubt anyone would continue aggression when getting hit with any type of medium sized shot....

I dont know about u, but if i took a round of 7.5 shot, i would be looking for the nearest exit if i could even still see...that shell will definatly take out eyes if u shoot them in the face

Of course if ud like to prove me wrong, come on over, ill shoot ya and if u can get to me...ill let ya kick my a$$

:cool:

Not trying to start a fight...just my .02

Strawman argument. No one wants to get shot, even with a .22 pellet gun. Does that mean a .22 pellet gun is a viable defensive weapon?

I don't know about you, but if I was in a life or death fight and I took a load of 7.5 and it didn't shut me down, I'd be on top of my attacker gnawing at his throat and stabbing him with a rusty screwdriver. Now, I'd do the same thing if a load of buck didn't shut me down, but the odds are better that the buck will do the job and it provides a margin of error in case you can't get them in the eyes.

Idea of small shot is that it works fine at across the room ranges...a matter of 10-12 FEET...wounds look like gaint glazers/MagSafes when the charge stikes in one big clump. Not real effective at 10-12 yards.

are you using a modified choke?
anyway, there are two loads:
self preservation: 00buck
sting'em: carpet tacks +rocksalt
the most scariest of all is the sound of a pump shotgun getting ready to fire(it stopped a recent attempt).
mbegg.

Strawman argument. No one wants to get shot, even with a .22 pellet gun. Does that mean a .22 pellet gun is a viable defensive weapon?

I don't know about you, but if I was in a life or death fight and I took a load of 7.5 and it didn't shut me down, I'd be on top of my attacker gnawing at his throat and stabbing him with a rusty screwdriver. Now, I'd do the same thing if a load of buck didn't shut me down, but the odds are better that the buck will do the job and it provides a margin of error in case you can't get them in the eyes.

Agreed, and i would too be killing the person that shot me!!!

Thing is...i dont know anyone that would just shoot once if hte first shot didnt knock them down...i got four more shots...and if their getting closer, its going to hurt more the closer they get...now i know this is going to bring up the court stuff about only shoot once and all that.....anyways...good times and i hope no one ever has to use any of the shells for self defence

And as said before, just work the slide once...that usualy gives them a good idea that they better GTFO...sooner rather than later!

I recently watched a video (forgot where) on the net showing 00 Buck used at different ranges against sheetrock walls in a very realistic situation (for the hydro slugs if memory serves me right). 00 Buck will kill and stop an intruder but will also do the same to your neighbors! I love 00 Buck because I live in the country and not in an apartment. No. 4 Buckshot is a good comprimise but sometimes fails to stop a very aggresive attacker with only one shot but not as a general rule. I have to agree almost with both sides saying that you want pellet size and penetration. Almost any Buck is too big and birdshot is just that .Have you considered a #4 3in copper-plated turkey load? It has lots of pellets that will penetrate (copper) and are alot bigger that #6 or #8's yet they will be hard pressed to find thier way into your neighbors house. If you have any doubts i say build an appropraite sheetrock wall model and fire at a reasonable range for your situation with a silhoutte target behind it from3 to 15 feet and you will be amazed at what a 12g shotgun will do.

My primary desires for the ammo are, in order:

-that is does the job

-that it endangers my neighbors as little as possible since I live in an apartment complex; that's why I got a shotgun for home defense in the first place rather than a handgun, because I'm told it'll penetrate the walls less.

-that it has little recoil, if possible. But if it's a choice between a hard-kicking round that stops the intruder in one shot and a light-kicking rounds that stops him in two, I'd probably take the harder one.

-cost won't be much of an issue, I'd hope. I don't plan on having regular shootouts, even if I do live in Houston. ^_- I very much hope that I'll just get a few boxes, ever--a couple for the range and a couple for home that will hopefully never need to be used.


Also, what's a good choke recommendation?


As you've probably gathered by other posts to this thread, loads that fulfill one of your criteria often conflict with others. Buckshot that provides great stopping power may perforate common apartment building materials. Lower penetrating loads may not be sufficient if facing an attacker truly bent on your demise. My own answer to the question is sort of a best of both worlds plan. Perhaps you might want to consider something along these lines:

My Remington 870 is equipped with three different loads. There is only one shell in the magazine tube, a long-discontinued Remington SP BBX4 duplex loads (3" shell, max. dram eq., 1-7/8 oz. of shot). I'm confident this compromise load will "deter" all but the most maniacal home invader at typical defensive shooting distances. Remington continues to make a similar shell with 4's and 6's. Keeping a single round in the tube helps reduce tension on the magazine spring over long periods of storage time. It also allows me to tailor the followup rounds to suit the situation at hand. If trouble brews, I rack this shell into the chamber. A Side Saddle ammo carrier mounted on the receiver holds four 00 Buck and two 1 oz. slugs. Depending on what's happening I can load either shell as warranted. I've practiced this routine in the dark and can do it quickly by feel alone.

You may find the following link of interest as well.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

For me, birdshot is pretty good, figuring that close up it is lethal - it's a tight oz of lead, regardless of choke. As range increases, it goes from lethal, to maiming, to very painful, matching the threat/danger pretty well.

From an aftermath, legal perspective, your actions and intent are probably more defensible with bird rather than buck shot, too. The intent is to defend me and mine, not kill.

I forget who makes them, but there is a factory load out there that has birdish shot sizes available in a shell thats roughly half the size of a 2/34" shell. So in that Mossberg 500, which i believe holds 7+1, you can now get 14 + 1 in 'er. Kinda cool idea. You don't tear up your house too bad, and you can blaze away.

I dont know that shot size is such huge issue. I guess I could see someone making a case that "less than buckshot" would not render some aggressors out for the count, but I personally wouldn't be waiting between shots to find out. You can have that mossberg emptied in a matter of a couple seconds, and nobody on earth is going to be continuing an attack after 2 or 3 #7 or #8's are in him at close-quarter distances.

I'd steer clear of steel loads, they dont penetrate (thats why waterfowl hunters hate them). Even with a 3.5" mag BB shell, the shot will just sink into a piece of 3/4" ply at 15 yards, where a 2/34" #8 lead will blow clean thru.

I wouldn't take recoil into consideration. When you're shooting at a living object, even a game bird, you dont feel a thing.

I have a 500, and the API pistol grip/folding stock is a nice add-on for handiness around corners. I'd advise against the foregrip handle.. slows you down, and you dont have very good control of the gun.

Lots of good advice above regarding penetration of walls, etc. You may wish to seriously consider the wisdom of any firearm inside when the only thing separating you from your innocent neighbor is a couple of layers of sheetrock. I used to keep a 12-guage shotgun with 0000 shot (nine 38 caliber lead balls in each shell.) I had the advantage of brick walls on my home to slow/stop their progress. I finally decided the lowest risk was the sound of the 12-guage racking up - even if empty. It's a very recognizable sound and most people get religion very quickly upon hearing it.

Several years ago one of my co-workers accidentally fired a gun in a hotel room and killed a person in an adjoining room. It's something to be avoided at all costs. The victims family suffered horribly, and the shooter didn't feel much better.

I don't want to suggest that you don't have a right to self-defense; rather I want to remind you that this decision brings tremendous responsibility.

Lots of good advice above regarding penetration of walls, etc. You may wish to seriously consider the wisdom of any firearm inside when the only thing separating you from your innocent neighbor is a couple of layers of sheetrock. I used to keep a 12-guage shotgun with 0000 shot (nine 38 caliber lead balls in each shell.) I had the advantage of brick walls on my home to slow/stop their progress. I finally decided the lowest risk was the sound of the 12-guage racking up - even if empty. It's a very recognizable sound and most people get religion very quickly upon hearing it.

Several years ago one of my co-workers accidentally fired a gun in a hotel room and killed a person in an adjoining room. It's something to be avoided at all costs. The victims family suffered horribly, and the shooter didn't feel much better.

I don't want to suggest that you don't have a right to self-defense; rather I want to remind you that this decision brings tremendous responsibility.

Man, I would never ever want to deal with someone like that. Shooting an intruder would mess me up enough; accidentally shooting an innocent person........ I'm really sorry for your friend and for the family of the other person.

I've been keeping the shotgun around loaded with one round of #1B followed by four rounds of 00. I also make sure that there isn't a round in the chamber, partly for safety but largely because like you say the sound of a racking shotgun is gonna be a big deterrent. If the sound DOESN'T deter someone then they must be pretty crazy/determined/stupid, meaning they are going to be a real threat and I'm gonna need something more serious to deal with them, hence the ammo.

I'm considering loading with an even smaller shot though to cut down further on the possibility for over-penetration, especially since any shots I might take in the apartment are gonna be so short that anything is probably gonna hit in a very dense pattern and cause a large enough wound. Who knows, maybe when I get a handgun I'll get some shotshells for it. In the meantime I'd like to do some tests with maybe some larger birdshot to see how well that might work, and read up more on wound ballistics. Plus I need to get more construction materials to test on; only thing I've gotten to shoot so far was some kinda laminate board, which the 00 blew to pieces and which probably doesn't simulate sheet rock very well.

