Where are the Special Forces in their objectives today?

My recollections, during my short military carreer in the early 50s, I encountered the Special Forces while training in Ft Benning, Ga.

I was told at that time that they were a new unit, the brain child of President Eisenhower. It seems that during the D-day invasion, the allies were unable to utilize the European anti Nazi underground the way they had hoped, on account the underground was unorganized and very suspicious. Had the undergound been able to create a number of diversions, the invasion might have gone a lot smother.

Special Forces were to be a solution to future such problems. All members of the unit were to be good at two or more languages, understand deplomacy, understand military tactics, be able to live with and practice any unusual customs and eating habits of various peoples, be able to work alone and undercover, and have a lot of other skills I can't remember. They seemed quite intellectual.

One thing for sure, the new Special Forces Unit was not popular among the traditional old Regular Army Military personnel, or the elite airborn units either.

For one thing, at that time the Special Forces never marched. They did not have a "uniform of the day". They did not have close haircuts or much "spit and shine". They did have a lot of exercise and rigid training. They dressed and acted with the customs of others and ate stange things, like raw insects.

Old Master Sergents and brass and professional solderts might get upset every time they saw those guys with their unorthadox unmilitary practices. The fact that this new unit was not just another group of hard elite fighters like Commandos or Rangers or Seals seemed not to get through.

Some years later, after Eisenhower was gone, I ran into a newly trained Special Forces Private. He did not look at all like the guys I remembered. He walked in a most traditional military marching manner, with a most military haircut and military presence, I had difficulty thinking he could ever operate undercover behind the lines.

Has that group really changed so much that they are now pretty much another trditional elite unit or what? Anyone question my memory, anyone know how that group evolved?

I saw an editorial the other day in which the writer suggested such a flexable group, to live and work with the back country groups of the 'stan countries, where all the trouble seem to be these days, and I thought, hey, thats what the original Special Forces was for. Did that unit get all caught up in rigid military tradition, that they are no longer to perform their original mission?

(That ought to get a bit response from any Green Berets out there)!

Thanks, guys...

I worked with some Green Beenies in Somalia in 1993. Every one of them was extemly professional, and what I mean by professional is that they knew their job darn well. None of them were "poster children" for the spit and sit crowd, they were those that do type soldiers. Hard for a Marine Sniper to admit this, but they were some of the finest operators I've ever worked with, and I've worked extesively with Force Recon, S.E.ALs, and other elite warriors. So I got to say props to the Green Beret, ya'll should have been Marines!

Thanks for your response, Warmutt. At the time I met the Special Forces, I thought they were being regulated to perform something like "Lawrence of Arabia". (Except a bit better than the movie).

I guess your right, T-bird, I am asking a question. So I best state that question so it can be answered.

The question?

There can be no doubt that "Special Forces" are a crack unit. But are they able to perform the diplomatic, semi-political, semi-miltiary mission as General Eisenhower had hoped?

Oh I see what your asking cannonballmount. In my opinion NO! No branch of the military could do that mission 100%. I will say this tho, the Green Berets are in a unique position to sway the overall political outcome of hostile situations, as long as they're given the resorces to get the job done.

(IE) if Joe Spit, the leader of the tall-hump camel clan needs 200 bails of alfalfa to feed his tribes stock of persian camels through the cold-winter, and Capt America, leader of the Green Beenies, is able to get on the sat phone, and get a C130 drop of the needed material. Then I'll bet Joe Spit will look like a big man in front of his people, which will make him a whole lot more likely to work for Capt America in the future. So when Capt A says "you know Joe I'd really like to see Flea Bag, the leader of the small hump camel clan, get his comeupins for blowing up the M.F.A feed store in Home town U.S.A." "Oh by the way they're the nice folks who sent you that fine feed last year when ya'll really needed it." I bet Joe Spit will scratch his beard for awhile and say "you know that Flea Bag ain't never done nuttin to help me, O.K Cap'n A I'm with you". Just my opinion, and as a disclaimer I've never studyed Political Science so my opinion isn't based on anything, but hillbilly logic!

