Hi,
I'm from Edmonton Alberta, and have seached a bit of this forum and it seems great, but I have a couple questions.

I want a rifle that I can use to shoot gophers on the weekend, put holes in household items and school books but also have the ability to help me to competitions at 500 yards and with some luck maybe a bit farther.

From my searches I think a Savage with accutrigger and heavy barrel would be a good starting point, not sure on the glass though.

Also I dont know what caliber. 308 seems like it would do the trick and not get blown around too much.
But then the 22-250 seems like it would be better as its velocity is much higher. but I dont know if it will get blown around in the wind.

Around here its hardly every calm, always seems to be a 4-10 km breeze.

I live ina condo, so reloading isnt really an option right now anyways. So I have to take into account that rounds for hte 22-250 are cheaper.

But I have read that the 22-250 is a hot round, and even with a heavy barrel will I have to worry about letting it cool between shots? I mean its fun to get witha couple buddies and put a few holes in a text book, or see how many sheet of plywood we can shoot through, or shooting them blocks of ice is fun too. Just need to know if I have to worry that after 4 shots in 5 minutes will be bad or not.

Basically I am new, but not new to shooting, but still dont know much at all.

Thanks for any info :)

I'd suggest a .223 with a fast twist barrel. Savage makes them with a 1 in 9" twist which can stabilize the heavier bullets in the 60 - 70 grain range. They'll beat a .22-250 in the wind. A .223 is cheaper to shoot than a .22-250 or .308, and if you're not handloading, ammo costs add up fast in Canada.

A question. If you get out in a pasture with several hundred gophers within range, can you hold yourself to 4 shots in 5 minutes? :D

Bye
Jack

I'd suggest a .223 with a fast twist barrel. Savage makes them with a 1 in 9" twist which can stabilize the heavier bullets in the 60 - 70 grain range. They'll beat a .22-250 in the wind. A .223 is cheaper to shoot than a .22-250 or .308, and if you're not handloading, ammo costs add up fast in Canada.

A question. If you get out in a pasture with several hundred gophers within range, can you hold yourself to 4 shots in 5 minutes? :D

Bye
Jack


so the 223 will be better for 500-800 yards then the 22-250?

I will be using factory loads, for the time being anyways.

I will try my best to hold myself, but I usually with one or two buddies and we take turns, so it slows me down some, but sometimes i go with the gf and switch between me and her shooting.

The heavy bullets are a handloading proposition as far as I know. Russell Sports in Calgary doesn't list any loads in their on-line catalogue. They do list FMJ .223 UMC at $6.99 a box on page 69.
http://www.russellsports.com/

A comparison with a 10 mph wind at 500 yards.
.223 55 grains @ 3240 fps - 39" drift
.223 69 grains @ 3000 fps - 31.5" drift
.22-250 55 grains @ 3680 - 30.5" drift
.220 Swift - 55 grains @ 3900 - 26.9" drift
The Swift in this example is handloaded to the MAX with a Hornady V-MAX bullet.

Don't use the FMJ stuff on gophers. It doesn't expand and it does ricochet.

Bye
Jack

so a 55 grain 22-250 seems like the best then. and I am sure with hand loads both the 223 and the 22-250 could have less drift right?

x, I was going to disagree with Jack (and I know he's more experienced) and suggest a .223 shooting 40 grain pills. I shoot this in Wyoming regularly, just a tad south of you, eh, and the wind blows. Out to 400-500 yards, it's doesn't move like the old wives tell, and you can see the shot with the smaller bullet. I hold velocities to 3500...you might want to kick it up a notch.

But then....you wondered about 800 yard shots!!??? You gotta pick, man!

For that, I'd defer to the .300/378 Weatherby crowd. It's designed for this, but I don't figger it's much fun to shoot!

The .22-250 will do slightly more than the .223, can take a bit more speed, but you lose sight picture at the shot, if you care.

A 40 grain V-MAX doesn't drift that much more, 44.3 " at 500 yards with a 3500 fps Vm (Velocity, muzzle). Wind speed is less close to the ground and official anemometers are 12 (?) feet up. I suspect the math is right, but the wind isn't as strong as we think it is.

An old story. When they first started using the .300 H&H in 1000 yard competition back in the 1930's, it had considerably less wind drift than predicted, compared to a .30-06. This was attributed to the wind at altitude effect, although I wonder if bullet selection played a part. I don't have the ballistic coefficients handy, but the old 150 grain .30-06 flat base bullet wasn't much for range, as the U.S. Army found out the hard way in WW I. Both the .303 and 8mm outranged it badly. On the other hand, the U.S. 175 grain boat-tail was pretty good, even by today's standards. So, using Sierra's B.C. numbers, and the U.S. Army load at 2700 fps, not the current 2900 fps for a .30-06 vs. the 300 H&H with the 175 grain handloaded to 2900 fps, we get a mid range height of 195" for the .30-06 and 110" for the .300 H&H. Calculated wind drift at 1000 yards is 151" for the .30-06 and 85" for the .300 H&H.