Thank God this whole thing has only been hypothetical, though. I hope it'll always remain that way, and odds are great that it will. But hey, that's what we gotta do sometimes--plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I agree with the birdshot advocates. I keep a Mossberg 590 in my bedroom with a box of 2 3/4" 7 1/2 next to it. I'm not so much worried about accidentally killing an innocent neighbor as I would be accidentally shooting my own family members in adjacent rooms.

Birdshot works perfectly fine in a confined space like a bedroom. Go out to the range and shoot a few objects with birdshot at 10 ft. You'll be impressed with the damage it does. Besides, if the intruder is still intent on getting to me after having eight rounds of birdshot pumped into him, I can always finish him off with the M-9 knife/bayonet mounted on the end of my 590. (Beats his rusty screwdriver anyday).

I agree with the birdshot advocates. I keep a Mossberg 590 in my bedroom with a box of 2 3/4" 7 1/2 next to it. I'm not so much worried about accidentally killing an innocent neighbor as I would be accidentally shooting my own family members in adjacent rooms.

Birdshot works perfectly fine in a confined space like a bedroom. Go out to the range and shoot a few objects with birdshot at 10 ft. You'll be impressed with the damage it does. Besides, if the intruder is still intent on getting to me after having eight rounds of birdshot pumped into him, I can always finish him off with the M-9 knife/bayonet mounted on the end of my 590. (Beats his rusty screwdriver anyday).

Hey wait, is "rusty screwdriver" a euphemism? Golly, what kinda pervert intruders do y'all have up there?? ;)

Hehe, just kiddin' of course and I appreciate the advice. I guess now I've gotta go blow stuff up with birdshot in the name of science. *sigh* :D

I never shot anybody and hope I never have to. If I do, I will do it the same way I shoot a deer, they will never hear anything.

Whenever people talk about how bad "racking a shotgun" scares an intruder, all I can think of is the bad guy emptying a handgun at the sound.

I never shot anybody and hope I never have to. If I do, I will do it the same way I shoot a deer, they will never hear anything.

Whenever people talk about how bad "racking a shotgun" scares an intruder, all I can think of is the bad guy emptying a handgun at the sound.

Well you do raise an interesting point there. :\ I dunno which would be better/safer, to keep a round chambered or not. I guess different intruders would probably react differently to the sound of the gun being racked.

But I suppose if it came to it I'd better at least rack it while it's pointed dead at said bad guy, just in case it does prompt that kinda reaction out of him. I dunno. More thought required here.

The model 500 is a good inexpensive and functional shot gun from my experience. I've got an 835 also but its like swinging a cannon around compaired to the 500. God forbid I ever have to make the split second decision to shoot another human in order to protect mine and my families life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Buuuut, my 500 leans in the closet about 3 good steps away from my side of the bed. I have one shell chambered at all times safety on and 2 more shells ready to slide in the magazine, 3 more go in my pocket. Why yes! my sleeping shorts do have pockets. Potentially 6 blasts from a 2.75" Remington Express #1 buck, each packing 16 .30 cal pellets passing out of an imp. cyl. choke. If the perp is uninvited and in my house . . . I mean my castle, day or night, and I perceive them to have bad intentions, I will give them one chance to run out and away, otherwise they'll have to contend with a potential 96 growling .30 cal pellets. Of course it's going to tear the heck out of everything. For some reason I feel the need to buy a 5 gallon bucket of Spackle to go along with this plan. Back up is a little H&R single 12ga. with 5 reduced recoil Dbl 00's. Best of luck with your self defense load choices. I will give the intruder/s one chance to run out and away and they better be jiffyquick w/ their decision.

When my kids were young, I kept my old Ithaca 37 (capable of very fast slam-fire) cocked, with an empty chamber, safety on, and 4 or 5 rounds of birdshot in the magazine. I figured the gun was big enough and it would be sufficiently difficult for the kids to figure out how to actuate the slide release and take it off safety that they would be very unlikely to shoot it accidentally. I, however, could get it into action very quickly. The bird shot was to keep penetration of walls to a minimum, while still being very effective at close range. I wanted to avoid shooting my kids in the next room at all costs!

As the kids got older, I trained them in the safe handling of firearms, but I still liked the idea of birdshot when in confined quarters with family members/neighbors just a wall or two away.

Just to chime in here, today's manufacturers are producing wads/shot-cups that stay with the shot longer and keep it in a tight shot column farther away from the muzzle. I've been using a Federal 3" round of #5's for Turkey hunting, and have had to take care that I don't let them get too close, or I'll miss the turkey because the shot hasn't opened yet. The Federal "Flight Control" Wad/Cup is designed to stay with the shot for 20+ feet. That means that for the first seven yards or so I've got what boils down to a two ounce slug just under three quarters of an inch wide travelling at 1200-1300 fps. I don't care what anyone says, that's gonna hurt.

Plus, keep in mind that if it hits anything within those first seven yards or so, be it intruder, wall, or lamp, that shot is going to immediately disperse. If it's inside an intruder, so much the better, as it spreads the damage, if it's a wall or other object, then the smaller the shot is, the faster it's going to lose energy, and be less likey to injure anyone or anything else.

That's actually the theory behind a lot of the new LEO Tactical shotgun rounds, they carry extremely fine shot in a cup designed to hold it together until impact, then disperse it. Anything farther away than 6-8 ft from the dispersal point won't even have a mark left on it. But woe to anything that gets hit while the shot is still in the cup.

So my .02 would be to go with small shot in a good shot cup with a tight choke. That equates to shooting slugs at targets at interior apartment ranges, yet will minimize collateral damage on missed shots. Of course, it's only going to piss someone off at 35+ yards, but then again, we're talking about up close and personal, inside your apartment defense.


Ken

When considering the use of a shotgun for selfdefense you must consider the ability of the pellet (ONLY ONE) to penatrate when deciding what size shot to use. The shot used for most 'birds' will not give you proper penatration on a human target. You have to consider your enviornement. If you live in an apartment or mobil home you should limit the size to #2 or BB. If you live in a conventional stick built house in an urban setting the small (#4) buck shot would be about the limit. If you are a 'country boy' like me use anything you want, including slugs and/or 00 Buck!!! ;)

Just to chime in here, today's manufacturers are producing wads/shot-cups that stay with the shot longer and keep it in a tight shot column farther away from the muzzle. I've been using a Federal 3" round of #5's for Turkey hunting, and have had to take care that I don't let them get too close, or I'll miss the turkey because the shot hasn't opened yet. The Federal "Flight Control" Wad/Cup is designed to stay with the shot for 20+ feet. That means that for the first seven yards or so I've got what boils down to a two ounce slug just under three quarters of an inch wide travelling at 1200-1300 fps. I don't care what anyone says, that's gonna hurt.

Plus, keep in mind that if it hits anything within those first seven yards or so, be it intruder, wall, or lamp, that shot is going to immediately disperse. If it's inside an intruder, so much the better, as it spreads the damage, if it's a wall or other object, then the smaller the shot is, the faster it's going to lose energy, and be less likey to injure anyone or anything else.

That's actually the theory behind a lot of the new LEO Tactical shotgun rounds, they carry extremely fine shot in a cup designed to hold it together until impact, then disperse it. Anything farther away than 6-8 ft from the dispersal point won't even have a mark left on it. But woe to anything that gets hit while the shot is still in the cup.

So my .02 would be to go with small shot in a good shot cup with a tight choke. That equates to shooting slugs at targets at interior apartment ranges, yet will minimize collateral damage on missed shots. Of course, it's only going to piss someone off at 35+ yards, but then again, we're talking about up close and personal, inside your apartment defense.


Ken

Now THAT is interesting. Can you point me to a manufacturer's website that talks about this kind of ammo? Or if not, do you know who makes it and what exactly it's called?

Right now this is my setup:

1 light-recoil 2-3\4 00 chambered, safety on
1 more of the same in the magazine followed by one slug
3 more light-recoil 00 and 4 slugs close at hand

The low number of rounds in the magazine is to save the spring (I did notice that is started to feel lighter after being fully loaded for a while) and also to allow more versatility if I want or need to load something else. The first two low-recoil 00's should stop an intruder just fine, and if not the slug will.

I put this together after talking to y'all and also to some law enforcement types. Of course the law enforcement I talked to said they keep the gun loaded but not cocked (1) for safety and (2) so they can create the scary cocking sound. For myself, I've got the safety on and I won't be handling the gun with my finger in the trigger guard anyway; and considering the intruder could be armed and might try to shoot me by firing at the noise I've made, I figure quiet is better. If I feel like scaring or warning him, I'll do so with his vitals in my sights and my finger on the trigger ready to shoot.

Of course, no break-ins yet thank the good Lord.

Also, pretty soon I'll be leaving Houston to move to Tulsa with my fiance to get married sometime soon. Our plan is to live in the country, and out there we shouldn't have to worry about shooting our neighbors through any walls so we can be armed in whatever way we like.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions, and good shooting to everyone.