Well it has been 22 years since I got out of the Army, But I know about then. Alot has changed since then. Talking to the young family members who are in now, ALOT has changed. During my 3 years I made special forces and was brothered into the 82nd Airborne. I was trained at Fort Benning for jump training. I also trained at Fort Bragg for Scout-Sniper right beside the Green Beret's. Same people, We were all special forces. When on base we were expected to behave in normal military fashion. Dress in full bdu's and all the rest. When on op's we wore pretty much what ever the locals would wear. When we cut into 2 man teams for the "hunt" Full camo complete with Ghillie suit. Most were cross trained in more than one mos. I was cross trained in demolitions and long range recon. I speak German and spanish as well as english. Spanish is easy, german very hard. I would like to believe the special forces of today are even better than then. I know we could be sent anywhere in the world at a minutes notice and
usually would work with 3 two man teams to eradicate whatever vermin needed it. It was quite a life. Kind of made me wonder when they took the 82nd into the gulf states to help with evacuation. I think they should have sent these finely trained men to Iraq to help out there. But it is not for me to question why,,, Only to do or die. Seems like I heard that before somewhere. God Bless Steve

There is a lot of information coming out, here.

I refer back again, to the movie, "Lawrence of Arabia", not that the motion picture could have been that accurate, but it did point out a few things.

The Major, first sent as Arab advisor, by the plot of "Lawrence of Arabia", never really comunicated with his ward, he ever tried to make them replacements for his home unit he was so proud of. Nothing really wrong with that pride, but he was failing his mission.

Lawrence gained respect by giving respect, gained trust, and realized the capabilities of the Arabs, what they could do and what they could not do.

Aside from the movie, Lawrence really did utilize an effective camel calvary, in effective underground activities.

T-bird mentioned Ho Chi Minh, and how we utilized him in our war with Japan, and we all know that stories next Chapter. That should serve to remind us not to befriend these people, then forget them once the mission is served.

An added note, something personal with me. I'm concerned with this countries relationship with the Philippines, Formosa, and South Korea. Are we keeping these hard won friends?

Interesting point cannonballmount. We do have a tendency to use and loose our former allies once we perceive that we have no further use for them. I suppose we will do the same thing in Afganistan when wev'e accomplished our goals, and enough time passes.

Historically speaking, here in America, our own Govt and the British Govt were both quite effective at using one tribe of Native Americans to fight against anouther tribe. Utilizing an indigenous fighting force to accomplish your military objectives just makes good sence. They know the terrain, they probably have fought against your enemy before, and hence know how they fight, and it doesn't use up your own troops. It just takes a highly capable, and persuasive individual to capitalize on pre-exsisting feuds amoung those two groups. So with that in mind;I think that if a Special-Forces group were to drop into an area and establish rapport with the local by providing needed-medical treatment, food and other necessaties that a group of individuals need. Then you would be able to develop a fighting force to use against your enimies.

I don't think the early U.S. and British Isies gave the Indians a lot of gifts to win confidence, they just made weapons available for the natives to buy.

Now that you mention it, I think it was Davy Crockett himself that worked and fought for and with the Indians during the War of 1812.

During Davy's years serving in the National House of Rep's he was ever ready to take up those Indians causes with whom he had served, as well.

I guess Davy Crockett was an early "Special Forces" type solder who later, never later forgot his combat friends.

Anyone who has never read Davy Crockett's autobiograpy really ought to pick up a copy to read.

He really did meet the later General Eisenhowers image of "Special Forces", in my book.

Cool cannonballmount I'll do that. Thanks for the info on the book.

First Ike didn't start the SF. Roosevelt did when he hired Col Bill Donovan to head the OSS. The OSS airdropped teams into occuiped Europe and Pacific to gather intel, recruit, train and lead the organized resistance. The were disbanded after the war and the CIA then took up the intel task.

President Kennedy is the one who started SF up for Vietnam as advisiors. There are 5 primary missions of SF, Unconvential Warfare, Direct Action, Special Reconnaisse, Foriegn Internal Defense and Counter Terrorism. There are 5 active SF groups (1st @ Lewis, Wa, 3rd and 7th at Bragg,NC, 5th at Campbell, Ky and 10th at Carson, Co. 1st and 10th both have a BN overseas in Okinawa and Germany) Then there are two NG SF groups the 19th and 20th. All the Groups are currently engaged in and out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Phillippines. Army Special Forces the Green Berets have seen service in Southeast Asia (Vietnam), Panama, Somilia, Hati, Southwest Asia (GW1), Afganistan, Iraq and Phillipines.