I wasn't too impressed with the 40 grain V-Max in my old .222. It seemed that too many gophers got back down their holes once the range got out past 200 yards. The 50 grain SX bullet can spatter them out past 250 yards and the 50 grain V-Max did OK too. The 40 grain V-Max might be OK if you drive it faster with a .223 or .22-250.

A point to remember is that a .223 with a 1 in 9" twist can stabilize heavier bullets than a .22-250 with a 1 in 12" twist.

Some people do shoot the .308 at 1000 yards, like in the Palma Match. They use 28" or longer barrels and loads than you don't want to know about. The 6.5-284 is much more popular for 1000 yard matches that aren't restricted to certain calibres. Less recoil and better ballistics.

You could go whole hog and get a .220 Swift. It's still the champ, 70 years later. Old Bob Milek freely admitted he burnt the barrel out of one in an afternoon, when he got carried away in a prairie dog town.

Bye
Jack

Thanks, Jack, that's the first reasonable explanation I've seen on why wind drifts aren't what the manuals say. I'm a math guy and this drives me crazy, but I got over it! I do blow up dogs nicely well beyond 300 yards regularly, with the V-max's...but have never held more than a few inches at most. My partner calls while I shoot, and vice versa. When I told him that the littler bullets would be a problem, he laughed. And he was right. I can tell NO difference in shooting 40's instead of 50/55's due to range, drift, or impact...except in noticeably lighter recoil which allows you to enjoy watching your hit quite often. I can't explain it. It just is.

Thanks, Jack, that's the first reasonable explanation I've seen on why wind drifts aren't what the manuals say. I'm a math guy and this drives me crazy, but I got over it! I do blow up dogs nicely well beyond 300 yards regularly, with the V-max's...but have never held more than a few inches at most. My partner calls while I shoot, and vice versa. When I told him that the littler bullets would be a problem, he laughed. And he was right. I can tell NO difference in shooting 40's instead of 50/55's due to range, drift, or impact...except in noticeably lighter recoil which allows you to enjoy watching your hit quite often. I can't explain it. It just is.

Why not send him the other direction with the 6.5spc or 308 winchester. Wouldn't these be even more effective at those ranges?

x,

I would look for something bigger than a 22 to reduce wind drift. Maybe a .243 win., .25 or even a 260 Rem. with a heavy 26" barrel.



Jack,

Could you do drift calcs for these?

How about one of these special ordered in 260 Remington:

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/40-x/model_40-XB_KS.asp

Hello,
I shot long range matches for several years, heart attack slowed me down a bit, and used the 308 1/12 twist, 30", Krieger barrel w/ Rem. 40X action, Jewell Trigger and found the rifle well suited for all matches out to and including the 1000 yard mark. Still today think it is a hard rig to beat overall with the 155 Sierra Palma or even used the Sierra 190's for good wind bucking, but can tell you that later on built a 22-250 w/ 8 twist, 30"Krieger Barrel and can honestly say that it gave nothing away to the 308 w/ the 155 bullet out to and including the 1000 yard mark. What I did not tell you was the weight of the bullet-80 Grain Sierra Match Bullet.
Have shot some very good prone scores w/ micrometer peep sights with this combo at 1000 yards and used about the same wind adjustment as I would w/ the 155/308. Hardly any recoil, low muzzle blast, less expensive to shoot and found barrel life to be near the 3000 round level. Not bad.
Just a suggestion for your consideration.
dsiteman
Favor Center!!

sniper's use 7.62 x 51 a.k.a. 308 win. to engage targets @ 800 meters and beyond

Have you ever considered a 257 Roberts, I built one with a 28" #5 light weight varmit barrel with a 1 in 9 twist to shoot 120 grain bullets at 3200 FPS, for 500 meters. The 257 is real versitile and you can drop you bullet down to 55/65 grains or go all the way up to around 120 with factory loads. So if you need the bullet wieght to buck high winds or just a light varmit killer it gets you there and back. The only problems that I see are that 257 ammo can be hard to get depending on location, It has a tendency to burn the chamber throat out after a while. This is hurried by greater velocities. Factory Ammo is a loaded on the light side(a hold over from days gone by). however they are making +p ammo now. I would check for avalibilty in you area.

I know you can buy these! Howa 1500. Mine is .308. I would buy more if I wasn't addicted to Mil. surplus!