The 'scary cocking sound' or racking the slide is the biggest myth or bit of misinformation out today about the shot gun. It is right out of Hollywood!!! :mad: So you are on the right track there! ;)
When you do this you:
1. Give up the element of suprise.
2. Give up your location.
3. Let your enemy know how you are armed.
This allows him to plan his 'attack' on you!
That friends is alot of intell you do not want him to know. It is far better to make him aware of your presents when he is looking down the bore with your (smiling) face behind it!!! :cool:

The 'scary cocking sound' or racking the slide is the biggest myth or bit of misinformation out today about the shot gun. It is right out of Hollywood!!! :mad: So you are on the right track there! ;)
When you do this you:
1. Give up the element of suprise.
2. Give up your location.
3. Let your enemy know how you are armed.
This allows him to plan his 'attack' on you!
That friends is alot of intell you do not want him to know. It is far better to make him aware of your presents when he is looking down the bore with your (smiling) face behind it!!! :cool:

Yeah, I certainly side more with your point of view now. The cops in the gun stores still tell me that racking the gun it discourages a lot of otherwise would-be-attackers and ends a lot of potential gunfights early, but I dunno how much of that is solid fact. Heck, these are the same cops telling people that a 9mm handgun has the stopping power of a .45, so just how well-informed can they possibly be? :p

(No offense to all you 9mm lovers.)

Well I shot two people with a shot gun in the line of duty, and witnessed many shootings by shot guns in my 26 years on the street. And they are right about the 9, with the right or best ammo the 9 is better than the 45 in that it reaches 357 Mag ballistics and is easier for most people to 'hit' the right spot!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is the real world, not the mythical one!!! :)

Well I shot two people with a shot gun in the line of duty, and witnessed many shootings by shot guns in my 26 years on the street. And they are right about the 9, with the right or best ammo the 9 is better than the 45 in that it reaches 357 Mag ballistics and is easier for most people to 'hit' the right spot!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is the real world, not the mythical one!!! :)

Well who knows. I guess I've read plenty of articles in favor of one round or the other, and in the end figured that the one with more energy was the better bet. *shrug* Doesn't mean all that much now that I just bought a 9mm, hehe. (Shh, don't tell.) I'll get to compare their shooting properties of the 9mm for myself pretty soon, on my brother's Para Ordnance 1911 and my FN Browning if it doesn't turn out to be too collectible. (More on that when I get more info.)

I was in law enforcement for several years and I keep tactical buckshot in my home defense shotgun. It can be bought in most sporting stores, it has less kick but more than enough to stop an intruder. Also #4 buck hunting load is considerable.

Well I shot two people with a shot gun in the line of duty, and witnessed many shootings by shot guns in my 26 years on the street. And they are right about the 9, with the right or best ammo the 9 is better than the 45 in that it reaches 357 Mag ballistics and is easier for most people to 'hit' the right spot!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is the real world, not the mythical one!!! :)

Jim...... I still have downstairs above my reloading bench, a test that was done with various calibers with 9mm, 357 mag, 41 cal and the 45 acp back in the late 60's. It was in Shooters Bible and one saw pictures of actual penetration tests of these various calibers and the wound channels they produced using various weight bullets.

Now at that time the 9mm was not much on the shelf because of lack of good bullets. The 41 mag was tops! However, not many could handle its recoil eilther and still hit the targets in front of them. The .357 mag was the overall top dog in the test, using Super Vel ammo back then.

I have a 12 gauge pump model 590 by my bedside, with 18.5 inch barrel and open bore choke. It is loaded up with 00 & 000 Buck Shot. I figure, since there are no children or other people in the house, (live in rual area) I want to put the intruder down for the count, simply not brush the wiskers off his face with load of #7.5 shot.

"PHIL - IN - BOX".......The hallway from our bedroom to living room is over 30 feet! So what good does ammo do me, that is only going to put the Pert down at 6 or 10 feet? No thanks, I'll use what I know for a fact will get the job done in spades.

I love my Kimber 45's but getting out of bed in the middle of the night in a hurry and focusing on something in the shadows, leaves a lot to be desired. So the shotgun is my best bet I figure for a man with silver hair on his head. Oh yeah! I gotta agree 100% with Jim Rau, to blazes with racking that shotgun first before checking out things in the house. My guns chamber is already LOADED FOR BEAR!

Interesting! lately Ole' Dixie has been getting quite a few emails asking for/about a specialized (?) home defense load for 12 gauge......something that would work in everything from their bird gun to one of these Rambo pistol grip guns. They want something that will bust the badguys a$$ good, light recoil, will not shoot through many walls.....and so on!
Now, I have been in the industry for 40 years and don't know how the solve all those problems......so I look at priorities!
To me, my first worry would be stopping the bad guy cold, no matter how heavy his clothes or how bad his attitude.......period!
But, the next priority would be recoil. Down the line I would worry about the load going through walls, etc.
I turned our fellows loose and they came up with an interesting load.
(1) 2 3/4" hulls so it would fit both 2 3/4" nad 3" guns.
(2) Unique powder for a low powered load with next to no muzzle flash......bad on eyes at night
(3) 10-#0 buckshot at 1000'/".....in a RP12 wad and no buffer.
(4) Low recoil even in lightweight pistol grip guns.
I like it! What do you all think about it?....I might put it in the line........James
(4)

im a new (english)member looking for reloading advice,i cant believe what im reading here .
the last thing i want to do is offend anyone.
anyone seeking advice as to what shotgun round they should use to kill someone breaking into their home has a sense of values & culture so different from my own that i cannot imagine that anything i could write would be of any value to them.
after some thought i can suggest move to somewhere you feel less threatened.
regards
nabs

Nabs,

While it may seem like a harsh thread, the reality is that the world has a lot of evil in it, and you can't geographically remove yourself from all of it. England tried that in WWII - remember Neville Chamberlain and "Peace in our Time"? There are terrorists who live all their lives building hatred for anyone who disagrees with them, and there are numerous smaller-time criminals who resent anyone who has it better than they do, or who simply feel they ought to be able to have what you have (or maybe just want to kill/rape etc. for the thrill of it). I doubt anyone on this forum wants to be in a situation where they have to defend themselves with a weapon, but it may happen. This thread just discusses how to effectively defend yourself and your loved ones if it does.

im a new (english)member looking for reloading advice,i cant believe what im reading here .
the last thing i want to do is offend anyone.
anyone seeking advice as to what shotgun round they should use to kill someone breaking into their home has a sense of values & culture so different from my own that i cannot imagine that anything i could write would be of any value to them.
after some thought i can suggest move to somewhere you feel less threatened.
regards
nabs

What we are discsuing is how to stop someone from killing you and your family...yes, that often requires killing the felon, but that seems so much "better" than letting him kill you and the sleeping children you protect.

I'll go past that...it's your MORAL DUTY to end that threat...capture or kill, but if you allow that threat to continue by simply "scaring him off" then YOU are responsible for any actions he takes at a later date.

Of course you might see it differently...but will say this, IF I were a homicidal rapist, I'd MUCH prefer your country to hunt in than mine.

What we are discsuing is how to stop someone from killing you and your family...yes, that often requires killing the felon, but that seems so much "better" than letting him kill you and the sleeping children you protect.

I'll go past that...it's your MORAL DUTY to end that threat...capture or kill, but if you allow that threat to continue by simply "scaring him off" then YOU are responsible for any actions he takes at a later date.

Of course you might see it differently...but will say this, IF I were a homicidal rapist, I'd MUCH prefer your country to hunt in than mine.
HEAR HEAR!!

im a new (english)member looking for reloading advice,i cant believe what im reading here .
the last thing i want to do is offend anyone.
anyone seeking advice as to what shotgun round they should use to kill someone breaking into their home has a sense of values & culture so different from my own that i cannot imagine that anything i could write would be of any value to them.
after some thought i can suggest move to somewhere you feel less threatened.
regards
nabs

Not to split hairs here, but I wasn't looking for a way to kill people entereing my home; I was looking for the best way to protect myself and my loved ones (and my property) without unduly endangering innocent bystanders.

Sure, there are other ways to protect those things. Here's some I examined.

If I were very large and intimidating and the criminal trespasser were a coward, I could probably frighten him away. But I'm 5'11 and 140lbs, and while I might be pretty strong for my size (rock climber and piano mover here) I don't think I could depend on my frame alone to frighten anyone.

There's a good chance the attacker wouldn't be a coward. I don't know how things are in the UK, but many (if not most) of the burglars and armed robbers in the US are drug addicts looking to finance their habit. Drug addicts aren't likely to be in their right mind, and as such aren't likely to be swayed by threats or reason. So assuming that scenario, of someone determined to threaten, harm, or kill myself or my family, I'd be limited to only a few options (and combinations thereof):

(1) call the police
(2) flee
(3) combat

The problem with option one is that I live in a rural area. I'd certainly want to call the police, but their response time would be many minutes longer than the number of seconds it could take the attacker to harm or kill someone. I'd better find a way to survive in the meantime.

The problem with option two is that while I'm a very fast runner, my fiancee isn't. I'm not gonna leave her behind.

That leaves number three as the most viable option, and leaves me with a few main categories of combat to consider.