As for me I entered the Army 22 years ago and received my Green Beenie in 84. Orginally started as a 18C -Engineer/demolitions expert and crossed over into Operations and Intelligence. Became a Army Combat Diver in 85 (hence my login). Deployed to Hati, Kuwait, Iraq (still here on my thrid rotation) and spent 6 years in Germany. I speak German and Arabic. Now my oldest son is getting ready to go to jump school and SFQC (he got selected from SFAS).

http://www.hunt101.com/img/328095.JPG

But to answer your question is SF being utilizied effectively within their mission requirements. Most definitily.


CD

How come you ain't wear'n your Marlin cap?

Strange sunglasses too combat diver! And we thought we looked cool wearing "oakly's"

Didn't get the cap til after the photo was taken.

CD

Thanks for your input, Combat Diver.

Your input is important to me. The "net" tells me that there was a unit of Special Forces called "Psychological Warfare", in 1952, but they were stationed at Ft. Bragg, not Ft. Benning. I'm certain there was a unit of Special Forces at Ft. Benning, out in Chattahoochee Swamp, living of the land around 1953 or so.

These guys were intellectual multilingual types. In those days it was acceptable for "nurds" to become "warriers". The strange "new left" was not at any college campus. Thats sort of where these guys were. Grad school types all.

After reading your post I had to look them up. But I still don't know much about them, except like all grad school types, they seemed a bit above all the spit and polish. (Or so they thought.)

I read nothing about them at the time, I just saw them and we talked about them.

I comes up now because there seems to be renewed interest in the "diplomat first, solder second" Special Forces individuals, that can work alone some of the time, outside a chain of command much of the time, but in a combat unit as required, with extensive knowlege of tactics.

Newspapers are runnung articles now, about there being a need, but do they know this is one of the traditional missions of Special Forces? Is it still one of the missions of Special Forces? If so, someone with more knowlege of the operation needs to inform whoever is demanding such a unit, that one already exists.

There is Special Forces and Special Operations, which allot of people think they are the same which they are not. US Army Special Forces are recognized by our head gear the Green Beret. We are the only ones with that head gear. The only others are those SF guys in Army Special Operations Command-CAG (formerly known as Delta). The Rangers (heavily armed light infantry) are also under USASOC and have a typical commando missions ie airfield seizure. The Rangers now wear the Tan Beret. The Psy Ops and Civil Affairs BNs are also under USASOC. They have different missions and are not generally war fighters ie trigger pullers. We also have a rotary wing Task Force (TF-160) which supports us. All others wear the Maroon (Airborne) Beret.

The Air Force has their Combat Controllers/ParaRescue and Air Wings with the AC-130/MC-130, MH-53 and MH-60 helos. The Navy has the SEALs and Special Boat Squadrons which support the SEALs. The Marines are the last with their Special Operations teams.
All services Special Operation forces then fall under the US Special Operations Command (USSOCOM)
Each element has their own special capabilities that they bring to the commander. There is a ton of info out there.

CD

Like I said cannonballmount, they know their stuff, even if Combat Diver did place the my old group, the SOC/MEUs, last!

No offense Warmutt, just the way I listed them. Each has a special capablitiy that they bring to the table.

CD

Now that I have the attention a a few guys with experience, can this country phase in Special Forces advisors within the 'stan counties, and phase out the regulars?

An honest opinion, can it work?

My own opinion, and I was a "standin' in line" regular, is that in the beginning "Special Forces" advisors were working advances in Viet Nam in the early years, but political pressure for a quick conclusion turned the whole thing into a nightmare. (One which, I might suggest, our guys won at the "Tet" Offensive, but the advantage was lost when Washington called a retreat, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.)

Can we do it right this time? Can friendly "Special Forces" advisors maintain diplomatic and friend winning advice to villages in the vast "Gobi" desert? Bring peace and prosperity to the wilderness?