(a) armed
(b) unarmed

Again, although I'm in good shape and have had some martial arts training, I don't fancy the chances of my 140lbs against someone bent on hurting me--especially when they could have drugs in their system that could increase their speed, strength, and pain threshold. Not to mention that there's no guarantee whatsoever that the assailant will be unarmed, in my weight class, and with lesser or equal experience in fighting. Plus, this (hypothetical) ******* has brought violence into my home, and that leaves me with very little desire (and no obligation) to fight fair and honorably.

That brings me to armed combat. And put simply, the firearm is the fastest, surest, and simplest weapon I know, or own. With a shotgun, it doesn't matter if the assailant is an armed expert swordsman, a dedicated pugilist, or some thug with a club; unless they've got a firearm of their own, they're goin' down, and that's the happy ending we're lookin' for here when the innocent are threatened.

Now as you're reading this you're probably thinking "well this whole scenario is so far-fetched as to be ridiculous; what are the odds of that ever happening to someone?" Well, you'd be right, but what do I care about the odds? The remoteness of the possibility does not negate that IT IS A POSSIBILITY. Every day in this country (and in my area especially) there are people commiting violence against others. That's a threat that we all live with, no matter where we live, how much money we make, what we do for a living or what our belief systems and cultural values are.

The threat is real, and the fact is that I can meet that threat effectively with a $150 12-gauge and a $2 box of 00buck ammo means that I would be an utter fool not to make that choice and investment.

Now, would I ever want to shoot someone? No, most emphatically. I fully believe the police officer that told me "if you ever shoot someone...even if they're a total piece of ****, someone that needed to be put away...that'll be something you'll always have to live with. It'll never go away, and you'll never feel good about it unless you're a killer and a sicko yourself." I never, ever want to have to kill someone. Or shoot someone. Or even draw down on someone. ****, it'd be a beautiful world if I ever had to fear or anticipate any possibility of violence. But the state of this world isn't something I can choose, and however it pains me, I gotta make real plans against a real threat. As the survivalists say, "I plan for the worst and hope for the best."

And frankly, I weep for any culture that doesn't do the same. There will never be any free society where violence has been utterly banished. Facing the posibility of violence, as we all do, we should take it upon ourselves to be prepared to meet that threat should it manifest. Any other attitude, in my view, is wrong-headed, cowardly, and suicidal.

I do appreciate your thoughts, nabs, and I hope you can appreciate mine.

Interesting! lately Ole' Dixie has been getting quite a few emails asking for/about a specialized (?) home defense load for 12 gauge......something that would work in everything from their bird gun to one of these Rambo pistol grip guns. They want something that will bust the badguys a$$ good, light recoil, will not shoot through many walls.....and so on!
Now, I have been in the industry for 40 years and don't know how the solve all those problems......so I look at priorities!
To me, my first worry would be stopping the bad guy cold, no matter how heavy his clothes or how bad his attitude.......period!
But, the next priority would be recoil. Down the line I would worry about the load going through walls, etc.
I turned our fellows loose and they came up with an interesting load.
(1) 2 3/4" hulls so it would fit both 2 3/4" nad 3" guns.
(2) Unique powder for a low powered load with next to no muzzle flash......bad on eyes at night
(3) 10-#0 buckshot at 1000'/".....in a RP12 wad and no buffer.
(4) Low recoil even in lightweight pistol grip guns.
I like it! What do you all think about it?....I might put it in the line........James
(4)

I'd certainly like to try that load. The only reduced-recoil 00bk I've shot was pretty sweet, and I would have bought more by now but I haven't found it for a good price. And I hadn't even thought about muzzle flash in the dark; I guess I better try my shotgun at night sometime!

I'd recommend 2 3/4" 00 buck (#1 or #4 is OK as well). Skip the birdshot and slugs as well as any magnum loads. For home defense use I keep my Benelli M4 loaded with alternating loads of 00 buck and flechettes (my home walls are thick and the neighbors are a safe distance away). All my experience indicates that any choke setting is fine for short range defensive needs. Concentrate on learning instinctive point and fire shooting with both eyes open, shoot/don't shoot mental scenarios (and buy a couple DVDs to help with that) and training you and yours to be comfortable shooting from standing and kneeling positions as well as on your back as all fights eventually wind up on the ground and if you shoot from the floor and armed bad guy/guys will be shooting over your head (also learn to shoot both for the main mass of an intruder as well as their head -- if you come to the point where you have to shoot someone in defense there is only one goal and that is to kill them -- not scare them, not make them think twice but to kill them. It may sound harsh but that is the nature of the beast). A mounted high output (60 to 100 lumen) LED (not bulb) flashlight is a perfect companion to the home defense shotgun (Surefire and Inova are what I own and I power them with rechargeable batteries).

thanks to you all for these considered replies.
i suspect that our cultures are very different.
in the UK guns are very difficult to aquire legally.handguns are banned. legal owners like myself of rifles & shotguns do feel persecuted & believe that the police would confiscate them with the slightest reason.any perceived intent to use them in the manner suggested in the original post would result in them being taken from you & you facing arrest.

I can tell you from personal experiance that # 7.5 shot at 15 feet is fatal. The person was shot in the abdomen with one round of 1 oz birdshot and blead to death in a matter of minutes. Only a few pellets passed through his body completly and they did not have enough energy to pentrate the sheetrock behind him. He was shot with a modified choke rem 870. The pattern was about 6 inches. The trauma put him down immediatly.

I went through all this 10 years ago,or so,when we had hr race riots.
I have 7 1/2 shot in the left chamber and buckshot in the right.
Frank

thanks to you all for these considered replies.
i suspect that our cultures are very different.
in the UK guns are very difficult to aquire legally.handguns are banned. legal owners like myself of rifles & shotguns do feel persecuted & believe that the police would confiscate them with the slightest reason.any perceived intent to use them in the manner suggested in the original post would result in them being taken from you & you facing arrest.

Thanks for your own thoughts, Nabs. Apparently our cultures are VERY different! It's just hard to imagine that the police--those entrusted with public safety--would be against the public defending their own lives when they're endangered. Or maybe that's the whole problem, that an individual's personal security isn't ultimately left up to that individual, but rather relegated to a government official. :\ Man. I can see how you all might feel persecuted!

And if you'd care to, Nabs, I'd really love to hear a lot more of your perspective. How are guns viewed in the UK? Who can own them, and what kind can you own? What kind of hoops do you have to jump through to buy or import them? Any special laws about transport? What about the actual shooting, are there ranges or can you shoot as you wish on private land, or......? *pant pant*

I can tell you from personal experiance that # 7.5 shot at 15 feet is fatal. The person was shot in the abdomen with one round of 1 oz birdshot and blead to death in a matter of minutes. Only a few pellets passed through his body completly and they did not have enough energy to pentrate the sheetrock behind him. He was shot with a modified choke rem 870. The pattern was about 6 inches. The trauma put him down immediatly.

O_O

Dear heavens! I'm not even gonna ask; I'll just offer my condolences if you had to see that in person. That musta been about 43 kinds of traumatic.

If You're a reloader, Rock Salt makes a fine defense load. Just pick up some Morton's next time you're at the grocery store.http://www.frontiernet.net/~cuttysark/MISC/whistle.gif

Morton's Git 'er done-

Not to split hairs here, but I wasn't looking for a way to kill people entereing my home; I was looking for the best way to protect myself and my loved ones (and my property) without unduly endangering innocent bystanders.

Sure, there are other ways to protect those things. Here's some I examined.

If I were very large and intimidating and the criminal trespasser were a coward, I could probably frighten him away. But I'm 5'11 and 140lbs, and while I might be pretty strong for my size (rock climber and piano mover here) I don't think I could depend on my frame alone to frighten anyone.

There's a good chance the attacker wouldn't be a coward. I don't know how things are in the UK, but many (if not most) of the burglars and armed robbers in the US are drug addicts looking to finance their habit. Drug addicts aren't likely to be in their right mind, and as such aren't likely to be swayed by threats or reason. So assuming that scenario, of someone determined to threaten, harm, or kill myself or my family, I'd be limited to only a few options (and combinations thereof):

(1) call the police
(2) flee
(3) combat

The problem with option one is that I live in a rural area. I'd certainly want to call the police, but their response time would be many minutes longer than the number of seconds it could take the attacker to harm or kill someone. I'd better find a way to survive in the meantime.

The problem with option two is that while I'm a very fast runner, my fiancee isn't. I'm not gonna leave her behind.

That leaves number three as the most viable option, and leaves me with a few main categories of combat to consider.

(a) armed
(b) unarmed

Again, although I'm in good shape and have had some martial arts training, I don't fancy the chances of my 140lbs against someone bent on hurting me--especially when they could have drugs in their system that could increase their speed, strength, and pain threshold. Not to mention that there's no guarantee whatsoever that the assailant will be unarmed, in my weight class, and with lesser or equal experience in fighting. Plus, this (hypothetical) ******* has brought violence into my home, and that leaves me with very little desire (and no obligation) to fight fair and honorably.

That brings me to armed combat. And put simply, the firearm is the fastest, surest, and simplest weapon I know, or own. With a shotgun, it doesn't matter if the assailant is an armed expert swordsman, a dedicated pugilist, or some thug with a club; unless they've got a firearm of their own, they're goin' down, and that's the happy ending we're lookin' for here when the innocent are threatened.

Now as you're reading this you're probably thinking "well this whole scenario is so far-fetched as to be ridiculous; what are the odds of that ever happening to someone?" Well, you'd be right, but what do I care about the odds? The remoteness of the possibility does not negate that IT IS A POSSIBILITY. Every day in this country (and in my area especially) there are people commiting violence against others. That's a threat that we all live with, no matter where we live, how much money we make, what we do for a living or what our belief systems and cultural values are.

The threat is real, and the fact is that I can meet that threat effectively with a $150 12-gauge and a $2 box of 00buck ammo means that I would be an utter fool not to make that choice and investment.

Now, would I ever want to shoot someone? No, most emphatically. I fully believe the police officer that told me "if you ever shoot someone...even if they're a total piece of ****, someone that needed to be put away...that'll be something you'll always have to live with. It'll never go away, and you'll never feel good about it unless you're a killer and a sicko yourself." I never, ever want to have to kill someone. Or shoot someone. Or even draw down on someone. ****, it'd be a beautiful world if I ever had to fear or anticipate any possibility of violence. But the state of this world isn't something I can choose, and however it pains me, I gotta make real plans against a real threat. As the survivalists say, "I plan for the worst and hope for the best."

And frankly, I weep for any culture that doesn't do the same. There will never be any free society where violence has been utterly banished. Facing the posibility of violence, as we all do, we should take it upon ourselves to be prepared to meet that threat should it manifest. Any other attitude, in my view, is wrong-headed, cowardly, and suicidal.

I do appreciate your thoughts, nabs, and I hope you can appreciate mine.
dude that was some nice writing i like what you say phil in a box

I have decided after many years of counting on my .45 ACP for home defense, to switch to a shotgun as the primary weapon. I purchased the Wilson Standard model 12 ga. with 18.4" barrell, peep sights, light, and 6 + 1 capacity (image below).

Being one of the few Iowa farm boys not familiar with shotgun performance, I’ve done what all newbies do, read the articles for advice on which shells to use. Apparently anything from 7 ½ to 00 shell is identified as adequate for indoors defense. But when I tried some 7 ½ shot at 15 yards (my house is 50 feet long) at the range, I was certainly not impressed with the tiny.095 holes and the distribution…obviously a lot of .095 holes close together would do serious work, but at 45 feet, don’t think it’s a stopper (purely uneducated personal opinion).

So obvious next step was to get some .33 dia. TAP 00 shells (they ain’t cheap!) and hope nobody is driving by or neighbors are at home (again, purely uneducated personal opinion).

I’ve purchased a 100 I.P.S.C. practice targets (image attached) and plan on doing some testing with some 00, 2, 4, 6, and 71/2 shot at various distances to get a better idea of distribution over distance. I’ll start at 5 yards with 5 yard increments out to 50 yards (some home defense may take place outside). Some literature says to load 7 ½ for the first two shots and then 00, etc. etc., and as usual, there’s variation in the experts recommendations, as there is in this thread. There are a lot of parameters/situations to cover for home defense, so figure this test is necessary to determine what will work best to cover the range of problems I might face. After the distribution tests, I’ll need to do penetration tests, but that will probably have to wait until I’m back from Florida next May.

I plan on posting the results and ask what your opinions are on the results. I certainly realize .33 in. shot has advantages, but I also realize spread/distribution in high stress/chaotic situations also has advantages. So hopefully, it will be interesting and insightful……and I don’t hurt myself :p .

This is a copy of an email I sent to two of my sons re the selection of shotgun loads for home defense.

"I showed Tim the first of my distribution tests using 7 ½ shot and 00 buckshot and commented that the 7 ½ pattern at 5 yards looked reasonable, but that at 10 and 15 yards the distribution didn’t look like it was a “man stopper” to me. The 00 buckshot (“TAP” cartridge) looked good with all of the eight pellets (.33 in.) staying in the “A” kill zone even at 15 yards. I originally planned on also testing no. 2, 4, and 6 shot.

As it turns out, I’m not going to do any more distribution testing based on penetration test results I found on the web at the “Box of Truth” web site where they do a lot of various types of testing.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Based on their findings, the shotgun, in 0,00 and 000 buckshot, offers sufficient stopping power and while it penetrates multiple walls, it penetrates less that 9MM or .45ACP cartridges, and offers the advantage of a long gun being easier to handle accurately than a handgun. Anything less than the buckshot loads is an inadequate man stopper.

Here’s their “lessons learned” about shotgun loads penetration.

(note: the "boards referred to in following article are 3/4 inch sheet rock framed with a small space inbetween "boards". The test bench is shown on the web site listed above)

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'""

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_205&products_id=1423

http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=120_205&products_id=1423

Ralph,

Thanks, their price for Federal Tactical 00 is a lot less then I've been paying for the Hornady TAP 00. Picked up 100 to see how they compare. Their advertised shot distribution is very similar to what I'm getting with the TAP ammo.

Thanks again.

Dan

Ralph,

Thanks, their price for Federal Tactical 00 is a lot less then I've been paying for the Hornady TAP 00. Picked up 100 to see how they compare. Their advertised shot distribution is very similar to what I'm getting with the TAP ammo.

Thanks again.

Dan

Post your results with that Cylinder bore Wilson 870 when you get the Federal Tac-8 rounds in. The 8 pellet Fed. Tactical load moves out at 1145FPS. This is much slower than the Hornady Tap but more than enough for defensive use in a home setting. I suspect your will get tighter and more consistent results with the Federal round.

Post your results with that Cylinder bore Wilson 870 when you get the Federal Tac-8 rounds in. The 8 pellet Fed. Tactical load moves out at 1145FPS. This is much slower than the Hornady Tap but more than enough for defensive use in a home setting. I suspect your will get tighter and more consistent results with the Federal round.

I've been pleased with the TAP distribution. The "A" section on the paper target used measures 4" X 11" (see image in previous post) and it's my understanding represents the best placement to stop the person. The TAP 00 buckshot at 10 yards and 15 yards only had one pellet outside the "A" section, and both of them were just immediately outside.

To follow-up on the last post that contained images for TAP 00 buckshot at 5, 10 and 15 yards, here are the results of the 7 1/2 load at the same distances. I should comment that in order to obtain an image showing the pellet holes, I've marked each hole with a black marker, obviously making the holes much more "dynamic" than they actually are.

I've been pleased with the TAP distribution. The "A" section on the paper target used measures 4" X 11" (see image in previous post) and it's my understanding represents the best placement to stop the person. The TAP 00 buckshot at 10 yards and 15 yards only had one pellet outside the "A" section, and both of them were just immediately outside.

I find the roughly 8-9 inch pattern your cylinder bore throws at 45ft comparable to the minimum acceptable hunting pattern from a IM or Full at 25 yards. Such a 25 yard pattern would translate to a 15-18 inch pattern at 40 yards.

I find the roughly 8-9 inch pattern your cylinder bore throws at 45ft comparable to the minimum acceptable hunting pattern from a IM or Full at 25 yards. Such a 25 yard pattern would translate to a 15-18 inch pattern at 40 yards.

Looking forward to testing the Federal Tactical to see how it compares. For the longer distances performance you mention, one of my thoughts about "home defense" setups is should I be prepared to shoot at longer distances considering some of the action could take place outside the home?

But for strickly inside defense, the good news is that until the world realizes and appreciates my special talents, my income limits me to a 45 foot house :p

Folks

I don't know if this angle has been covered in any of the previous posts but don't deal with the thugs only to be done in by lawyers!

In an article written by Massad Ayoob many years ago I remember some advice he gave about getting through the aftermath of the shooting by being properly prepared before. This included:

1. Know your gun laws - Is it legal to keep a loaded weapon for defence of yourself? - If it isn't, figure out how you are going to get your weapon out of storage, unlocked and loaded as quickly as possible;
2. Making sure your doors and windows are locked;
3. Having a phone (perhaps even a cell phone) in your bedroom so you can call 911;
4. Call 911, even if there isn't any chance that police can arrive in time to catch the intruders - this establishes an official timeline and also serves as your "back-up";
5. Don't go looking for the people breaking in - goods are cheap - life isn't;
6. If you believe there is an intruder in your home, consolidate all those to be protected in one place (like your bedroom) and take steps to keep out the bad guys by locking or blocking the door;
7. If any of those under your protection can not be consolidated in your bedroom you are then probably justified in leaving your "sanctuary" to ensure their safety;
8. If you confront an intruder, do not make the mistake of assuming they are alone or unarmed or armed with clubs, knives or screwdrivers - they are in YOUR home and are there to rob you - at best -and will likely take steps to avoid being caught and sent to jail - either running away or attacking you;
8. As such, you MAY decide it is a good idea to warn the intruders that you have called the police and that they should leave immediately but for God's sake please don't do it unless you have a round in the chamber, the safety off and the gun pointed directly at the centre of mass with your trigger finger poised OUTSIDE the trigger guard - racking the slide MIGHT scare them off but it won't give you the option of shooting immediately in defence of yourself or your family if they react violently - don't try to be "sporting" by warning them you have a gun - remember, its the one you can't see who will get you;
9. If they move towards you, aim for centre of mass (you saw how little shot spreads at indoor distances) and shoot to stop the intruder(s) - repeat as necessary;
10. Ideally, all this should be done so that 911 can hear and record everything that is said and done, but carrying a phone in one hand and a shotgun in the other is not recommended!