Can they is always a hard question. They have done a spectacular job. They are doing a fantastic job. What will they do in the future?
My son is currently going through special forces training. If you want to see what he has done look to earlier posts here, he spent 15 months in Iraq before he started training for SF. In the initial testing to see if he could get in, I talked to him the day he finished the physical testing, he said it was an easy day, they only ran 18 miles with their 70lb packs that day. Of the 450 that started 200 finished the month long testing. Now that he is in they have done multiple test, 5 weeks in the field eliminated a few. Currently in SEER training, I understand the testors can only break small bones during interigation, to see if they make it through. Then they have to do the classes for their respective field within special forces and launguage school. All in all I can say they will be the best trained soldiers in the world.

ZZZZ I think I was tired, thanks RD

"All in all I can't say they will be the best trained soldiers in the world."

Randy,

I think you meant to say "All in all I can say they will be the best trained soldiers in the world."


Cannonball,

Remember that SF where the first ones into Afghanistan and Iraq and we are still there 24/7. Will we replace all the regular troops here that's a political question. Nuff to say we are committed for the long haul. Allot of stuff I can't comment on do to Operational Security you understand.

CD

SS...

Thanks for the update on your son! God Bless him and all the others.

NEWS RELEASE from the United States Department of Defense
>
> No. 1127-05
> IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> Nov 01, 2005
> Media Contact: (703)697-5131
> Public/Industry Contact: (703)428-0711
>
> Secretary of Defense Approves Marine Special Operations Command
>
> The Secretary of Defense approved a joint recommendation by U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and the Marine Corps to
> create a Marine special operations command as a component of USSOCOM.
>
The Marine Special Operations Command (MARSOC) will enhance Marine Corps and USSOCOM interoperability and provide USSOCOM greater
> flexibility and increased capability to fight the war on terrorism.
>
> The MARSOC will be organized in three subordinate elements - the Marine Special Operations Regiment, the Foreign Military Training Unit and the Marine Special Operations Support Group - with an authorized strength of approximately 2,600 Marines. While an activation date for the new command has
not been determined, Marine Brig. Gen. Dennis J. Hejlik has been selected as its first commander.
>
> The mission of the MARSOC headquarters will be to organize, man, train and equip Marine Special Operations Forces. The command's
> subordinate units will provide training to foreign military units and perform specific special operations
> missions. The command will also have the capability to provide
> intelligence,
> logistics and fire support coordination to joint special operation
> task forces.
>
> MARSOC headquarters, the Foreign Military Training
> Unit and the Marine
> Special Operations Support Group will be stationed at Camp
> Lejeune, N.C. The
> Marine Special Operations Regiment will also be headquartered at
> Camp Lejeune with
> an additional element stationed at Camp Pendleton, Calif.
>
> [Web Version: http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2005/nr20051101-
> 5027.html]
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> http://www.defendamerica.mil

5th SF group the best soldiers I ever served with.

Speaking of an earlier post regarding the contention that our OSS worked extensively with Ho Chi Minh...

"...In China (WWII) OSS also organized and trained guerillas and conducted fairly extensive operations against the Japanese in support of the Nationals (Kuomintang), but OSS had little success coordinating with the communist Chinese. As mentioned previously, OSS did have a few teams in Indochina, but it was just a small effort."

"From OSS To Green Berets," Col. Aaron Bank, U.S.A. [Ret.], Simon & Schuster Publishers.

According to Col. Bank, founder of the U.S. Special Forces, very little work was done with Ho Chi Minh.

As to recruiting soldiers for S.F., Col. Bank made it explicit that they wanted either Airborne or Rangers as applicants, who were intelligent, in great physical shape, and also spoke another language other than English.

Anyone here -- other than the S.F. operators who've already posted -- wanting to read about the history of U.S. Unconventional Warfare warriors, should start with Col. Bank's book.

I was U.S.A. '59-'61, and ran into some Rangers, but don't recall any Special Forces operators. Those lads didn't hang around with "legs," at least when I was in.

FWIW. L.W.

Combat Diver,

I reckon it would be possible we crossed paths. I was assigned to the compound at Ft. Lewis and of course at Panzer Kaserne.

Went to a few classes and functions at JFKSWC.

That was then.

Blind Old Man,

Its possible we've crossed paths and walked the same ones, never at Lewis but did spend time in Stuttgart.

CD

I believe my time at 1st SF, 1/10, and the 7th SOSC was the most enjoyable even with the challenges.