"Castle Doctrine" and "Make-My-Day" laws not withstanding, courts expect us to act in a reasonable manner. It is reasonable to shoot to stop an intruder who you have a reasonable belief poses a danger to you or your family - it is not generally considered reasonable to shoot someone because they were fleeing your property after breaking in because they no longer pose a danger to you.

Don't survive a home invasion only to find yourself the victim of an elected official (like the District Attorney) looking to score votes in a "liberal" part of the country (including most cities) by making an "example" of you for your "vigilante justice"!

Birdshot for defense?

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24Oct07.html

Not that this hasn't already been beat to death, but I'm new here and this seems to be the best way to get to know everyone, by what they keep in their scatter!

I know it is entitled 12ga loads, but I'm going to diversify a little....

I do have multiple shotguns that I keep ready for home defense a Winchester 1300 20ga and a 1300 defender 12ga. The defender is all tac'ed out and loaded with Federal Classic 00 Buck, no question.

I recently took a new job which keeps me away 7 out of 14 days. My wife, as concerned about self defense as I am, wanted to learn how to shoot the 12. At 5'2" and 110 lbs the beast was a little too much for her. So I got her a 20ga. A little modification (barrel, forend, magazine) and we were good to go. We keep the mag loaded and no shell in the chamber. First 2 out of the magazine are Remington Express 1oz #4 shot. In case she missed or needed to keep shooting, the last 2 are Federal 3" #2 Buck. This is the shot that is packed with some other material to keep it tight after firing. These are also in the side-saddle on the stock.

If I get woken up in the middle of the night and have to get something out of the cabinet, its still going to be the 8+1 12ga and my Glock 23 in my back pocket. However that being said, the "little" gun does a pretty good job and the 3" Federals are nail drivers. I am interested in the actual pattern and penetration as compared to the 12, when I test it, ill put up some pictures.

As a retired l.e. officer ill add my two cents. Forget buckshot in your home, it will penetrate almost all common walls including dbl. walls between apartments and really not a great fight stopper. Go with 7.5 or 6 shot, at close range this will hit as solid mass of shot anyways. A look down the muzzle is very scary, ive seen it! Go with the larger chance of a effective hit. Pray You never have to use it, but practice at 5 to 15 yards out of any choke, You wont see much change. Hope this helps

As a new member I haven't yet read all of every post here but like the one about using bird shot only if attacked by birds.
I had a load that I made up years ago for an 18 1/2" barreled Stevens single-barrel that would have been real effective if ever used. I loaded the shells with the big buck shot, I forget the number, but the one that you stack 3, 1, 3 and then sifted #12 shot down into the spaces. I shot a cardboard box with this load once and there wasn't enough left of the box to start a campfire....always figured I'd put an intruder onto my neighbor's roof, but, thank goodness, never had too!
Dick C. (gatguy)

9 pellit buckshot

Found another one of these guns and had to buy it. On the way home I decided to pattern it. Here is the results.

Gun: Winchester 1300 20ga SpeedPump 28" barrel Imp. Cyl. Choke

First Shell: 2 3/4", 7/8oz, 7 1/2 Shot at 10 Yards
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8779/img1224hk2.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1224hk2.jpg)
The spread was about 6.5" by 6"

Second Shell: 3" 18 pellet Federal Classic #2 Buck at 10 yards
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4789/img1226ay7.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1226ay7.jpg)
The spread was about 6" by 5.5"

I guess the next test would be penetration. I still think that the 3" are going to be my choice to keep in the gun.

I forget who makes them, but there is a factory load out there that has birdish shot sizes available in a shell thats roughly half the size of a 2/34" shell. So in that Mossberg 500, which i believe holds 7+1, you can now get 14 + 1 in 'er. Kinda cool idea. You don't tear up your house too bad, and you can blaze away.

Those short shells won't cycle in any pump that I've tried them in including the Mossberg 500 or my 835 or my friends Win 97 clone. They will work in a single or side by side.

I use #5 turkey loads in my shotgun for home defense with a full choke. At the ranges you'd shoot inside a house their going to tear the heck out of anyone they hit and choke selection at ranges under 30 feet isn't going to make a hill of beans.

Like one poster said there's nothing like the sound of a pump shotgun being cycled. I worked in a State prison for a long time and talked to a bunch of folks that were on the wrong end of that equation and they pretty much agreed that sound was a good reason to exit a place they shouldn't be.

Maasad Ayoob is one of my personal favorites. So is Bill Jordan, US Border Patrol. Bill always said "Better to be tried by 12 than carried out by 6".

Most US legal jurisprudence dictates warning someone before using any force against them, lethal or otherwise. That having been said, make certain that you are able and willing to use lethal force immediately to protect yourself and your loved ones! I do not mean 5 or 10 seconds later - I mean in a fraction of a second should the conditions require you to do so.

Chamber loaded, target acquired, trigger finger at the ready.

As ghoulish as it might sound, conditions requiring the potential of destroying of another human being leaves no room for more than casual consideration for the well-being of innocent bystanders or even of loved ones! If you must shoot to stop another human being, or other wild animal to prevent harm to an innocent, that procedure becomes more important than the (hopefully) unlikely possibility that an innocent might become "collateral damage".

If not - then I see no reason to shoot in the first place!

No flames intended and I am not a cold cruel human being, if I or one of my loved ones are SERIOUSLY threatened, a stray shot is absolutely a possibility but would not stop me from using as much force as necessary to eliminate the threat. I will NOT shoot unless I can see the target (or a muzzle flash) and if shooting is required, I hope with all my heart that there is no collateral damage.

Back to the original question - at 5 or 10 feet birdshot is still a solid projectile.

My load of choice and the conditions are as follows.......

My Mossberg has an empty chamber, 6 rounds in the magazine, chamber cable lock installed with the key out of sight but in easy reach(grandchildren are around at times). 1st round is #4 shot and the next 5 rounds are 2-3/4 inch shells loaded with 10 #0 shot (.311) in front of 18 grains of Red Dot giving around 1100FPS. Thats 10 45 grain 30 caliber slugs. This load patterns at less than 2-1/2 inches at 15 feet. Choke matters not at this distance.

Believe me, I am not saying forget about innocents, but if the conditions are severe enough to take another human's life then there have to be risks involved.

Vic

Good points.

My question still lies in the type of shot. At self defense ranges, birdshot my still arrive at the target as a "semi-solid" projectile, but what happens when it hits the target? Now the each small pellet is going to rapidly loose energy individually. I still like the concept of big, heavy loads.

Now I have to decide what I am going to keep in my new 20ga mossberg cruiser with an 18" barrel. I'm worried about an increased spread with 10 less inches of barrel.

My wife uses a Mossberg 500 20ga 18.5" with a installed "youth stock".
Her load of choice is the Winchester 20ga 2.75" #3 buckshot.
At 30feet it keeps all 20 pellets on a 10" paper plate(paper plates are my target of choice when patterning buckshot loads for hunting too).
She use to keep the mag tube loaded with 2.75" 7/8oz #6-shot until the night when her springer was being chased up onto our deck by three timber wolves.
At 15 yards she dumped the lead wolf with THREE charges.
She said if it took three loads to kill/stop a 130lb wolf(legal here in Minnesota)she wanted a heavier load for improved stopping power.
Now if things are "going south" outside she grabs for her CAR-15.

My Mossberg 590A1 with Ghost-Ring sights,I had the barrel threaded for choke-tubes.
With a extended Kick's "Buck Kicker" Xtra-Full tube and Winchester 2.75" #1-buck my shotgun is capable out to 45-yards.
With a Remington Express 3" 00-buck load I can keep all 15 pellets on a paper plate inside 30 yards,so inside distances I feel totally confident with my choice of shotgun/load.
When camping or hunting our 12ga shotguns are loaded with "Tri-Ball"!
If you have never used it,it makes deer crumple and patterns with a Turkey choke extremely incredible!
This is the best load available for use outdoors when problems start at 100lbs+.

George

Interesting! Many should ponder on the post about are you really ready to shoot a human? Most would be better with a baseball bat.
Having said that...one should consider that distance all this might happen! Most situations are figured in feet instead of yards. One should also consider that heavy buckshot may well penetrated today's thin walls....who is in the next room?
Many will say this and that, how they would kill an intruder, etc. Pulling that trigger is a defining moment in your life. Some deep forethought is in order. I do believe that anyone one has the right to defend themselves and family....the only choice then is what to use.
The shotgun is traditional the choice. We do not need bockshot and slugs, but rather a #4 load will work hands down....what ever the gauge is.
You sure don't need seven shots! A simple chopped doube barrel is simple and easy to use. An unloaded gun is just a club! A handgun is for experts!
You will hear lot's of suggestions from those that speculate and have never had to pull a trigger. The main thing is what you have confidence in and what your brain will let you do. But....by all means keep it simple!
Regards, James

I go along with James...his points have been proven in real life many, many times. Very few windy ones have made any decisions or are equipped to handle a bad situation and even less of those who keep quiet ones have done the required work to prepare themselves.

The major problem with all the "sh**" talking is the perp who is about to waste you has already made the decision to do it...maybe has done it before...doesn't need to think...has learned or knows, for the most part, that 95% of the people he deals with won't drop the hammer even if they had a weapon or the time to do it, and you or your "significant others" are pissing your pants or screaming to add to the problem.

I've read all this trash talk, listened to its most of my life and seen, first hand, just what really happens in real life and/or read reports of the results of criminal encounters, fatal or otherwise. Even cops with training in deadly response will sometimes hesitate or fail to respond quick enough. It's one thing to shoot a target on the training field or range, run around in camos waving you toy and quite another to be surprised on the street, in your car or woke up from a deep sleep and be able to react...human physiology and brains don't work this way...most of this trash talk comes from watching too much TV or hanging around favorite watering holes and/or blowing smoke on forums.

I guarantee 95% of most of you walk around with your head up your azzz thinking about the fight you had with your old lady, your miserable kids, your worthless boss, lousy job, sh** for brains neighbors, hump for a brother-in-law who borrowed you shotgun and never brought it back, or you just walked out of a bar and are carrying a load and can't think at all. And if sh** starts to happen, even if you are carrying...which only happens if YOU happen to think about packing heavy before you set out to go get a six pack and a bottle of milk or quart of ice cream...you won't have time to to do anything except post facto...unless the perp is stupid and deserves what they get...be it a load in his pants...or less likely...a pine box.

For those who really want to CYA you need to wake up to the real worlk, learn up and examine the way you are training yourself to determine if the information your are being fed and the training you are doing is real or just hype, realize your limitations and work to resolve them and also understand that when the hammer drops you will probably be at a different location than where your weapons and family are. Remember we all work at some distance from our homes, the car is parked at some distance from where we work, we spend half or more of our daily time remote from any protective devices and our minds dwell on self protection only 5% or less in any 24 hour period. Basically...most people are victims waiting to happen and unless you live in a very rough neiborhood and have lived you whole life under pressure of victimization, you are not equipped to even begin to understand how to protect yourself or what to look for to deter problems happening.

Even the meanest, biggest, baddest around can be taken down by a 90 lb grandma who won't be a victim, so all you hairy legged he persons forget how bad you are and think about just how you would survive if dropped into the middle of Bagdad in nothing but your shorts and no shave.

'Njoy

Hard talk, but needed if you plan to survive! Do you, and your family, have a fire drill? A tornado drill? A flood drill? Smart people do, but have you had house invasion drill? A car jacking?
Have those home protection guns been feed tested and have they been shot enough for their use to be second nature?
All of this applies...not just discussing what to load them with. Let me tell you this...when it happens time will stand still in your mind when you do have to pull a trigger!
Regards, James

Up here we deal more with four-legged critters than two-legged predators.
These days I no-longer have to clear houses,been there-done that.


"Time stand still" That is when men die.

You must be able to react to the situation.

Children's rooms must be in your mind when you line up any shot.

Practice and dry runs with the family aid you in your planning so when the time comes it will be second nature.

Different geographic area's also dictate ammunition choices too.
Florida in January call's for a different outerwear than does Idaho/Minnesota/Maine.

My home has the closest neighbor 1.33 miles down the road.

Here it is 4-legged vermin instead of 2-legged that have us preparing our plans.

George

I had a lot of cops come into my gunshop thru the years and when the subject of pump shotguns came up they gave the following advice: yes, the sound may scare off potentials but, if you shoot, don't shuck 3 or 4 rounds at the guy....one will probably be the highlight of his day, and more could put you into a legal hassle. The old 'never shoot a burglar in the back' thing comes up and you could end up the aggressor real easy when some slick lawyer does you in front of a liberal judge and a bunch of bleeding-heart, tooth-fairy jurors!
Well, that's my take, over
Dick C. (gatguy) :D

I would stay far away from 3" shotshells for home use. The person who spoke of 7 1/2 shot was right in line with my thinking. To paraphrase Peter Hathaway Capstick, when a lioness went after a small elderly native lady she put paid to the lioness with the application of 2,000 grains of garden variety hoe to the top of the animal's head. A 12 ga load os 7 and 1.2s will stop anyone who breaks in and indicates that they are going to hurt you.

Wow.....three years later, this thread is still active. It seems forever ago that I got that gun and posted my question about home defense. How time flies.

Thankfully, in those three years I've only had one perceived threat on my life. It was a stressful event, but luckily it didn't progress very far. It's kind of a long and ugly story that I'm not prepared to tell here, but it ended fine; no shots fired, or even guns pointed. Tell ya what, though, I was glad to have my shotgun loaded and handy.

It's hard to describe the thoughts and feelings that I had at that moment with the gun in my hands. I didn't feel more afraid, but neither did I feel more confident. I felt a surprising amount of.....focus, I guess you could say. I was aware of how badly things could go and what a terrible thing might be required of me; and also aware that if I was to act, I'd have to be swift and sure.

I think one of the things that helped me keep it together was that I had my fiance and my brother there with me. I think I felt less fear because I wasn't alone, and I also was a lot more focused because I had two people there that I loved and cared about and needed to protect.

Like I said, thankfully things didn't get out of hand. It was just a memorable experience, and it confirmed to me that a shotgun is a good thing to have.

And my home defense solution is still the same; same gun fully loaded with 00bk beside my bed. Hopefully I'll never, ever have to find out how effective that combination may be, because I can't imagine anything more horrible.

Folks

I don't know if this angle has been covered in any of the previous posts but don't deal with the thugs only to be done in by lawyers!

In an article written by Massad Ayoob many years ago I remember some advice he gave about getting through the aftermath of the shooting by being properly prepared before. This included:

1. Know your gun laws - Is it legal to keep a loaded weapon for defence of yourself? - If it isn't, figure out how you are going to get your weapon out of storage, unlocked and loaded as quickly as possible;
2. Making sure your doors and windows are locked;
3. Having a phone (perhaps even a cell phone) in your bedroom so you can call 911;
4. Call 911, even if there isn't any chance that police can arrive in time to catch the intruders - this establishes an official timeline and also serves as your "back-up";
5. Don't go looking for the people breaking in - goods are cheap - life isn't;
6. If you believe there is an intruder in your home, consolidate all those to be protected in one place (like your bedroom) and take steps to keep out the bad guys by locking or blocking the door;
7. If any of those under your protection can not be consolidated in your bedroom you are then probably justified in leaving your "sanctuary" to ensure their safety;
8. If you confront an intruder, do not make the mistake of assuming they are alone or unarmed or armed with clubs, knives or screwdrivers - they are in YOUR home and are there to rob you - at best -and will likely take steps to avoid being caught and sent to jail - either running away or attacking you;
8. As such, you MAY decide it is a good idea to warn the intruders that you have called the police and that they should leave immediately but for God's sake please don't do it unless you have a round in the chamber, the safety off and the gun pointed directly at the centre of mass with your trigger finger poised OUTSIDE the trigger guard - racking the slide MIGHT scare them off but it won't give you the option of shooting immediately in defence of yourself or your family if they react violently - don't try to be "sporting" by warning them you have a gun - remember, its the one you can't see who will get you;
9. If they move towards you, aim for centre of mass (you saw how little shot spreads at indoor distances) and shoot to stop the intruder(s) - repeat as necessary;
10. Ideally, all this should be done so that 911 can hear and record everything that is said and done, but carrying a phone in one hand and a shotgun in the other is not recommended!

"Castle Doctrine" and "Make-My-Day" laws not withstanding, courts expect us to act in a reasonable manner. It is reasonable to shoot to stop an intruder who you have a reasonable belief poses a danger to you or your family - it is not generally considered reasonable to shoot someone because they were fleeing your property after breaking in because they no longer pose a danger to you.

Don't survive a home invasion only to find yourself the victim of an elected official (like the District Attorney) looking to score votes in a "liberal" part of the country (including most cities) by making an "example" of you for your "vigilante justice"!

I like to let you know for what I was told years ago.Kanuck has it right all the way. But you must make sure your life in in danger and the ones that you live with,as for your goods in your house are no reason to shot anyone. And if you do shoot some one you do it to kill and it depending on where you hit them . If you hit them in the right spot , you will kill them . But you do not and if it is a smart person they can try to sue you . Also I was told that if you use more then 3 shots on a person you over kill and it will show that your intensions was not to defend yourself but to just kill someone and will have a hard time in court to have it stand up. As for size shot it is like i read what everyone has writtien depend on ones choice and how far you will have to shot . you know if you are really close to some thing you can kill it with a #9 shot . It all depends where you shoot it. This is just my own thoughts and what I have learn in the past years. Just make sure your life is in danger orther wise it will not stand up in court.

I agree with what the poster just said with one small exception. You should never "shoot to kill" or tell anyone that you did. Obviously, the first stage in that part of the situation is that you DO NOT shoot to kill. You likewise never shoot to wound.

Police officers are trained to shoot to STOP THE THREAT. That is what any reasonable and prudent person should do in an armed confrontation. Stop the threat!! If you are forced to fire your weapon shoot until the threat is stopped. If the person is on the floor moaning and groaning you may, indeed, face lawsuits and malicious prosecution. But your goose will surely be cooked if you shoot him while he's on the floor wounded.
I am not an attorney and am not offering legal advice. Shame to have to say that, huh? This is solely my opinion about the topic. Regards; Al

I have used a shot gun in two on duty shootings and both were with 00 Buck. I was not impressed.:confused:
That said, for home defence I recommend #2 lead or BB lead. You can only consider the energy of an individual pellet when deceiding what shot to use. James, #4 would be the absolute smallest shot I would use, and then only in a building with very thin walls. I have seen the atopsys of shotgun killings. A contact shot is unbeleivable!!! The shot (any size) spreads out like a cloud through the body.:eek:

I know of a guy who had his left arm shot off with #6 bird shot at about 10 feet. that proved to me as what load to use for home defense. I 870 is loaded with #6 bird shot.

I have used a shot gun in two on duty shootings and both were with 00 Buck. I was not impressed.:confused:
That said, for home defence I recommend #2 lead or BB lead. You can only consider the energy of an individual pellet when deceiding what shot to use. James, #4 would be the absolute smallest shot I would use, and then only in a building with very thin walls. I have seen the atopsys of shotgun killings. A contact shot is unbeleivable!!! The shot (any size) spreads out like a cloud through the body.:eek:

I hate to be morbid, but may I ask what happened with the 00bk? Hearing that it didn't work very well was sort of like hearing God was a woman. Was it a big ol' nasty load or some tamed-down, low-recoil stuff?

About 8 years ago I got a Mossberg 500 for this exact reason. I did a bunch of research back then and got a couple of great books by Massad Ayoob: In the Gravest Extreme and Stressfire II. I got several other books but those had the most (and best IMHO) information that was applicable to me. I got the Mossberg Defender model with an 18.5 inch barrel, and rifle sights and left the shoulder stock on the gun rather than get a pistol grip that so many others like. I trained with it and later got the barrel modified with the Vang Comp system. It's like a modifed choke almost. I load it with Federal low recoil 00 buck with a couple of low recoil slugs handy. Why? because I live in one of the most dangerous cities per capita in the U.S. and I have brick construction outer walls (4 layers of brick).

You must be very careful where you aim 00 buck - even low recoil. I did these tests to verify it for myself. On the left is a "ceiling" 2x8 floor joists, with a 3/4" plywood floor, and wood paneling to simulate a floor covering. The other side is sheetrock. The whole arrangement is on its side. I shot 1 round of low recoil 00 buck through the floor and it penetrated through and cut a ripe cantaloupe in half out the other side.

The other pic on the right is a typical sheetrock wall (no insulation or wiring) using 2x4 studs and sheetrock. It again penetrated the wall and missed the cantaloupe. The second lower shot obliterated the ripe mellon. Pretty sobering!

The slugs are for when I WANT to penetrate something. Through my own testing, they will go through at least 3 2x8s. If someone is hiding behind a door or piece of furniture shooting at me, I can end the fight with that. If I lived in an apartment, I would seriously consider #4 buck or smaller, however they are difficult to find low-recoil unless you reload.

Phil,
We were required to carry 00 buck, unplated, std 9 pellet loads.
Both my shootings involved shooting through a car window.
The first was through a back window. One pellet made it past the head rest and caused a minor injury to the drivers neck. He and his passenger were armed with hand guns and just attemped to rob a party in a wheel chair. When myself and two other LEO,s tried to arrest them they got into their car and fled. They tried to run us all down and I was to busy getting out of their way to fire at them as they were comeing at me so I fired as they passed. A prusuit started and we eventuly took both into custody.
The second was through the passenger window of a Ford Ranger PU. The bandit had just shot five people (two dead, over 100 rounds fired) with a full auto AK 47 (illegaly altered) and was rearming and getting more ammo to go to war with us (cops) when I got a shot at his head as he poked it up from the drivers side of his truck. He was not aware I was there. As our eyes met I fired. The 9 pellets hit the window and caused them to spread more than they normaly would. Three of the pellets struck him full in the face and none penatrated his facial bones. The other six hit the side of a van parked next to him. He did go down and we were able to get to him and arrest him.
Had I had a patrol rifle things would have been much better in both cases.;)

If it has 3 1/2 inch capability, make sure you get those big shells.

First off nice gun choice, I love my mossberg so much. I put a pistol grip and a pistol grip foreend on mine so it's pretty compact.
I just use the Federal Slugs at wally world

I live in a pretty shady area of Kansas City, and living in this apartment for 4 months, I've already had to get it out twice, not had to use it though.. Sometimes these creaky pipes sound a little way too much like footsteps..

Phil,
We were required to carry 00 buck, unplated, std 9 pellet loads.
Both my shootings involved shooting through a car window.
The first was through a back window. One pellet made it past the head rest and caused a minor injury to the drivers neck. He and his passenger were armed with hand guns and just attemped to rob a party in a wheel chair. When myself and two other LEO,s tried to arrest them they got into their car and fled. They tried to run us all down and I was to busy getting out of their way to fire at them as they were comeing at me so I fired as they passed. A prusuit started and we eventuly took both into custody.
The second was through the passenger window of a Ford Ranger PU. The bandit had just shot five people (two dead, over 100 rounds fired) with a full auto AK 47 (illegaly altered) and was rearming and getting more ammo to go to war with us (cops) when I got a shot at his head as he poked it up from the drivers side of his truck. He was not aware I was there. As our eyes met I fired. The 9 pellets hit the window and caused them to spread more than they normaly would. Three of the pellets struck him full in the face and none penatrated his facial bones. The other six hit the side of a van parked next to him. He did go down and we were able to get to him and arrest him.
Had I had a patrol rifle things would have been much better in both cases.;)

Wild times, man. Yikes. Glad y'all made it through all right.

First off nice gun choice, I love my mossberg so much. I put a pistol grip and a pistol grip foreend on mine so it's pretty compact.
I just use the Federal Slugs at wally world

I live in a pretty shady area of Kansas City, and living in this apartment for 4 months, I've already had to get it out twice, not had to use it though.. Sometimes these creaky pipes sound a little way too much like footsteps..

You can fire slugs with that configuration?? Hats off to you, man; my wrists could barely take birdshot like that, haha.

First off nice gun choice, I love my mossberg so much. I put a pistol grip and a pistol grip foreend on mine so it's pretty compact.
I just use the Federal Slugs at wally world

I live in a pretty shady area of Kansas City, and living in this apartment for 4 months, I've already had to get it out twice, not had to use it though.. Sometimes these creaky pipes sound a little way too much like footsteps..

Do you live in an apartment? I hope your neighbors don;t mind lead slugs, It will go through a fair amount of wallboard without thinking twice about it. Have you shot your creation yet? After the first one, your wrist might think twice about the second one!

Check here for guys shooting slugs through a bunch of stuff.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Do you live in an apartment? I hope your neighbors don;t mind lead slugs, It will go through a fair amount of wallboard without thinking twice about it. Have you shot your creation yet? After the first one, your wrist might think twice about the second one!

Check here for guys shooting slugs through a bunch of stuff.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Yes times three, there are many more weapons in this apartment that will see action way before that mossberg. And I shoot it at least twice a week, and dig it. It's about to be converted back to normal mode for a Louisiana Pheasant trip on some land I have down there

I am confused by a couple of posts from a couple of former police officers:

As a retired l.e. officer ill add my two cents. Forget buckshot in your home, it will penetrate almost all common walls including dbl. walls between apartments and really not a great fight stopper. Go with 7.5 or 6 shot, at close range this will hit as solid mass of shot anyways.

You are the first person I've ever heard that suggested 00 buck was not a good fight stopper, but offer no explanation. Police training facilities, writers (yeah, I know, grain of salt), police issue, my own testing, all suggest 00 buck would be a great stopper (over-penetration is another issue, I'm just trying to understand the statement about stopping power).

And another gentleman said:
We were required to carry 00 buck, unplated, std 9 pellet loads.
Both my shootings involved shooting through a car window.
The first was through a back window.... The second was through the passenger window of a Ford Ranger PU... He did go down and we were able to get to him and arrest him.
Had I had a patrol rifle things would have been much better in both cases.)

But previously you had said:
I have used a shot gun in two on duty shootings and both were with 00 Buck. I was not impressed.
That said, for home defence I recommend #2 lead or BB lead.

In this case, you shot through a car window (something a rifle or slug would have improved upon, like you said), but I don't understand why you would recommend birdshot instead. It seems to me that if you had used the buckshot in a normal instance it would have worked better than birdshot, and in the instance of shooting through a car window (twice) it would not have worked at all. In fact, you said the fight was over after the one shot - sounds like a one-shot stop.

Could you guys help me to understand these baffling recommendations?

I'd guess shooting through auto glass, within your own home, would not be a common occurance. Jim?